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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2



View Poll Results: Was Lily a good friend to Snape?
No, she should have tried harder to keep him away from the dark side. 14 9.52%
Kind of. She probably did her best but gave up a little easily. 48 32.65%
Yes, she was. But friendships end all the time and she had good reason to sever their ties. 72 48.98%
Yes. I believe that she should have ended their friendship earlier. 23 15.65%
I don't fully agree with any of the options and will state my opinion in a post. 15 10.20%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #41  
Old March 29th, 2008, 8:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Whether Snape couldn't, or wouldn't, let go of his feelings for Lily seems semantics to me. He shouldn't have, and he shouldn't be expected to, as I see it.
Why?


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  #42  
Old March 29th, 2008, 8:47 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
I think if you actually make an effort to get over it, you can still lead a happy life with other romantic partners. I've been a victum of unrequited love, and I'll never forget the person I had the feelings for, but those feelings have died down quite a bit now (it was easier since I hardly see him anymore) and I was able to move on. I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't.
You would not forget that person, you said, and I think Snape could not either; added to that was also the fact Lily died and that he had a part in her death; so Snape had loved, lost and was also responsible for the death of that love; the fact he was operating as he did in the books IMO is plain amazing. I think a weaker person would have broken down.

Instead Snape turns and from then on, works unceasingly against Voldemort.

And I also belive that moving on cannot be generalized; Snape too ate, slept, spied, refereed Quidditch matches (okay match) brewed potions, probaby invented a lot more spells and made a lot more corrections to the Advanced Potion making text; he lived too; and he lived with a purpose and a noble one at that.

But I think he was unable to love anyone else as he did Lily; he was not an extrovert who could open up easily. Lily was probably the only one who knew about him, Severus fully. I don't think anybody else knew him as well; not even Dumbledore and he knew Snape enough to trust him with the task of killing him and handing over the message to Harry.

Quote:
I agree, which is why I don't think Snape was truly in love with Lily. It was love, don't get me wrong. But I believe he loved an image of her he created in his head and I believe so because his ignorance of her strong morals which she openly proclaimed and the fact he never seemed to listen to her. He heard what he wanted to hear. Imo, it was not Lily Potter he was in love with, or even the Lily Evans that left him in his 5th year.
I respectfully disagree; because I think Snape had no illusions about Lily and I also don't think he was loving some image he had created of her in his head. He loved her and because she loved him back the love he had for her as a friend changed to a romantic love; but Lily did not love him like that.

He did not listen to her; but just because he loves her, should he listen to her? The death eaters IMO offered Snape power and a muggle free world; Snape could not IMO look past it.

Now, after seeing what his choice of becoming a death eater would do, Snape may not choose the DEs if he was presented with such a choice again; but at that time, he wanted both; Lily and power. He was foolish to think everything would be fine; that was his mistake, but I cannot agree that just because he loved her, he should listen to her only.

Of course had he listened to her he would not have suffered so much, but that was where IMO snape was blinded by his want and the lack of such things in his life until then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
Love isn't like that IMO and in my experience, even if it leaves you feeling horrible inside, you would still have that over not feeling anything at all.


Quote:
What a lovely post. That moved me a little bit I have to say. I agree with everything that you said.
Thank you

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Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
I think also the fact that Lily died had a huge impact on the fact that Snape never got over her; coupled with the fact that he must have felt in some way responsible for her death because it was him who told LV about the prophecy.
I agree.

Quote:
If Lily had lived and as the years went by maybe he would have eventually got over her.
I would like to think so as well. While he would have never forgotten her, perhaps he could have moved on, but well...


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  #43  
Old March 29th, 2008, 8:54 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
It is irrational in the sense I feel it cannot be explained. Love is basically acceptance. We see that with Snape. He accepts Lily's rejection, he accepts Lily's love for James, he accepts that love has borne fruit in the form of Harry, he accepts she does not want to have to do anything with him, and he also accepts that she would never love him IMO.
After I read The Prince's Tale I thought Snape accepted that Lily had romantic feelings for another man, the person he loathed until the day he died. I don't know if he did really accept it, though, now that I've read that chapter a few times. Snape ripped up the picture with Lily and her family and kept the part for Lily for himself, leaving James and Harry behind. I always felt uneasy with the symbolism behind it, and it's left me with the impression that Snape never really accepted Lily's choice in who she'd spend the rest of her life with.


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  #44  
Old March 29th, 2008, 8:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Why?
While you asked zgirnius, I would also like to answer.

Because IMO that was his private affair; his choice to be in love or to move on.


