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  #61  
Old May 9th, 2009, 7:38 pm
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

Animagus forms always seem to be animals indigenous to the region the wizard resides in. I don't think the animagus transformation can turn a person into a magical creature. That probably requires a different kind of spell. Since in Rowling's "wizarding world" wizards appear to be limited to one kind of animagus transformation, I think that any similarity between a person's animagus form and his patronus is sheer coincidence. After all, Tonks patronus changed after she fell in love with Remus.

In previous fairytale literature, wizards were not limited to only one form of animal. In "Puss in Boots" the wizard first transforms into a dragon, and then into a mouse to prove his versatility, and then Puss eats him before he can transform into anything else.

In E.B.White's version of the Arthur legend, "The Once and Future King", Merlin and Morgan le Fay have a contest where they transform into various things including plants and microbes.

So previous literature does not limit the forms an accomplished wizard can take. Nor does it limit his ability to choose the forms.


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Old May 10th, 2009, 2:07 am
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Re: What happens to an Animagus after he is killed?

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Originally Posted by RemusPotter View Post
I've been wondering. If an Animagus is in his animal-mode and is being killed, will he turn back to his human form after he's been killed?
A good question. My guess is that they do. Most spells stop working, when their caster dies and I get the impression that it takes will power to keep your animagus form. Sirius after all transformed back during the Dememtor attack in POA.


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  #63  
Old May 10th, 2009, 7:26 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

Hmmm that is a good question. I would assume so, because that isn't their true form ... but then again, it is the wizarding world, just about anything is possible. But then again, to think logically .... I am certain they would transform back into their human form.


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  #64  
Old June 16th, 2009, 2:10 am
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Animagus

Okay... so I was reading (as always) and I started thinking... is an animagus like a patronus and it represents you in a way? Like Rita Skeeter's anumagus... she was a bug... she "bugs" people with her lies and such.

Also, what sort of animagus would you be? If you could choose any form...

I'd want to be... an owl! They're sneaky and wise!


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  #65  
Old June 17th, 2009, 1:53 pm
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Re: What happens to an Animagus after he is killed?

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Originally Posted by RemusPotter View Post
I've been wondering. If an Animagus is in his animal-mode and is being killed, will he turn back to his human form after he's been killed?
I think he stays in that form, because he would not have the life or the magic or the will to transform back.


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  #66  
Old June 17th, 2009, 2:52 pm
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Re: What happens to an Animagus after he is killed?

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Originally Posted by Smartwitch15
Okay... so I was reading (as always) and I started thinking... is an animagus like a patronus and it represents you in a way? Like Rita Skeeter's anumagus... she was a bug... she "bugs" people with her lies and such.
Yes, a wizard's Animagus form reflects that individual's character, personality, etc. Meanwhile, a Patronus form is based on the wizard's emotions, as well as character and personality (which is why an emotional upheaval may change one's Patronuses, like Tonks's).
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods
I think he stays in that form, because he would not have the life or the magic or the will to transform back.
As Tenshi said, though, most spells stop working upon the caster's death, like Dumbledore's Freezing Charm on Harry. The method of becoming an Animagus has never been revealed, but I think it would require a spell, potion, or a combination. Therefore, upon the individual's death, that spell would discontinue, and I think a potion would, also, since it no longer has anything to control inside the wizard's body. Thus, upon death, the Animagus, if in animal form, would be reverted back to his/her original, human form.

Tenshi provided a great example with Sirius and the dementors, in my opinion, since I think the dementors' power over Sirius (and Sirius's weakness and powerlessness) resulted in Sirius' involuntary transformation. I see no reason why he would voluntarily transform back into human form, since dementors cannot sense animals as well, and the transformation would likely require precious energy.


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  #67  
Old June 17th, 2009, 4:39 pm
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Re: What happens to an Animagus after he is killed?

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Tenshi provided a great example with Sirius and the dementors, in my opinion, since I think the dementors' power over Sirius (and Sirius's weakness and powerlessness) resulted in Sirius' involuntary transformation. I see no reason why he would voluntarily transform back into human form, since dementors cannot sense animals as well, and the transformation would likely require precious energy.
But Sirius was alive when he transformed back. If there was an AK at an animagus, for example, a curse that brings about instantaneous death and if the animagus was taken unawares and he/she died in their animagus forms, how will they transform back, because there would be no life or magic to help them.


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Old June 23rd, 2009, 12:00 am
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Re: What happens to an Animagus after he is killed?

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods
But Sirius was alive when he transformed back. If there was an AK at an animagus, for example, a curse that brings about instantaneous death and if the animagus was taken unawares and he/she died in their animagus forms, how will they transform back, because there would be no life or magic to help them.
As I see it, because the enchantment allowing the Animagus transformation would also end with the death of the original caster - just like Dumbledore's Petrificus Totalus on Harry ended upon his death. The Secret Keeper's death with the Fidelius Charm is also an example of this, since his/her death reveals the secret to all those who were previously held in confidence.

