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  #61  
Old August 4th, 2007, 8:11 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by rainie_hp View Post
No, but James was the most popualr boy in the year! And Lily was the most popular gal. It's like highschool cliche romance, everyone thinks that the populars are made for each other. When a popular guy is openly flirting, everyone gossips about it, and even Lily's friends might joke about her and James. And I think James' popularity and the gossips convinced Snape that sooner or later Lily would be snatched away...
I think James made no secret of liking Lily.When he attached Snape in SWM and Lily tells him to live Snape alone he says that he will if she goes out with him.He must have said it a number of times before.

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Originally Posted by mao View Post
I also have the problem that I rather feel sympathy for Snape... I can't see why Lily would have chosen James; he sounds quite fun, but incredibly superficial.
Having heard so much about him from Severus's point of view I cannot help feeling a little hostile towards him. I can't blame Snape for not forgiving him: James, it seems, was mean to Snape because he was jealous of his friendship with Lily and he succeeded in destroying it, thus getting Snape's girl, and by the way humiliating him. (I do blame Snape for not forgiving Harry, though).

No, for all Jo tells us Severus seems to have had much deeper feelings for Lily than James. I'd like to have an explanation as to why Lily changed her mind about him, maybe there is a more noticable incident.

I hope Jo is going to come up with something in her encyclopedia
I agree with some your gneral thought process.I feel very sorry for Snape(I don't deny it was his fault).In the light of events I can see why she might not have chosen Snape,but I still fail to see why she chose James.He changed eventually I suppose but there's still how much did he change?It's all very sketchy.


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  #62  
Old August 4th, 2007, 8:16 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I can't remember which poster it was, but they said something about how we seemed to be narrowing on Snape and James as the only two choices for her, and protested. The James Potter we see in the books almost makes me want to protest too-if she had a problem with Snape's ways, you'd think she'd go for someone like herself, kind and giving and forgiving. I don't think Lily had a mean bone in her body. It's a complete mystery to me how she ended up with James. I really hope JKR puts something amazing in the encyclopedia.


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  #63  
Old August 4th, 2007, 8:34 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
I can't remember which poster it was, but they said something about how we seemed to be narrowing on Snape and James as the only two choices for her, and protested. The James Potter we see in the books almost makes me want to protest too-if she had a problem with Snape's ways, you'd think she'd go for someone like herself, kind and giving and forgiving. I don't think Lily had a mean bone in her body. It's a complete mystery to me how she ended up with James. I really hope JKR puts something amazing in the encyclopedia.
I agree, I always wondered if I was the only one who thought this! We are told about James's courage and bravery but all we are ever shown is arrogance and bullying. But I guess we are shown the worst of James, mostly through Snape's memories.

In terms of kindness and compassion, Lily and Lupin would have made a lovely match - but as Rowling pointed out in the live chat, not everyone falls in love with everyone else!


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  #64  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:28 pm
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Re: James and Lily

And actually, I think JKR says something that Lupin had a soft spot for Lily, but would never have dreamed of competing with James.

You know, despite Lily not falling in love with or marrying him, I think that would have been a pair I could get behind. Lupin definitely has the compassion and sense of responsibility that James lacks-you can see that he at least tries to be the steadying influence. The fact that he doesn't succeed is more due to his own fringe position in the group I think than anything else .

James and Lily, they were both Gryffindors, so we can see that they both have courage and bravery. But is that enough to build a life on, especially given everything else, like James' bullying and deception? James is hiding from her seventh year the fact that he is still hexing. That's not a foundation of relationship you'd expect to see by the time he'd supposedly 'matured'.


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  #65  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:31 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Relationships are imperfect. Everyone is expecting James&Lily to be flawless.

On the sidenote, a couple who is different from each other fares better than a couple who have the exact same qualities.


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  #66  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:33 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Well, yes, but I think there's a slight difference between people having different pursuits, goals, etc, and between people being diametrically opposed in all that they are. Lily has flaws, certainly, but she seems a fundamentally loving and caring person-her flaws are perhaps about loving too much, or too easily, or maybe even being too hot tempered. But given her comments about Mulciber, I can never see her bullying another human being the way James does.


