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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2



View Poll Results: Was Lily a good friend to Snape?
No, she should have tried harder to keep him away from the dark side. 14 9.52%
Kind of. She probably did her best but gave up a little easily. 48 32.65%
Yes, she was. But friendships end all the time and she had good reason to sever their ties. 72 48.98%
Yes. I believe that she should have ended their friendship earlier. 23 15.65%
I don't fully agree with any of the options and will state my opinion in a post. 15 10.20%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #1461  
Old June 30th, 2008, 9:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
We know very little of Quirrel's classes in PS/SS, save that they were considered "a bit of a joke". We know nothing of what Harry was taught right away. For all we know, Quirrell went right into talking about his travels with African Princes and zombies.
We can guess at things, but unless there's direct evidence, it is just a guess without need to cite the source.
I respect your view, but I feel the title of the class would be enough. I think it would be fairly evident to her that one does not have to defend against something good; Lily was said to be smart by one professor in canon (HBP).

Quote:
That is true. Many people at Hogwarts do not like Slytherin House. But that does not have much to do with the Dark Arts-- a topic not touched upon in that scene on the train.
I feel that since Lily had a friend in Slytherin house, when the first person indicated the rivalry to her, she would ask what the big deal was. That is when I believe the explanation would be made.

Quote:
We do not see Snape "immediately" do anything that would perturb anyone enough for that to occur. Eventually, definitely. Lily says her friends have complained about Snape before. But not immediately...unless her friends were troubled that Snape was a Slytherin?
Being a Slytherin would be enough, in my judgment, if we base it on Harry's school term about which canon states that Gryffindors and Slytherins disliked one another on principle (HBP-Slug Club). And the behavior on the train indicates this rivalry was already in place in Lily and Snape's year. In my opinion, they would express the same view of Slytherins that those in Harry's year did - indicating it was the house of Voldemort and the other negative things Ron told Harry about on the train (PS/SS). I believe she would learn of Death Eaters and the like right away because Voldemort had begun his party and tales of his nefarious deeds would rapidly sweep across the school grapevine.

Quote:
Snape did not call either Petunia or Lily "Mudblood" prior to SWM. He derisively called Petunia a "Muggle", and that's all.

Pardon, that is correct; I meant the derisive nature of his remark about Muggles in comparison to those already calling muggleborns "mudblood" when Lily arrived. Lily would also note who Snape was becoming friendly with and I feel these would be the people who would be doing it (i.e., Lucius).

I do not feel there is any canon to support the idea that Lily and Snape could exist in a vaccuum while attending Hogwarts; I feel they would be privy to all of the same influences, knowledge and interaction that we saw Harry undergo. Lily was an outgoing and curious little girl in my opinion (based on the memories) and I do believe she would be the same way with her housemates. JKR said she was popular, which she would not have been in my opinion if she were a timid loner who did not associate with any of her housemates. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; June 30th, 2008 at 9:17 pm.
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  #1462  
Old July 1st, 2008, 1:08 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily, because, it seems like he had never had any friends before, and she seemed, adventorus, a very interesting person, and a very kind person, something he was obviously (as seen in the penseive) not used to seeing at his home, she was also very well groomed, he as described in Deathly Hallows, was not, she, assuming how Petunia talked about Spinners End, probably lived in a very nice house, whereas he lived in a very poor house, so I can see him being nervous about approaching, because he was afraid of how she would react to someone like him, talking to her and Petunia, Snape probably guessed, would not like him, so he was probably a little afraid of, her rejecting him for a friend, because Petunia rejected him.
I don't think Snape would've been that interested in her if she wasn't magical.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Lily was very kind and was eager to make new friends. I do think she would have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
Lily seemd like the peace maker; the one who, Snape could talk to, about his home life, the Marauders bullying him, and she would listen to him and try and figure out a way to help him and Snape seemed like the fighter, one who tried to keep their friendship going, even though she eventually did give-up.
As for them being equal, Hogwarts students, probably saw Lily, as a better friend and and an all-around better peron than Snape. But I think Lily saw them both as equal and I think Snape probably saw Lily as a better person and friend then she was. But I think it was, at one time (before Snape got involve in the Dark Arts), a friendship of equals.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Hogwarts obviously, did not help there friendship. He was unpopular, she was popular; he was a Slytherin, she was a Gryffindor, thos combinations obviously don't go well together.
I think Lily worked very hard, to mantain the friendship and often told him he needed to give up the Dark Arts, but once he called her a 'mudblood' that was the last staw for her.
I think Snape worked much harder to mantain the friendship, but failed miserably, even after he knew she didn't want to be friends with him anymore he seemed to, still try and convince her to be friends with him.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't think Gryffindor changed Lily that much, but I do think Slytherin change Sanpe alot; being in Slytherin there were alot of, kids, who were Death Eater's kids, racist and sly and being around that often, change Snape and made Snape, act like that.
I don't think Lily would've changed that much if she had been in a different house but I do think Snapt would have, if he had been in any other house, that was such a negative place, he would've turned out aot differiently, Avery and Mulcibler and his other futuere Death Eater friends wouldn't've accepted him and more people would have accepter him, seeing as Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, are alot more liked, by other people, than Slytherin, so more than likeley, he would not have ended up in same path he was going down. So therefore there friendship would have changed dramtiacally to.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it was all of that mixed together, Snape being involve in the Dark Arts, Sape having the friends he did and finally calling, Lily a mudblood, that was the last straw for her.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I don't think there were any different choices, beside Snape changing the path that he was already destined to go down.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I think if Snape had, took Lily's advice, they probably would have had a romantic future together.


