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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #21  
Old January 28th, 2010, 11:24 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Bella_Crucio_U View Post
I voted for kind of...then I saw this. It is true that Snape did lay his whole life down for Lily and changed sides all for her. I am starting to rethink. But I still think Snape should have listened to Lily. If he did they would still have been friends and he wouldn't have to worry about being a double agent later on. I also think that maybe Lily might have ended up with Snape rather than James if that were to happen. A weird thought...
I think you are right up to a point. Even if Snape had followed Lily's every wish, James was still in the equation, and he seemed so enamored that I doubt he would have given her up without constant fighting, imo.

Really the relationship was doomed by the old Slytherin-Gryffindor split, in my opinion. There's no such thing as a Slytherin-Gryffindor relationship in the books, except Snape and Dumbledore, LOL. The closest thing is Hermione and Krum, but that is temporary. In my opinion, it wasn't going to happen no matter what Snape did or didn't do.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; January 28th, 2010 at 11:29 pm.
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  #22  
Old January 29th, 2010, 2:35 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Really the relationship was doomed by the old Slytherin-Gryffindor split, in my opinion. There's no such thing as a Slytherin-Gryffindor relationship in the books, except Snape and Dumbledore, LOL.
Good point. I never wanted Lily and Snape together anyway. But it would have been nice if they could have remained friends. That would've been interesting...James dealing with their friendship even though he hated Snape


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  #23  
Old January 29th, 2010, 2:47 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Why do you think did this encounter go 'wrong'?

* Snape jumping out like he did would have startled the girls.
* They had probably been wared about strangers (even young ones) and were wary of anyone from there.
* Snape called Lily a "witch," and she thought it was an insult. When he said he was a wizard, Petunia probably thought he was fanticizing. Even though she knew Lily had some kind of powers, I don't think she was in anyway aware that there was a who Wizarding World.
* Lily realized that Snape had insulted her sister, even though she might not have known what he was saying.

How do you interpret Lily's behaviour here?

Like I said, she was startled and a bit insulted. I think his appearance had a lot to do with it, too. He obviously was a curious sight in the clothes he was wearing.

Why does Lily glare at Snape?

Partly because of how he looked and partly because of his manner when he approached and spoke with them.

Has this scene changed your opinion of Lily and Snape's friendship?

Not really because they were both so young.

Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

He was shy, from "the wrong side of the tracks," shabbily dressed, and didn't really know what the girls' reaction would be. He didn't want to be rejected.

No, I don't think he would have been interested in a Muggle.


2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Because she did not know anyone else who was aware of magic and appreciated her abilities. I don't think she would have been interested in him at all if he hadn't been a young wizard and could help her make sense of the things she could do but wasn't sure why/how she could do them. He opened a whole new world to her.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

At first he was the "teacher," showing her about the WW. Later, at school, she excelled in many subjects and was able to function about other magic people on her own. I think their friendship was based on her need for his helping to introduce her to her new world, and his need for her approval to boost his self-esteem.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

During Fifth year he students are 15-16 year-olds. They not only have friendships, but are starting to establish relationships with the opposite sex. As Lily grew older and more beautiful she would have become more attractive to people like James. They may have worked to maintain their relationship during summer and vacation times, but, at school, it would have been much harder.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't think Snape would have ended up a DE if he'd been sorted into any of the other houses. If he'd gone into Gryffindor, he might have had a chance. But, being surrounded by the mind-set of most Slytherins about Muggels/Mudbloods would have eventually taken its toll on him.

I think Lily was influenced against Severus, maybe not even realizing it, by the derogatory remarks by the Gryffindors about Slytherins in general and Snape in particular. I think this influence acted on her the same as the Slytherin influence acted on Snape.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think the Mudblood insult was the last straw. I'm not sure what Lily actually saw the DEs doing, but, she'd heard enough from her friends that she was leery of them. She asked Snape to break away from them, but, where else was he going to find friends in his House? I doubt there were many in Slytherin who weren't at least pretending to be DEs.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

If Lily and Snape had avoided everyone else and only hung around with each other, maybe. But, peer pressure at that age is a great force in steering young people toward choices they might not normally make. Yes, they both might have made different choices, but, I don't think it was practical under either's circumstances to do so.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Severus loved Lily. I don't know if we see exactly when his feeling of friendship turned to love. I don't think she love him in the same way, so, no I don't think there would have been a romantic future on her part. And, that, in itself would pretty much condemn the friendship. It may not be impossible for relationship where one is in love and the other only feels friendship to exist, but, it is very, very difficult. Too many awkward situations.


