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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:00 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
If he did not change choosing the DEs over Lily, then Lily can hardly have been important to him. But she was. That is canon. To assume Deship was more important to Snape at the time of the break up is to assume Lily was not as important to Snape as being a DE. Which means Snape did not love Lily at that time and in the next 2 years in school and when he actually joined the DEs and when he was one for some time. Then suddenly, out of the blue, he is begging Voldmeort, coming to Dumbledore because he loves Lily. He did not care enough for her when she was his best friend; when he did not care for her in the next 2 years; when she was not important when James and Lily became a couple; then to say that he cared so much that he came to Dumbledore thinking he would be killed in order to warn him or ask Voldemort to spare Lily's life, at the risk of getting killed by him does not make sense IMO.
I think this simplifies things too much. To say the DE's were more important to Snape and that he didn't really love Lily are two different things, IMO. I think Snape did in fact love Lily, but not in the way that she needed. A person can love someone, and believe they love that person, but it may not be enough or the right kind of love that the other person needs. Now whether that love is true is a whole different debate. I say this because this does happen a lot in real life, which is why people break up. Now in Snape and Lily's case, Snape was hanging around people who didn't like Lily. Even if they weren't planning on becoming DE's, they were people who practiced Dark Magic, inflicted it on others, and they were racists who thought people like Lily were below them. All of this is already a big problem. I would say that Snape moved on from Lily after 5th year, as we see him being a dedicated DE. But as we see later, he never really got over her. (And this happens in real life as well.) Snape ends up risking his life when he finds out that Lily's life is now highly threatened, which wasn't really the case back in school. And there's also the factor that Snape knew that if she did end up dead, it would be partially his fault. All of this is the reason why Snape did what he did.

Quote:
But if I take Lily's words as a conclusion of wanting out of this friendship and using Snape's fascination with the dark arts and his friendship with Avery and Mulciber to end it then it makes sense to me personally. Lily's acceptance of Snape's fascination with the dark arts and her friendship with him, in spite of knowing that he called others of her birth by a racist name is otherwise not understandable because her outrage is not impressive since she did not take it up with Snape in a similar manner (ending the friendship) when he called another muggleborn by the same name IMO.
This is something else that happens in real life. As I've said many times on this forum before, there are people who do stay in a relationship with someone who looks down on their background. It's not good, and its not healthy, but there many reasons why a person would stay in such a relationship. Maybe they love the person too much, or maybe they're afraid to let the person go for whatever reason. Sometimes they'll end up making excuses for the person, just as Lily did. It's a complicated situation. The important thing is that the person realizes that they deserve more respect than that, and that they get out.

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Snape was fascinated by the dark arts; Snape was friendly with other Slytherins; Snape called muggleborns a racist name; these were the negatives (which Lily's other friends/the Marauder's may have pointed out I mean), but these had not really bothered Lily before because at that time Snape and his friendship was important to her. When her interest in James grew (after the werewolf incident), I think the negatives which had not been very important until then, assumed greater importance and by the SWM, Lily was no longer Snape's friend, but a Gryffindor with the attitude that Slytherins are different and perhaps evil. She used the reasons which she knew about forever and broke off, assuming that she was sure Snape could end up only in one place. As a DE.
Here's what I don't understand: why would having romantic interest in another person cause you to break away from your best friend? And given evidence in the text, I don't see any proof that Lily broke away from Snape because of James. Given that Snape was hanging around racists who liked Dark Magic, using and calling her the word Mudblood, those are the reasons I see in the text.

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Then she should have done it the first time Snape called someone a mudblood. She should not have waited for all those years and then broke off when he called her one IMO.
If Lily should have broken away from him a long time ago, shouldn't we be glad that she finally did? I don't see how it should be held against her that she did it later. Should she have sucked it up and dealt with it since she didn't do it at what we think was a more appropriate time?


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Last edited by RavenStar83; January 31st, 2010 at 8:08 am.
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  #62  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:42 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
In my opinion, they were targeted for death because of the Prophecy. I believe that is stated over and over in the books. JMO The Longbottoms were also on Voldemort's radar, but he didn't personally go after them because he thought Harry was the Chosen One.


