Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4



 
 
Thread Tools
  #101  
Old February 13th, 2011, 11:10 am
Chrysalis's Avatar
Chrysalis  Undisclosed.gif Chrysalis is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5922 days
Location: in my leisure suite
Posts: 2,899
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
TheGreenWoods, I reread that passage in the books last night. I read better from the books a lot of the time, I catch the flavour a whole lot better when I read the whole thing. You're right, there was a flavour of Harry thinking Snape was using Legilimency. I don't know if he was though. I don't think he had too. He knew the spell, he knew he invented it and he knew where he wrote it down. I think he was hopping mad, probably with himself as much as Harry for being so absentminded about the book. He probably never thought that much about it, it had been years since he done Advanced Potions. I cut him some slack over that. My old textbooks are scattered all over the house.
I still think you're giving him too much slack about passing on information to Voldemort and holding Peter too hard on doing the same thing. Sauce for the goose and gander should be the same. When hairs get split to much you can end up bald. People seem to think I don't like Snape. Like is not really how I look at him. I appreciate him but I don't think I'd want to spend time with anybody like him in real life. A whole lot of the time I'm grateful he's just a fictional character and nobody actually real. If I sound like I pay a whole lot of attention to Canon, I suppose it's because for me he doesn't do anything but what is on the page. That's what I judge him on, actions that the author give him to do in Canon. I can't say what he did in a class with the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, we never see him teaching them. We see him teaching Gryffindors and Slytherins and based on his performance in those classes, he's a pretty lousy teacher, well I think so.
I don't think it matters to anybody here that you don't like Snape. But I think there are a lot of things concerning Snape in the books that are ambiguous, or open to interpretation. When we discuss what he would be like teaching Ravenclaws or 'Puffs, it gives us greater insight into his character. I think there are lot of aspects about Snape that Rowling didn't literally give us but are implied in the text.

If I had to describe Snape in a way I would say he's the most fully fleshed out character in the HP universe. I suppose that's why I enjoy him so much. He felt more 'real' to me than any of the other characters.


__________________
being alone, it can be quite romantic/ like Jacques Cousteau underneath the Atlantic
Sponsored Links
  #102  
Old February 13th, 2011, 11:21 am
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4600 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
TheGreenWoods, I reread that passage in the books last night. I read better from the books a lot of the time, I catch the flavour a whole lot better when I read the whole thing. You're right, there was a flavour of Harry thinking Snape was using Legilimency. I don't know if he was though. I don't think he had too. He knew the spell, he knew he invented it and he knew where he wrote it down. I think he was hopping mad, probably with himself as much as Harry for being so absentminded about the book. He probably never thought that much about it, it had been years since he done Advanced Potions. I cut him some slack over that. My old textbooks are scattered all over the house.
We can agree to disagree about this, because I do feel that canon is pretty clear Snape used Legilimency on Harry to find out about the spell Harry used, because Harry was not supposed to know that spell in my opinion. I think when Snape performed Legilimency, he saw his Book and understood where Harry got the spell and then asked Harry to bring his Books to him.

"Liar," said Snape. Harry's throat went dry. He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it...

The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swam hazily to the forefront of his mind.

And then he was staring at Snape again, in the midst of this wrecked, soaked bathroom. He stared into Snape's black eyes, hoping against hope that Snape had not seen what he feared, but --
- HBP - Sectumsempra

When Harry thinks he knows what Snape is going to do and then when canon says Harry struggled to block out all thought, but despite his best efforts the HBP Book swam hazily to the forefront of his mind, I do think Harry was trying to stop Snape reading his mind and in the end Harry realises he has failed because Snape seemed to have seen it and asked for his Books. To me, it is Legilimency.

Quote:
I still think you're giving him too much slack about passing on information to Voldemort and holding Peter too hard on doing the same thing.
I hold Snape very much culpable and responsible for handing a Prophecy with an utter lack and regard of a baby's life.