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  #1463  
Old July 1st, 2008, 6:52 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I feel that since Lily had a friend in Slytherin house, when the first person indicated the rivalry to her, she would ask what the big deal was. That is when I believe the explanation would be made.
I agree with this and also think that would have taken place in first year, when the older students would have told Lily all about Slytherin; why, even James and Sirius may have; shocked that she a Gryffindor was friends with a Slytherin. I also think that she would have known about the dark arts, mudbloods and everything IMO.

Lily was still friends, best friends with Snape for almost five years after this, makes me feel she was not only okay with it; she also did not think wrongly of Snape for being attracted to the dark arts IMO.


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  #1464  
Old July 1st, 2008, 7:31 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Lily was still friends, best friends with Snape for almost five years after this, makes me feel she was not only okay with it; she also did not think wrongly of Snape for being attracted to the dark arts IMO.
But.. I always felt the whole point of Lily and Snape's friendship dying was because Lily did not find it okay. She expresses her disgust and opposition to the dark arts in the memory before the SWM scene quite clearly imo. IMO, she tells him quite plainly that she detests Mulciber and Avery, and lists the reasons why. They participate in dark magic - they used it on Mary McDonald, and she did not find it funny or ok imo. And this conversation takes place during their friendship. According to JKR, these were "loathsome people and acts" and Lily simply could not associate with him if he was drawn to them, imo. "I can't pretend anymore!" tells me that there was something really wrong with their relationship before the Mudblood incident even occured. I definitely think Lily found the dark arts wrong (especially since she fought against those that did participate in them later in her life when she joined the Order), and wanted to help Snape see how bad they were, and hoped he would go down the right path. In the end, she realised he was a lost cause imo.

I don't think Lily was ever okay with the dark arts when she understood what they were, and made the distinction between dark arts, and what kind of magic the marauders were using. I think Lily was friends with Snape despite that, because she wanted to help him, and didn't want to see him go down a dark path. I think that is a big reason for her staying by his side for those years.


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Last edited by DeliciousMoon; July 1st, 2008 at 7:41 am.
  #1465  
Old July 1st, 2008, 8:02 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Lily was still friends, best friends with Snape for almost five years after this, makes me feel she was not only okay with it; she also did not think wrongly of Snape for being attracted to the dark arts IMO.
I feel if that were true, Lily would have developed romantic feelings for Snape because that is what JKR said in Bloomsbury Chat. She remarked that Lily might of become interested in Snape romantically if it wasn't for his dark interests and acts. So apparently Lily was against them during their entire relationship which is why that didn't happen. Moreover, James would have never become interested in a girl who approved of the dark arts in my judgment, because he destested them. My impression of the canon is that Lily always detested the dark arts, dark interests, Voldemort and blood prejudice attitudes. This is why I feel Snape and Lily had a troubled friendship throughout and why by 5th year, she reached her limit. I believe Snape's Mudblood remark served as a catalyst for her to definitively end the friendship, but it appeared to me to be all but over in SWM in any case because she didn't speak to Snape at all during the exchange until he called her the unforgivable name - as canon puts it. She spent the whole time chatting with James. I feel the canon supports this in DH TPT and OOTP/SWM.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 1st, 2008 at 8:07 am.
  #1466  
Old July 1st, 2008, 8:12 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
We see no evidence as to when exactly Snape began on that bad path and when Lily noticed. We jump from the scene on the train in 1st year, when they're getting along perfectly fine (although Snape's a bit socially inept, bless him) to 5th year when they're arguing. We have no idea when exactly this arguing started, so to say Lily was worried for 5 years, or 3 years, or whatever is merely guesswork.
So then wouldn't that be also mean that it is merely guesswork to say Lily didn't try hard enough?

