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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2



View Poll Results: Was Lily a good friend to Snape?
No, she should have tried harder to keep him away from the dark side. 14 9.52%
Kind of. She probably did her best but gave up a little easily. 48 32.65%
Yes, she was. But friendships end all the time and she had good reason to sever their ties. 72 48.98%
Yes. I believe that she should have ended their friendship earlier. 23 15.65%
I don't fully agree with any of the options and will state my opinion in a post. 15 10.20%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:07 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

but what lily did wasnt right either.

it was hardly stealing anyways

harry barely new about it and like i said wut would u do in tat posttion. i dont think he was thinking about stealing or anything. he was just thinging about hwo much he loved her

beautifically:
yes but sirius had friends, love everything

h would have been a worse guy then snape if he had wut snape "had"


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  #62  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:09 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
but what lily did wasnt right either.
What did Lily do that was wrong?

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it was hardly stealing anyways
How is that not considered stealing? Stealing is, by definition, the illegal taking of another's property without his or her consent.


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  #63  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly View Post
As for Snape lying - I'm not sure what you mean by that
Well, Snape tells Lily that they are best friends, but I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Snape really considered Lily as a friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
I think he valued their friendship but he behaved like a jerk. It happens.
Not from what we see on-page, IMO. I agree that he behaved horribly though, but I think jerk is putting it mildly. I didn't know what 'jerk' really meant, so I looked it up.
Google definitionsJerk: a dull stupid foolish person

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
I think that Snapes behaviour in going to Dumbledore showed that he valued Lily above everything.
I'm not contesting that at all. I meant their friendship, not Snape's romance. Lily valued it so much that she lied and made excuses for him all the time. She was willing to stand up for him when he was clearly unpopular. It doesn't appear that Snape did anything of the sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
And just because Snape's behaviour is at time disgusting, that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know how to relate to people, and that he is generally an awkward loner.
Ironically, after looking at the situations again, I saw that the only time he's shown alone is during SWM, which could just mean that his friends weren't the kind who would risk their necks for him, or that they just weren't around at the time.

We're told that he used to hang out with a gang of Slytherins who all became DEs. We're shown that he was accepted and welcomed into Slytherin by Lucius Malfoy. Sirius later calls him Malfoy's lapdog, which does indicate that they were close. He also supposedly hangs out with Avery and Mulciber, after Lucius has left. He even seems to be close to Narcissa, and perhaps, even to Bellatrix. He was also one of Slughorn's proteges, apparently. So, I can't say that he was 'socially awkward', because he seems to have had no trouble at all with all these people.

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It is easy to just write someone off as a nasty piece of work, but I would far rather pick over the minutiae of what is, to me, the most interesting character in the book. For me that means going beyond judging his behaviour and looking at the the psychology of the character and all the influences - both external and internal - that effect his behaviour.
IMO, Snape is interesting because he is not all bad. We're shown that he can be caring and even affectionate when he wants to be, and also that he chooses not to, most of the time, and that he enjoys being rude and cruel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
Let us not forget that the marauders were not averse to hexing Snape (or anyone else for that matter) "just for fun"
I'm not forgetting that at all. It's just that I'm referring to 7th year James, who had stopped doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
What we see in SWM is effectively Snape's friend (Lily) coming to help him out. Being the peacable kind she tries to get James to stop rather than hexing him back.
I think that this would be another good explanation for why Snape felt that James only ever took on him when it was four on one. James's best friend was the hotheaded kind who would rather start hexing himself than hold James back, like Lily would have done for Snape. Remus was too insecure to pull them back sternly, and Peter joined in for the 'fun'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
In other words there was particular emnity between Snape and James that meant that they continued to hex each other even after James had calmed down and stopped hexing people randomly for fun. I don't think it is meant to imply that James never initiated a hex battle, and only ever retaliated.
I completely disagree. If we strip that sentence down, we get, Snape took every opportunity to curse James, and James never let Snape get away with it. How does that imply that James initiated attacks? If Lupin wanted to convey that James started the fights, he could have said "They never missed a chance to hex each other", instead. That would have been clearer. I don't think that Lupin was downplaying it in favour of James either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
For us to have a rational discussion about Snape and Lily's relationship, does not require that Snape and Lily act rationally. (I think neither did.) It just requires us to examine the evidence in canon in a rational way, even if it is evidence of irrational actions by the characters, based on emotions not ruled by reason.
True. Neither Snape nor Lily acted rationally with regard to each other. Snape couldn't accept that Lily disapproved of his methods, or that her priorities were different, and Lily made excuses and lied because she didn't want to face the truth about Snape's behaviour.

