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  #21  
Old July 25th, 2007, 12:25 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I agree,I wanted to know more of James and what kind of a person he later became.I have a certain amount of dislike for him after finding out what kind of person he was in OotP(not just how he ws with snape but in general).I'm sure he did change,because Lily surely wouldn't have cared for the person he was,but I wish we had some explantion.There seemed alot about him that Lily disliked,was it possible that he changed entirely?


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  #22  
Old July 25th, 2007, 3:21 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Remember, nearly everything we know about James as a teenager is from Snape's perspective. They hated each other from day one.

We do see that young adult James enjoyed playing with his baby son. We hear good things about him from Lupin, Hagrid, Dumbledore and Sirius, although Sirius' perspective is as skewed in the other direction as Snape's.

The other thing I think is telling is that Snape's Patronus is a doe, clearly because of his love for Lily. I'm guessing that was her Patronus originally, and after she died, Snape's changed to represent her. James' was a stag, and the stag and doe go together. To me, that says James and Lily were soul mates.


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  #23  
Old July 25th, 2007, 3:29 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I think Jo set it up so it's easy to see why Lily chose James--Harry. Harry is constantly compared to his father by just about everyone-Hagrid, Sirious, Lupin, even Snape--and all in a favorable manner (except Snape). We love Harry, we see that Harry is good. If Harry is so much like his father, of course Lily would've fallen in love with James.

Also, without all the hardships in his life, Harry might have been an arrogant berk, right? Just like his little James in the epilogue? Food for thought.


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  #24  
Old July 25th, 2007, 3:34 pm
Kneazle79  Female.gif Kneazle79 is offline
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Re: James and Lily

There's no doubt that James was an annoying prat as a teenager but he was good at everything, came from a pampered background & was very much indulged at home.
But he changed, he grew up - why? what changed? Well I've always thought that the answer was the world changed - Voldemort was growing more powerful all the time & he had to step up. Lupin & Sirus did tell Harry 'Despite what you saw James always hated the Dark Arts' so I think it was the changing environment that bought about the change in James as well as just plain getting older.
James & Sirius were pretty much the height of cool at Hogwarts & I get the feeling that James could have pretty much had his pick of girls but it didn't matter because it was always Lily - which I think is cute - kinda like Harry & Ginny in reverse


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  #25  
Old July 25th, 2007, 3:40 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I've always been fascinated by Harry's parents a little, and The Prince's Tale just blew me away. But the point we've had driven home to us is that being capable of love, as Snape was, doesn't make us perfect or infallible in any way- he would have shopped Harry and James to Voldemort quite happily if it meant Lily would live, never mind that it would cause her immense grief, for a start- he was too besotted with her to see the reality of who she was and what she stood for- otherwise he'd have pulled himself up when she asked him to stop hanging around the future Death Eaters, wouldn't he?
James Potter was indeed quite a bit of an idiot in the memory we saw, but is it really fair to judge someone solely on the basis of the memories of the person who resented him most? If we can't trust the words of the remaining Marauders and Dumbledore, we do have evidence of the fact that Lily genuinely loved her husband and was happy with him, in the letter she wrote Sirius, the fragment of which Harry found. And we've always known Harry's parents died young, but it was heartwrenching to find my theory- that they were only twenty-one when they died- confirmed by their graves. It's slightly staggering to think they were younger than I am now...


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  #26  
Old July 25th, 2007, 3:40 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Yeah, I think James was willing to do anything for Lily. Snape on the hand had called her a Mudblood but then he had to asking for forgiveness. James wouldn't have done that. Snape could've changed for Lily and gotten out of the Dark Arts, but he really didn't even though he was good in end.


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  #27  
Old July 25th, 2007, 3:44 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I think that we're supposed to accept that James was a good person because he ended up with Lily- that the obnoxious bully in Snape's Worst Memory came around due to Lily's influence, and that because Lily's patronus matched his that she truly loved him and he was worth loving.

That, unfortunately, is all we have to go on.


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  #28  
Old July 25th, 2007, 4:04 pm
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Re: James and Lily

I agreee that it would have been nice to have known more about Lily and James, their defiance against Voldemort and how they came to love eachother. But at the same time i think explaining every single tiny detail about the story would leave nothing up to the readers imgination. Having things to speculate on keeps us talking about the series after all


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  #29  
Old July 25th, 2007, 4:28 pm
nekochan  Female.gif nekochan is offline
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Re: James and Lily

You know, with all this talk about a possible encyclopedia being released sometime in the future, it makes me hope even more desperately that the extent of James' affections for Lily might be covered in more detail.