Quote:
IMO, it would have been a very gradual buildup from being on good terms 1st year to fighting 5th year. I highly doubt Snape immediately went around calling people "Mudblood" the moment he met his Slytherin comrades.
And I entirely disagree. If anything Snape probably did do just that when he was friends with the other future Death Eaters. He wanted to fit in remember.


  #1467  
Old July 1st, 2008, 8:30 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

For over five years? I cannot see that happening in any friendship. Yes, Lily would ahve been with him for some time, trying to see the person she had been best friends with. But not for over five years, both in School and in the holidays IMo.

Lily may have developed a romantic interest in Snape, but sadly for Snape, I think she fell in love with James. From that time, I think she started moving away from Snape. I think that she thought she could not possibly have both her friendship with Snape and love with James and she chose love over friendship IMO. I also think she was aware that Snape was having feelings for her; another reason she cut him off IMO.


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  #1468  
Old July 1st, 2008, 8:43 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
For over five years? I cannot see that happening in any friendship. Yes, Lily would ahve been with him for some time, trying to see the person she had been best friends with. But not for over five years, both in School and in the holidays IMo.
Lily trying to help Snape for five years? I could see her that stubborn and determined, for sure. I think it's easier to pretend there's nothing wrong when you're younger as well.

Quote:
Lily may have developed a romantic interest in Snape, but sadly for Snape, I think she fell in love with James.
JKR herself stated that Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape had he not been drawn to such loathsome people and acts (these are the concerns she lays in front of him in the memory before SWM, where she clearly shows what's bothering her imo). James is not mentioned as a reason. Since she rejects both of them after SWM, I don't think her having a crush on James during the time had much of an effect. She waited over a year afterall and I wouldn't doubt that she went out on dates with other boys in their grade (she was afterall, according to JKR, quite popular with the boys).

Quote:
From that time, I think she started moving away from Snape. I think that she thought she could not possibly have both her friendship with Snape and love with James and she chose love over friendship IMO.
But the problem I see with this is that she rejected James at SWM and stormed off from him. She hardly "chose" James at the end of fifth year. IMO, she clearly rejected both, and moved on from both, until one of them finally changed. She did not find Snape a suitable friend anymore imo, and she did not think James a suitable boyfriend - in her opinion, both boys needed to grow up and she would have nothing to do with them until they did imo.

Quote:
I also think she was aware that Snape was having feelings for her; another reason she cut him off IMO.
I hardly think she would be so cruel as to leave Snape because she found out he had romantic feelings for her. I agree with JKR - I believe Lily left Snape because she realised she could not be friends with someone who was drawn to such loathsome people and acts. Can you imagine a death eater and an order member getting together for tea and toast and a chat? I don't think Lily could (I certainly couldn't ), and she realised that this friendship was not going to work if they continued down the paths they were headed - how could it? "You chosen your way, I've chosen mine," I think sums it up perfectly.


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Last edited by DeliciousMoon; July 1st, 2008 at 9:09 am.
  #1469  
Old July 1st, 2008, 10:25 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
Lily trying to help Snape for five years? I could see her that stubborn and determined, for sure. I think it's easier to pretend there's nothing wrong when you're younger as well.
But helping someone is not the same as being best friends. And she was only 11 when she would have certainly known about the dark arts and their *evilness* and would have also known that this was what Snape was addicted to. LOL she was not a saint or a martyr that she would have tried from that time until the SWM IMO. She would have left him long, long back. This is the most important and telling factor (that they were friends for over 5 years) which makes me feel that Lily also read over Snape's shoulders. I think she did not think it was wrong to read or know the dark arts; but to practise them and of that Snape was not guilty until he became a DE after leaving School IMO.