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  #67  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:41 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Well, yes, but I think there's a slight difference between people having different pursuits, goals, etc, and between people being diametrically opposed in all that they are.
I def. don't think they are diametrically opposed.

As for the bullying phase, people should really lay off it. Most kids bully one time or another during their childhood. It's not laudable but a person shouldn't be defined just by snippets of his/her childhood.


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  #68  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:45 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Well yes, but it's said that it continued into his seventh year, which would make him seventeen turning eighteen. Considering that James and Lily only married at 19, that would mean the bullying was essentially part of his adulthood. I don't see how we can say he was mature enough to marry but not mature enough to take his actions as those referencing what he was like as an adult. Plus, he didn't just do it occasionally-the detention records that Harry had to go through show he was doing it constantly. It was far from an isolated example.

And Lily was dating James at the same time the bullying was going on, although granted, she didn't know because he was hiding it from her.


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  #69  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:46 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by m0nkeydump View Post
I thought in this book it would be revealed to us how James and Lily came together. I was so eager to find out how Lily finally saw James in a new light and becoming friends then more. Was this talked about at all in the book or somewhere?
Yes...in Deathly Hallows during "The Prince's Tale", (although it did not go into detail at all into James Potter, too well), I think Lily chose James because James didn't call her a...a...(mudblood), and James was in Gryffondor like she and hung out with Gryffondors like she and the problem with Snape was that they were both so distant being in different houses and not sharing the same friends, and basically being part of different crowds.


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  #70  
Old August 4th, 2007, 9:54 pm
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Re: James and Lily

^You don't just marry people because they don't think your a mudblood. That's not a good basis for a marriage.


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  #71  
Old August 4th, 2007, 10:20 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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James and Lily, they were both Gryffindors, so we can see that they both have courage and bravery. But is that enough to build a life on, especially given everything else, like James' bullying and deception? James is hiding from her seventh year the fact that he is still hexing. That's not a foundation of relationship you'd expect to see by the time he'd supposedly 'matured'
.

Yes James and Snape still hexed each other in there seventh year but, I don't see Snape not starting something with James because Snape was jelous of him and Lily. I see Snape hexing James a lot out of his depression of loseing Lily.


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  #72  
Old August 4th, 2007, 10:27 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I believe that the reason we could not know about James and Lily's relationship is that we wouldn't feel sorry for Snape. We need to see it through Snape's eyes so we feel sympathy for him. If we just saw the great things about James, we would never have been able to accept Snape's behavior.


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  #73  
Old August 4th, 2007, 10:28 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I don't think it was a big point to the plot that we found out exactly how Lily and James got together. Maybe JKR wrote it but then her editor cut it out as it didn't lead to anything.

We didn't need to know. It is left for us to decide exactly what happened.


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  #74  
Old August 4th, 2007, 10:57 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by LoonyMagic View Post
I don't think it was a big point to the plot that we found out exactly how Lily and James got together. Maybe JKR wrote it but then her editor cut it out as it didn't lead to anything.

We didn't need to know. It is left for us to decide exactly what happened.
I think that too, it wasn't really important to know how James and Lily came together. Sirius and Lupin really told Harry what had happened between them, in OOTP. They basically told Harry and us, all that was needed: James and Sirius were popular, bullying idiots when they were young, James fancied Lily, Lily thought he was an idiot, James grew up and out if his adolescent behaviour and she started to like him. They then, in their last year of school (I think) started to go out. I don't think we needed to know more then that. After school they got married and had Harry, and a year later their story ended and the books began.


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  #75  
Old August 4th, 2007, 11:00 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by missbrunettgirl View Post
.

Yes James and Snape still hexed each other in there seventh year but, I don't see Snape not starting something with James because Snape was jelous of him and Lily. I see Snape hexing James a lot out of his depression of loseing Lily.
I don't think it was just James and Snape hexing each other, I think it was James hexing Snape. We never see evidence that Snape hexed anyone without being attacked first, and I think it would have been in the detention files if he had.