Unless you can find some canon about James and Lily adopting Harry from someone else, then yes. IMO

ETA: By the way, Today, Jan. 30th, is Lily's Birthday according to her tombstone in DH. She would have been 50 years young today.
I am sure that I saw it posted that Lily and James were on LV's radar before he targeted them over the prophecy, but I will be truthful the thought of trolling through pages and pages of posts made me quail. Anyway I will stick to the point in this way. James and Lily were active members of the Order and had defied him thrice. That was enough to make them a target. The fact that LV picked Harry was probably because his parents were so effective in the war.

Many Happy Returns of the day, Lily. I for one am sure that giving birth, momentous as that is was not your only accomplishment.


  #63  
Old January 31st, 2010, 9:18 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Many Happy Returns of the day, Lily. I for one am sure that giving birth, momentous as that is was not your only accomplishment.
I agree. And I would say fighting in a war against blood supremacy was already an accomplishment anyway.


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  #64  
Old January 31st, 2010, 3:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
To assume Deship was more important to Snape at the time of the break up is to assume Lily was not as important to Snape as being a DE.
No, it's more like an assumption that Snape really didn't have his priorities in order. If you look at Dark Arts and wanting to join the DEs as an "addiction" of sorts, it all is a lot more believable. You can have an addiction and still love somebody and not make the right decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
but these had not really bothered Lily before because at that time Snape and his friendship was important to her.
Obviously it bothered her if she mentioned it during their last fight. Just because she gave him so many chances and excuses for his behavior doesn't mean it didn't bother her. It means she wanted to make things work out until it just because too much. She can find Severus referring to other Muggleborns as mudbloods deplorable and still be justified to have a much different and finite reaction when he finally turned the word on her. It's not believable to think that a word used on other people is going to be just as hurtful when it is hurled towards you.
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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
If Lily should have broken away from him a long time ago, shouldn't we be glad that she finally did? I don't see how it should be held against her that she did it later. Should she have sucked it up and dealt with it since she didn't do it at what we think was a more appropriate time?
Good point.


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Last edited by random_musing; January 31st, 2010 at 4:06 pm.
  #65  
Old January 31st, 2010, 6:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
The Marauders were not Lily's friends at this point, they were her housemates. She was very puzzled when Snape dragged them into their conversation. Snape IMO was using them as a distraction. I don't know what truth Snape was telling her. He didn't need help from 'a filthy little mudblood like her.'
Agree. Severus changed the subject when Lily mentioned his friends, while she agreed with him on the subject of the Marauders.

Quote:
IMO Snape was not the man who died at LV's hands at this point in his life. That man would rise from the ashes of the very troubled young boy who called his friend that terrible name.
I agree, there's a mammoth difference between teenage Snape and the adult Snape who changed so completely to give all to defeat Voldemort.

To claim he only became a DE because Lily abandoned him or that someone else is to blame removes his responsibility for his actions and cheapens his transformation, imo. His transformation is much more significant if we can accept that he needed to change so much, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
I don't see how this can be held against Lily. Snape at the time couldn't give her any proof. From what I get from the memories, all he was able to give her was supposedly his own suspicions. And Lily believed he was ill. Good friends believe and trust one another, but it doesn't mean one can't question what the other is saying especially when there's no proof (at least proof that can be given).

This may be speculation on my part, but I would suspect that maybe Lily didn't want herself or anyone else to worry about Remus' "illness" because it really was nobody's business. If someone is indeed ill, the common courtesy would be just to leave them alone and let them or anyone else helping them handle it. At least that's what I think.
I agree, it wasn't anybody elses' business, and I can see why Lily wouldn't be interested in ferretting out secrets about people. Especially people she wasn't friends with.

I don't think disagreeing with a friend on a matter of opinion with no proof equates to not appreciating them. I see a parallel here with the Trio. Hermione didn't believe there was a horcrux at Hogwarts, despite Harry's insistence. That isn't a failing as a friend, imo, or being an unappreciative friend, just one with her own opinions, even if they are incorrect.