Quote:
But the problem I see with this is that she rejected James at SWM and stormed off from him. She hardly "chose" James at the end of fifth year. IMO, she clearly rejected both, and moved on from both, until one of them finally changed. She did not find Snape a suitable friend anymore imo, and she did not think James a suitable boyfriend - in her opinion, both boys needed to grow up and she would have nothing to do with them until they did imo.
The SWM and the werewolf memory pulls down Lily's character so much IMO that I initially started out by saying she was not a friend at all to Snape; and used to wonder just what he saw in her that he clung to her so much. LOL I concluded love was really and truly blind IMO.

I kept comparing her with Hermione and even now I think Lily falls low under such comparison IMO.

In both the SWM and the werewolf incident what strikes me is the indiffernce and the scorn with which she treats Snape. And I think that is not because of Snape's dark arts addiction; had it been only that I think she would have been angry; furious, but she would not have been so scornful of him as I think she was. I think that was because she was no longer his friend; she no longer cared IMO. As she moved away, I think her concerns also changed. While I don't blame her for wanting to end a friendship, she did not wish to keep; I don't think I can believ she did her best or that she left only when she knew Snape could not be saved any longer IMO.

For, Snape was neither a death eater and nor was he practising the dark arts on others IMO.

Quote:
I hardly think she would be so cruel as to leave Snape because she found out he had romantic feelings for her.
This is exactly what I think happened; but I don;t see her as cruel; only immature; I think she could not deal with both Snape and James IMO


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Spotlight on Snape and Molly

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  #1470  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:09 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
For, Snape was neither a death eater and nor was he practising the dark arts on others IMO.
I respect your view, however, the canon is not clear when Snape actually joined the Death Eaters. It could be that he was already a Death Eater when Lily ended the friendship and that is why he met her question with silence. Regulus joined at 16 and Snape was 16 at that time. I feel we saw Snape practicing dark magic on others in SWM and Lily was present in that scene as well.


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  #1471  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:18 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

From the words Lily spoke to Snape the night of the SWM, I think it is clear that he was not a death eater at the time IMO.

DH - TPT'You don't deny that what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" Bold mine


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Spotlight on Snape and Molly

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  #1472  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:27 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

I meant Lily didn't know, only Snape would know that. That is perhaps why he met the statement you provided with silence; because he'd already joined, but didn't wish to admit it. Snape believed joining would impress Lily according to JKR (Bloomsbury Chat), but I feel she made it clear that night that it would not impress her "you chose your path and I chose mine" - plus the statement you provided also shows she was against the whole dark arts regime, so I believe Snape understood at that point that it wouldn't impress her and may have been tongue tied because he didn't wish to admit he'd already joined.


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  #1473  
Old July 1st, 2008, 3:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
So then wouldn't that be also mean that it is merely guesswork to say Lily didn't try hard enough?
Sure. Lily could have tried harder. Snape could have tried harder. Pink elephants could have rampaged through Hogwarts right after the events of SWM. Anything that isn't in canon is an analysis or opinion based off what we do have.

We can, however, evaluate how effective the strategies Lily definitely did employ were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
And I entirely disagree. If anything Snape probably did do just that when he was friends with the other future Death Eaters. He wanted to fit in remember.
And despite only having known him for a year or so prior to Hogwarts, Lily would have made excuses for him for five whole years...

I can't quite see that in someone like Lily. In Snape? Perhaps. He was so starved for company, he'd excuse anyone for any period of time...and he did.
Lily, not so much. She was never very alone, with a sister and loving parents, and she had only known this boy for a year or so. If he immediately started calling people "Mudblood", I don't think it would be that much of a wrench to just dump him after a couple months of this.

My guess is that their friendship grew at Hogwarts during the first year or two, to the point where despite her popularity, Lily and Snape became best friends. But then the influence of the Slytherins eventually crept into their relationship and began to taint it...

Edit: And I'd like to add that I do think he was influenced by the Slytherins in his first year, but not to the point where he'd start using the word "Mudblood". He only began with a dislike for Muggles. He had to have adopted the idea that all Muggleborns (except Lily) were scum over time. People don't change their views at the drop of a hat.


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Last edited by ignisia; July 1st, 2008 at 3:17 pm.
  #1474  
Old July 1st, 2008, 3:54 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Sure. Lily could have tried harder. Snape could have tried harder. Pink elephants could have rampaged through Hogwarts right after the events of SWM. Anything that isn't in canon is an analysis or opinion based off what we do have.