What I don't blame him for is the Potters deaths; because that was not caused by Snape imo; I think they were murdered because Peter betrayed them. Assuming (this is not canon and only speculation) the Potters were not betrayed and they lived and survived the second war, I would still hold Snape culpable for telling the Prophecy to Voldemort knowing that would result in the death of a child/it's family.

But, after Snape came to Dumbledore, when both James and Lily were alive and when they died because Peter betrayed them, I feel Peter was responsible and not Snape for their deaths.

Quote:
Sauce for the goose and gander should be the same.
I agree. But the circumstances in the comparison should also be similar. Here, I don't think Snape's initial actions, then his efforts to undo the terrible mistake, his obvious remorse can be compared to Peter's deliberate betrayal and lack of remorse imo.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:

Last edited by The_Green_Woods; February 13th, 2011 at 11:49 am.
  #103  
Old February 13th, 2011, 2:20 pm
MsJPotter  Undisclosed.gif MsJPotter is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3204 days
Posts: 526
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
I don't think it matters to anybody here that you don't like Snape. But I think there are a lot of things concerning Snape in the books that are ambiguous, or open to interpretation. When we discuss what he would be like teaching Ravenclaws or 'Puffs, it gives us greater insight into his character. I think there are lot of aspects about Snape that Rowling didn't literally give us but are implied in the text.

If I had to describe Snape in a way I would say he's the most fully fleshed out character in the HP universe. I suppose that's why I enjoy him so much. He felt more 'real' to me than any of the other characters.
Hold it, where did I say I didn't like the character of Snape. He's fictional, I like how he's written. I wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley but I don't think I ever will seeing as how he doesn't exist. I appreciate the author's creation, I niether like or dislike him. He's just there in the books and the books I love. Sure you can find implications in the text, implications are different from statements of facts. I think the author did a real good job on fleshing out all the characters. That's what makes the books so good. Snape is a real good character but we don't know what he was like in a class the Harry wasn't in, just like we don't know what he was like when he was alone in his room. What we think he might do in those situations is our own imaginings. I like to keep a line between what I imagine a character might do in an imaginary situation but when it comes to actual situation in the books that different. Then I can voice an opinion on his actions in the text.


  #104  
Old February 13th, 2011, 2:55 pm
Chrysalis's Avatar
Chrysalis  Undisclosed.gif Chrysalis is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5922 days
Location: in my leisure suite
Posts: 2,899
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

I don't think that our personal opinion of Snape's morals and actions really leads to greater understanding of the character. All it teaches me is what the morals of the different members of these forums are. This is a character analysis thread and my personal preference is to discuss the actions of the character and come to understand why he did what he did. Like I said I think there is a lot about him that is not explicitly spelled out in the text but is implied (e.g., his facial expressions in reaction to other people, his remarks). These are the most interesting aspects as they can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.

As for Snape giving the prophecy to Voldemort. I think he is really implicated in that he didn't care what happened to James or Harry. I think he can be held responsible for giving the prophecy to his Master without a second thought, certainly. However I'm a bit dubious in how far he can be blamed for the Potters deaths. I think definitely that Pettigrew's and Voldemort's actions weigh heavier. It is clear to me in any case though from the books that Snape did consider himself to be at fault for Lily's death.

There does seem to be a big difference in the character of Snape as we see him in Harry's time and what he was like before Lily died.


__________________
being alone, it can be quite romantic/ like Jacques Cousteau underneath the Atlantic

Last edited by Chrysalis; February 13th, 2011 at 2:59 pm.
  #105  
Old February 13th, 2011, 3:17 pm
Krums_Girl  Female.gif Krums_Girl is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3744 days
Location: SleepyTown
Age: 24
Posts: 292
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
I don't think it matters to anybody here that you don't like Snape. But I think there are a lot of things concerning Snape in the books that are ambiguous, or open to interpretation. When we discuss what he would be like teaching Ravenclaws or 'Puffs, it gives us greater insight into his character. I think there are lot of aspects about Snape that Rowling didn't literally give us but are implied in the text.
The same can be said both ways; it doesn't matter at all who does and doesn't like Snape- that's not the point of this thread.

