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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3



 
 
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  #1501  
Old July 16th, 2011, 8:17 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by Urbanite1984 View Post
Remember the Fidelius charm and the plot arc of Prisoner of Azkaban? In Deathly Hallows we learn that it is possible to be one's own Secret Keeper - Bill and Arthur were each their own Secret Keeper. So Bill was Bill's Secret Keeper and Arthur was Arthur's. So there was no need for Lily and James to have employed anyone else as their Secret Keeper. Either of them could have done it and Voldemort would never have been able to find them. That crash you heard was the entire story of Lily and James being betrayed and the foundation of Prisoner of Azkaban.
I think there would be an advantages and disadvantages with each choice. There is no reason to believe that Bill's choice of making himself secret keeper is the better choice. Also, remember that Jame's and Lily's circumstances were quite different than Bills. Bill and Arthur were hiding from possible DE attacks because of Ron's association with Harry and it wasn't meant to be a permanent solution, IMHO. They only had to wait out the end of the war depending on the outcome. Plus they hardly meant to stay in hiding when the chance to fight came.

The Potters were hiding from Voldemort himself and it was meant to be a permanent solution. They were never meant to be found or participate in a fight. If their secret keeper died the secret of their location would have died and they still would have been protected.

The two cases were completely different and each solution had its own problems. I don't think that by comparing the two one invalidates the other or exposes problems in the narrative.


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  #1502  
Old July 16th, 2011, 8:30 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by Urbanite1984 View Post
Remember the Fidelius charm and the plot arc of Prisoner of Azkaban? In Deathly Hallows we learn that it is possible to be one's own Secret Keeper - Bill and Arthur were each their own Secret Keeper. So Bill was Bill's Secret Keeper and Arthur was Arthur's. So there was no need for Lily and James to have employed anyone else as their Secret Keeper. Either of them could have done it and Voldemort would never have been able to find them. That crash you heard was the entire story of Lily and James being betrayed and the foundation of Prisoner of Azkaban.
I always believed that they would have considered it a great dishonor not to trust their friends with their secrets. Sirius and Peter (they thought) were two of Lily and James' closest friends, and it would have seemed wrong, definitely to James at least, to not tell them where they were hiding.

willfitz, I think you are right. I think I remember Flitwick in PoA saying something along the lines of, "Voldemort could have walked up to their window and he wouldn't have been able to see them inside their home." The Death Eaters must have known where they were hiding at least, because it was in their own house. I got the impression that even if you are aware of the Fideliused location, you still can not get in unless you have been told by the Secret Keeper (like in DH, when the Death Eaters hang out outside Grimmauld Place).


  #1503  
Old July 16th, 2011, 8:32 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

Why didn't Voldemort kill Snape with an Avada Kedavra? It seems that killing Snape with Nagini was just a convenient way for JK Rowling to keep Snape alive long enough to pass on his memories to Harry.


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  #1504  
Old July 16th, 2011, 9:09 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by Nnylarak View Post
Why didn't Voldemort kill Snape with an Avada Kedavra? It seems that killing Snape with Nagini was just a convenient way for JK Rowling to keep Snape alive long enough to pass on his memories to Harry.
It was certainly convenient for Rowling to use Nagini but that doesn't mean it wasn't something Voldemort would choose to do. Nagini might have been hungry. She was trapped in a bubble. He may have done it to punish Snape for saying that his magic was the result of the Elder Wand instead of him being just great. Nagni's floating, protective bubble was an impressive piece of magic and Snape attributed to the wand and not Voldemort. So he killed him with it by trapping him inside it with no chance of escape.


  #1505  
Old July 16th, 2011, 9:13 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by Nnylarak View Post
Why didn't Voldemort kill Snape with an Avada Kedavra? It seems that killing Snape with Nagini was just a convenient way for JK Rowling to keep Snape alive long enough to pass on his memories to Harry.
Voldemort was using the Elder wand at the time. He believed it did not work properly for him because its true master was Snape. So he probably wouldn't dare using Elder wand to kill Snape with AK as he had his doubts. He rather used the snake to kill him to avoid using the wand.
Of course we know he was wrong but it just show how ignorant Voldemort was.


  #1506  
Old July 16th, 2011, 9:23 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by KisaDiggory View Post
Voldemort was using the Elder wand at the time. He believed it did not work properly for him because its true master was Snape. So he probably wouldn't dare using Elder wand to kill Snape with AK as he had his doubts. He rather used the snake to kill him to avoid using the wand.
Of course we know he was wrong but it just show how ignorant Voldemort was.
Exactly right. He had had quite enough experiences with killing curses backfiring, thank you very much. If the Elder Wand had indeed belonged to Snape, then he certainly would have been wise not to attempt a killing curse on Snape.


