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  #81  
Old August 5th, 2007, 1:38 am
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Re: James and Lily

In all honesty, I think detesting James and thinking that he was an unworthy person for Lily is absolutely ridiculous.
About three years ago I did something horrible to another person I did not like. Yet only a few months later I already felt appalled by what I did. I never did anything like that again. Why? Because I matured due to some obstacles I had to face.
It’s not that hard to believe that James probably felt bad for cursing other people (okay, well maybe he didn’t feel bad for what he did to Snape) and stopped his bullying pattern. There was a war going on in his time and it probably shook him. By the time he died he was an orphan, so he might’ve lost one of his parents. Tragedies such as that tend to change the character of a person.
I’ve said this in other threads, and I’ll say it again: if you’re going to judge a people based on how they acted in their adolescent years, then why bother to respect other characters such as Snape and even Dumbledore? Snape was attracted by the Dark Arts and planned on joining Voldemort. During that time Voldemort was killing, torturing and forcing people to do acts against their own will and Snape was still hoping to join him! Dumbledore neglected his brother and sister and instead paid more attention to his friend Grindelwald. He and Grindelwald both were eager to work together to overthrow the Statue of Secrecy for “the greater good.” James’ bullying, Snape’s infatuation to the Dark Arts, and Dumbledore’s eagerness for power are – as far as I can tell – not admirable in the least.
JK Rowling has stressed throughout the series that choices very important for they give insight into one’s character. James, Snape and Dumbledore all chose to change and break away from their bad habits and grew into men who all contributed to the fight against Lord Voldemort.


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  #82  
Old August 5th, 2007, 2:22 am
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Re: James and Lily

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In all honesty, I think detesting James and thinking that he was an unworthy person for Lily is absolutely ridiculous.
About three years ago I did something horrible to another person I did not like. Yet only a few months later I already felt appalled by what I did. I never did anything like that again. Why? Because I matured due to some obstacles I had to face.
Good point! I really get annoyed when people judge James. I have done some things to people that i'm not proud of and I grew up and I matured and now i'm a better person for it. Why is it so hard for people to accept that James could change for the better?


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  #83  
Old August 5th, 2007, 2:30 am
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Re: James and Lily

I think because we never see any evidence that he actually did mature. All we have to go on is a biased statement from a friend. I think James had the capacity to change for the better, I simply don't think he ever /did/. We see this by his continuing to hex Snape seventh year, while he was dating Lily. Thus, clearly, Lily's judgement cannot be infallible, as she is dating a bully at that period.

I don't detest James. I just think he was unworthy of Lily. He was not honest with her. If he had let her know he was hexing Snape still and let her make her own mind or opinions about it, that would have been one thing. But he didn't. He didn't let her know, and he did it when she wouldn't be looking so that she wouldn't know. It's the lack of honesty in addition to all the characteristics.

And also, I think Dumbledore would have made a terrible husband too. For The Greater Good must have been hard to live with on a personal level. I think Dumbledore would have sacrificed any personal relationships in order to win out over Voldemort, and that can't have been an attractive quality, despite his many other good ones.


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  #84  
Old August 5th, 2007, 2:44 am
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
I think because we never see any evidence that he actually did mature. All we have to go on is a biased statement from a friend. I think James had the capacity to change for the better, I simply don't think he ever /did/. We see this by his continuing to hex Snape seventh year, while he was dating Lily. Thus, clearly, Lily's judgement cannot be infallible, as she is dating a bully at that period.
We never ever see James, we are told he was a complete prat as a teenager and that he grew out of it. We have to accept that because that is what we are told and we are given no indication that he continued being a bully. Snape hated all the maurarders: He hated James (but we never got to see them interact as adults). Sirius (they had a completely childish game of one up manship going on), Remus (but Remus was too mature to play and all we got from him were passive - aggressive comments towards Snape) and Wormtail (completely understandable). They hated each other, and that was just the way it was.

We even know that Lily was fond of Sirius, given her letter. I don’t think she was deceived by any of the marauders. From the scenes we have with them, they seem like the ultimate popular, ‘cool’ gang', that are in every class. James and Sirius may have been idiots when young, but lots of people are and they don’t seem like the manipulative type: too emotionally transparent.