If you think about it, I wonder what Harry must have thought when he found out about Lily's relationship with Snape beyond, "Whoa... Snape is actually capable of caring for somebody enough for... this and this and this to happen?" I mean, when I read the chapter, I started to think, Well, I expected Snape loved Lily, but this much? Maybe Snape deserved her after all? The problem is, we do not have much to go by that can help us compare Snape's affections for Lily to James' affections for Lily, which of couse means that Harry will never have much more information either, since all the involved parties are dead.

He seems to automatically assume the love between his parents was very strong, because of what others have told him and what he has seen from letters/recollections. There is no doubt that it was either, but I cannot help but wonder what led Lily to consider James at all as a possible boyfriend/husband.

I read on the thread about Snape and Lily that maybe Lily went out with James initially to spite Snape after their friendship broke apart. While I cannot see Lily going out with him for just that reason, some inkling inside tells me that a small percentage of the reason could have been this. By their seventh year, we know James had deflated his head enough for Lily to consider him. However, we've seen incidents of characters (*cough*Ron and Hermione*cough*) going out with people to annoy people who they are annoyed with in the book; it's a common teenage practice. Lily may have considered this when she finally said "yes" to James' plea for a date. Yet, I don't think it was of the same caliber as the Ron/Hermione finger-pointing battle. She was very hurt from Snape's comments towards her - his friends, calling her a "Mudblood", etc. - at the time. She probably figured that, since her friendship with Snape led to disaster, giving a chance to the people he most hates (but she knows do not hate her) would work out better. Thus, she chooses to go out with James and ends up falling in love.

I think the most telling thing is that we are never given a hint that Lily had romantic feelings towards Snape. Jo is not the type of author that immediately assumes two best friends of opposite genders automatically end up as an item (as the militant Harry/Hermione shippers have certainly discovered by now), so it is entirely possible Lily's relationship with Snape was completely platonic. That being said, Lily was perfectly open to dating anybody she wished without her relationship with Snape (or lack thereof) being affected, in her mind. Snape was the other flip of the coin. He did have an attachment to Lily that, though it may not have been romantic until much later, certainly was a lot stronger than she knew. When Lily thought her friendship with Snape was over, she felt free to date James without the trouble of hurting Snape affecting her too much, because she didn't think he would care as much as he did.

As others have said, the emphasis of choice plays a factor here. James was willing to change for Lily, and Lily realized when he did that he was far better than she initially believed. Snape, on the other hand, waited too long to change, and since Lily had no attachment towards him beyond that of a close friend, she had already moved forward before he could mend the scars he had made. Thus, James ended up winning Lily's affections. We cannot set too much store by the memories of James' enemy for what he was truly like once he made this change, so I think we can trust his friends and the countless others who have said that James truly did earn Lily's love in the end.


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  #30  
Old July 26th, 2007, 2:21 pm
AnitaPotter  Undisclosed.gif AnitaPotter is offline
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Re: James and Lily

I used to think Lily and James were made for each other and enjoy all fanfictions about them. While I'm happy that I correctly guessed Snape's love for Lily, I must admit I never thought it to be so deep. When compared with Snape's, James' love was just like a naive schoolboy crush. Of course, the facts that he's willing to mature (partially?) due to Lily and die for her show that he really loved Lily deeply later in their lives, may after their going out, if not at the time of SWM because he almost asked her out like it's a joke.

I guess it's important that Lily broke her relationship (I think it's friendship only but some may think it's love) with Snape before Year 7. I think it's evidence that she didn't go out with James just to annoy Snape. She truly loved James, which I'm happy about!

An issue I want to discuss is James saved Snape before SWM and Lily knew it. Guess this is something important that not every student would learn about. If Snape was sworn to secrecy and didn't tell Lily himself, I don't see MWPP telling others easily. Does it mean Lily's close to the Marauders? Lily's strong in her opinion and direct in her way of communication. Maybe she's close (at least friendly) to the Marauders, being in the same house over the years, but kept telling James and Sirus their arrogance, SWM being just one example, just like she told Snape about her disapproval of his friend.

Tell me what you think! I'm dying for more speculation on the relationship between James and Lily. I still think they're made for each other, though I can't deny I cried everytime I read "after all this time" "always"!


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  #31  
Old July 26th, 2007, 2:26 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by Lillbet View Post
I think that we're supposed to accept that James was a good person because he ended up with Lily- that the obnoxious bully in Snape's Worst Memory came around due to Lily's influence, and that because Lily's patronus matched his that she truly loved him and he was worth loving.