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  #45  
Old March 29th, 2008, 9:00 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But I think he was unable to love anyone else as he did Lily; he was not an extrovert who could open up easily. Lily was probably the only one who knew about him, Severus fully. I don't think anybody else knew him as well; not even Dumbledore and he knew Snape enough to trust him with the task of killing him and handing over the message to Harry.
I don't think Snape would let himself open up to anyone else. That does not mean that he was unable to love anyone else.

Quote:
I respectfully disagree; because I think Snape had no illusions about Lily and I also don't think he was loving some image he had created of her in his head. He loved her and because she loved him back the love he had for her as a friend changed to a romantic love; but Lily did not love him like that.
Listening to a person is a key factor to getting to know them as a person. If Snape only listened to Lily when she said something he wanted to hear, and ignored her morals and opinions that he disagreed with, how could he have gotten to know her as the person she really was?


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  #46  
Old March 29th, 2008, 9:12 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I respectfully disagree; because I think Snape had no illusions about Lily and I also don't think he was loving some image he had created of her in his head. He loved her and because she loved him back the love he had for her as a friend changed to a romantic love; but Lily did not love him like that.
Snape wasn't thinking about a 15 year old Lily. He would have left the photo intact if that were the case. Snape ripped and stole the picture of a 21 year old Lily - that is the woman he wanted for himself and the one he imagined. Unfortunately, he didn't know that woman or what being in love with her would be like, but he imagined it and he liked what he imagined.

I would call that having illusions that Lily was the perfect woman for him to be in love with because he couldn't know that, but he believed it anyway. the only person she was romantic with (that we know of) is James. So James would know what it was like to be in love with a mature Lily - and be loved in return by her in a romantic way. I don't see how Sanpe could know that - as far as we know, he never had a girlfriend he was in love with his whole life. In that case he would not only have no idea what being in love really meant AND he'd have know idea what being in love with Lily was like. Snape, imo, had unrequited love for a vision.


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  #47  
Old March 29th, 2008, 9:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifically View Post
After I read The Prince's Tale I thought Snape accepted that Lily had romantic feelings for another man, the person he loathed until the day he died. I don't know if he did really accept it, though, now that I've read that chapter a few times. Snape ripped up the picture with Lily and her family and kept the part for Lily for himself, leaving James and Harry behind. I always felt uneasy with the symbolism behind it, and it's left me with the impression that Snape never really accepted Lily's choice in who she'd spend the rest of her life with.
I don't think Snape accepted it. The way he treated Harry is evidence for that.


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  #48  
Old March 29th, 2008, 9:31 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack View Post
I don't think Snape accepted it. The way he treated Harry is evidence for that.
I agree completely. Snape's treatment of Harry (living proof that Lily preferred another man over him) makes it clear to me that Snape never accepted Lily's choice. Him tearing the photo also has some powerful symbolism behind it.

Quote:
WWB
Snape wasn't thinking about a 15 year old Lily. He would have left the photo intact if that were the case. Snape ripped and stole the picture of a 21 year old Lily - that is the woman he wanted for himself and the one he imagined. Unfortunately, he didn't know that woman or what being in love with her would be like, but he imagined it and he liked what he imagined.

I would call that having illusions that Lily was the perfect woman for him to be in love with because he couldn't know that, but he believed it anyway. the only person she was romantic with (that we know of) is James. So James would know what it was like to be in love with a mature Lily - and be loved in return by her in a romantic way. I don't see how Sanpe could know that - as far as we know, he never had a girlfriend he was in love with his whole life. In that case he would not only have no idea what being in love really meant AND he'd have know idea what being in love with Lily was like. Snape, imo, had unrequited love for a vision.
I agree completely.

Imo, he did not truly know the Lily he was "best friends" with, and there was no possibly way he could have known the woman she grew up to be.


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  #49  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
I don't think Snape would let himself open up to anyone else. That does not mean that he was unable to love anyone else.
I think it would have been better for Snape to move on from his feelings for Lily. The way he felt about her remained constant for the rest of his life and it would have been a healthier choice for him to move on and let go of the grudges he has that is related to her. His love for Lily made his hatred for James worse, and because of that he unjustifiably transfers his hatred onto Harry. Had he moved on, he may have been a better person.