Quote:
I'm reading theories of how Lily cared a lot about her "social status", which was part of why she broke off her friendship with Snape. I honestly do not know where this could be coming from. Snape was hanging around people who embraced and practiced Dark Magic and who were doing it on other people (e.g. Mary Mcdonald). Yes, Lily's friends didn't know why she's been hanging around Snape for so long, but why would it have anything to do with the fact that Snape was poor or was in Slytherin? Given the evidence in the text showing why Lily was unhappy with Snape, wouldn't her friends see it too? Especially after what Mulciber did to Mary Mcdonald? Wouldn't that be what Lily was "making excuses for" instead of worrying about hanging around someone who was poor and didn't look as handsome? Again, I'm seeing a lot more evidence of the former and none of the latter.
Also, what we've seen of Lily suggest she wasn't too concerned with what people thought - defying Petunia, continuing the friendship despite her other friends' concerns, challenging popular boys to stand up for her friend. I don't see her wanting rid of Severus' friendship for the sake of popularity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
In my opinion, they were targeted for death because of the Prophecy. I believe that is stated over and over in the books. JMO The Longbottoms were also on Voldemort's radar, but he didn't personally go after them because he thought Harry was the Chosen One.
Perhaps he didn't personally target the Potters until he decided Harry was the Chosen One. However, their son being born at the end of July wasn't enough. The prophecy also specified that the parents of the child in question had "thrice defied" Voldemort. Which suggests to me they made a contribution to Order activities before going into hiding.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
So if you follow someone around to irritate them/sneak around behind them, are they justified in sending you to face fully grown werewolves? I disagree.
Original post:

Quote:
In the break up, I see a Lily who wouldn't let herself be somebody's exception to their beliefs. As for the werewolf incident, it was wrong of Sirius, certainly, but did Severus really need to follow them around? If you dislike someone, you generally avoid them, not sneak around after them.
Sirius was wrong, extremely so, to send Snape in after a werewolf, I said as much in my original post. However, that doesn't put Snape in the right for sneaking around after the Marauders, imo.

Quote:
Then she should have done it the first time Snape called someone a mudblood. She should not have waited for all those years and then broke off when he called her one IMO.
Sometimes it takes an unpleasant shock for people to see things clearly -like Dumbledore after Ariana's death and Severus when he learned Lily was targeted. I think this incident was something in the same mould for Lily -though, I know not anywhere near as serious or as traumatic. Maybe she should have broken it off the first time Snape used that word, but people make excuses for their friends.


Quote:
This is something else that happens in real life. As I've said many times on this forum before, there are people who do stay in a relationship with someone who looks down on their background. It's not good, and its not healthy, but there many reasons why a person would stay in such a relationship. Maybe they love the person too much, or maybe they're afraid to let the person go for whatever reason. Sometimes they'll end up making excuses for the person, just as Lily did. It's a complicated situation. The important thing is that the person realizes that they deserve more respect than that, and that they get out.
That seems to me very much what happened with Lily's perspective on Severus and the Dark Arts/Mudblood.



Quote:
Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
No, it's more like an assumption that Snape really didn't have his priorities in order. If you look at Dark Arts and wanting to join the DEs as an "addiction" of sorts, it all is a lot more believable. You can have an addiction and still love somebody and not make the right decisions.
That's a very interesting way of looking at it I think, maybe, addiction and obsession are very similar and cloud ones' judgement in the same ways. I can see that as a plausible reason why Severus couldn't see that his obsession with Dark magic was at odds with love for a Muggleborn.


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Last edited by FurryDice; January 31st, 2010 at 6:05 pm.
  #66  
Old January 31st, 2010, 6:45 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think disagreeing with a friend on a matter of opinion with no proof equates to not appreciating them. I see a parallel here with the Trio. Hermione didn't believe there was a horcrux at Hogwarts, despite Harry's insistence. That isn't a failing as a friend, imo, or being an unappreciative friend, just one with her own opinions, even if they are incorrect.
Also, here's what I've seeing here so far: When Snape doesn't listen to Lily's concerns and switches the subject to the Marauders, he's trying to watch out for her by pointing out how bad her "friends" (there's no proof that they were friends in 5th year), and having good reason to do so because that's what Snape believes (and sometimes he just doesn't know any better). But when Lily points how bad his friends are (and its proven that they are) and believes there's no proof or reason to believe his werewolf theory, she's being unappreciative for not listening to Snape.