That said, whoever said that simply not calling someone a Mudblood is a bad reason to start a relationship is spot-on! There has to be another reason.

I suppose the reason why the 'simple answer' isn't good enough for me is that we see so much a perceptive Lily. It's hard for me to understand how she could be so easily deceived as to get involved with James thinking he had matured when he was still hexing her former best friend behind her back.


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  #76  
Old August 4th, 2007, 11:13 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I can't say that I need to know more about their relationship, afterall, they really weren't main characters. I think that love is a very strange thing. I was truely left thinking that Severus was the better man and that he was the one who deserved Lily. However, he never would have become the character that we have grown to love if that had been the case. I dont think it's possible for any person to truely change in the 2 years between the memory of James in his fifth year to the seventh year when they got together. Even without Severus' involvement, I wouldn't have thought a "decent" girl would choose someone like James. I am sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but my interpretation leads me to believe that James was arrogant and mean. I kind of feel that maybe Lily was more of a prize to win than anything else. Yes, he was young, but he was still young when he was killed. He never really got the chance to "grow up".


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  #77  
Old August 4th, 2007, 11:16 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
I suppose the reason why the 'simple answer' isn't good enough for me is that we see so much a perceptive Lily. It's hard for me to understand how she could be so easily deceived as to get involved with James thinking he had matured when he was still hexing her former best friend behind her back.
Well Lupin did say that Snape was a 'special case' for James. I am sure James knew Snape fancied Lily, and I am sure that they never wasted an opportunity to rile each other. We are told that James did stop his bullying ways and matured, so it probably became a mutual hatred, on even terms, in the end. Lots of my friends don't like each other, lots of my friends’ friends don't like me, it is not my problem and I ignore it. Lily really had nothing to do with the situation, and Snape wasn't her friend anymore; if James didn't tell her, well that’s life. We don’t need to know everything


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Last edited by sweets7; August 5th, 2007 at 12:12 am.
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  #78  
Old August 5th, 2007, 12:23 am
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Re: James and Lily

Yes, but Harry specificly asks if his mother knew about it, and was met with an embarrassed shuffle, and a 'Well, James didn't exactly hex him while out on dates with Lily'.

That's more than just a mutual hatred. A mutual hatred should not still be evolving into the equivalent of physical fights by the time people are 17-18, and it certainly cannot be said to bespeak maturity.

Also, we are not told by narration that James stopped his bullying ways and matured..we are told by a friend of his, who would have every reason to whitewash his record.


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  #79  
Old August 5th, 2007, 12:59 am
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Re: James and Lily

^I'm sure Rowling wouldn't have made Lupin stretch the truth out too much.

James prob. had enough good qualities for Lily to overlook his negative ones.


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  #80  
Old August 5th, 2007, 1:17 am
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by crowheart View Post
Yes, but Harry specificly asks if his mother knew about it, and was met with an embarrassed shuffle, and a 'Well, James didn't exactly hex him while out on dates with Lily'.

That's more than just a mutual hatred. A mutual hatred should not still be evolving into the equivalent of physical fights by the time people are 17-18, and it certainly cannot be said to bespeak maturity.

Also, we are not told by narration that James stopped his bullying ways and matured..we are told by a friend of his, who would have every reason to whitewash his record.
James must have outgrown his childhood bulling self, because Lily didn't change, so as James grew up there must have been something about him, which appealed to her. He was made head boy by Dumbledore, which has to denote that he had matured and Dumbledore recruited him into the order.

In the end, James and Snape hated each other. It had transgressed the bullying that went on while they were children, they just hated each other. I don't think that in anyway impacts on Lily, or whether James was dishonest to her.

I actually always figured that Lupin's rather considered response about Snape and James, was because he knew that Snape fancied Lily and that they had been best friends, and that it was this that had become the main issue between James and Snape. He probably just didn't want to tell Harry, knowing that would adversely affect him. When I read that section in the book I was like: Yep Snape fancied Lily, I never figured in a million years that they had been friends though.


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