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  #24  
Old January 29th, 2010, 3:58 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I believe Snape was a terrible friend. As far as being a "friend" goes, I don't believe he was good at that. I don't think Snape knows what it means to be a friend.

I do believe that he loved her, and wanted nothing more than to be near her, but as far as being friends with her. It seemed that he was very selfish during their school days and didn't realize that what he was doing was pushing her away until it was too late.


Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
*I believe he was shy and probably didn't want to be rejected. I doubt he would have been interested if she hadn't had any magic.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
*I think she was intrigued by him, he may have been a bit offputting but she seemed to have a big heart and look past that. I think Lily would have accepted him no matter who he was, if he had something interesting to say.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
*It seems like Snape wanted to be accepted by her at first more than anything. Lily was instantly popular, but she still had a place for Snape until later.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
*Hogwarts had a big effect on their relationship, they may have been friends, but they were drifting apart because of differences of opinion. I'm sure Snapes fellow slytherins would mess with him about being friends with a muggle born.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
*I kind of answered a bit of this in the last question. I think Gryffindor house and Slytherin house being the rival houses that they are, really pushed these two apart even more. Snapes slytherin pals obviously didn't like Lily, and the Gryffindors weren't fans of the way most slytherins feel about non pure bloods.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
*It had to be a mixture of everything. They were growing up and growing apart. Lily knew snape wanted to be a death eater, and snape couldn't stand that lily was friends with someone like James Potter and the rest of his group that were constantly playing pranks on him.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
*I believe their fates were written in stone. It seems nothing they could have done would save the friendship, it just wasn't destined to be.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
*If they could have somehow managed that, who knows what would happen. I don't think they could be romantic, and there was still James to worry about. As long as James was in the picture I don't think much would have happened between snape and lily.


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Last edited by Ruru; January 29th, 2010 at 5:53 am.
  #25  
Old January 29th, 2010, 4:04 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruru View Post
I believe Snape was a terrible friend. As far as being a "friend" goes, I don't believe he was good at that. I don't think Snape knows what it means to be a friend.

I do believe that he loved her, and wanted nothing more than to be near her, but as far as being friends with her. It seemed that he was very selfish during their school days and didn't realize that what he was doing was pushing her away until it was too late.
I have to agree, this was one of the mistakes he made when he was younger.


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  #26  
Old January 29th, 2010, 4:07 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella_Crucio_U View Post
Good point. I never wanted Lily and Snape together anyway. But it would have been nice if they could have remained friends. That would've been interesting...James dealing with their friendship even though he hated Snape
It really would have been interesting, for sure.


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  #27  
Old January 29th, 2010, 11:05 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think the Mudblood insult was the last straw. I'm not sure what Lily actually saw the DEs doing, but, she'd heard enough from her friends that she was leery of them. She asked Snape to break away from them, but, where else was he going to find friends in his House? I doubt there were many in Slytherin who weren't at least pretending to be DEs.
This is a problem for me. Mainly because I don't see Hogwarts as a prison with the Houses acting like cells. I do think if a student wanted it enough it would have bee possible to change something about their living arrangements. I'm not saying it would have been easy, far from it. If Snape felt that the Slytherin beliefs were having such a negative effect on him that they were driving Lily away, (and they were), then it was up to him to take a stand. We see Neville take a stand in the very first book. When he sees The trio leaving to go investigate what's under Fluffy, he tells them that it's wrong. And he was correct. Quirrelmort was trapped by the mirror. He would have been there when DD got back. It worked out fine for Harry, he proved himself and all that, but so did Neville. He took a stand against what his friends were doing that he thought was wrong and he was rewarded. There is a very definite parallel IMO between his behavior and Snape's. Snape went with the flow in Slytherin House, when Neville felt strongly, he did not. The same thing happens with Lily, none of her friends in Slytherin can understand what she sees in Snape, yet she still remains a friend to him. She is enough of a friend to go and draw a wand against her house mates in his defense.

It's not good enough to say
Quote:
' but, where else was he going to find friends in his House?
perhaps he would find friends with those Slytherins who did not think it the hight of cool to be an aspiring DE. There must have been some and perhaps they would have liked someone to be the leader of the Anti-DE League?