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"In a lot of cases I think being the canon love interest for a much-beloved male character is the female character's death sentence." ~ thirty2flavors regarding the hate of female characters in fandom




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  #67  
Old January 31st, 2010, 6:53 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
Also, here's what I've seeing here so far: When Snape doesn't listen to Lily's concerns and switches the subject to the Marauders, he's trying to watch out for her by pointing out how bad her "friends" (there's no proof that they were friends in 5th year), and having good reason to do so because that's what Snape believes (and sometimes he just doesn't know any better). But when Lily points how bad his friends are (and its proven that they are) and believes there's no proof or reason to believe his werewolf theory, she's being unappreciative for not listening to Snape.
Everything so far? There has also been posters who have expressed the opinion that by this time the prejudices/hypocrisy that seems to stem from these House's has taken its heavy toll on the friendship. Also, communications have just broken down, neither seem to be listening or understanding fully what the other is feeling or trying to say (my own point). But, you seem to have ignored this in your sweeping generalisations of others posters feelings who have taken the time to also contribute here.



Last edited by Annielogic; January 31st, 2010 at 10:21 pm.
  #68  
Old January 31st, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Annielogic, post 67
There has also been posters who have expressed the opinion that by this time the prejudices/hypocrisy that seems to stem from these House's having taken its heavy toll on the friendship. Communications have just broken down, neither seem to be listening or understanding fully what the other is feeling. But, you seem to have ignored this in your sweeping generalisation of others posters feelings who have taken the time to also contribute here.
Speaking for myself, yes I have read those posts and while I have every respect for the posters opinions, my opinion differs. Communications between Severus and Lily were working so well that he changed the subject because Lily was getting to close to a sore point. Communication worked very well when he called her a 'mudblood'. My position is and always has been that Snape made major mistakes when he was a young man. Those mistakes cost him his friendship with Lily and any possible future he might have had with her.

This is a little bit off the point of your Annielogic's post but I have to point out that there is no proof that Lily knew Severus made a habit of calling muggleborns 'mudbloods' before their last conversation. He doesn't use the word in any conversation that they have and if he doesn't say it in front of her how is she to know. I think she was told after SWM by her girlfreinds in her dorm. What could be more natural than that if she was sitting in the dorm upset? Someone could have easily told her then and that would have added to her shock and hurt. IMO it's a reasonable explanation for what she then says to Snape.



Last edited by eliza101; January 31st, 2010 at 7:07 pm.
  #69  
Old January 31st, 2010, 7:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
Everything so far? There has also been posters (myself too) who have expressed the opinion that by this time the prejudices/hypocrisy that seems to stem from these House's has taken its heavy toll on the friendship. Communications have just broken down, neither seem to be listening or understanding fully what the other is feeling or trying to say. But, you seem to have ignored this in your sweeping generalisations of others posters feelings who have taken the time to also contribute here.
Am I generalizing anyone? All I'm pointing out are bits and pieces of what I've seen for some time. If I have ignored anything, it's because I am of the opinion that House rivalry isn't the reason why Snape and Lily stopped being friends. Besides, house rivalry and lack of communication does not explain why Snape doesn't have to listen to Lily's concerns, yet Lily has to listen to his.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
This is a little bit off the point of your Annielogic's post but I have to point out that there is no proof that Lily knew Severus made a habit of calling muggleborns 'mudbloods' before their last conversation. He doesn't use the word in any conversation that they have and if he doesn't say it in front of her how is she to know. I think she was told after SWM by her girlfreinds in her dorm. What could be more natural than that if she was sitting in the dorm upset? Someone could have easily told her then and that would have added to her shock and hurt. IMO it's a reasonable explanation for what she then says to Snape.
There may not be proof, as we only have a select few memories from Snape. But I think it's quite possible that Lily did hear it from Snape himself, or hear it from others that he did before their last conversation. As I said in another post before, people have stayed with people who were racist, and this may have been one of the things Lily kept excusing.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; January 31st, 2010 at 7:24 pm.
  #70  
Old January 31st, 2010, 7:20 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Speaking for myself, yes I have read those posts and while I have every respect for the posters opinions, my opinion differs. Communications between Severus and Lily were working so well that he changed the subject because Lily was getting to close to a sore point.
I meant Severus wasn't understanding or listening to what was troubling Lily about the people he was spending time with.