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And also, I think Dumbledore would have made a terrible husband too. For The Greater Good must have been hard to live with on a personal level. I think Dumbledore would have sacrificed any personal relationships in order to win out over Voldemort, and that can't have been an attractive quality, despite his many other good ones.
Dumbledore was very self - aware, I am sure that he knew he would be an awful life partner, which was probably the reason for him being a singleton; I mean he couldn't have been short of offers, loads of women would have wanted a husband like him.


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  #85  
Old August 5th, 2007, 3:03 am
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
I think because we never see any evidence that he actually did mature. All we have to go on is a biased statement from a friend. I think James had the capacity to change for the better, I simply don't think he ever /did/. We see this by his continuing to hex Snape seventh year, while he was dating Lily. Thus, clearly, Lily's judgement cannot be infallible, as she is dating a bully at that period.

I don't detest James. I just think he was unworthy of Lily. He was not honest with her. If he had let her know he was hexing Snape still and let her make her own mind or opinions about it, that would have been one thing. But he didn't. He didn't let her know, and he did it when she wouldn't be looking so that she wouldn't know. It's the lack of honesty in addition to all the characteristics.

And also, I think Dumbledore would have made a terrible husband too. For The Greater Good must have been hard to live with on a personal level. I think Dumbledore would have sacrificed any personal relationships in order to win out over Voldemort, and that can't have been an attractive quality, despite his many other good ones.

I agree with you 100% We never get any solid evidence that he had changed, and I'm sorry, but 21 isn't too far removed from adolescence for me to say that he grew up.

I have also done many things that I am not proud of and I hope that I have learned from those things. I promise you, however, my friends will always tell you what a wonderful person I am(even if I'm being a complete jerk). Friends have a funny way of defending each other and I wouldn't have it any other way.


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  #86  
Old August 5th, 2007, 3:07 am
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by sweets7 View Post
Dumbledore was very self - aware, I am sure that he knew he would be an awful life partner, which was probably the reason for him being a singleton; I mean he couldn't have been short of offers, loads of women would have wanted a husband like him.
Oh, definitely. Honestly, I think it's one of Dumbledore's better qualities, that he does accept that about himself. I'm sure at the least McGonagall would have had him if he'd ever whistled. But my point was to say that there are a lot of good characters who still aren't the best as husbands.

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We never ever see James, we are told he was a complete prat as a teenager and that he grew out of it. We have to accept that because that is what we are told and we are given no indication that he continued being a bully.
We see James in the Pensieve, which is told is a true memory unless it's altered (and it's pretty clear when it's altered, and if I recall correctly, Dumbledore said it took significant work when Slughorn did it, and it was still pretty obvious). I don't think we have to accept that he grew out of it, because we're also told that he /did/ continue being a bully, in that he was still hexing Snape seventh year.

Quote:
Snape hated all the maurarders: He hated James (but we never got to see them interact as adults). Sirius (they had a completely childish game of one up manship going on), Remus (but Remus was too mature to play and all we got from him were passive - aggressive comments towards Snape) and Wormtail (completely understandable). They hated each other, and that was just the way it was.
But you see from Snape's point of view and also from the pensieve memories why that was-they joined with James in tormenting him four on one. Perfectly understandable, and I don't think that means he is somehow bad for disliking him-though that is of course very off subject of Lily/James.

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We even know that Lily was fond of Sirius, given her letter. I don’t think she was deceived by any of the marauders. From the scenes we have with them, they seem like the ultimate popular, ‘cool’ gang', that are in every class.
They do in fact, I think I commented elsewhere that it's very quarterback/cheerleader, James and Lily. But that doesn't make me like them more as a couple-in fact, I think it makes me like them less, if they were the popular, 'cool' kids that terrorized others and gave the nerds swirlies in the toilet, or the wizarding equivalent.


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  #87  
Old August 5th, 2007, 3:12 am
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Re: James and Lily

Ack! I also wanted to find out more about the courtship that was James and Lily, especially because I really always hated the "Snape Loved Lily" theory (and I really hate being wrong). My friend is always making fun of me about my being wrong (and my hatred of) about Snape/Lily. That is why it completely aggravates me that it fit so well with the story and made so much sense. I was also sure that the "awful boy" was James. I couldn't see any reason why it could've been Snape (because I obviously did not know at the time that Snape and Lily were childhood friends).

