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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #181  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 10:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
It's not that simple. During the time of HBP I entirely agree with you. But once, in DH, Voldemort started his foreign travels seeking the wand, it might arguably have lessened that peril to have Snape remove the wand secretly from the tomb and hide it in some place totally unrelated to Dumbledore, Grindelwald, or Gregorovitch.

Of course, at that point Snape's choice to kill Dumbledore was made and done with. Though I suppose, if he had been told, he would still have had the option of flight open to him, an option he indeed always enjoyed (but did not take). It's a choice TGW figures Snape would never have taken, I gather, but I guess she feels it should still have been a fully informed choice by him to stay.
I agree Snape should have had a fully informed choice - and also that his getting the wand from the tomb and hiding it would have been a good idea. Maybe Dumbledore didn't feel he could risk that. Voldemort would go into a rage and likely torture the information out of Snape's mind after weakening him considerably. Whether or not that would be possible Dumbledore did not know, but perhaps he simply did not wish to chance it.

But this choice was one of many that Dumbledore made that was less than morally upstanding, imo. Thus, in a way, since it was his modus operendi to act in such a manner, one couldn't really expect him to act contrarily when it came to Snape. Kingsley, Lupin, Sirius, Harry and others would give you an earful about Dumbledore's mechanisms I am sure. The distinction here is that we are talking about life and death. But I have to ask myself if some of the others were not also put in similar conditions without their knowing about it and just came out lucky. I would not put it past Dumbledore.


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  #182  
Old February 4th, 2008, 12:02 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I don't think that Dumbledore would have asked Snape to hide the wand. Dumbledore had always intended for Voldemort to think that Snape was the Master of the Wand. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had been obsessed with getting the wand ever since the graveyard scene. Dumbledore may even have preferred that Voldemort get the wand sooner than later because he knew that the wand would not work properly for him. The only reasons to slow Voldemort down would be to give Harry more time to hunt horcruxes and for Snape to live longer. But the end result was going to be Snape's death regardless of how long it took to get the wand.

Dumbledore did many things to insure that Snape remained a loyal spy in Voldemort's camp. I think Dumbledore would have felt that it was necessary to keep Snape away from the wand for this very reason. Loyal spies play certain roles and hiding the wand would be something that in my opinion a spy wouldn't be asked to do because it would compromise his role as a spy.


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  #183  
Old February 4th, 2008, 12:24 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Dumbledore did many things to insure that Snape remained a loyal spy in Voldemort's camp. I think Dumbledore would have felt that it was necessary to keep Snape away from the wand for this very reason. Loyal spies play certain roles and hiding the wand would be something that in my opinion a spy wouldn't be asked to do because it would compromise his role as a spy.
Snape's role shifted after he killed Dumbledore, anyway. He was not asked to discover any information, the traditional activity of a spy. Instead, he acted as Dumbledore's proxy - trying to protect the students, doing things for Dumbledore that he could no longer do as a portrait (like passing the sword to Harry), and passing on his final secret to Harry.


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  #184  
Old February 4th, 2008, 1:55 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Snape's role shifted after he killed Dumbledore, anyway. He was not asked to discover any information, the traditional activity of a spy. Instead, he acted as Dumbledore's proxy - trying to protect the students, doing things for Dumbledore that he could no longer do as a portrait (like passing the sword to Harry), and passing on his final secret to Harry.
I agree with you that the role changed. He continued to do the things he could do for the good side without compromising his position with Voldemort. But they were also the things that Dumbledore wanted Snape to do. It would have been an extremely easy thing for Dumbledore to say, "by the way, try and hide that wand after you kill me" and Snape would have done it. He wouldn't have to know why, he would have done it no questions asked. But it appears as if Dumbledore didn't want him to do it.


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  #185  
Old February 4th, 2008, 2:40 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I would say that Snape's role changed in the eyes of the Order. But fundamentally his role didn't change. He was still supposed to pass information to Voldemort as a spy (i.e., 7 Potters raid - keep abreast of Voldy's plans). All of the tasks that Snape did were small side jobs - his primary function was to keep up his role as a spy. That was crucial to Dumbledore's plan with the Elder Wand. I too believe Dumbledore wished for Voldemort to get a hold of the Elder Wand - he slowed Harry down in his travels and gave Voldemort a chance to do just that. Voldemort with a useless wand would make him very vulnerable to death. Dumbledore planned for Snape to be the fall guy in that scenario, imo and he should have told him, but he didn't.