As far as romantic feelings are concerned, though, Lily seems to be able to deal with things a lot more rationally. She liked James, even when he was an arrogant toerag, but she never let herself do anything about it, until he grew out of that phase. That tells me that Lily valued friendship a lot more than romance. She was willing to cut her friend some slack, but not her love interest. Which is another reason why I don't think SNape and Lily could have had a romantic relationship.


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  #64  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by beatifically View Post
Well, considering the fact that Harry never got the chance to even talk to his own mother, I am sure that Harry would have loved to be in posession of another picture of his mother. He even looks for it in DH, if I remember correctly.
He combs the entire room for the second half of the letter.

Quote:
Numerous characters in the HP series underwent traumatical experiences. Sirius, for one, had an abusive home, but he never succumbed to the lure of the Dark Arts or Voldemort's regime. I do not see how Snape's past - as tragic as it was - is ever an excuse for his behavior, especially since one of the biggest theme of the series is the importance of choices. Snape chose to do what he did, and that is a reflection of who he was.
The only thing Snape regretted doing as a death eater is handing over the prophecy that resulted in Lily's death. I wonder how many people he tortured and killed before that... I agree that a tragic past is absolutely no excuse. There are plenty of characters with bad pasts that did not become death eaters. Snape just loved the dark arts.


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  #65  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
but what lily did wasnt right either.
What did Lily do that was wrong?

Quote:
it was hardly stealing anyways
It was. Snape broke into Harry's house, and stole things. That's stealing, no matter how little the objects were. They were of great sentimental value to Harry, and he owned them.

Quote:
harry barely new about it and like i said wut would u do in tat posttion. i dont think he was thinking about stealing or anything. he was just thinging about hwo much he loved her
Just because real people would do that in a situation, it doesn't make it right. And if he was thinking about how much he loved her, then I suppose love blinded him from realizing that he committed a crime.


  #66  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:11 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
So do I. It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved?
I have to disagree. He didn't falsely love her, he probably loved her too much. But you're only 14/15, so I don't expect you to understand Brian.


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  #67  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
I have to disagree. He didn't falsely love her, he probably loved her too much. But you're only 14/15, so I don't expect you to understand Brian.
Of course... But actually, his feelings started when they were only ten/eleven. I just don't think it's possible to truly love someone like that at such a young age. He was obsessed with her too much, but I don't think he loved her too much. Just my opinion.


  #68  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post


I can't speak for others, but my problem is not that he wished to make himself feel better, but rather that he resorted to thievery to do so - and he stole the items from Harry, who he knew would treasure them and had a right to treasure them, more than Snape did (he was the owner, it was his family). One can't justify stealing a family heirloom.
To be honest, it doesn't upset me because I think it's wrong, well it is wrong, but it upsets me more because he was so deep in grief etc., that he had to resort to stealing a photograph.


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  #69  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifically
Technically, Snape was committing a crime by stealing a photo that didn't belong to him. Some fans are bothered by this because the photo belonged to Harry who barely had any photos of his mother. I think that Harry should have had the picture - after all, he, unlike Snape, didn't have any memories of Lily.
Well I wouldn't have begrudged Snape the photo in the circumstances and I don't think Harry did either once he knew who had taken the photo and why.
I really don't see it as stealing (though technically it is) - probably because Harry had owned the house for over a year and had never thought to search it for momentoes of Sirius or his parents, so I just don't think that Harry had a need for it in the way that Snape did.
I don't find that scene disturbing just incredibly sad! I cannot begin to imagine how Severus was feeling at that time having just killed Dumbledore - the only other true friend he'd ever had. I think Harry understands this, understands Snape's need at that time for a scrap of comfort and I don't think Harry begrudged him that. If Harry is okay with it then I don't see why it should bother anyone else - afterall it was his photo of his family.
Is it wrong for a starving person to steal bread?
Is it wrong for a person starved of affection and in desperate need to steal a potion (ETA I meant portion)of a photo?
I would say no to both.