When we discuss what Snape would be like in a situation that never happened, it doesn't really give us greater insight. They never happened, so the things we discuss might be way off, resulting in a disturbingly off character view.

Also, implications can go either way. For example, the infamous "I don't see any difference" in GoF. I personally think that he meant that there was no difference between Hermione's oversized, hexed teeth, and her normal teeth. Others have said that he meant that there was no difference from what happened to Hermione and what happened to Goyle. And so then we just go back and forth on that argument for ages and nothing ever gets solved.

That's why we should discuss what happens in canon. Anything else doesn't lead to a worthwhile discussion, IMO.


__________________
Pottermore: FelicisRose142
Wand: Laurel, Phoenix Feather Core, 10 Inches, "Unyielding"
House: Hufflepuff (wuuuut?)


Deathly Hallows Part 2 almost made me a Snape-fan. . .almost. But then I re-read Deathly Hallows and I came back to my senses and the world was the way it's supposed to be.
  #106  
Old February 13th, 2011, 3:26 pm
Chrysalis's Avatar
Chrysalis  Undisclosed.gif Chrysalis is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5922 days
Location: in my leisure suite
Posts: 2,899
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krums_girl
Also, implications can go either way. For example, the infamous "I don't see any difference" in GoF. I personally think that he meant that there was no difference between Hermione's oversized, hexed teeth, and her normal teeth. Others have said that he meant that there was no difference from what happened to Hermione and what happened to Goyle. And so then we just go back and forth on that argument for ages and nothing ever gets solved.
I'm not sure why this can't be considered a perfectly legitimate debate. After all, it concerns something that's on the page. People will have differing interpretations. Personally, I think it was a dig at Hermione's teeth, i.e. that there was no difference between 'before' and 'after' as far as he was concerned.

And as for 'going back and forth' - isn't that the purpose of a debate? The idea is not to 'win' - that is a wrong approach which will only cause bad blood on both sides - but to stimulate people to think. Personally I've come to new approaches about characters from these threads (not just the Snape threads). Or maybe I've been reading too much Plato lately.


__________________
being alone, it can be quite romantic/ like Jacques Cousteau underneath the Atlantic

Last edited by Chrysalis; February 13th, 2011 at 3:28 pm.
  #107  
Old February 13th, 2011, 3:37 pm
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 5274 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,039
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

And this is where the discussion about the purpose of this thread stops. The same goes for terminology. This isn't literary criticism 101.


  #108  
Old February 13th, 2011, 3:43 pm
Daggerstone's Avatar
Daggerstone  Female.gif Daggerstone is offline
Splendide Mendax
 
Joined: 3914 days
Location: In Snape's pocket
Age: 42
Posts: 1,284
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
We see him teaching Gryffindors and Slytherins and based on his performance in those classes, he's a pretty lousy teacher, well I think so.
We don't see Slughorn gasping in shock over "only a dozen people progressing to N.E.W.T. level", nor the OWL examination board rail against the state of Potions studies today, so I wouldn't know.

He's a pretty harsh teacher, but "lousy"? Canon doesn't qualify Snape either way, our personal definitions of "good teacher" do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sekhmetlion View Post
Maybe he thought there was no real curse, or that he could be able to confront whatever the course put in his way and thus rid the post from the curse.
I don't think for a secaond that, if for example Dumbledore took the post himself, the curse had him sacked at the end of the year.
I find it more likely that no one really believed in the curse (or that Jo didn't think that part through to such detail ), than DD knowing about it and still hiring teachers without attempting to break it. Granted, he seemed to know Voldy would eventually return - but surely keeping the curse on the DA teacher's position wasn't considered a crucial move in the war?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Maybe real life spies don't do this.
Snape was a re-doubled agent, Su. Gods only know what kind of stratagem that entails in RL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
This isn't literary criticism 101.
*checks keywords*
Word.

So... why do you think Snape has Bieber fever, and which set of circumstances do you suppose have caused it, based on canon evidence and author's own words?