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  #186  
Old February 4th, 2008, 4:33 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
It's not that simple. During the time of HBP I entirely agree with you. But once, in DH, Voldemort started his foreign travels seeking the wand, it might arguably have lessened that peril to have Snape remove the wand secretly from the tomb and hide it in some place totally unrelated to Dumbledore, Grindelwald, or Gregorovitch.
I really don't think Dumbledore would have taken that option. He had been planning for Harry's confrontation with Voldemort I think from Halloween of 1981. And for his war against Voldemort himself, Dumbledore has been working even longer. His memories with the Gaunts seem to belong to a time when Harry was not even born. I don't know when he caught on to the idea of horcruxes, but he seems to seem to have been working on them for a long time. When Harry got the Phoenix wand; Dumbledore had one more thing fall into place.

From the time Harry returned from the graveyard and Dumbledore knew about the blood transfusion that took place that night; I think he started planning to finally defeat Voldemort and still have Harry living. Until then he I think he had no idea how to make Harry live and still defeat Voldemort. I also think he may have had inkling about a Harry being a horcrux from 2nd year when it came to light that Harry could speak Parseltongue.

He says so to Harry in the King’s Cross chapter that from the he knew Voldemort would go after the wand from GOF. Originally I think Dumbledore planned to stage a death where he would somehow make Voldemort end up with the Elder wand. Only that death became a real thing when the horcrux almost killed him.

Voldemort ending up with a wand that was unbeatable, but one that would not work wll for him, was IMO the main plan of one Albus Dumbledore, since Harry’s fifth year. to that end he had been trying hard to get the horcruxes and destroy them to make Harry’s job easier. Only he could not help beyond what he did, because he was dying. But the plan to make Voldemort think he was the master of a wand that would never work for him was never changed.

Perhaps he meant to use Snape from the beginning; because he was the one who had a foot on each side; perhaps he intended to use Snape only after he knew he was dying; I don’t know, but this plan was always on.

This plan also meant only one thing. The death of the said person. Voldemort would kill, if only to make sure the wand would be his completely. So it was a deliberate and intentional plan to send whoever it was to die so that Harry could live. For that I think the intention should have been made known to the person concerned and choice to lay down his life should have come from him.

Even Harry was only told he had to die at the hands of Voldemort for Voldemort to be completely vanquished. The choice to walk into the forest was Harry’s, not Dumbledore’s. so the question remains is, did Dumbledore give such a choice to Snape or did he make that choice for him. I think it was the latter, only because there seems to be nothing in the books to suggest, imply or tell us taht Snape knew about it. Only I hope I am wrong and it was the former.


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  #187  
Old February 4th, 2008, 4:37 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think you've posted an excellent summation of the issues. And it was somewhat callous of Dumbledore to put Snape in that position. However, I think that Dumbledore made the right choice in not informing Snape. Although, Dumbledore couldn't be sure that Voldemort would even seek the wand when he began his plan.


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  #188  
Old February 4th, 2008, 5:02 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
posted by DH - King's Cross
'But you expected him to go after the wand?'

'I have been sure he would try, ever since your wand beat Voldemort's in the graveyard of Little Hangleton. At first, he was afraid, you had conquered him by superior skill. Once he had kidnapped Ollivander however, he discovered the existence of twin cores. He thought that explained everything. Yet the borrowed wand did no better against yours! So Voldmoert instead of asking himself what quality it ws in you that had made your wand so strong, what gift you possessed that he did not, naturally set out to find the one wand, they said, would beat anyother. For him the Elder wand has become an obsession to rival his obsession with you. He believes that the Elder wand removes his last weakness and makes him truly invincible. Poor Severus....'
The above tells us that Dumbledore knew Voldemort would go after the wand. And if he did not tell Snape while alive about the Elder wand, he could have safely told him after he became a portrait, because even if Voldemort got that bit from him, and killed Snape, the wand will not work for him; Draco was the master of the Elder wand and no one else except Dumbledore knew that fact.

By telling Snape, he was also allowing Snape to make alternate preparations in case Voldemort would catch on to the Wand before Snape could pass on the memories to Harry. Snape had been asked by Dumbledore to hand over the message only when Voldemort would protect Nagini in a certain manner; that is when Voldemort realized that all his other horcruxes were gone and that Nagini alone stood between mortality and immortality.