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  #70  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
I have to disagree. He didn't falsely love her, he probably loved her too much. But you're only 14/15, so I don't expect you to understand Brian.
I think bringing age into this and using it as a sign of ignorance is pretty rude.

I believe Snape falsely loved Lily because he never listened to her and paid attention only to what he wanted to hear. And in so doing this he missed such a huge part of Lily as a person. Even acquaintances of Lily would have known she was opposed to the dark arts, as she was very open with that sort of thing. Snape never got it. There is also no way he could have truly loved the Lily in the picture, because this Lily had grown from the Lily he was friends with at age 15.


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  #71  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:16 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Of course... But actually, his feelings started when they were only ten/eleven. I just don't think it's possible to truly love someone like that at such a young age. He was obsessed with her too much, but I don't think he loved her too much. Just my opinion.
Aw I was joking!

But yes, I agree with you in a sense. I doubt he loved her in the full sense of the word when he was 10/11, he liked her obviously, but those feelings didn't progress into love until he was older.


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  #72  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
Aw I was joking!

But yes, I agree with you in a sense. I doubt he loved her in the full sense of the word when he was 10/11, he liked her obviously, but those feelings didn't progress into love until he was older.
Don't worry, I knew that.

Well, I didn't see his feelings for her as love really, more as a teenage boy with a false idea of lovegoing crazy about a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him. All IMO.


  #73  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
Aw I was joking!
Missed that sorry.

Snape did obsess over Lily too much. He tended to obsess over a lot of things. Just another flaw of his character Lily wasn't too fond of.. I definitely think Snape had obsessive love for a false image of Lily.


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  #74  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by CathyWeasly View Post
Well I wouldn't have begrudged Snape the photo in the circumstances and I don't think Harry did either once he knew who had taken the photo and why.
Of course Harry didn't, but I can't feel the same way as he does. I find the fact that Harry never got the chance to talk to his parents properly heartbreaking (as you can tell by my signature ) and that leads to my irritation with how Snape ripped the picture in half.

Quote:
I really don't see it as stealing (though technically it is) - probably because Harry had owned the house for over a year and had never thought to search it for momentoes of Sirius or his parents, so I just don't think that Harry had a need for it in the way that Snape did.
Even though Harry hadn't gone through that house doesn't mean that the photo was still his. It was and I see no justification for stealing it without Harry's consent.

And I disagree - Harry did need it for his parents provided him strength. I can't agree that an orphan does not need reminders of his or her parents. Harry did, after all, take the only portion of the photograph with him on his journey to hunt Horcruxes.


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  #75  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
Don't worry, I knew that.

Well, I didn't see his feelings for her as love really, more as a teenage boy with a false idea of lovegoing crazy about a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him. All IMO.
Yes but who's to say that a teenage boy going crazy for a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him isn't love? I think it is love, but this is just my opinion.


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  #76  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
okaii heres where i thiink lily went wrong:

she befriends him.... but at skool she wont hang out with him

so wut does she want? him to be a loner

so he talks to some other slytherins

these slytherins use mudblood as a commmon day word

it spreads to snape, he tries not to use it but its there in his language

then he uses it and lily dpesnt forgive him? ***? no mann, since she didnt forgive him i thinks its an excuse to get rid of him... and then she marries er "best friends" worst enemy, and so really its her fault more than snapes u noe?
She left snape for a reason, though. I don't think it was only the fact that he said Mudblood sometimes, but that he was hanging around with Death Eaters at all. That must have upset Lily a lot. And all the Death Eaters blanned to torture Muggleborns, didn't they? So obviously Liy wouldn't like that. I don't find her at fault at all.


  #77  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:31 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
She left snape for a reason, though. I don't think it was only the fact that he said Mudblood sometimes, but that he was hanging around with Death Eaters at all. That must have upset Lily a lot. And all the Death Eaters blanned to torture Muggleborns, didn't they? So obviously Liy wouldn't like that. I don't find her at fault at all.
but see she wouldnt chill with him at skool so wut does she want? a loner?
just cuz he TALKED to death eaters (soon to be death eaters not yet) doesnt mean he was gonna be one

i think she w was looking for and excuse to throw him away

y would u give up friendships like that so easliy?