  #28  
Old January 29th, 2010, 2:15 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Agreed. I think that if Snape cared enough for Lily or had actually thought through what his actions would lead him to do, he would have somehow found other Slythie friends. But, obviously he cared more about being cool and becoming a Death Eater than he did for Lily even when he felt their relashonship slipping. Snape is one of those people who dosn't think before acting and right after he loses Lily he regrets it. The same goes for after Lily dies, he changes his whole life for her. Snape has a tragic life, but it's all from his own doing. I think he could have prevented all of this if he had just listened to Lily's advice and ditched those soon to be Death Eaters.


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  #29  
Old January 30th, 2010, 2:11 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post

Severus loved Lily. I don't know if we see exactly when his feeling of friendship turned to love. I don't think she love him in the same way, so, no I don't think there would have been a romantic future on her part. And, that, in itself would pretty much condemn the friendship. It may not be impossible for relationship where one is in love and the other only feels friendship to exist, but, it is very, very difficult. Too many awkward situations.
And there is the reason I think Lily is vilified sometimes on this thread. She didn't return Severus' feelings, and so she is in the wrong. Which is unfair, imo. It may be awkward for both parties, but a person isn't obliged to return the feelings of another. I'm not saying you said this, but it's the impression that sometimes comes across in some posts.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
This is a problem for me. Mainly because I don't see Hogwarts as a prison with the Houses acting like cells. I do think if a student wanted it enough it would have bee possible to change something about their living arrangements. I'm not saying it would have been easy, far from it. If Snape felt that the Slytherin beliefs were having such a negative effect on him that they were driving Lily away, (and they were), then it was up to him to take a stand. We see Neville take a stand in the very first book. When he sees The trio leaving to go investigate what's under Fluffy, he tells them that it's wrong. And he was correct. Quirrelmort was trapped by the mirror. He would have been there when DD got back. It worked out fine for Harry, he proved himself and all that, but so did Neville. He took a stand against what his friends were doing that he thought was wrong and he was rewarded. There is a very definite parallel IMO between his behavior and Snape's. Snape went with the flow in Slytherin House, when Neville felt strongly, he did not. The same thing happens with Lily, none of her friends in Slytherin can understand what she sees in Snape, yet she still remains a friend to him. She is enough of a friend to go and draw a wand against her house mates in his defense.
I agree, all of Slytherin House can't have been prejudiced or can't have been in the wannabe DE clique. If that were the case, 25% of Hogwarts students would have been future DEs and I personally can't see that. 25% of the adult population of the wizarding world aren't DEs. Severus had other options if he didn't truly support prejudice. On that matter, how did Mulciber, Avery and co. view his friendship with Lily up until SWM? If he was led by them to such an extent, wouldn't they have led him to end his friendship with a Muggleborn?!

That's an interesting parallel with Neville about standing up to one's own Housemates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella_Crucio_U View Post
Agreed. I think that if Snape cared enough for Lily or had actually thought through what his actions would lead him to do, he would have somehow found other Slythie friends. But, obviously he cared more about being cool and becoming a Death Eater than he did for Lily even when he felt their relashonship slipping. Snape is one of those people who dosn't think before acting and right after he loses Lily he regrets it. The same goes for after Lily dies, he changes his whole life for her. Snape has a tragic life, but it's all from his own doing. I think he could have prevented all of this if he had just listened to Lily's advice and ditched those soon to be Death Eaters.
The tragedy of Severus Snape, IMO, is that he himself is the cause of the greatest sorrows in his life. I don't know if it was pride, or stubbornness or something else that prevented him from truly taking Lily's concerns on board. He certainly seemed divorced from reality in not recognising that his interest in a blood prejudiced group was at odds with his love for someone
Muggleborn. It's like a person in love with a member of a targeted group in society wanting to join the Nazis or KKK or BNP. It makes no sense and I think he'd have seen that if he'd taken Lily's concerns seriously.

For the poll, I chose the options that Snape wasn't a good friend to Lily because he sympathised with blood supremacist terrorists and also that SWM was the last straw. I know Snape did a lot, a huge amount, in Lily's memory, after her death, partially out of guilt. However, I agree with RavenStar83 that for a friendship, both parties need to be alive, so I felt that Snape was not a good friend to Lily while she was alive.