We can, however, evaluate how effective the strategies Lily definitely did employ were.



And despite only having known him for a year or so prior to Hogwarts, Lily would have made excuses for him for five whole years...

I can't quite see that in someone like Lily. In Snape? Perhaps. He was so starved for company, he'd excuse anyone for any period of time...and he did.
Lily, not so much. She was never very alone, with a sister and loving parents, and she had only known this boy for a year or so. If he immediately started calling people "Mudblood", I don't think it would be that much of a wrench to just dump him after a couple months of this.

My guess is that their friendship grew at Hogwarts during the first year or two, to the point where despite her popularity, Lily and Snape became best friends. But then the influence of the Slytherins eventually crept into their relationship and began to taint it...

Edit: And I'd like to add that I do think he was influenced by the Slytherins in his first year, but not to the point where he'd start using the word "Mudblood". He only began with a dislike for Muggles. He had to have adopted the idea that all Muggleborns (except Lily) were scum over time. People don't change their views at the drop of a hat.
I respect your view. I don't know when Snape would begin behaving like the other Slytherins outwardly - although I feel he used the dark curses he knew fairly rapidly (hence Sirius' remark). However, as you indicated, I feel Lily would put it down to the influence of Snape's friends and her discussion with him would be much as we saw it in that memory - asking why he hung around these bad influences and recommending he did not. But Snape's answer to that would be reasonable - these were his housemates, and just because he hung around them didn't mean he was like them and that he had to "go along" with them in order to have friends (regarding any participation of his own).

As we saw in the memory, Lily didn't demand he dump his only friends, rather she indicated she herself detested them - likely because she not only did not like what they were doing, but she believed that they were influencing Snape to participate in all of those things as well. I think she felt this from the time Snape began displaying any of this type of behavior clear through to the end of their friendship (although with time to a lesser degree). In my opinion, that is why Lily finally said, "I can't pretend anymore" - basically that Snape was merely under the influence of others, imo. At that point I feel she faced the fact that Snape was doing these things of his own accord.

If you think about it, Snape calling Lily a Mudblood and using the dark curse in SWM would confirm this because I feel it was likely Lily placed her belief that Snape was working under the influence of others on the fact that he was different around her. That is, around her, Snape showed his 'true persona'. I highly doubt that Snape ever used dark curses, discussed his dark interests/Voldemort or used the term Mudblood when they were hanging out. So I believe she could thus have some faith in the illusion that 'the real Snape' was the person who hung around her.

I do feel that by SWM the friendship had greatly waned and Lily was already doubting herself on the issue of Snape's true persona. That is why I believe this incident would be the straw that broke the camel's back for her, proving once and for all that Snape's true persona was what he displayed both when he was with her and when he was not.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 1st, 2008 at 3:57 pm.
  #1475  
Old July 1st, 2008, 4:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view. I don't know when Snape would begin behaving like the other Slytherins outwardly - although I feel he used the dark curses he knew fairly rapidly (hence Sirius' remark). However, as you indicated, I feel Lily would put it down to the influence of Snape's friends and her discussion with him would be much as we saw it in that memory - asking why he hung around these bad influences and recommending he did not. But Snape's answer to that would be reasonable - these were his housemates, and just because he hung around them didn't mean he was like them and that he had to "go along" with them in order to have friends (regarding any participation of his own).

As we saw in the memory, Lily didn't demand he dump his only friends, rather she indicated she herself detested them - likely because she not only did not like what they were doing, but she believed that they were influencing Snape to participate in all of those things as well. I think she felt this from the time Snape began displaying any of this type of behavior clear through to the end of their friendship (although with time to a lesser degree). In my opinion, that is why Lily finally said, "I can't pretend anymore" - basically that Snape was merely under the influence of others, imo. At that point I feel she faced the fact that Snape was doing these things of his own accord.

If you think about it, Snape calling Lily a Mudblood and using the dark curse in SWM would confirm this because I feel it was likely Lily placed her belief that Snape was working under the influence of others on the fact that he was different around her. That is, around her, Snape showed his 'true persona'. I highly doubt that Snape ever used dark curses, discussed his dark interests/Voldemort or used the term Mudblood when they were hanging out. So I believe she could thus have some faith in the illusion that 'the real Snape' was the person who hung around her.