That, unfortunately, is all we have to go on.
Yes, that is a bit sad. JKR has made it pretty clear that James is supposed to be a good person, but the only instances were we actually saw him in the books he was more like Draco Malfoy than anyone else. People who only read the books and are not crazy enough about Harry Potter to also read the interviews and stuff are bound to wonder a bit, aren't they?


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  #32  
Old July 26th, 2007, 4:30 pm
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Re: James and Lily

We did see him as a dad, if only for the moments before Voldemort killed him...and I found the fact that his last action before rushing to defend his family was done to amuse Harry, heartwrenching. He clearly loved his infant son, and as for him being more like Malfoy than anyone else, I can't imagine a Malfoy entertaining a child with smoke rings..


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  #33  
Old July 26th, 2007, 5:11 pm
PerrysburgGuy  Undisclosed.gif PerrysburgGuy is offline
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Re: James and Lily

Perhaps James just received an early copy of the books Ron gave to Harry.


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  #34  
Old July 26th, 2007, 6:09 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by AnitaPotter View Post
Does it mean Lily's close to the Marauders?
I doubt she was with James and Sirius at that time but she could have well been with Remus.They were both prefects(well Remus was and I assume that Lily must have been to become head girl).I can easily see her being friends with Remus,they have alot in common.


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  #35  
Old July 26th, 2007, 6:33 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by AnitaPotter View Post
When compared with Snape's, James' love was just like a naive schoolboy crush.
I don't agree with that...Snape's love for Lily started out obsessive, to the point where he didn't care who he hurt as long as she remained on his side- witness what he did to Petunia for eavesdropping on them, or the fact that he'd asked Voldemort to spare her life, never mind what happened to her husband and son. And he made it abundantly clear to Dumbledore that his horror at the idea of Harry being led to his death like a 'pig to the slaughter' wasn't because he cared for Harry, but because Harry was Lily's son. For Snape, nothing else mattered but her. And I honestly don't think Lily would have been happy knowing that Snape was as mad about her as he was.
In comparison, we know very little of James and Lily firsthand, as a couple. They seemed very happy in their married life, and DH doesn't leave me with any doubts that they loved each other. The little scene right before the attack on their home- James amusing Harry with coloured smoke rings, Lily coming in to put the baby to bed- was actually a brief glimpse into how they lived, and I can't see anything there except a really happy young family.


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  #36  
Old July 26th, 2007, 7:03 pm
Harsh_Potter  Undisclosed.gif Harsh_Potter is offline
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by Drusilla View Post
I don't agree with that...Snape's love for Lily started out obsessive, to the point where he didn't care who he hurt as long as she remained on his side- witness what he did to Petunia for eavesdropping on them, or the fact that he'd asked Voldemort to spare her life, never mind what happened to her husband and son. And he made it abundantly clear to Dumbledore that his horror at the idea of Harry being led to his death like a 'pig to the slaughter' wasn't because he cared for Harry, but because Harry was Lily's son. For Snape, nothing else mattered but her. And I honestly don't think Lily would have been happy knowing that Snape was as mad about her as he was.
In comparison, we know very little of James and Lily firsthand, as a couple. They seemed very happy in their married life, and DH doesn't leave me with any doubts that they loved each other. The little scene right before the attack on their home- James amusing Harry with coloured smoke rings, Lily coming in to put the baby to bed- was actually a brief glimpse into how they lived, and I can't see anything there except a really happy young family.
Exactly! Plus Snape never really changed his beliefs for Lily until he was under the tutelage of Dumbledore.

He was with all future DEs when he was a school boy and he was fascinated with the Dark Arts and supported it, which I hardly think, is a good thing.
He actively supported the 'pure blood superiority' campaign.

And his love on Lily was obsession in the beginning.
He was ready to give up James and Harry up to Voldemort without any care in the world, if it meant his Lily was safe and sound.

I don't think Lily would have been impressed at all, if she had come to know about this.
Compare this to James, who grew up from his arrogance, fought for the right cause, probably saved plenty of people during his OotP days by fighting against the DEs, defied Voldemort thrice, sacrificed his life for his family, and was also, fundamentally opposed to the Dark Arts right from the beginning.

He changed...a bit for Lily, but mostly for himelf...he changed without needng any major catalyst for doing so, while Snape needed Lily's death to egg him on and go on the Light side.

Nor do I think, James would have left Snape to die, if Lily had chosen Snape as her boyfriend and if the cases had been reversed.

There is also the fact that James saved Snape, risking his own life, while Snape didn't give second thought about James and Harry when he learnt about Voldemort.