As for the option that Lily didn't appreciate Snape enough, in what ways do people believe did she not appreciate him enough?


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Last edited by FurryDice; January 30th, 2010 at 2:14 am.
  #30  
Old January 30th, 2010, 7:06 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
And there is the reason I think Lily is vilified sometimes on this thread. She didn't return Severus' feelings, and so she is in the wrong. Which is unfair, imo. It may be awkward for both parties, but a person isn't obliged to return the feelings of another. I'm not saying you said this, but it's the impression that sometimes comes across in some posts.
As for the option that Lily didn't appreciate Snape enough, in what ways do people believe did she not appreciate him enough?[/quote]
I don't really like that option myself. To say that puts too much responsibility on Lily, like it was up to her to change Snape or something. Just because he has romantic feelings for her, doesn't mean she automatically owes him anything.

A good friend is supposed to be there for you and help guide you in the right direction. But it's hard to do that when the other person just won't budge, and Snape didn't. And I don't see in the text where Snape was doing anything to guide Lily in the right direction or help her except have romantic feelings for her and try making James look bad.

(And if it needs more clarification, I am ONLY referring to the time when they were in school together.)


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  #31  
Old January 30th, 2010, 8:40 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by [QUOTE
RavenStar83;5489978]As for the option that Lily didn't appreciate Snape enough, in what ways do people believe did she not appreciate him enough?
I don't really like that option myself. To say that puts too much responsibility on Lily, like it was up to her to change Snape or something. Just because he has romantic feelings for her, doesn't mean she automatically owes him anything.

A good friend is supposed to be there for you and help guide you in the right direction. But it's hard to do that when the other person just won't budge, and Snape didn't. And I don't see in the text where Snape was doing anything to guide Lily in the right direction or help her except have romantic feelings for her and try making James look bad.

(And if it needs more clarification, I am ONLY referring to the time when they were in school together.)[/
QUOTE]

For this thread, Snape and Lily, their time together at school is the only time that can be said that they had a relationship. Snape's actions after school are independent of Lily. He acted on his feelings for her, but not their relationship. That ended a long time ago and Lily had moved on in a positive direction.


  #32  
Old January 30th, 2010, 12:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furry Dice
As for the option that Lily didn't appreciate Snape enough, in what ways do people believe did she not appreciate him enough?
Well for one thing, he was honest with her, which is a trait he still had years later. Maybe he was blunt and told her things she didn't like hearing (in a parallel with Luna Lovegood, imo, since Lily thought he was crazy to think Lupin was a werewolf) but Snape wasn't actually as secretive then as Lily's friends in Gryffindor, who were illegal Animagi.

Lily was blunt with Severus as well, so I am not "vilifying" her in saying this. They both let each other have a dose of truth about each other's friends, so they were pretty well-matched in that department.

I stand by my previous statement that even if Snape had cut himself off from the rest of Slytherin, it wouldn't have changed anything. By the time Lily gave him the ultimatum, he couldn't see the point since her opinion of James was rising by then. There was no time for him to make up lost ground with Lily, so it was futile anyway. JMO

When she says that he has made his choice and she's made hers, he really has no choice but to go back to friends in his own house. Lily is his only friend outside of Slytherin, and she's done with him. He couldn't earn back her affection even if he had left school at that point and never talked to Mulciber again. JMO


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  #33  
Old January 30th, 2010, 1:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Well for one thing, he was honest with her, which is a trait he still had years later. Maybe he was blunt and told her things she didn't like hearing (in a parallel with Luna Lovegood, imo, since Lily thought he was crazy to think Lupin was a werewolf) but Snape wasn't actually as secretive then as Lily's friends in Gryffindor, who were illegal Animagi.

Lily was blunt with Severus as well, so I am not "vilifying" her in saying this. They both let each other have a dose of truth about each other's friends, so they were pretty well-matched in that department.