So that demanded Snape to be alive and well and without arousing the suspicion of Voldemort or his death eaters in any way until then.
That brings in a doubt. The time Voldemort took to catch on to the elder wand coincided neatly with everything, what if he had caught on earlier?

It was important Snape made provisions in case Voldemort turned more mad than he was and killed off snape. Even if we ignore the right and wrong of Dumbledore's action, logically, it would make more sense to have Snape know about the Elder wand, because Dumbledore wanted Harry to live IMO. If Harry was expendable, then I suppose it would really not matter.

But for Harry to live, it was also important for Snape to live until the message was handed over to Harry.


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  #189  
Old February 4th, 2008, 6:06 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

It occurs to me that all this discussion about setting Snape up so Voldemort would kill him and think he mastered the Elder Wand, assumes at its very foundation that Albus Dumbledore trusted Snape completely. Trusted his loyalty, and, even more, trusted his good heart as well.

Think about it - he told Snape that he had been raising Harry like a 'pig for slaughter' all the while Snape sweated and risked himself to keep Harry safe. Snape was furious at this revelation and stated he was betrayed by Dumbledore.

Why does this matter? It is my contention that, if Dumbledore still had his wand, what would have mattered in determining the outcome of the wand's loyalty, was Snape's state of mind. If Snape had killed in anger or in revenge, or for any other selfish motive of his own, he would have won the wand by killing Dumbledore. It is not Dumbledore's willingness to die, it is Snape's reason for killing that must count.

Otherwise, if it was Dumbledore's intent that mattered, it would be fine to let any old Death Eater take the fall, right? Dumbledore could just pretend to be too weak to fight, and let himself be killed by Yaxley or Greyback or whomever. If it was necessary for Snape to do it, this had to be because Dumbledore knew he would do it for the right reasons.

And Snape winning the wand, is not an acceptable risk, because if he did, then so would Voldemort when Voldemort killed him, which would lead to the worst case scenario of Voldmeort claiming the wand and being its true master.


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  #190  
Old February 4th, 2008, 6:49 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
It occurs to me that all this discussion about setting Snape up so Voldemort would kill him and think he mastered the Elder Wand, assumes at its very foundation that Albus Dumbledore trusted Snape completely. Trusted his loyalty, and, even more, trusted his good heart as well.

Think about it - he told Snape that he had been raising Harry like a 'pig for slaughter' all the while Snape sweated and risked himself to keep Harry safe. Snape was furious at this revelation and stated he was betrayed by Dumbledore.

Why does this matter? It is my contention that, if Dumbledore still had his wand, what would have mattered in determining the outcome of the wand's loyalty, was Snape's state of mind. If Snape had killed in anger or in revenge, or for any other selfish motive of his own, he would have won the wand by killing Dumbledore. It is not Dumbledore's willingness to die, it is Snape's reason for killing that must count.

Otherwise, if it was Dumbledore's intent that mattered, it would be fine to let any old Death Eater take the fall, right? Dumbledore could just pretend to be too weak to fight, and let himself be killed by Yaxley or Greyback or whomever. If it was necessary for Snape to do it, this had to be because Dumbledore knew he would do it for the right reasons.

And Snape winning the wand, is not an acceptable risk, because if he did, then so would Voldemort when Voldemort killed him, which would lead to the worst case scenario of Voldmeort claiming the wand and being its true master.
I agree with almost everything you have written, but I would like to know one thing, would this also apply after Draco became the Master of the Elder wand?

Almost everything you’ve written, because even if Snape knew, and I agree Dumbledore trusted him completely, as far as he could trust another anyway, there were again 2 choices in front of Snape. One to secretly kill Dumbledore seriously and with intent and become Master of the Elder wand, and the other was to kill Dumbledore as Dumbledore asked him to in the first place. If Dumbledore had told Snape about this, it would mean that he thought Snape would act as he intended Snape to; that is to kill him on his orders. But if Dumbledore did not trust Snape fully and felt that Snape may have been tempted and would spoil the plans, then he was not trusting Snape as he said he did.

Once Dumbledore died, the point was moot, because the wand had already changed hands to Draco and was now acknowledging Draco as its master and then Harry.

I firmly believe Snape’s intention would have never changed, I realize Dumbledore may not feel as I do, but there was nothing to stop him from telling Snape about the wand after his death and after the wand had already changed masters.