On the other hand, we see charms like a Permanent Sticking Charm that continue to work despite the caster's death. However, even in this example, the spell is explicitly named as permanent, which the Animagus transformation does not imply, as I see it; so I think only those spells that are specifically designed to permanently operate have that power.

Even though Sirius was not dead when the dementors closed in upon him in PoA, but I still think it was an involuntary transformation. I cannot imagine Sirius willingly transformed back into a human, since the dementors cannot sense non-human emotions as well. To me, this simply suggests that the Animagus transformation is not dependent on the will of the Animagus and that it does not require the individual's consent to revert into human form in periods of weakness. In my opinion, this same ability of the enchantment/potion would be seen in death: it would revert the individual back into human form involuntarily. This, combined with the apparent tendency for spells to quit operating upon the caster's death, suggest, to me, that an Animagus killed in his/her animal form would return to human form.


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  #69  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 8:00 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

I think the other charms you mentioned are charms cast by a person on another person or thing; so if they died the spell dies with them, because the spell is powered by the magic of those people and when the magic dies, the spell dies too.

But in a polyjuice potion or in an animagus, where the change does not seem to be due to a spell or the magic of another person, but by a potion which reacts in a certain manner for one hour and then stops and where the change is almost instantaneous and is powered by will to hold on to another form, other than their true one, the animagus can slip up, when they are too weak to hold on to their forms, like Sirius did, but assuming they are killed, shot at or AKed, then they can die before they come back to their original forms. Since the mind was employed in changing into an animal, I think the mind has to be alive to change back as well. If the person died before he could change back, then I think he would remain as he was, in his animagus form, because there is no mind to work the magic to change back.


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Old June 23rd, 2009, 9:42 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think the other charms you mentioned are charms cast by a person on another person or thing; so if they died the spell dies with them, because the spell is powered by the magic of those people and when the magic dies, the spell dies too.

But in a polyjuice potion or in an animagus, where the change does not seem to be due to a spell or the magic of another person, but by a potion which reacts in a certain manner for one hour and then stops and where the change is almost instantaneous and is powered by will to hold on to another form, other than their true one, the animagus can slip up, when they are too weak to hold on to their forms, like Sirius did, but assuming they are killed, shot at or AKed, then they can die before they come back to their original forms. Since the mind was employed in changing into an animal, I think the mind has to be alive to change back as well. If the person died before he could change back, then I think he would remain as he was, in his animagus form, because there is no mind to work the magic to change back.
well put, I agree

If you're killed instantly your mind will not be able to switch you back to human form


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Old June 24th, 2009, 8:27 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

But still why did Bella kill the fox in HBP? When you don't transform back after being killed, why bothering killing the animal?

Maybe you need willpower to keep the spell going, and when you are dead you can't do it anymore and hence transform back?

Another question:
When Rita was captured in the glass, why didn't she transform back and break the glass? What kept her back?


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  #72  
Old June 24th, 2009, 8:40 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

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But still why did Bella kill the fox in HBP? When you don't transform back after being killed, why bothering killing the animal?
I think in HBP, Bella thought that the fox was actually someone following them; she killed it and then found out it was a fox. I don't think there is anythiing to say that it was an animagus.

HBP - Spinner's End'Just a fox,' said a woman's voice dismissively from under the hood. 'I thought perhaps an Auror - Cissy, wait!'


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Maybe you need willpower to keep the spell going, and when you are dead you can't do it anymore and hence transform back?
But when you are dead, the magic you need to change back is dead as well. How can one effect what is a magical transformation without the magic? For the magic would die with the person as well IMO.

Quote:
Another question:
When Rita was captured in the glass, why didn't she transform back and break the glass? What kept her back?
Great question and here's my guess.

I think it's because there was no space to effect the transformation. She was captured as a beetle and for her to transform back into herself she would need a lot more space than what the bottle provided. So it looks like, if an animagus whose form is very small, is caught, they cannot turn back into themselves unless they have the space to do so.


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  #73  
Old June 24th, 2009, 8:48 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But when you are dead, the magic you need to change back is dead as well. How can one effect what is a magical transformation without the magic? For the magic would die with the person as well IMO.
No I meant it in a way, that you don't need another spell just to transform back, just that the one you used to transform you and keep yourself in animal form stops working.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Great question and here's my guess. I think it's because there was no space to effect the transformation. She was captured as a beetle and for her to transform back into herself she would need a lot more space than what the bottle provided. So it looks like, if an animagus whose form is very small, is caught, they cannot turn back into themselves unless they have the space to do so.
Yeah makes pretty much sense when you are locked in a unbreakable prison, but it's just a glass. It should be easy to burst when you grow bigger and press against the walls. At least I think so. Maybe the glass was enchanted and made unbreakable.