I do feel that by SWM the friendship had greatly waned and Lily was already doubting herself on the issue of Snape's true persona. That is why I believe this incident would be the straw that broke the camel's back for her, proving once and for all that Snape's true persona was what he displayed both when he was with her and when he was not.
Excellent post! I see it the same way; in my opinion when Lily was asked by her friends why she hung out with Snape when he called Muggleborns mudbloods and practiced the Dark Arts/had friends practicing the Dark Arts, I can see Lily responding with, "But Severus isn't really like that. It's just that he's with bad company and that's why he shows that he hates Muggleborns. He isn't like that with me." I can even think of a falling out or two she might have had with a friend, when said friend was called a mudblood by Snape and Lily still tried to defend him. But I think later on Lily knew deep down that she wasn't quite being honest with herself, and that she had been making excuses all along. And when it was finally becoming too much, and Snape called her a mudblood, it was the last straw. She'd been pretending to herself that the Snape that she hung out with had been the real Snape (that is, the Snape that was nice to her knowing that she was a muggleborn, and was a good person essentially), but after SWM it was impossible for her to believe so IMO. Especially since she states, "You've chosen your way and I've chosen mine." and Snape refuses to deny her accusation that he was intending to join Voldemort.



Last edited by Snivelly; July 1st, 2008 at 4:49 pm.
  #1476  
Old July 1st, 2008, 6:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I meant Lily didn't know, only Snape would know that. That is perhaps why he met the statement you provided with silence; because he'd already joined, but didn't wish to admit it. Snape believed joining would impress Lily according to JKR (Bloomsbury Chat), but I feel she made it clear that night that it would not impress her "you chose your path and I chose mine" - plus the statement you provided also shows she was against the whole dark arts regime, so I believe Snape understood at that point that it wouldn't impress her and may have been tongue tied because he didn't wish to admit he'd already joined.
I really don't think there is any canon for the assumption that Snape became a death eater by the SWM. Not only Lily, but no one else says he was a death eater while still in school IMO.

IMO LIly's words were all wrong. She was presuming something about Snape, which was not true at that time IMO, for we don;t have anything in canon to say so. She was against the dark arts at that time; I don't think she was like that always. The timeline of their friendship is too long. I can agree with your your posts later and also Snively's if the timeline was just one year or maximum 2 years. But they were friends for more than 5 years and they were together in the holidays too IMO.

And seeing Lily knew about Snape hanging out with Avery and Co. and that I never see Snape lying to her or indeed anyone else throughout the series except, Voldemort, perhaps, if he were a DE, I think Lily would have known about it, and she would have addressed the issue during the SWM IMO.

And the *dark curse* Snape cast during the SWM is also an assumption IMO. We have nothing in canon. his Lily detests dark magic. She would have surely spoken scathing words to Snape and asked him to stop using dark magic. Sirius was there too; he would have known if that curse was dark magic; he would have shouted and also let loose some hexes on his own IMO. I don't think it was the sectumsempra or any oyther dark curse. I think it was the cutting spell, seeing that James never needed the counter, dittany or the fact he had a scar mentioned anywhere in the book IMO.


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  #1477  
Old July 1st, 2008, 6:47 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
IMO LIly's words were all wrong. She was presuming something about Snape, which was not true at that time IMO, for we don;t have anything in canon to say so.
Uh, I've always seen it the other way round. Lily's words are canon proof IMO that Snape had been delving into the Dark Arts/he had friends who were practicing the Dark Arts/he was intending to join Voldemort. Neither we, the readers, nor Harry, whose POV we see through, ever spent as much time with teenage Snape or ever knew him like Lily did. JKR often uses this method to convey information which she can't show through actual scenes; that James grew up and matured after SWM, that Ginny is a very powerful witch etc. Unless we have canon elsewhere to dispute these words, I think Lily's claims stand true. Just my opinion.



Last edited by Snivelly; July 1st, 2008 at 6:50 pm.
  #1478  
Old July 1st, 2008, 6:52 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I really don't think there is any canon for the assumption that Snape became a death eater by the SWM. Not only Lily, but no one else says he was a death eater while still in school IMO.
Actually I don't believe there is canon in the text that anyone joined early, JKR informed us that Regulus joined at 16. So that would be the only basis upon which I would find that some students joined early in the days of the 1st war. Draco too joined while just 16 (HBP).