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  #191  
Old February 4th, 2008, 7:20 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I agree with almost everything you have written, but I would like to know one thing, would this also apply after Draco became the Master of the Elder wand?
I do not understand the question.

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Almost everything you’ve written, because even if Snape knew, and I agree Dumbledore trusted him completely, as far as he could trust another anyway, there were again 2 choices in front of Snape. One to secretly kill Dumbledore seriously and with intent and become Master of the Elder wand, and the other was to kill Dumbledore as Dumbledore asked him to in the first place.
I disagree with the two choices you present for Snape, and especially, that he only had one choice if he did not know about the wand.

Draco did not disarm Dumbledore with any intent beyond trying to carry out his orders from Vodemort - in particular, he had no idea he was dealing with the Elder Wand. But he became the master anyway. Why? Because he acted with the intent to defeat Dumbledore, and did.

So, my opinion is, if Snape in the end killed Dumbledore because he was worried about dying of the Vow, or because he was furious at the way Dumbledore had manipulated him, or some reason other than because Dumbledore wished it, he could have become the master of the wand even without knowing it. (Obviously not the way things turned out, because of Draco. But Dumbledore was not planning on Draco).

To be clear, I do not think these were Snape's reasons for acting. But if they had been, they would have been a 'flaw in the plan' in their own right, and a flaw Dumbledore should have feared, unless he really trusted Snape.


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  #192  
Old February 4th, 2008, 8:18 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I do not understand the question.
Would Snape's state of mind or intent be an issue even after Dumbledore died and Draco has already become master of the Elder wand?

Quote:
I disagree with the two choices you present for Snape, and especially, that he only had one choice if he did not know about the wand.
What other choices could have been there for Dumbledore? I could not think of any other than these two.

Quote:
Draco did not disarm Dumbledore with any intent beyond trying to carry out his orders from Vodemort - in particular, he had no idea he was dealing with the Elder Wand. But he became the master anyway. Why? Because he acted with the intent to defeat Dumbledore, and did.


Quote:
So, my opinion is, if Snape in the end killed Dumbledore because he was worried about dying of the Vow, or because he was furious at the way Dumbledore had manipulated him, or some reason other than because Dumbledore wished it, he could have become the master of the wand even without knowing it. (Obviously not the way things turned out, because of Draco. But Dumbledore was not planning on Draco).
He had a whole year to make up his mind on the issue IMO. Snape would have calmed his mind and decided one way or the other long before the time rolled around to the end of the year.

Quote:
To be clear, I do not think these were Snape's reasons for acting. But if they had been, they would have been a 'flaw in the plan' in their own right, and a flaw Dumbledore should have feared, unless he really trusted Snape.
I see.

I have'nt been arguing against the action itself; only against the issue that it should have been Snape's choice because this was a deliberately, planned action that had only one result. Death or sacrifice of one person. I am on the side that Dumbledore had no right to take such an action without Snape's consent and knowlege because of that.

Quote:
I also think Snape woul not do any of the above, but what other choices could have been there for Dumbledore?
I agree completely. Snape would have never done anything else but what we see in the books; as you said in an earlier post, the books we read would not be any different.

I really don't know what other choices Dumbledore had apart from this. I need to think on that, before I can answer, if I can.

Oh, and I wrote the last lines 2 times in this post.


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  #193  
Old February 4th, 2008, 4:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Would Snape's state of mind or intent be an issue even after Dumbledore died and Draco has already become master of the Elder wand?
No, my idea has to do with his (or anyone's) state of mind when killing the previous master of the Elder Wand.

Quote:
What other choices could have been there for Dumbledore? I could not think of any other than these two.
My idea is that Dumbledore's choices are not relevant. If the whole plan works because Albus 'lets' Snape kill him, regardless of Snape's intent, then the same plan should work if Greyback kills him - Dumbleore can just 'let' him do it as well. The thing that was supposed to make the diffference, was why Snape did it.

Quote:
He had a whole year to make up his mind on the issue IMO. Snape would have calmed his mind and decided one way or the other long before the time rolled around to the end of the year.
Not if he was vindictive and unable to forget what Dumbledore had done. (Which is why I believe this was not Dumbledore's opinion of him).