__________________

Last edited by Daggerstone; February 13th, 2011 at 3:45 pm.
  #109  
Old February 13th, 2011, 4:45 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4926 days
Location: England
Age: 51
Posts: 3,294
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
We don't see Slughorn gasping in shock over "only a dozen people progressing to N.E.W.T. level", nor the OWL examination board rail against the state of Potions studies today, so I wouldn't know.

He's a pretty harsh teacher, but "lousy"? Canon doesn't qualify Snape either way, our personal definitions of "good teacher" do.
Actually, I think we do have canon on the academic standard of Snape's teaching - he passes Umbridge's inspection.

I know that Umbridge is malicious and biased, but it does seem to me that her other three assessments are spot on with what we know from canon (we know that McGonagall is an excellent teacher and, even though Umbridge loathes her, she passes her inspection; we know that Trelawney is a poor teacher - McGonagall and Hermione are both withering about her - and she fails; lovely as he is, it seems that in the academic sense, Hagrid is not a good teacher, as Hermione tries to help him with his lesson plans, because she knows he is in danger of failing - which he does), so I am minded to treat Umbridge's assessment that Snape's class are quite advanced in the subject for their age as accurate.

In my view, then, he's a teacher that gets academic results. What I am less certain about is whether that makes him a "good teacher". It seems to me that in OotP a contrast is set up between Hagrid - a teacher who is friendly and approachable, but not particularly good at teaching - and Snape, who is almost the diametric opposite - good enough at the mechanics of teaching to pass his inspection, but who is so unpleasant to students like Harry, Neville and Hermione that they don't enjoy his lessons. Neither is ideal, but if I had to pick which of them I'd want to teach my (hypothetical) children, I'd pick Hagrid.


  #110  
Old February 13th, 2011, 5:17 pm
ccollinsmith's Avatar
ccollinsmith  Female.gif ccollinsmith is offline
Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!
 
Joined: 3614 days
Location: The Village
Posts: 2,271
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Actually, I think we do have canon on the academic standard of Snape's teaching - he passes Umbridge's inspection.

I know that Umbridge is malicious and biased, but it does seem to me that her other three assessments are spot on with what we know from canon (we know that McGonagall is an excellent teacher and, even though Umbridge loathes her, she passes her inspection; we know that Trelawney is a poor teacher - McGonagall and Hermione are both withering about her - and she fails; lovely as he is, it seems that in the academic sense, Hagrid is not a good teacher, as Hermione tries to help him with his lesson plans, because she knows he is in danger of failing - which he does), so I am minded to treat Umbridge's assessment that Snape's class are quite advanced in the subject for their age as accurate.

In my view, then, he's a teacher that gets academic results. What I am less certain about is whether that makes him a "good teacher". It seems to me that in OotP a contrast is set up between Hagrid - a teacher who is friendly and approachable, but not particularly good at teaching - and Snape, who is almost the diametric opposite - good enough at the mechanics of teaching to pass his inspection, but who is so unpleasant to students like Harry, Neville and Hermione that they don't enjoy his lessons. Neither is ideal, but if I had to pick which of them I'd want to teach my (hypothetical) children, I'd pick Hagrid.
Excellent analysis, Mel. I thought I'd add that I have spoken with people of Snape's age or older who went to British boarding schools, and they say that the way he teaches is how traditional boarding school classrooms operated. Students were supposed to fear the teacher. Students who did not learn their lessons or who talked out of turn were physically punished and/or humiliated and/or given a detention (often some rather quirky detention).

It wasn't just British upper crust boarding schools that operated this way, either. Well into the 1970s, parochial schools in the U.S. operated in a similar manner. It is how traditional education operated for hundreds of years. It's only when we reach later, more liberal, theories of education that public humiliation of students is discouraged (and rightly so, in my opinion). JKR, from what I gather, caught the tail end of this style of education and hated it.

I'm not admiring Snape's classroom tactics (except to the extent that he did get results). Rather, I'm pointing out that Snape is not unique in his methods. He is not coming out of nowhere. There are centuries of precedent for him. And at least he's not packing a ruler or brandishing a cane, as his RL antecedents would have been. He relies largely on snark, detention, and taking points.