I stand by my previous statement that even if Snape had cut himself off from the rest of Slytherin, it wouldn't have changed anything. By the time Lily gave him the ultimatum, he couldn't see the point since her opinion of James was rising by then. There was no time for him to make up lost ground with Lily, so it was futile anyway. JMO

When she says that he has made his choice and she's made hers, he really has no choice but to go back to friends in his own house. Lily is his only friend outside of Slytherin, and she's done with him. He couldn't earn back her affection even if he had left school at that point and never talked to Mulciber again. JMO
It was 2 years before Lily's opinion of James rose enough to for her to go out with him. In that 2 years Snape didn't have enough time to change? And is every child in Slytherin a prospective DE? Even if all hope was lost with Lily, he couldn't see the point of changing because it would be the right thing to do? Was Mulciber's company that enchanting that he just couldn't bring himself to leave it? IMO it was Snape's choice to be with these people. To say that he had no choice is cutting him way too much slack. He had choices, he just didn't want to take another way. To say that he had no choice is to take away his personal responsibility.
He wanted the choice he made, IMO he wanted it more than anything, and that included losing Lily. I don't think for one moment that he thought it would be permanent. I think that was why he hexed James at every opportunity when James and Lily eventually started going out.
It was when he was confronted with the harsh truths about his choices that he changed. When he realised that Lily was on the firing line and LV was definately planning to kill her.


  #34  
Old January 30th, 2010, 4:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
When she says that he has made his choice and she's made hers, he really has no choice but to go back to friends in his own house. Lily is his only friend outside of Slytherin, and she's done with him. He couldn't earn back her affection even if he had left school at that point and never talked to Mulciber again. JMO
He had made his choice - to follow the Dark path. She had made hers - to follow the Light path. The Mudblood remark opens her eyes to that fact. Had he actually effected positive change in his life and turned his back on the Dark side, I believe firmly that he could at least have salvaged the friendship because Lily's statement is about his behavior and his choices, not about him being somehow worthless as a human being.

The whole exchange, actually, reminds me of a scene in the 1951 film version of A Christmas Carol (with Alastair Sim), where Scrooge's fiance breaks it off because he has put his interest in money ahead of everything else. He has changed for the worst. But there's the underlying understanding that if he were to change again for the better, he could regain her. Instead, he was too hardened in the path he had chosen, just as (I believe) Severus had become too hardened in the path he had chosen. That's what killed the friendship with Lily. He had plenty of choice. He just made the wrong choices. And it took some horrible events for him to start making the right ones.

The fact that he did ultimately start making the right choices is why I love him. But I would never minimize his role in destroying the friendship. I think minimizing his responsibility ultimately diminishes him and diminishes the quality of what he accomplished to atone for his past.


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  #35  
Old January 30th, 2010, 4:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
She didn't return Severus' feelings, and so she is in the wrong.
I don't think so; I think she's perfectly right not to think of Snape romantically, if she does not see him that way. That Snape fell for her need not mean she should fall for him as well IMO.

Quote:
He certainly seemed divorced from reality in not recognising that his interest in a blood prejudiced group was at odds with his love for someone
Muggleborn. It's like a person in love with a member of a targeted group in society wanting to join the Nazis or KKK or BNP. It makes no sense and I think he'd have seen that if he'd taken Lily's concerns seriously.
I keep thinking about the same thing myself and I come to a different conclusion exactly because of this. Taking the point Lily was concerned and assuming Snape was like she said in the SWM, planning to join the DE once he left School and assuming his silence in the break up scene was because all the things Lily said was true; then he had 2 years to change his mind and approach Lily. So his way was clear. And we know later just how much he loved her; enough not just to leave Voldemort but to actively, if secretly oppose him and work against him.

Yet, Snape did not approach Lily. It's not clear when he joined the DEs, but if he needed to get Lily back as his friends and even maybe more (she blushed at his intense look after all) he needed to get his act together and try to win her friendship in the next two years IMO.

He would known that Lily meant business and he had no one else in his life like Lily; he liked her, was impressed by her from when he was 9 or so. Seeing how determined Snape could be, I can't think if he was planning to be a DE and knew Lily would never ever accept him on that basis he must either leave the DEs or try and get over Lily IMO.

Canon does not show Snape speaking to Lily at all. I assume that Snape never approached Lily, which means if Lily's words are true, then he chose DEs over her and valued their friendship over her or he did not love her enough to change himself (this is on the assumption Lily's words at the break up scene was true).

Yet, Snape changed later; canon also says through Harry (in the Final Battle with Voldemort) that Snape loved her for nearly all his life; there was no one else more important for Snape.