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  #74  
Old June 24th, 2009, 9:55 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Another question:
When Rita was captured in the glass, why didn't she transform back and break the glass? What kept her back?
Hi in GOF chapter 37 Hermione tells Harry & Ron when they are on the train home that She put an unbreakable Charm on the glass that she had Rita in ,then she tells them that Rita can't transform because of that spell.


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Old June 24th, 2009, 10:11 am
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Re: Questions about Animagi v. 2

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No I meant it in a way, that you don't need another spell just to transform back, just that the one you used to transform you and keep yourself in animal form stops working.
You mean like a spell that dies when the person dies? I don't know, the animagus transformation is not powered by a spell. If it is, then the spell dies and the person changes back, but an animagus seems to change into what the inner animal of a person is and the change seems to be without a spell, so, I think death will not change it back.

Quote:
Yeah makes pretty much sense when you are locked in a unbreakable prison, but it's just a glass. It should be easy to burst when you grow bigger and press against the walls. At least I think so. Maybe the glass was enchanted and made unbreakable.
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Originally Posted by twinsrule26 View Post
Hi in GOF chapter 37 Hermione tells Harry & Ron when they are on the train home that She put an unbreakable Charm on the glass that she had Rita in ,then she tells them that Rita can't transform because of that spell.
That answers the space bit, thanks twinsrule26. It is the unbreakable charm.


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  #76  
Old August 5th, 2009, 2:16 am
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Animagus/Patronus, not the same?

I notice a lot of people on these boards commenting that one's patronus reflects who they are. They seem to think that a Patronus is the same general idea as an Animagus, which we know is a reflection of ones inner self. Sirius for example is a dog Animagus, thus reflecting his loyalty, scruffiness, and funloving attitude. If one's Patronus was a reflection of their inner self as well, then it stands to reason that your Patronus would be the same as your Animagus form right? But it is not.

Let us consider the Patronuses that we know and know the reasons behind. Harry's represents his father. Tonks' new one represents Remus and his werewolf self. Snape's represents Lily and his love for her. NONE of these are meant to represent themselves. They seem to represent somthing which gives them a feeling of comfort and love. My general idea is that your Patronus represents somthing that gives you a feeling of protection and comfort. Definately NOT the same as your animagus form.

Besides any of that, Snape's Animagus form (were he to ever get one) couldn't possibly be the same as his Patronus, unless you argue that being an animagus can switch someone's gender

What do you all think? Am I right in thinking that they are different? If so, am I right in assuming the reasons behind the form that someone's Patronus takes? Most importantly, if they are different, then what would be the most likely Patronuses of Sirius, James, and other people who are Animaguses but we don't know what their Patronus is, and what would be the Animagus forms of Harry, Ron, Dumbledore, Ginny, and those who we see their Patronus but who's Animagus forms are never seen?


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  #77  
Old August 5th, 2009, 5:23 am
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Re: Animagus/Patronus, not the same?

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If one's Patronus was a reflection of their inner self as well, then it stands to reason that your Patronus would be the same as your Animagus form right? But it is not.
I believe McGonagall's Patronus and Animagus form were both a cat, though. I don't know if that is just a coincidence or not. If it isn't a coincidence, I don't know that we can assume the other Anamagi have a Patronus that matches their form, however.

I do think you're right that a Patronus is meant to represent something that gives a witch or wizard comfort (as they are supposed to protect them) and not necessarily a reflection of the witch or wizard. The exception might be Animagis though. Or maybe all everyone would take the same Animagus form as their Patronus. I don't think it was ever really made clear.

That is also a good point you bring up about Snape, though. I would think his potential Animagus form would be different as they are different genders.


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Old August 5th, 2009, 5:55 am
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Re: Animagus/Patronus, not the same?

I'll agree with all that you said about Patronus. Its supposed to give comfort to the conjurer, that's how I view it.
But I've always believed that you could choose your Animagus form. And since your choices are greatly influenced by who you are it is sort of a reflection the person's personality.


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Old August 5th, 2009, 5:58 am
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Re: Animagus/Patronus, not the same?

I'm kind of confused as to what your animagus form actually is, because I never thought that the animal was from your inner self; I thought they got to choose. Rita Skeeter was a beetle, not because it reflected who she was, but because she wanted to spy on people. Why would she put a bunch of effort into becoming an animagus if she had the chance of becoming a large creature, like an elephant? Also, in Quidditch Through the Ages, it mentions that people can choose to be an animagus and turn into a bat or a bird, so I thought the animal was a choice.

I agree with you that a patronus has to do with the animal that comforts you, but I think it can also be something that has a big meaning to you.


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Old August 5th, 2009, 6:03 am
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Re: Animagus/Patronus, not the same?

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I agree with you that a patronus has to do with the animal that comforts you, but I think it can also be something that has a big meaning to you.
Yes, it reflects something that means a lot to you and something the will always put a smile on your lips.


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