Now here's the question I have: We know that Hogwarts and the WW in general seem to be somewhat behind the Muggle world, but it also seems clear that Hogwarts is moving into the newer pedagogical paradigm that the Muggle world has adopted... while Snape is still operating out of the older model. So what is it about Snape's personality that leads him to use a pedagogical methodology from the past?


__________________



Hogsmeade Awards 2013: Voted #1 - Biggest Cat Lover | Voted #2 - Most Creative Member |
Voted #2 - Most Likely to Make a Doctor Who Reference


VIVA LA GLITTELUTION!
  #111  
Old February 13th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4926 days
Location: England
Age: 51
Posts: 3,294
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I thought I'd add that I have spoken with people of Snape's age or older who went to British boarding schools, and they say that the way he teaches is how traditional boarding school classrooms operated. Students were supposed to fear the teacher. Students who did not learn their lessons or who talked out of turn were physically punished and/or humiliated and/or given a detention (often some rather quirky detention).
I don't know about that. I was educated in that system and while I would agree that the teaching was much more formal, teacher-based and strict than in the state system, the teachers were more like McGonagall than Snape.

IMO, his treatment of Harry, Neville and on occasions Hermione seems far more cruel and personal than I would expect, even of a very traditional boarding school teacher, based on my experience. I don't think that can be entirely explained away by his being a traditionalist.

Quote:
Now here's the question I have: We know that Hogwarts and the WW in general seem to be somewhat behind the Muggle world, but it also seems clear that Hogwarts is moving into the newer pedagogical paradigm that the Muggle world has adopted... while Snape is still operating out of the older model. So what is it about Snape's personality that leads him to use a pedagogical methodology from the past?
Again, I don't think I necessarily see it moving in that direction. Slughorn and Dumbledore both have a much more laidback, friendly approach to students than Snape, and yet they are a generation older than him. It seems to me that the teaching styles of the Hogwarts staff come down more to personality than methodological progress.


  #112  
Old February 13th, 2011, 6:05 pm
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 4918 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 30
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Good question. I think it's mainly a personal style, born out of his personality and life experiences, rather than a conscious adherence to what he considers traditional methods. Personally, I think he adopted this style of teaching early in his career from fear that as a young teacher he would not be respected (he did, after all start teaching when he was a mere 4 years older than the 7th years, some of whom would have seen SWM and any later incidents). And when he saw that this approach brought results, he continued it, finding that causing fear in his students gave him what he perceived to be a fair bit of authority.

As his name suggests, I think Severus is a very severe person, in judging both himself and others, and chooses to teach everyone (or, nearly everyone ) under those same high standards. IMO, he's a very intelligent and curious person, and he expects others to have a high level of competence, regardless of age. Additionally, I don't believe he has a particularly good view of the age group he teaches, his experience with them being tainted by his own victimization and poor choices at that age. After so many years, I think he feels himself forever doomed to teach a "bunch of dunderheads," but continues to expect them to perform in his class regardless.

We don't really know if anyone approached him about adopting new methods, but I don't think he'd be very happy with being given advice, or with losing the clout his scary reputation gave him. I'd like to point out, though, that although Hogwarts has some friendlier teachers, IMO, it's still a rather old-fashioned and often dangerous school. I don't think Snape really came up against too much pressure to change his teaching approach, nor do I think the question of tradition vs. progress ever really came up among the teachers.

I'm speaking here of his teaching in a general sense. I think his relationships with some students are rather complex and diverge from his general methods/attitudes. I could write pages upon pages about the Snape-Harry dynamic.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
  #113  
Old February 13th, 2011, 6:12 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5146 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I thought I'd add that I have spoken with people of Snape's age or older who went to British boarding schools, and they say that the way he teaches is how traditional boarding school classrooms operated. Students were supposed to fear the teacher. Students who did not learn their lessons or who talked out of turn were physically punished and/or humiliated and/or given a detention (often some rather quirky detention).
It wasn't just like that at boarding schools. I attended a state school and had teachers who used those methods.