And after all Lily chose James after disliking him for so long, which goes to show that, she did definitely see plenty of things worth admiring in him.


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  #37  
Old July 26th, 2007, 7:17 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Ok, I was a complete arrogant bully in high school (sorry). But when I got to college all of that changed. You just grow up, that is what people do. James just moved on like most of us, it just starts making you feel ridiculous to do that kind of kid stuff and you learn to see the good in everyone.

James was good looking, Snape was not, James was good, Snape was into dark arts, James matured, Sev did not, Lily chose James. The end.

I think sometimes JKR does not convey herself well in her writing. I think a lot of people correctly understand her, but a good number of people walk away with ideas completely to the contrary of what she intended. They hate James, they lose respect for Remus, they think Snape is a hero, they think Harry is completely mis-guided, etc.

From her recent interview, we know she doesn't think Snape a hero, just brave, and from past interviews we know she thinks James was a good man protecting his family. We know she loves Remus and Harry and likely does not want her fans to think less of them as characters.

But her fans do feel the opposite at times (not seeing the interviews) and I think it comes down to her lack of making her writing convey what she means. In DH she was so bent on redeeming Snape in people's eyes, some walked away thinking James was a villian and Lily mean not to have returned Snape's love when Snape was a hero, loving, kind, gentle and mis-understood soul. I don't think that is what she meant to convey at all.



Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 26th, 2007 at 7:21 pm.
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  #38  
Old July 26th, 2007, 7:28 pm
BookWhizzbee  Female.gif BookWhizzbee is offline
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
What galls me is that JKR sometimes does not take care when writing. I think a lot of people correctly understand her, but a good number of people walk away with ideas completely to the contrary of what she intended. They hate James, they lose respect for Remus, they think Snape is a hero, they think Harry is completely mis-guided, etc.
I really have a problem with her portrayal of James, too. I accept that she tells us he grew out of it all and became a great person, but it is just not really there in the books.

Hagrid tells us he was a great wizard, but apart from that we get him bullying Snape in the OotP pensieve scene, mirroring Draco's disdain for the 'wrong' houses on the train to Hogwarts and lots of reminiscing from Sirius about him being an irresponsible teenager running around with werewolves and generally being reckless.
OK, in all fairness, we see him being a loving father just before his death, and his saving Snape's life from werewolf Lupin does demonstrate that he had his priorities straight, but he also saved Sirius and Remus from effectively committing a murder, so that can be read both ways.

It's a bit like JKR saying several times that of course there are Death Eaters in the other houses, and not all Slytherins are bad, but during the final battle Slytherin still is the one house that is collectively absent from the battle and Wormtail remains the only Death Eater associated with a house other than Slytherin.


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  #39  
Old July 26th, 2007, 7:50 pm
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Re: James and Lily

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post

I think sometimes JKR does not convey herself well in her writing. I think a lot of people correctly understand her, but a good number of people walk away with ideas completely to the contrary of what she intended. They hate James, they lose respect for Remus, they think Snape is a hero, they think Harry is completely mis-guided, etc.

From her recent interview, we know she doesn't think Snape a hero, just brave, and from past interviews we know she thinks James was a good man protecting his family. We know she loves Remus and Harry and likely does not want her fans to think less of them as characters.

But her fans do feel the opposite at times (not seeing the interviews) and I think it comes down to her lack of making her writing convey what she means. In DH she was so bent on redeeming Snape in people's eyes, some walked away thinking James was a villian and Lily mean not to have returned Snape's love when Snape was a hero, loving, kind, gentle and mis-understood soul. I don't think that is what she meant to convey at all.
I agree. I do like Snape, but I don't think he's the hero of all heroes. He did some pretty bad stuff, but redeemed himself in the end.

As for James, I don't really think it's important as to how they fell in love. At first, when Harry saw SWM, he wondered if his father had forced his mother to marry him. But after that moment, he never thought about it again. He still hero-worshiped his father nevertheless.

I think by showing us SWM, JKR just wanted us to realize that nobody is perfect. In the end, Harry just came to realize that his father changed. As readers, I think we are supposed to realize this too.


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  #40  
Old July 26th, 2007, 7:55 pm
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Re: James and Lily

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Originally Posted by BookWhizzbee View Post
I really have a problem with her portrayal of James, too. I accept that she tells us he grew out of it all and became a great person, but it is just not really there in the books.
Exactly.Also it's like Harry says,he was younge too,youth is not an iron clad excuse for bad behaviour.I personally find it hard to believe that he changed completly,because I don't think people do change completly.


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