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  #1507  
Old July 16th, 2011, 10:47 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Exactly right. He had had quite enough experiences with killing curses backfiring, thank you very much. If the Elder Wand had indeed belonged to Snape, then he certainly would have been wise not to attempt a killing curse on Snape.
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Poor Voldemort, those killing curses don't seem to work out for him too well at times


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  #1508  
Old July 17th, 2011, 11:17 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

In the Half Blood Prince, during the fight on the top of the tower, there was a barrier set up by the Death Eaters, and it said that only those with a Dark Mark were allowed to enter the Astronomy Tower - the Carrows, Snape, Malfoy and Grayback.

But later we find out in DH that Greyback didn't have a Dark Mark.


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  #1509  
Old July 17th, 2011, 4:35 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by Runes View Post
In the Half Blood Prince, during the fight on the top of the tower, there was a barrier set up by the Death Eaters, and it said that only those with a Dark Mark were allowed to enter the Astronomy Tower - the Carrows, Snape, Malfoy and Grayback.

But later we find out in DH that Greyback didn't have a Dark Mark.
The stairs don't get blocked until after the DEs & Fenrir are already on the Tower. They are the ones who blocked the staircase when they broke free from the fighting on the ground. So Greyback didn't need to have a dark mark, as he was part of the group who blocked the stairs behind them.


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  #1510  
Old July 17th, 2011, 4:54 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by KisaDiggory View Post
Voldemort was using the Elder wand at the time. He believed it did not work properly for him because its true master was Snape. So he probably wouldn't dare using Elder wand to kill Snape with AK as he had his doubts. He rather used the snake to kill him to avoid using the wand.
Of course we know he was wrong but it just show how ignorant Voldemort was.
Well that's a very good explanation. I didn't even think about that. I just thought it was another one of those things that has to happen in a story to help bring a conclusion to the story, but that makes a lot of sense.

I have to say, though, that I don't think Voldemort was being ignorant by thinking that Snape was the master of the wand. He wasn't there on the night of DD's death and thus wasn't privy to minor details like who "defeated" (disarmed) DD, or even if he was disarmed at all.


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Old July 17th, 2011, 6:15 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by Your_Holeyness View Post
Well that's a very good explanation. I didn't even think about that. I just thought it was another one of those things that has to happen in a story to help bring a conclusion to the story, but that makes a lot of sense.

I have to say, though, that I don't think Voldemort was being ignorant by thinking that Snape was the master of the wand. He wasn't there on the night of DD's death and thus wasn't privy to minor details like who "defeated" (disarmed) DD, or even if he was disarmed at all.
Thank you...
I meant ignorant in a way that Voldemort thought that he has to KILL the previous master of the wand. Of course he thought it was Snape, all he knew was that Snape was the one to kill DD. As we know, it is not necessary to kill to gain the wand's allegiance, just to disarm. But Voldemort wouldn't have been Voldemort if he thought that way.....


  #1512  
Old July 17th, 2011, 9:36 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

Has anyone ever asked:

Why would Voldemort hide the diadem, one of his precious horcruxes, in a junk filled room? Are we supposed to believe all that junk accumulated after he hid it? Or that he didn't realize b/c of the clutter, plenty of people had used that room for hiding things before? Any help?


  #1513  
Old July 17th, 2011, 10:48 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by notquitesquib View Post
Has anyone ever asked:

Why would Voldemort hide the diadem, one of his precious horcruxes, in a junk filled room? Are we supposed to believe all that junk accumulated after he hid it? Or that he didn't realize b/c of the clutter, plenty of people had used that room for hiding things before? Any help?
I've read on here that people justify that hole by saying Voldemort was so arrogant he believed only he had ever found the Room of Requirement, even though to put the Diadem where it was he would've had to walk past row after row of OTHER PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS ROOM and stacked the Diadem on a shelf full of THIS IS A STUPID PLACE TO HIDE YOUR SOUL.


  #1514  
Old July 17th, 2011, 10:54 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by notquitesquib View Post
Has anyone ever asked:

Why would Voldemort hide the diadem, one of his precious horcruxes, in a junk filled room? Are we supposed to believe all that junk accumulated after he hid it? Or that he didn't realize b/c of the clutter, plenty of people had used that room for hiding things before? Any help?
Well, trying to find the best way to hide something is no simple science. Voldemort tried several methods in order to hide his Horcruxes.

The Room of Requirement operates on the principle that it creates exactly the Room which you need. So, Voldemort used the Room to create the perfect Room in which to hide something. I think it was a good strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebreeze View Post
I've read on here that people justify that hole by saying Voldemort was so arrogant he believed only he had ever found the Room of Requirement, even though to put the Diadem where it was he would've had to walk past row after row of OTHER PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS ROOM and stacked the Diadem on a shelf full of THIS IS A STUPID PLACE TO HIDE YOUR SOUL.
Strictly speaking, the fact that there were piles of things lying in the Room already did not at all imply that other people had been in it before, because the fundemental premise of the RoR is that it will create whatever you need. Therefore, the belief that he was the only one to know about the room was still a valid position.