Lily, in turn, I don't think understood the full toll of what neglect and continued torment can do to a person physiologically. Although, of course she cared deeply and had compassion for someone who suffered this. Harry, in contrast, had great empathy in that respect having experienced those conditions.

I think, from Snape's point of view he genuinely didn't see a difference between Mulciber and co, and the Marauders. Especially, considering this is after the Werewolf incident. I think he brings them up because it is so very soon after the werewolf incident and must still have been very raw emotion at the time; and he is also aware of James' attraction to Lily, he can see Lily's opinion and head is being turned by James now. However, of course, Lily is rightly confused by him bringing James into the conversation as she does not have all the information he has, or realises his fears.

They aren't communicating well enough, they're not understanding what the other is feeling or trying to say. Imo.

Quote:
Communication worked very well when he called her a 'mudblood'.
Snape was in a position of extreme torment and humilation, after (in his view) an attempt on his life, after 5 years of this in lashed out.

ETA: Driven to the point of reaching the absolute end of someone's tether, at breaking point, is not a good point for clear and concise communication.

His postion does not justify what he said, but does explain how he may have got to that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
Am I generalizing anyone? All I'm pointing out are bits and pieces of what I've seen for some time. If I have ignored anything, it's because I am of the opinion that House rivalry isn't the reason why Snape and Lily stopped being friends. Besides, house rivalry and lack of communication does not explain why Snape doesn't have to listen to Lily's concerns, yet Lily has to listen to his.
Because you said: "Also, here's what I've seeing here so far", which implies just that: what you have seen so far. Your list gives the impression that is all posters have noted about Snape and Lily relationship, and all of the same opinion. You mentioned other things/explanations you don't agree with in your previous post. I think, from this post that is not what you intended.

A breakdown of communication has a huge bearing on a relationship, imo.



Last edited by Annielogic; February 4th, 2010 at 2:15 pm.
  #71  
Old January 31st, 2010, 7:56 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
I meant Severus wasn't understanding or listening to what was troubling Lily about the people he was spending time with.

Lily, in turn, I don't think understood the full toll of what neglect and continued torment can do to a person physiologically. Although, cared deeply about someone who suffered this. Harry, in contrast, had great empathy in that respect.

I think, from Snape's point of view he genuinely doesn't see a difference between Mulciber and co, and the Marauders. Especially, considering this is after the Werewolf incident. I think he brings them up because it is so very soon after the werewolf incident and must still have been very raw emotion at the time; and as he is also aware of James' attraction to Lily, he can see Lily's opinion and head is being turned by James now. However, of course, Lily is rightly confused by him bringing James into the conversation as she does not have all the information he has.

They aren't communicating well enough, they're not understanding what the other is trying to say. Imo.



Snape was in a position of extreme torment and humilation, after (in his view) an attempt on his life, after 5 years of this in lashed out. Driven to the point of reaching the absolute end of someone's tether at breaking point, is not a good spot for clear and concise communication. I assure, you as someone who has suffered a breakdown.

His postion does not justify what he said, but does explain how he may have got to that point.



Because you said: "Also, here's what I've seeing here so far", which implies just that: what you have seen so far. Your list gives the impression that is all posters have noted about Snape and Lily relationship, and all of the same opinion. I think, from this post that is not what you intended.