Quote:
Now here's the question I have: We know that Hogwarts and the WW in general seem to be somewhat behind the Muggle world, but it also seems clear that Hogwarts is moving into the newer pedagogical paradigm that the Muggle world has adopted... while Snape is still operating out of the older model. So what is it about Snape's personality that leads him to use a pedagogical methodology from the past?
I think it is just possible that these are they methods he found most effective when he first started teaching at Hogwarts, and just never found the need or thought to change them.

If we remember Snape was only 21 when he began teaching, and had only been out of school himself for 3 years. This would mean that he would have been teaching students who were at Hogwarts whilst he was still a student himself.

When I was a young teacher I had to teach students who were only a few years younger than me. I found that due to the comparative closeness of our ages, they felt they could try and take liberties. So, if Snape encountered similar, I can see him adopting stategies that would put paid to any of that nonsense.


  #114  
Old February 13th, 2011, 6:28 pm
MsJPotter  Undisclosed.gif MsJPotter is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3204 days
Posts: 526
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[
Quote:
QUOTE=Daggerstone;5697911]We don't see Slughorn gasping in shock over "only a dozen people progressing to N.E.W.T. level", nor the OWL examination board rail against the state of Potions studies today, so I wouldn't know.

He's a pretty harsh teacher, but "lousy"? Canon doesn't qualify Snape either way, our personal definitions of "good teacher" do.
Yeah it is just my own opinion on it. I think he's a fairly lousy teacher because even though I think it's plain that he kind of loves Potions, he doesn't really seem to inspire any of his pupils to feel the same passion he does. When I think of his first speech and once you get past the insults to all of his pupils, it's plain, he loves his potions. I think, and again it just me thinking that even just a good teacher would have got one student who felt like that about something as fascinating as Potions. Slughorn did, he got Snape. As far as the thoughts of Slughorn and the Education people thought about the size of the class, who knows? I sure don't.

Quote:
Snape was a re-doubled agent, Su. Gods only know what kind of stratagem that entails in RL...
Kind of reminds me of an old movie I saw once where Peter Ustinov was visiting the American ambassador and the Russian ambassadors tellint them that the other side knew. 'Yeah we know they know.' 'Yeah we know they know we know.' Yeah we know they know we know they know we know.' Half a dozen visits and finally somebody had to be shocked that the other side knew


Quote:
So... why do you think Snape has Bieber fever, and which set of circumstances do you suppose have caused it, based on canon evidence and author's own words?

Snape has Bieber fever? How did you find out? You don't read The National Enquirer do you?


  #115  
Old February 13th, 2011, 7:16 pm
SadiraSnape  Female.gif SadiraSnape is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 3267 days
Location: happily doing Sir's laundry
Age: 62
Posts: 718
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJPotter View Post
I wasn't here weeks ago and I suppose I trust Snape to know what he is talking about. He knows what the 'Dark Arts' are a whole lot better than I do. If he says something is Dark Magic, I believe him.
I realize that. I was simply stating a fact, we discussed it weeks ago, and of course those earlier discussions are still available for perusal by anyone who wished to go back through the previous Snape thread. As a grounding in what passed before, if you will.

As for Snape being a "good" teacher, to me he seems not that different from many university professors I had. He is interested in presenting the material, and it is up to the student to pick it up. He doesn't spoonfeed it. He is impatient with students who make the same errors over and over. He has no tolerance for fools.

True, he doesn't try to make friends with students, he doesn't want to get in their personal lives (except Harry, because he made a promise to DD), and he's rough and abusive upon occasion (because we don't see him every single day). As Melaszka points out above, he is passed by Umbridge in her examination.

He is a teacher who gets results, and has for 16 years. However, IMHO he is better suited temperamentally to teaching higher level Potions (after secondary school) or working as a compounding apothecary, not teaching lower level students. His students should be in his classes because they want to be, not because it's a requirement.