Quote:
I have'nt been arguing against the action itself; only against the issue that it should have been Snape's choice because this was a deliberately, planned action that had only one result. Death or sacrifice of one person. I am on the side that Dumbledore had no right to take such an action without Snape's consent and knowlege because of that.
I realize that.

I think Dumbledore did not tell Snape, to give the plan the best chance of working, once he realized the result of Snape killing him would be Voldemort thinking he's the master.

Related question, for everyone. I was looking at the DH timeline, and realized that Voldemort gets the wand right after the escape from Malfoy Manor. But the Trio spend weeks planning the Gringotts operation. So Voldemort has the Elder Wand for some 6 weeks or so before the final action sequenes of the book.

And, the text indicates that Snape knows this. First, he ought to notice the new wand, Voldemort and his wand problems are something all the DEs present in Chapter 1 and especially the Seven Potters raid would be aware of. (Snape was at both). Second, in "The Elder Wand" when Snape and Voldemort speak, Snape tells Voldemort he has seen Voldemort do amazing magic 'with that wand', which cionfirms he has indeed notices 'that' wand as opposed to any previous one.

'That' wand, of course, is the wand that Dumbledore was using all his life. I do think Snape would recognize it after 15 years at Hogwarts with Albus, and sooner rather than later.

So my question...would he have mentioned to Albus that Voldemort had started to use his wand? And what would Albus's response have been?

It has occured to me that if Snape and Albuis did have a chat about the Elder Wand at this point, this is not a memory Snape could share with Harry. He believes Harry is done for, and the advantage of Voldemort only thinking he is the master of the wand, is for the survivors, not for Harry. Since Harry can't do Occlumency, showing Harry a memory in which the Elder Wand business is explained just before Harry goes to face Voldemort, would be stupid.


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  #194  
Old February 4th, 2008, 6:32 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Quote:
posted by zgirnius
No, my idea has to do with his (or anyone's) state of mind when killing the previous master of the Elder Wand.
Any other than Harry would have been tempted by it. Snape would have been terribly tempted by the wand, but I think his love for Lily would ultimately triumph and he would kill Dumbledore on his orders, if Dumbledore had told him.

Quote:
My idea is that Dumbledore's choices are not relevant. If the whole plan works because Albus 'lets' Snape kill him, regardless of Snape's intent, then the same plan should work if Greyback kills him - Dumbleore can just 'let' him do it as well. The thing that was supposed to make the diffference, was why Snape did it.
This is a very interesting idea and I think if Greyback killed Dumbledore and Dumbledore passively accepted it, he would have still died as Master of the Elder wand. Even if Draco killed him, I think if Dumbledore passively allowed himself to die, the wand still be his, because the main condition of winning in a serious life and death situation that would not be fulfilled and the wand which is supposedly ruthless and extremely dispassionate will not change masters because the magical strength, which alone it recognizes is not challenged.

Dumbledore did not allow Draco to kill him, even though he could have just accepted it, because he did not want Draco to become a killer in his mind, which is what would have happened. Draco would not have known about the Elder wand and would have become a killer to himself. Dumbledore I think wished to avoid that.

Dumbledore wanted Snape to do it, because that will establish Snape firmly in Voldemort camp and all allegations that Bella and other death eaters were throwing about in his face would stop and Snape would not be suspected, because Dumbledore also needed him for another important reason, to pass on the message to Harry. That was very important to Dumbeldore, because I think he wanted Harry to live and for that he needed his messenger safe from Voldemort's suspicions.

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Not if he was vindictive and unable to forget what Dumbledore had done. (Which is why I believe this was not Dumbledore's opinion of him).
I agree.

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So my question...would he have mentioned to Albus that Voldemort had started to use his wand? And what would Albus's response have been?
Snape I think would have known about the wand the night Voldemort broke the tomb and took it out. Snape walks with Voldemort until Voldemort sends him back and I think Snape would have seen what Voldemort was upto and would have had his talk with Dumbledore then. Dumbledore could have told him about the wand then, or could have suggested to Snape that Voldemort wanted his wand to kill Harry with it as a special victory. Both possible IMO.

Dumbledore could have told Snape about the wand then, but why would Harry say that little plan did not work out right?

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posted by DH - King's Cross
‘If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder wand, didn’t you?’

‘I admit that was my intention,’ Said Dumbledore, ‘but it did not work as I intended, did it?’