In any case, I agree with whoever said the thing about Snape really being the one who deserved Lily. I don't like putting that spin on the story, which is probably the biggest reason I wanted to know more about James.

Also, does anyone realize that James and Lily were about 19 when they had Harry? how crazy is that?!


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  #88  
Old August 5th, 2007, 3:24 am
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
We see James in the Pensieve, which is told is a true memory unless it's altered (and it's pretty clear when it's altered, and if I recall correctly, Dumbledore said it took significant work when Slughorn did it, and it was still pretty obvious). I don't think we have to accept that he grew out of it, because we're also told that he /did/ continue being a bully, in that he was still hexing Snape seventh year.
Thats all we have on him though, and that was meant to show Harry that is father wasn't a paradigm of goodness. I mean one scene from a lifetime isn't a lot.

We aren't told that James continued being a bully; we are told that James and Snape continued to hate each other, till the day they both died. Sirius wasn't bullying Snape, but they were ridiculously childish with each other. Snape hated Harry for no good reason; I doubt the hostilities between James and Snape went all one way. I mean in the Pensieve he Sectumsempred James, and that was the curse that lost George his ear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
But you see from Snape's point of view and also from the pensieve memories why that was-they joined with James in tormenting him four on one. Perfectly understandable, and I don't think that means he is somehow bad for disliking him-though that is of course very off subject of Lily/James.
Remus and Wormtail never actually did anything to Snape, they just never stopped anything either. They weren't wrong for disliking each other, they just disliked each other. Such is life. James was everything Snape hated and likewise Snape was everything James hated.


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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
They do in fact, I think I commented elsewhere that it's very quarterback/cheerleader, James and Lily. But that doesn't make me like them more as a couple-in fact, I think it makes me like them less, if they were the popular, 'cool' kids that terrorized others and gave the nerds swirlies in the toilet, or the wizarding equivalent.
Not familiar with cheerleaders or anything, being European, but Lily and Snape wouldn't have worked. In all honesty, as a teenager she was out of his league and his liking for the dark arts, along with a blatant racial slur, signed the fate of their friendship. I mean James was many things but he never used the word ‘mudblood’ and he never was tempted by the dark arts.


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Last edited by sweets7; August 5th, 2007 at 3:27 am.
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  #89  
Old August 5th, 2007, 4:51 am
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Re: James and Lily

Cheerleaders, in the American way of things, are usually the prettiest and most popular girls in school. They wear uniforms to the American football games, usually with short skirts, and in stereotypical American high schools, are the 'cool clique' of girls. They are also very negatively thought of by some, who find them snobby or airheads.

And we do see Snape hexing James, but he hexes James /back/, from my understanding, which is a totally different thing than initiating cursing on him. Also, he used it to much less effect, and I doubt it was a matter of the spell's strength. It clearly did just what he wanted it to.

And yes, MimiMascara, which actually puts it even younger that they actually married! Good point. They must have gotten married at 18-right after their seventh year. Wow! How strange is that to think about! European folk, is that more normal in England, or is that more relating to the fairytale nature of the story, do you think?


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  #90  
Old August 5th, 2007, 8:13 am
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Re: James and Lily

I don't understand why people don't like James because he was a bully and venerate Snape because oh, he was a bully but then he gave up his life for a woman he loved.


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  #91  
Old August 5th, 2007, 8:17 am
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Re: James and Lily

I agree; I'd hoped to see a little of that, though it was such a great book that I can hardly complain.

The only hint we saw of Lily's love for James was when she's reprimanding Snape for his friendship with Mulciber and Avery. While she does claim to Snape that she detests James, she also "blushes under the intensity of his gaze" when he interrogates her about him.

Definitely not the reaction she'd have if Snape was asking about, say, Pettigrew.


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  #92  
Old August 5th, 2007, 8:18 am
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Re: James and Lily

Maybe he was sorry.People will chalk everything James down to being young,and even though that is true,it's not an iron clad excuse,as Harry at times mention,he was younge too(he says this with regard to Dumbledore too).Yes people change,but we don't know how much James changed.He migth have beomce a little less aroogant,but maybe getting Lily boosted it up again.There's just too little to go on for some of us.