So, I can't believe that if Snape had already decided his way; if Snape was already planning to be a DE; if Snape had already chosen Avery, Mulciber and Voldemort over Lily; he would hardly come to Dumbledore the way he did and he would hardly beg Voldemort to spare Lily's life and he would not spend the rest of his life working to to forgive himself.

But Snape did all that and I think he loved her very much even during the SWM.

Snape was fascinated in the Dark Arts from before he came to School.Which IMO means Lily would have also known about it. He was also received by Lucius Malfoy after the sorting and the times he did not spend with Lily, he must have spent with his Slytherins. lily knew that as well IMO. She was friends with him through all that. So I don't think his dark arts fascination or his Slytherin friends mattered too much at one time to Lily IMO

My opinion of Lily changed after reading the TPT. The two memories; the one after the werewolf incident and the SWM and its break up, changed Lily's character and not for the better either IMO.

I felt Lily, from the girl who went out of her way to keep a friendship because the friend was beloved to her, became a girl who did not want the friendship if the said friend would not change to suit her views IMO. I believe her views changed from the werewolf incident and that change reflected in her attitude towards Snape as well IMO.

And I believe it was that change that caused the break up of their friendship. That change I believe came because she had become interested in James Potter and was beginning to accept him and his ways (of looking at things/people).

And then in the two memories Lily is moving away from Snape so visibly that he was worried and needed reassurance from her. In the SWM his own mistake gave her an excuse to break it off IMO.

The most wonderful thing which I find very moving is that I feel Snape understood that. He tried a lot; in one memory he is even telling her that he won't let her be friends with them; he wants her to tell him they are friends and all that; but I think between that memory and the SWM, he had realised that Lily was torn and she wanted something he could not give her and when he realised that she could not even see how sorry he was, I think he went away.

Quote:
As for the option that Lily didn't appreciate Snape enough, in what ways do people believe did she not appreciate him enough?
The strange thing after all my negative points about Lily is that I do think she appreciated him. A lot. I don't think she ever stopped loving him. I think again it is about the choices and Lily chose to break off with Snape, because he could not fit into the life she wanted at that time.

His friendship with Avery and Mulciber and his insult to her in the SWM gave her the opportunity to break it off.

Lily was young, immature and selfish. Perhaps she could not return the generosity that Snape gave to the friendship. Or the loyalty. IMO


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  #36  
Old January 30th, 2010, 5:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith
Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot
When she says that he has made his choice and she's made hers, he really has no choice but to go back to friends in his own house. Lily is his only friend outside of Slytherin, and she's done with him. He couldn't earn back her affection even if he had left school at that point and never talked to Mulciber again. JMO
He had made his choice - to follow the Dark path. She had made hers - to follow the Light path. The Mudblood remark opens her eyes to that fact. Had he actually effected positive change in his life and turned his back on the Dark side, I believe firmly that he could at least have salvaged the friendship because Lily's statement is about his behavior and his choices, not about him being somehow worthless as a human being.
I understand that we are supposed to believe that it is very clear and cut and dried about the two paths. Where I differ is in what the two paths actually meant for a sixteen year old Hogwarts student who is limited by circumstances that he can't change.

And in that respect, there is no way that Severus could completely shun his housemates, nor ever be seen in the company of Mulciber and others, and spend all his spare time wooing Lily back. He would become an outcast in Slytherin, and still a target for the Gryffindors.

So when Lily dumped him, where else could he go? He had nowhere to go, as he was probably disliked by the other two houses as well, as shown in SWM.

It would actually have been a lose-lose proposition for Snape, even though he could have kept his romantic aspirations towards Lily alive. However, nothing can convince me that Lily would have dumped James for Severus, which would have been the only outcome Snape wanted. Even if he had become St. Severus of Slytherin, I don't think it would have made any difference to Lily in the romance department, mainly because of her remark about making excuses to her friends "for years." He was a liability to her socially, and she was well aware of that. For whatever reason, either due to his looks or his Slytherin personality, Lily did not see him as the right one for her, and I don't think that would change (sorry to JKR, but I don't believe it).