Standard JMHO, YMMV disclaimer applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Now here's the question I have: We know that Hogwarts and the WW in general seem to be somewhat behind the Muggle world, but it also seems clear that Hogwarts is moving into the newer pedagogical paradigm that the Muggle world has adopted... while Snape is still operating out of the older model. So what is it about Snape's personality that leads him to use a pedagogical methodology from the past?
I believe it's a combination of how he was taught and his own personality. Severus is a brilliant man; he is also psychologically damaged; this combination can lead to a person who has taken such refuge in a life of the mind that he can't or won't relate to people he considers "beneath" him intellectually. He presents the material, then he leaves it up to the students to learn it. He probably considers anything else on his part to be "mollycoddling" of the students, and that they won't learn it if he "does the work" for them. This old style of teaching to the tune of a hickory stick (or in Severus' case, a sharp tongue and sharper wit) required a sharp division between student and teacher, demanded respect for the teacher, and produced very well-educated students.

This style was also around in public schools in the US while I was growing up (early 60's). It had pretty much died out by the time I was in middle school, but my elementary school days are full of elderly schoolmistresses who ruled with an iron fist! I can testify that we definitely learned well -- we were daresome to not learn the material! Yikes, Miss Watson can still give me nightmares...

We mustn't forget that generations of children were taught by these old, more brutal methods, and don't seem to have suffered by it. If old textbooks are any indication, they learned more advanced material at an earlier age than the couple of generations since the kinder, gentler methods came in...

Again, JMHO, YMMV.


__________________

Staunch Defender of Severus Snape
Proud Member of House Slytherin

LightMahogany27 -- Slytherin
Redwood wand with unicorn hair core
10 3/4 inches, unyielding


Check out my fanfiction, in collaboration with Sinistra_Furze: A Trip To Remember

Snape lives IMHO
  #116  
Old February 13th, 2011, 7:40 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4926 days
Location: England
Age: 51
Posts: 3,294
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by SadiraSnape View Post
I was simply stating a fact, we discussed it weeks ago, and of course those earlier discussions are still available for perusal by anyone who wished to go back through the previous Snape thread. As a grounding in what passed before, if you will.
New members should not feel under any pressure to read pages and pages of the thread before joining in. If they bring up a topic that's come up before, that's fine. Obviously, it's good if people read recent posts before leaping in, but there is no need to bone up on what was said weeks ago.


  #117  
Old February 13th, 2011, 7:41 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4600 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
So what is it about Snape's personality that leads him to use a pedagogical methodology from the past?
That he believed in being strict and keeping a distance from his students is I think the main reason (apart from his being a spy imo). The strictness I think was because he was dealing with a subject that was explosive at best and highly dangerous at worst. I think making the students feel that he was a no nonsense teacher who would not accept carelessness in his classes and who was strict and harsh and would be willing to hand out punishments if they were even a bit out of line, could be his way of keeping his class in hand.

I donít think he was a good teacher if a good teacher is defined by ďa teacher who was liked by most and was nice person to allĒ, but if a good teacher is defined as a teacher where students like Neville Longbottom who was known to be clumsy passed his OWLS, I think he was. I think he would be an excellent teacher to those who loved their subject and were genuinely interested in them, perhaps older students.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #118  
Old February 13th, 2011, 7:59 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4926 days
Location: England
Age: 51
Posts: 3,294
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
if a good teacher is defined as a teacher where students like Neville Longbottom who was known to be clumsy passed his OWLS, I think he was.
Do we actually know whether Neville passed his OWL or not? As he never opted to study Potions at NEWT level, that is one subject which doesn't come up in his interview with McGonagall where we learn most of Neville's results. As I recall, we do learn that Crabbe and Goyle fail (Snape uses Remedial Potions classes as an excuse to keep them from helping Draco in HBP), so he obviously doesn't get all his students through.

I think many of Snape's students would have done better if Snape had been less fearsome. We know, for example, that Neville excels at DADA under Harry's teaching, because he responds well to praise and encouragement. This has always suggested to me that he would have done better at Potions if Snape had tried a different tack.