A breakdown of communication has a huge bearing on a relationship, imo.
I'm sorry Annie, I just don't believe it. If Snape had been in a pressure cooker, I would say that perhaps there was a point, but I don't think that Hogwarts can legitimately be compared a place where that much pressure is being applied. Snape was at a school. a school where he was the one who concocted the spell that was used on him. I don't think that the Marauders were the devil incarnate out to torment every minute of every day. I think he was extremely unwise to go into a tunnel where he suspected a werewolf might be lurking, especially when he was told how to do it by Sirius. Now don't think I am downplaying bullying, I've been on a playground myself in long lifetime and I remember how it was to be the bookworm and different. I never turned on my best friend and I don't excuse Snape for doing that either.
As TGW said earlier in The Marauders thread:
Quote:
The Green Woods post 1168
Stress cannot be an excuse for abuse. I can't for example say students can be abused in Hogwarts because their teachers are stressed out for example. No one would agree. Being stressed is sad and I agree Sirius suffered in Azkaban, but I am afraid that is not an excuse for his actions.
Change Sirius to Severus and Azkaban for the playground. If the shoe fits.



Last edited by eliza101; January 31st, 2010 at 7:58 pm. Reason: spelling
  #72  
Old January 31st, 2010, 7:56 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
I think, from Snape's point of view he genuinely doesn't see a difference between Mulciber and co, and the Marauders. Especially, considering this is after the Werewolf incident. I think he brings them up because it is so very soon after the werewolf incident and must still have been very raw emotion at the time; and as he is also aware of James' attraction to Lily, he can see Lily's opinion and head is being turned by James now. However, of course, Lily is rightly confused by him bringing James into the conversation as she does not have all the information he has.

They aren't communicating well enough, they're not understanding what the other is trying to say. Imo.
I completely agree with this , Annie!

Quote:
Snape was in a position of extreme torment and humilation, after (in his view) an attempt on his life, after 5 years of this in lashed out.
Yes, I don't think it can be ignored that Severus believed that they had made an attempt on his life, just a few night previous to this conversation. So, when Lily is going on to Severus about Mulciber, he must have thought that what Mulciber and Avery did was nothing compared to what James and his friends had tried to do to him. This is why I don't think Severus was trying to deliberately divert the conversation, as far as he was concerned he had good reason to mention James.


  #73  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:00 pm
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I completely agree with this , Annie!



Yes, I don't think it can be ignored that Severus believed that they had made an attempt on his life, just a few night previous to this conversation. So, when Lily is going on to Severus about Mulciber, he must have thought that what Mulciber and Avery did was nothing compared to what James and his friends had tried to do to him. This is why I don't think Severus was trying to deliberately divert the conversation, as far as he was concerned he had good reason to mention James.
Yes, well IMO at this point in time Severus was not thinking straight on any topic.


  #74  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I don't think that the Marauders were the devil incarnate out to torment every minute of every day.
I don't believe the Marauders were the devil incarnate either.

Goodness me, I even had a bully apologise to me years later, so I do know people can mature and change.

By the way, bullies don't have to torment someone everyday, yet it preys on the other person's mind nevertheless. People react differently to this kind of pressure, again I do not justify what Snape did, but I think Snape developing powerful spells and hanging around people who accpeted him and gave him a sense of protection and power was his way of coping.

Problem is the twit didn't realise that kind of power with those people would not impress Lily.

Quote:
I think he was extremely unwise to go into a tunnel where he suspected a werewolf might be lurking, especially when he was told how to do it by Sirius.
No, disagreements about following Sirius' hints, here. He didn't know they were Animagi, so he may logically have deduced there were protections in place to protect three humans from a werewolf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
As TGW said earlier in The Marauders thread:

Change Sirius to Severus and Azkaban for the playground. If the shoe fits.
I repeat: His postion does not justify what he said, but does explain how he may have got to that point. Understanding a character or finding an explanation for their feelings and actions is not justifying. It's part of anaylsis, discovering what makes them tick.