Quote:
Listening to a person is a key factor to getting to know them as a person. If Snape only listened to Lily when she said something he wanted to hear, and ignored her morals and opinions that he disagreed with, how could he have gotten to know her as the person she really was?
I agree, I never felt that Snape really understood who Lily was and who she stood for. In addition to what you said, he bullied her son. While he did understand why Lily died and acted on his love for Lily to protect Harry, he ignored another part of her: her disgust with bullying. It's very easy to deduce that Lily abhorred all forms of bullying by her speech in SWM, and I am at loss for why Snape didn't pay attention to that and treat her son or other students in a more mature manner. IMO, it seems like Snape only listened to what he wanted to listen when it came to Lily.


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  #50  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
I think if you actually make an effort to get over it, you can still lead a happy life with other romantic partners. I've been a victum of unrequited love, and I'll never forget the person I had the feelings for, but those feelings have died down quite a bit now (it was easier since I hardly see him anymore) and I was able to move on. I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't.
I am pretty certain he didn't want to. I think it's logical that he didn't want to - Lily comprised all the happiness in his life. Perhaps his love for her was the only thing that had ever made him happy. I wouldn't want that out of my life either.

Actually, I've been in his shoes, in a way. I've had people tell me to move on and let go but I didn't want to, because I wouldn't give up something which to me was the only thing which made sense in my life, and made me happy. Although it was as hopeless, to an outside observer, as Snape's case. By all this I don't mean that this is natural or good or healthy, but just that I think I can understand his choice very well. I feel I know what drove him, because of my own personal experience in a situation which was in a certain way similar.


  #51  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:31 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

i agree Yoana

cuz hes always had a horrible life! in his home, at skool
and when lilys gone hes really last all he has


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  #52  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia
Whoa, Snape had a sense of humor? When? I never noticed anything Snape said that was particularly funny.
Snape is one of the funniest characters in the books!
"Would you like me to do it now or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"
That is the best line in the whole series!
I also love his "You head does not have permission to be in Hogsmeade"

Quote:
Originally Posted by LinnendeBlack
I think also the fact that Lily died had a huge impact on the fact that Snape never got over her; coupled with the fact that he must have felt in some way responsible for her death because it was him who told LV about the prophecy. If Lily had lived and as the years went by maybe he would have eventually got over her. His reaction to hearing of Lily's death in Dumbledore's office in the Prince's Tale still breaks my heart everytime I read it , and it also goes a long way to explain why he never got over her.
Yes, I am of the opinion that Snape was getting on with his life, and getting over Lily, when the whole prophecy thing brought her back into his life. I think unrequited love is something that people can and do get over, but to have had a hand in their death is a completely different circumstance, and I can easily understand why Snape found it so hard to move on. It wasn't the unrequited love so much as the remorse, regret, guilt and grief that Snape couldn't get over.


I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people. He wanted a picture of Lily to comfort him during the Dark days ahead - what's wrong with that? He loathed the other two people in the picture so he removed them - it's a picture! Whatever symbolism anyone sees in it, Snape did not attempt to split the Potter family up. He may have wanted to but he didn't. The fact remains that he would rather Lily was alive and with James and Harry than dead.

I always thought Snape was going to die in book 7 - it was the only logical conclusion to his story. If anyone is interested I wrote a fanfic which is like an alternate book 7 (I wrote it before DH came out) but all about Snape and how he does move on and has a Happy Ending. I'll put a link in my sig sometime *End of Shameless plug*


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  #53  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly View Post
I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people.
Technically, Snape was committing a crime by stealing a photo that didn't belong to him. Some fans are bothered by this because the photo belonged to Harry who barely had any photos of his mother. I think that Harry should have had the picture - after all, he, unlike Snape, didn't have any memories of Lily.

Personally, I find it disturbing every time I read that chapter.

Quote:
He wanted a picture of Lily to comfort him during the Dark days ahead - what's wrong with that?
I don't think there's a problem with that but rather the measures he used in order to make sure he had Lily's comfort. As I said above, taking the picture was theft. Harry had the comfort of Lily, James, Sirius and Remus when he was talking towards his death, but he did not steal the ring.

Quote:
He loathed the other two people in the picture so he removed them - it's a picture! Whatever symbolism anyone sees in it, Snape did not attempt to split the Potter family up. He may have wanted to but he didn't. The fact remains that he would rather Lily was alive and with James and Harry than dead.
That's your interpretation of the symbolism and my interpretation differs. I see the symbolism by the way Snape ripped the picture, as if to keep Lily for himself. That, coupled with how he was willing to turn James and Harry in order to have Lily for himself (as Dumbledore says himself), disturbs me. He may have not acted on it by trying to split them up when he was alive, but the way he felt was there, and that's what bothers fans like myself.