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Originally Posted by eternitygodess
I don't understand why people don't like James because he was a bully and venerate Snape because oh, he was a bully but then he gave up his life for a woman he loved.
People are allowd to not like James.I'm sure there are characters you don't like.It's normal.

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
And also, I think Dumbledore would have made a terrible husband too. For The Greater Good must have been hard to live with on a personal level. I think Dumbledore would have sacrificed any personal relationships in order to win out over Voldemort, and that can't have been an attractive quality, despite his many other good ones.
Aww poor Dumbledore.I know this isn't the place for a discussion about him but I find it sad that he spent all of his life virtually alone.



Last edited by Ifink2much; August 5th, 2007 at 8:20 am.
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  #93  
Old August 5th, 2007, 8:35 am
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Re: James and Lily

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People are allowd to not like James.I'm sure there are characters you don't like.It's normal.
I'm aware eveyrone has their own opinions. What frustrates me is how people's emotions are so quickly swayed without really analyzing things.


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  #94  
Old August 5th, 2007, 9:29 am
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Re: James and Lily

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I'm aware eveyrone has their own opinions. What frustrates me is how people's emotions are so quickly swayed without really analyzing things.
I don't know if your speaking generally but my opinions(or emotions)haven't been easily swayed.Things are being analysed,but people end up at different conclusions thats all.


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  #95  
Old August 5th, 2007, 9:30 am
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Re: James and Lily

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I think sometimes JKR does not convey herself well in her writing. I think a lot of people correctly understand her, but a good number of people walk away with ideas completely to the contrary of what she intended. They hate James, they lose respect for Remus, they think Snape is a hero, they think Harry is completely mis-guided, etc.
I agree with you completely. I'm not here to bash JKR's writing, but she sometimes has trouble portraying her characters with any nuance. Just off the top of my head, one example is when Ginny casually says she hexed Zacharias Smith for asking about the MOM, I think JKR means us to see Ginny as fiery and strong, but she ends up looking like a jerk.

I think something similar happened with James. She obviously wanted us to see that Harry's beloved father was no saint, but it seems she went in such an extreme direction that it's hard for many people to like James. Little details- like James attacking Snape just because Sirius was bored- make him seem much crueler than your average arrogant jock. I still think James is ultimately a good guy, but I wish JKR had devoted more time to explaining just what Lily saw in him.


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  #96  
Old August 5th, 2007, 9:50 am
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Re: James and Lily

Please stay away from making assumptions about other member's reasons for their opinions. Discuss the topic of this thread only. Thank you.


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  #97  
Old August 5th, 2007, 11:24 am
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Re: James and Lily

Well I'm going to go on faith and believe that in some way James showed his worth to Lily to make her change her mind about him. I'm sure there is a very good reason why Lily eventually feel in love with him enough to marry and start a family with him.


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  #98  
Old August 5th, 2007, 12:53 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
And yes, MimiMascara, which actually puts it even younger that they actually married! Good point. They must have gotten married at 18-right after their seventh year. Wow! How strange is that to think about! European folk, is that more normal in England, or is that more relating to the fairytale nature of the story, do you think?
No getting married young isn't common here; just part of the fairytale. About the cheerleader thing; Lily appears to be nothing like that, we are told that she was gifted, intelligent and had a good heart; that is all we really know about her.


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Last edited by sweets7; August 5th, 2007 at 2:53 pm.
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  #99  
Old August 5th, 2007, 12:59 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Maybe Lily went out with James to spite Snape. Or James borrowed that 'How to Charm Witches' Book from someone and gave it a go on Lily.


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  #100  
Old August 5th, 2007, 1:22 pm
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Re: James and Lily

About the detention records. I bet George and Fred had just as many as James and Sirius by the end if not more - there were comparisons made in the series. So a whole lot of the slips could have been pranks just like George and Freds. Not all of them were James and Snape related, and those two had very bad feelings between them. When James and gang pranked others, I am sure it was Fred and George like for the most part. That is the impression I got from the books.


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