Quote:
IMO LIly's words were all wrong. She was presuming something about Snape, which was not true at that time IMO, for we don;t have anything in canon to say so.
I would respectfully disagree. Lily asked Snape if he was planning to join, she did not accuse him of being a Death Eater. In my judgment, she did not wish to be friends with someone who was even considering joining Voldemort.

Quote:
She was against the dark arts at that time; I don't think she was like that always. The timeline of their friendship is too long. I can agree with your your posts later and also Snively's if the timeline was just one year or maximum 2 years. But they were friends for more than 5 years and they were together in the holidays too IMO.
In my opinion, this was because Snape did not exhibit his dark arts interests before Lily. Even before they reached Hogwarts he understood he had to keep some of his beliefs from her:

Deathly Hallows, TPT
"I don't want to talk to you," she said in a constricted voice.

"Why not?"

"Tuney h-hates me. Because we saw that letter from Dumbledore."

"So what?"

She threw him a look of deep dislike.

'So she's my sister!"

"She's only a-" He caught himsel quickly;

Lily, too busy trying to wipe her eyes without being noticed, did not hear him.


Quote:
And seeing Lily knew about Snape hanging out with Avery and Co. and that I never see Snape lying to her or indeed anyone else throughout the series
I would not call it lying precisely either; I feel that Snape simply did not say or do certain things when they hung out together - like in the above scene I provided. Snape knew that she was against the dark arts and Voldemort, so I feel he would not bring those things up.

Quote:
except, Voldemort, perhaps, if he were a DE, I think Lily would have known about it, and she would have addressed the issue during the SWM IMO.
In my view, if he was desisting from sharing his interest in Voldemort with her, he would certainly keep the fact that he joined up from her. JKR said he planned to join in order to impress her (Bloomsbury Chat), however, he obviously never shared that with her because otherwise she would not have asked him about it when she ended the friendship.

Quote:
And the *dark curse* Snape cast during the SWM is also an assumption IMO. We have nothing in canon. his Lily detests dark magic. She would have surely spoken scathing words to Snape and asked him to stop using dark magic. Sirius was there too; he would have known if that curse was dark magic; he would have shouted and also let loose some hexes on his own IMO. I don't think it was the sectumsempra or any oyther dark curse. I think it was the cutting spell, seeing that James never needed the counter, dittany or the fact he had a scar mentioned anywhere in the book IMO.
I respect your view. What is the cutting spell? I do not feel that there are any light cutting spells. This spell reminded me of the whipping curse that Snape used in HBP against Harry, in my opinion, these types of spells have no light purpose. We saw that for cutting food, wizards use knives which are worked by magic, they did not cut with their wands (Molly and Fleur in the kitchen OOTP/DH). So I don't believe there is a light use for a spell that cuts humans for the purpose of drawing blood. It was not terribly injurious as used in SWM, but I believe it dangerous, for example if it cut a person's eye or cut more profoundly or caused multiple cuts. I feel it was Sectumsempra controlled.

Nonetheless, in my judgment, Lily would not approve of Snape using this curse against people, whatever it was. This is the type of behavior that I don't believe Snape would normally exhibit in front of Lily. That was just before the scene in which Lily ended the friendship and the two had not seen one another inbetween those scenes based on their conversation. In that final scene, Lily didn't complain about things she had complained about in memory #5, so she didn't mention everything bothering her, I feel she was merely ending the friendship and menitoned enough to allow Snape to understand she felt he was on a dark path and she was on a light path and as such, they could no longer be friends.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 1st, 2008 at 6:55 pm.
  #1479  
Old July 1st, 2008, 10:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
My guess is that their friendship grew at Hogwarts during the first year or two, to the point where despite her popularity, Lily and Snape became best friends. But then the influence of the Slytherins eventually crept into their relationship and began to taint it...

Edit: And I'd like to add that I do think he was influenced by the Slytherins in his first year, but not to the point where he'd start using the word "Mudblood". He only began with a dislike for Muggles. He had to have adopted the idea that all Muggleborns (except Lily) were scum over time. People don't change their views at the drop of a hat.
And I respect what you think, but I disagree. I believe that Snape was brought up in a hostile environment that supported that mindset. And when he came to Hogwarts it only flourished. I am not saying he used the word "Mudblood" on his first day at Hogwarts, but he definitely had think that all Muggleborns were mudbloods from very early on, or he had to at least put on that face for his Slytherin friends.


  #1480  
Old July 1st, 2008, 10:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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