‘No,’ said Harry, ‘that bit did not work out.’
Not the way *we* (Snape and Dumbledore) intended, but *I* intended could mean Snape did not know. Another way of looking at it could be, he and Snape intended Snape to end with the elder wand, but Draco ended up with it.


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  #195  
Old February 4th, 2008, 7:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Any other than Harry would have been tempted by it. Snape would have been terribly tempted by the wand, but I think his love for Lily would ultimately triumph and he would kill Dumbledore on his orders, if Dumbledore had told him.
I don't agree that Harry would be the only one. Albus considers himself marginally able to deal with the lure of the wand, and I actually think that Snape would not have been vulnerable to the lure of the wand. Dumbledore describes what it is about his own character that made him 'worthy' to handle the wand, and basically it was that he did not need to advertise his possession of it and the abilities this gave him. I find Snape to be similar to Albus in this regard, because he clearly lived his adult life in such a way that he hid a good deal of his natural talent from the world anyway. Who knew he was a Potions and DADA genius three books into the series, not to mention thge Occlumency thing?

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This is a very interesting idea and I think if Greyback killed Dumbledore and Dumbledore passively accepted it, he would have still died as Master of the Elder wand.
I find this illogical. If this is true, why have Snape do it? Dumbledore really does have better uses for Snape than getting him killed, if there is an alternative (as you claim). I agree Draco may not be an acceptable alternative, but another, adult DE who is already a hardened criminal should have been just fine.

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Dumbledore wanted Snape to do it, because that will establish Snape firmly in Voldemort camp
Ah, an answer to the question I just posed. If Snape stood by and cheered, surely this would help in that direction? And then there was the 7 Potters, as additional ammunition.

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Dumbledore could have told Snape about the wand then, but why would Harry say that little plan did not work out right?
Because part of the plan was that the wand would be neutralized, right? Since Draco did become the master, this part did not go as planned, and in an alternative universe in which Voldemort killed Snape earlier, he might eventually have also figured out even killing Snape did not do the trick. At which point he might have figured out it was Draco he needed to kill. Which would still not work, because he was way too late...


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  #196  
Old February 4th, 2008, 8:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I don't agree that Harry would be the only one. Albus considers himself marginally able to deal with the lure of the wand, and I actually think that Snape would not have been vulnerable to the lure of the wand. Dumbledore describes what it is about his own character that made him 'worthy' to handle the wand, and basically it was that he did not need to advertise his possession of it and the abilities this gave him. I find Snape to be similar to Albus in this regard, because he clearly lived his adult life in such a way that he hid a good deal of his natural talent from the world anyway.
I thought Harry would be the only one, because he never wants it from the begining, while Dumbledore stayed away for it when he realized its ruthless quality. Snape I thought would have wondered and may have been tempted by the powers of such a wand, but I agree with you on this. Snape and Dumbledore are very similar IMO too.

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Who knew he was a Potions and DADA genius three books into the series, not to mention thge Occlumency thing?
Yes.

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I find this illogical. If this is true, why have Snape do it? Dumbledore really does have better uses for Snape than getting him killed, if there is an alternative (as you claim). I agree Draco may not be an acceptable alternative, but another, adult DE who is already a hardened criminal should have been just fine.
I just don't have the absolutely correct answers to this right away, but I'll give it a shot. The reason is while Harry may be expendable, Dumbledore did not think so. He says and those are revealing words, in the OOPT.

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OOTP -- The Lost Prophecy ----bold mine.

'Do you see Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now? I had fallen into the trap I had forseen, that I had told myself, I could avoid, that I must
avoid.'

'I don't --'

'I cared about you too much,' said Dumbledore simply. 'I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act.'
Perhaps he sooo did not want Harry to die, he went ahead and planned all this and set up Snape for the message that was imperative for Harry to have if he needed to survive this and walk out alive. For that Snape had to be safe and above suspicion until he does his job. Lame, but I can't think of anything else now.

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Ah, an answer to the question I just posed. If Snape stood by and cheered, surely this would help in that direction? And then there was the 7 Potters, as additional ammunition.
Not with Voldemort IMO; he was loony and paranoid enough to kill because you cheered.

But if Snape killed Dumbledore then Voldemort would have no suspicion at all; more than the 7 Potters and other things. This was big; huge and would have settled Snape’s loyalty forever. And that’s what it actually does.