JMO


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  #37  
Old January 30th, 2010, 5:46 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
It would actually have been a lose-lose proposition for Snape, even though he could have kept his romantic aspirations towards Lily alive. However, nothing can convince me that Lily would have dumped James for Severus, which would have been the only outcome Snape wanted. Even if he had become St. Severus of Slytherin, I don't think it would have made any difference to Lily in the romance department, mainly because of her remark about making excuses to her friends "for years." He was a liability to her socially, and she was well aware of that. For whatever reason, either due to his looks or his Slytherin personality, Lily did not see him as the right one for her, and I don't think that would change (sorry to JKR, but I don't believe it)
I agree. It was a poor, unpopular, ugly Slytherin boy against rich, popular, handsome Qudditch star of Gryffindor House. There are options that never win.


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  #38  
Old January 30th, 2010, 6:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I understand that we are supposed to believe that it is very clear and cut and dried about the two paths. Where I differ is in what the two paths actually meant for a sixteen year old Hogwarts student who is limited by circumstances that he can't change.

And in that respect, there is no way that Severus could completely shun his housemates, nor ever be seen in the company of Mulciber and others, and spend all his spare time wooing Lily back. He would become an outcast in Slytherin, and still a target for the Gryffindors.

So when Lily dumped him, where else could he go? He had nowhere to go, as he was probably disliked by the other two houses as well, as shown in SWM.

It would actually have been a lose-lose proposition for Snape, even though he could have kept his romantic aspirations towards Lily alive. However, nothing can convince me that Lily would have dumped James for Severus, which would have been the only outcome Snape wanted. Even if he had become St. Severus of Slytherin, I don't think it would have made any difference to Lily in the romance department, mainly because of her remark about making excuses to her friends "for years." He was a liability to her socially, and she was well aware of that. For whatever reason, either due to his looks or his Slytherin personality, Lily did not see him as the right one for her, and I don't think that would change (sorry to JKR, but I don't believe it).

JMO
Well, SIP, you know and I know that our differences on the Severus-Lily relationship are irreconcilable.

For starters, I reject the peer pressure argument out of hand: i.e., poor Severus was trapped and did not have any choice. Of course he had a choice. People overcome peer pressure all the time, in equally harrowing circumstances. Kids do it in gang-infested neighborhoods, endangering their own lives in order to do the right thing. I've done it personally in a drug-infested college dormitory - with serious consequences, I assure you. Given the dominance of choice as a theme in the series, arguing that Severus had no choice seems to argue against the point of the story. He had a choice, and he made the wrong one. I personally think that I'm respecting him, not disrespecting him, by acknowledging that.

As for the friendship/romance, I was first of all talking about the friendship. He's not going to have a romance if he doesn't have her friendship. He needs to be at least on speaking terms. IMO, all he needed to do in order to salvage her good opinion of him and to get back on speaking terms with her was change his life and stand up to the peer pressure of his housemates. He didn't have to go wooing her to ensure that they could be at least on speaking terms.

And like other posters have said before in this never-ending debate, Hogwarts was not a prison. If Severus could not have gone to Slughorn with his concerns, he could have gone to Dumbledore and told him he wanted to extricate himself from the Dark Arts pressure and the blood purity pressure in Slytherin. But he didn't. Not until there were very serious consequences of the choices he'd made in school.

As for James/Lily... I honestly don't think James has anything to do with anything on Lily's end. But "Mudblood" certainly had a lot to do with everything.

So long story short... I answered "Kind of."

Anyway, irreconcilable differences, as I said before. We're not going to resolve this.


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  #39  
Old January 30th, 2010, 6:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
He had a choice, and he made the wrong one. I personally think that I'm respecting him, not disrespecting him, by acknowledging that.
I agree. I think it was the point of showing Harry this memory.

BTW, my choice was the pony option. Nothing compares to a pony.


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  #40  
Old January 30th, 2010, 6:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Lily was young, immature and selfish. Perhaps she could not return the generosity that Snape gave to the friendship. Or the loyalty. IMO
I think the only young, selfish and immature person in this pairing was Snape. I don't think Snape showed Lily any loyalty at all, and the only thing I could see him being generous with, was a racial insult. If you are loyal to a friend you do not insult them when they are trying to help you. I love the Snape who turned to the light. But IMO he had to do a 180 degree turn when he did so.
That Snape loved Lily in his way, I don't dispute. But like everything else in his life, Snape had to grow into a better love by becoming a better man. Lily had to grow as well, but she never had to grow into a better person. She only had to grow into her potential, warrior for the Light, the other half of her marraige, and mother to her son. All this she did on her own. This is of coursae my opinion only.


 
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