Last edited by Annielogic; January 31st, 2010 at 9:20 pm.
  #75  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:11 pm
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Yes, I don't think it can be ignored that Severus believed that they had made an attempt on his life, just a few night previous to this conversation. So, when Lily is going on to Severus about Mulciber, he must have thought that what Mulciber and Avery did was nothing compared to what James and his friends had tried to do to him. This is why I don't think Severus was trying to deliberately divert the conversation, as far as he was concerned he had good reason to mention James.
Yes, I agree. Years after, he still sees it as an attempt to murder him... and the thought that precisely James can "fancy" Lily is more painful to him that in other circumstances.


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  #76  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:13 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
I don't believe the Marauders were the devil incarnate either.
Me either!

Quote:
Problem is the twit didn't realise that kind of power with those people would not impress Lily.
I know I feel like hitting him over the head with a broom when reading his conversations with Lily.


  #77  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
A breakdown of communication has a huge bearing on a relationship, imo.
I agree with this. And I can understand that Snape's upbringing may clouded his ability to judge things properly. But if Snape is as troubled as we claim him to be, 1.)Lily is not a trained psychologist/social worker. 2.) Snape was hanging around people who hated people like Lily and inflicted Dark Magic on others. As far I can tell, theses weren't the kind of people Lily should have been anywhere near by.

So I have just concluded that neither may have had the ability to give what the other needed. Yet the bits and pieces that I have seen for some time is that Snape gets excused for it, Lily does not. Besides, if Lily was more understanding of Snape, what could she have done to help Snape turn to the right path?

(To clarify, I am not of the opinion that Snape was too ignorant or naive to not know the difference between Mulciber and the Marauders. Sometimes a person is so blinded by what they want, they and make excuses to justify their actions. They'll do things like change the subject on someone in order to avoid talking about it, just as Snape does with Lily.)

As for Snape calling Lily a mudblood, he may have been angry, but notice that he doesn't lash out at James or Sirius. He lashes out at his best friend, the one helping him. And I will also say this because it applies to real life: It says a lot about someone when they use such a racial slur, regardless of what emotion they're in. And I think Lily knew that.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; January 31st, 2010 at 8:19 pm.
  #78  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:22 pm
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
(To clarify, I am not of the opinion that Snape was too ignorant or naive to not know the difference between Mulciber and the Marauders. Sometimes a person is so blinded by what they want, and make excuses to justify their actions.
He was blinded about Mulciber, but not exactly about the Marauders. In his opinion, what they did to him, was really evil. And no, they weren't the devil incarnate, I agree. But Snape probably thought they were...


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  #79  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:24 pm
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
I agree with this. And I can understand that Snape's upbringing may clouded his ability to judge things properly. But if Snape is as troubled as we claim him to be, 1.)Lily is not a trained psychologist/social worker. 2.) Snape was hanging around people who hated people like Lily and inflicted Dark Magic on others. As far I can tell, theses weren't the kind of people Lily should have been anywhere near by.

So I have just concluded that neither may have had the ability to give what the other needed. Yet the bits and pieces that I have seen for some time is that Snape gets excused for it, Lily does not. Besides, if Lily was more understanding of Snape, what could she have done to help Snape turn to the right path?

(To clarify, I am not of the opinion that Snape was too ignorant or naive to not know the difference between Mulciber and the Marauders. Sometimes a person is so blinded by what they want, they and make excuses to justify their actions. They'll do things like change the subject on someone in order to avoid talking about it, just as Snape does with Lily.)

As for Snape calling Lily a mudblood, he may have been angry, but notice that he doesn't lash out at James or Sirius. He lashes out at his best friend, the one helping him. And I will also say this because it applies to real life: It says a lot about someone when they use such a racial slur, regardless of what emotion they're in. And I think Lily knew that.
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you. He just misunderstood how much damage he did. Lily was not obliged to forgive or forget. I don't like what he did, but I can understand why he did it, the berk.


  #80  
Old January 31st, 2010, 8:28 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you. He just misunderstood how much damage he did. Lily was not obliged to forgive or forget. I don't like what he did, but I can understand why he did it, the berk.
Exactly! We often hurt most those we love.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; January 31st, 2010 at 8:32 pm.
 
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