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  #78  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:32 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
okaii heres where i thiink lily went wrong:

she befriends him.... but at skool she wont hang out with him
Actually we do see them hanging out at school, so I don't know where you got this assumption.

Quote:
so wut does she want? him to be a loner
She didn't want a friend who wanted to join a group of people who wanted to kill people like her. She didn't want a friend who found preforming dark arts on girls funny. She gave Snape five years to change and realised that he never would and was only going further down the dark path, even with her trying to help him. What more should she have done?

Quote:
so he talks to some other slytherins
He talks to the Slytherins because they share a common interest in the dark arts and becoming death eaters. They also share a common room, so they'd have plenty of other chances to talk. Lily didn't have to be Snape's only friend.

Quote:
these slytherins use mudblood as a commmon day word

it spreads to snape, he tries not to use it but its there in his language
He uses it before he called Lily a mudblood and he believes in what he is saying because he joined the death eaters. He had an issue with muggleborns even as a child before Hogwarts which I got from his long pause after Lily's question, "does being muggleborn make a difference".

Quote:
then he uses it and lily dpesnt forgive him? ***? no mann, since she didnt forgive him i thinks its an excuse to get rid of him... and then she marries er "best friends" worst enemy, and so really its her fault more than snapes u noe?
Why should Lily forgive someone like that? She loved James - she shouldn't have married him because an old friend who never listened to her and joined a group trying to kill her didn't like the man?!


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  #79  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
she befriends him.... but at skool she wont hang out with him

so wut does she want? him to be a loner
Since when did Lily not hang out with him? Can you please provide canon to support this? We do see from DH that she did hang out with him so I am in disagreement with this statement. Of course Lily didn't hang out with Snape all the time and she has every right to hang out with other people - she had other friends, too.

Quote:
so he talks to some other slytherins

these slytherins use mudblood as a commmon day word

it spreads to snape, he tries not to use it but its there in his language
The only person to be blamed for that is Snape himself, not Lily.

Quote:
then he uses it and lily dpesnt forgive him? ***? no mann, since she didnt forgive him i thinks its an excuse to get rid of him...
Are you suggesting that Snape is justified for using a racial slur against his "best friend"? I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

And that was not the only reason why Lily dropped her friendship with Snape. She stopped being friends with him because of his attraction to the Dark Arts (which he found amusing when used against others), his friendships with future Death Eaters, his desire to be a Death Eater, and his use of slurs against people.

The fact that Snape used Mudblood against her isn't what got her to end the friendship, it's her realization that Snape is becoming a person that went against her morals. I see no reason to fault a person for sticking to his or her morals.

Quote:
and then she marries er "best friends" worst enemy, and so really its her fault more than snapes u noe?
Why is her love for James something bad about her? She wasn't best friends with Snape when she married James. She had every right to marry the love of her life.


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  #80  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Indeed, he has an albumful, a gift from Hagrid.

He also has, if he wants them, memories of his mother, in the form of Snape's dying gift to him.

Of course, Snape lived and died the year of DH, believing that Harry would certainly and unavoidably die, so he would not have expected Harry to be in a position to enjoy either the photo or the memories (or the letter). Further, by including the memory of himself tearing the photo among those he gave Harry, Snape ensured that if Harry wants both the letter and the photo, he can have them. I am confident in suggesting that Harry needs do no more than recover Snape's body from the Shack and repossess them.

I wonder whether he did, or whether he decided they should be buried with Snape.
I don't get it, so if you know a dying man has eight motorcycles it is righteous to steal all the motorcyle parts from one of his bikes that you need for yourself? I don't see the logic that makes that act right. Plus the uniqueness of that photo could not be made up for by 'other photos' depicting Harry's parents. That photo was of the family having a good time together.

The fact that Snape knew Harry had to walk to his death, and might wish to spend his last moments on earth with all of his earthly treasures only serves as a further reason Snape should not have nicked the items.

I would imagine Harry did repossess his beloved treasures that did not belong to Snape - if he could find them. You assume they were on his person, but Snape could have placed them anywhere. For Harry to have to go upon a quest and search all of kingdom come for the items prior to walking to his death woud be a ludicrous thought for Snape to have in justifying his action, imo.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; March 29th, 2008 at 11:41 pm.
 
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