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  #197  
Old February 4th, 2008, 9:44 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Perhaps he sooo did not want Harry to die, he went ahead and planned all this and set up Snape for the message that was imperative for Harry to have if he needed to survive this and walk out alive. For that Snape had to be safe and above suspicion until he does his job. Lame, but I can't think of anything else now.
I agree that, after the defeat of Voldemort, Harry's survival and well-being were paramount for Dumbledore. However, this is why I thought it would make sense to use another Death Eater as the fall guy if that were actually an option. Because if Snape is the fall guy and the guy with the all-important message that will help Harry to survive being de-Horcruxed, there is the danger that Snape will be killed before he completed his mission.


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Old February 5th, 2008, 9:28 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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posted by zgirnius
I agree that, after the defeat of Voldemort, Harry's survival and well-being were paramount for Dumbledore. However, this is why I thought it would make sense to use another Death Eater as the fall guy if that were actually an option. Because if Snape is the fall guy and the guy with the all-important message that will help Harry to survive being de-Horcruxed, there is the danger that Snape will be killed before he completed his mission.
I think Harry’s well being was an important factor to Dumbledore ever since Harry came to Hogwarts. Before that Dumbledore did not know Harry, but once he came to School and Dumbledore saw the unassuming and rather deprived boy (emotionally) I think Dumbledore slowly started liking and then loving Harry as his own. We see evidence of that in the OOTP.

Until Harry’s return from the graveyard, Dumbledore IMO had no clue how to save Harry’s life, because I think he suspected Harry of being a horcrux from Harry’s second year or even before that, perhaps. But after Harry’s return from the graveyard, Dumbledore’s gleam of triumph shows that he had found a way to keep Harry alive. Lily’s blood now ran in Voldemort and that would keep Harry anchored to the earth, when the horcrux would be destroyed, just what happened exactly.

From then on Dumbledore I think plans to help Harry destroy the horcruxes and also plan for Harry to live after the war. Every single thing he does works towards the twin goal of saving Harry and bringing down Voldemort. He starts to work and puts every little piece in place, one by one.

For that Snape was an important piece that had to be played very carefully. Snape had be above suspicion from Voldemort and also be favoured by him (Voldemort) so that the DE would not dare touch him. So that would entail an act by Snape of such apparent loyalty that Voldemort would never suspect him. Dumbledore’s death was something no one, not even Voldemort who would kill his own shadow, because he was suspicious could overlook. In HBP we see Peter, who is supposedly there to help Snape, but could have also been there to report to Voldemort about him. Bellatrix openly suspects him and it is only after he gives Narcissa the vow, she falls silent, but IMO is still not convinced.

All this would stop and did stop after Snape killed Dumbledore. That was why I felt the 7 Potters were not necessary and it resulted in the loss of life that could be avoided. But perhaps Dumbledore was not willing to take even the smallest chance.

I also don’t understand why Snape need not know about the wand. Perhaps what you said about Snape knowing but not telling that to Harry through the memories was also true. But then, why did not Dumbledore say that Snape knew in KC when he talks to Harry?

I agree with most points you make, but something this big has not found place in canon, which should have IMO. Without Snape, Dumbledore could not have planned half the things he did and telling Snape about the wand I think should have been there in the books. A line would have sufficed IMO. But it is not there, leaving open Dumbledore’s actions in this case to both positive and negative viewing about whether his actions were intentional or not.

Snape, when he meets Voldemort in the shack, is not prepared a he would have been, if he knew about the Elder wand. That also makes me feel he did not know.


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Old February 5th, 2008, 9:45 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

But Dumbledore's actions about the wand don't need to be interpreted negatively. I think that Dumbledore wisely chose to retain any information that wasn't necessary for others to complete their mission. And in Snape's case, Dumbledore had already expressed concern about Voldemort learning important secrets (like the Horcruxes).


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Old February 6th, 2008, 4:22 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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But Dumbledore's actions about the wand don't need to be interpreted negatively. I think that Dumbledore wisely chose to retain any information that wasn't necessary for others to complete their mission. And in Snape's case, Dumbledore had already expressed concern about Voldemort learning important secrets (like the Horcruxes).
I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying Dumbledore did not plan for Snape to die, the story makes sense without it (in which case, I agree)? Or are you saying it was OK for him to plan for Snape to die? (In which case, this is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of ethical standards. If I believed Dumbledore planned things as SusanBones has suggested, I would not be able to overlook it).


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