Also, Harry (ironically) learns much more from PotionsBook!Snape, who explains things clearly and is fun, than he does from flesh and blood Snape in class. I've always thought it very sad that Snape as a teacher never managed to convey the enthusiasm he shows in his Potions book.

That's not to say that I don't think Snape gets good results in class (Harry and Hermione both get the same mark for Potions as they do for Transfiguration, which suggests that Snape is doing an OK job). But I think he could have got even better results if he had been less intimidating.

Quote:
I think he would be an excellent teacher to those who loved their subject and were genuinely interested in them, perhaps older students.
I think I agree with this (although I do think his treatment of Hermione does raise some questions about his treatment of gifted, enthusiastic students, as well). I also think he makes a much better DADA teacher than a Potions teacher (Ernie Macmillan and Hermione both give his first DADA lesson good feedback) and things might have been different if he could have taught his first choice of subject.



Last edited by Melaszka; February 13th, 2011 at 8:05 pm.
  #119  
Old February 13th, 2011, 8:14 pm
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5949 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Do we actually know whether Neville passed his OWL or not? As he never opted to study Potions at NEWT level, that is one subject which doesn't come up in his interview with McGonagall where we learn most of Neville's results.
I always figured Neville must have made an "Acceptable" since he didn't have to do Remedial Potions, and McGonagall says "Acceptable" wasn't good enough to get into a Newt class in Transfiguration. Considering he was worried about dropping Transfiguration due to his Gran's opinion, she probably wouldn't have allowed him to flunk a subject and not repeat it for a better grade.

I just checked the book and McGonagall doesn't make any comment on Potions, so he must not have failed.

Harry got an "Exceeds Expectations" on his Potions Owl plus his career goal was to be an Auror, which is why McGonagall made him sign up for Slughorn's class along with Ron.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
  #120  
Old February 13th, 2011, 8:14 pm
MsJPotter  Undisclosed.gif MsJPotter is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3204 days
Posts: 526
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Do we actually know whether Neville passed his OWL or not? As he never opted to study Potions at NEWT level, that is one subject which doesn't come up in his interview with McGonagall where we learn most of Neville's results. As I recall, we do learn that Crabbe and Goyle fail (Snape uses Remedial Potions classes as an excuse to keep them from helping Draco in HBP), so he obviously doesn't get all his students through.

I think many of Snape's students would have done better if Snape had been less fearsome. We know, for example, that Neville excels at DADA under Harry's teaching, because he responds well to praise and encouragement. This has always suggested to me that he would have done better at Potions if Snape had tried a different tack.

Also, Harry (ironically) learns much more from PotionsBook!Snape, who explains things clearly and is fun, than he does from flesh and blood Snape in class. I've always thought it very sad that Snape as a teacher never managed to convey the enthusiasm he shows in his Potions book.

That's not to say that I don't think Snape gets good results in class (Harry and Hermione both get the same mark for Potions as they do for Transfiguration, which suggests that Snape is doing an OK job). But I think he could have got even better results if he had been less intimidating.



I think I agree with this (although I do think his treatment of Hermione does raise some questions about his treatment of gifted, enthusiastic students, as well). I also think he makes a much better DADA teacher than a Potions teacher (Ernie Macmillan and Hermione both give his first DADA lesson good feedback) and things might have been different if he could have taught his first choice of subject.
He probably got a A for Acceptable to my mind. Both he and Harry speak about how much better the examination went without Snape breathing down their necks. Neville always seemed to be 10 times worse when Snape was around. I think that Snape would have got a lot better results if he had been less intimidating. Great way to put it. I don't know if I'm that impressed by Snape passing Umbridge's inspection. I don't if I'm impressed or got a good case of the heebie jeebies

PS, I did read a lot of pages before posting but there were only 4 or 5 pages in this thread.



Last edited by MsJPotter; February 13th, 2011 at 8:16 pm.
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks

Tags
cake death or snape?, severus snape, snape, snape has bieber fever


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:40 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.