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  #54  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:52 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifically View Post
Technically, Snape was committing a crime by stealing a photo that didn't belong to him. Some fans are bothered by this because the photo belonged to Harry who barely had any photos of his mother. I think that Harry should have had the picture - after all, he, unlike Snape, didn't have any memories of Lily.

Personally, I find it disturbing every time I read that chapter.
So do I. It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved?


  #55  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
and hary has pics of lily
i doubt snape does
Snape had memories. At that point in the book Harry did not, unless you count the instance when he heard his mother die.


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  #56  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by CathyWeasly View Post
Yes, I am of the opinion that Snape was getting on with his life, and getting over Lily, when the whole prophecy thing brought her back into his life.
Not that getting on with his life as a death eater is anything to write home to mama about, but I would agree that because he was fighting with others who were trying to kill Lily, he had likely convinced himself that he hated her for chosing James over him.

Quote:
I think unrequited love is something that people can and do get over, but to have had a hand in their death is a completely different circumstance, and I can easily understand why Snape found it so hard to move on. It wasn't the unrequited love so much as the remorse, regret, guilt and grief that Snape couldn't get over.
The only problem with the idea that it 'wasn't so much unrequited love' is that the doe is then left unexplained. Regret, remorse, guilt and grief do not control one's patronus. Rather one's "happy thought" does and when that is accompanied by feelings of love (of whatever kind) it can transform the patronus.


Quote:
I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people.
I can't speak for others, but my problem is not that he wished to make himself feel better, but rather that he resorted to thievery to do so - and he stole the items from Harry, who he knew would treasure them and had a right to treasure them, more than Snape did (he was the owner, it was his family). One can't justify stealing a family heirloom.


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  #57  
Old March 29th, 2008, 10:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved?
The way you worded that amused me for some reason. I agree with you.

Quote:
Beatifically
That's your interpretation of the symbolism and my interpretation differs. I see the symbolism by the way Snape ripped the picture, as if to keep Lily for himself. That, coupled with how he was willing to turn James and Harry in order to have Lily for himself (as Dumbledore says himself), disturbs me. He may have not acted on it by trying to split them up when he was alive, but the way he felt was there, and that's what bothers fans like myself.
I see it symbolising that too. Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily's life in exchange for her husband and son. Pretty sick, imo. And I felt the photo symbolised this as well as showed us that he never accepted Lily's choice. JMO of course.


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  #58  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
and hary has pics of lily
i doubt snape does
Indeed, he has an albumful, a gift from Hagrid.

He also has, if he wants them, memories of his mother, in the form of Snape's dying gift to him.

Of course, Snape lived and died the year of DH, believing that Harry would certainly and unavoidably die, so he would not have expected Harry to be in a position to enjoy either the photo or the memories (or the letter). Further, by including the memory of himself tearing the photo among those he gave Harry, Snape ensured that if Harry wants both the letter and the photo, he can have them. I am confident in suggesting that Harry needs do no more than recover Snape's body from the Shack and repossess them.

I wonder whether he did, or whether he decided they should be buried with Snape.


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  #59  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:04 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
u think one more photo wil make a difference?


and furthermore, if u lived a life like him.... id be a death eater too you noe but he wasnt. he's strong

if you saw a picture of someone u loved lying there and u ahve such bad memories and u lose the one good thing u ahve,, ud probably without thinking rip it and just keep the part of lily for you because tahts what i would do.
Yeah, but it's still not the right thing to do. He was stealing from Harry, for his own personal gain. That's just not right.


  #60  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:06 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirius_lee_G View Post
u think one more photo wil make a difference?
Well, considering the fact that Harry never got the chance to even talk to his own mother, I am sure that Harry would have loved to be in posession of another picture of his mother. He even looks for it in DH, if I remember correctly.

Quote:
and furthermore, if u lived a life like him.... id be a death eater too you noe but he wasnt. he's strong
Numerous characters in the HP series underwent traumatical experiences. Sirius, for one, had an abusive home, but he never succumbed to the lure of the Dark Arts or Voldemort's regime. I do not see how Snape's past - as tragic as it was - is ever an excuse for his behavior, especially since one of the biggest theme of the series is the importance of choices. Snape chose to do what he did, and that is a reflection of who he was.

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if you saw a picture of someone u loved lying there and u ahve such bad memories and u lose the one good thing u ahve,, ud probably without thinking rip it and just keep the part of lily for you because tahts what i would do.
No, I wouldn't because theft - in my opinion - is a horrendous crime. And I would understand that an orphan deserves to have the photo more than I do.


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