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  #1515  
Old July 17th, 2011, 11:00 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

Loading the horcrux into a rocket and sending it into orbit would've been a good strategy, although admittedly less of a good book.


  #1516  
Old July 17th, 2011, 11:12 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by inthebreeze View Post
Loading the horcrux into a rocket and sending it into orbit would've been a good strategy, although admittedly less of a good book.
I think that most things which are sent into orbit attract quite a bit of attention from Muggle authorities.

You've raised an interesting question, though. I wonder what sort of leaps the magical community has ever made into outer space...


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  #1517  
Old July 17th, 2011, 11:59 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Well, trying to find the best way to hide something is no simple science. Voldemort tried several methods in order to hide his Horcruxes.

The Room of Requirement operates on the principle that it creates exactly the Room which you need. So, Voldemort used the Room to create the perfect Room in which to hide something. I think it was a good strategy.

Strictly speaking, the fact that there were piles of things lying in the Room already did not at all imply that other people had been in it before, because the fundemental premise of the RoR is that it will create whatever you need. Therefore, the belief that he was the only one to know about the room was still a valid position.
I suppose it was a 'needle in a haystack' strategy. He could well have believed the Room had created all that junk just for him. The fact that other people had presumably asked for 'a room to hide something in' and the Room came up with the same one for each of them would probably not have occurred to him, since he believed he had explored more of Hogwarts' mysteries than anyone. The fact that Harry found it thanks to Dobby, means the house elves knew about it (presumably they were the ones who stashed the vanishing cabinet there?) but Voldemort would never have expected anyone so inferior as a house elf to know the secret room, would he?

I do wonder how Draco discovered that the vanishing cabinet was in the Room though.


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  #1518  
Old July 18th, 2011, 12:23 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
I suppose it was a 'needle in a haystack' strategy. He could well have believed the Room had created all that junk just for him.
It's exactly the needle in the haystack strategy. There is always a balance between having something hidden but protected vs. protected but not hidden. With the locket, for example, he threw everything he had into setting up a magical protection for the Horcrux whereby it would be next to impossible for it to be stolen. However, it made the location rather conspicuous, as the amount of magic he used to protect it left traces which were detectable by the wily, wizened wizard which was Dumbledore. With the diadem, he put no protection, but hid it cunningly. Harry only found it through sheer chance, having encountered it in his previous school year. I think that it would have been exceedingly difficult to find it otherwise, even if Harry did know that it was located in the RoR.


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  #1519  
Old July 18th, 2011, 7:29 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think the problem would lie in being able to cast the Fidelius Charm when Voldemort and his Death Eaters already had control of the castle. It seems unlikely that a Fidelius Charm could have been performed on a location without everyone who was in that place at the time being in on the secret. For instance, even if Flitwick cast a Fidelius Charm over Hogwarts, as long as Snape and the Carrows were inside it at the time, I think they would automatically be "shown" the secret (just as Hermione simply showing Yaxley the front door of Grimmauld Place in DH revealed the secret to Yaxley). I would expect that those inside the location or those with an extensive knowledge of the location/students would have been immune to a Fidelius Charm.
I agree. I think using the Fidelius Charm at any public institution would be far too complicated and unlikely to be beneficial in the long run though. Even before the Death Eaters took control of Hogwarts, it would have been essentially impossible to protect the castle with the Fidelius Charm because of the necessity for a secret keeper as well as the sheer number of people who would have to be told the secret and the fact that each of them would become a secret keeper when the original secret keeper died. The school was over 1000 years old. Wizards had longer life spans that muggles, but they didn't live forever. Whether it was from natural causes or illness or murder, the secret keeper would eventually die - at which point every person who had been told - or shown - the secret would then become a secret keeper. Many of the Death Eaters were former students who would have been told the secret if a Fidelius Charm had been in place while they were students.

Even with the current war, it wasn't really a feasible option because there were so many people who would have to be told the secret - including numerous students whose parents were Death Eaters. Draco became a Death Eater himself in his sixth year. Anyone they chose for secret keeper would be at risk for being murdered - which could have potentially enabled any student with Death Eater connections to tell their parents or even Voldemort himself the secret. Dumbledore would be the one everyone wanted to do it - which would have meant his death at the end of HBP would enable those students with Death Eater connections to reveal the secret. I just don't see that as a viable option for a public institution where so many would have to be told the secret and the number of people who knew increasing each year with the new batch of first year students.

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I think the explanation could be the subjects of the Fidelius Charms. We have examples from two types of Fidelius Charms: one with the subject being the people, the other with the subject being a place. From the testimony by Flitwick, Sirius, and Dumbledore, the Fidelius Charm was cast on protecting the Potters - not their house in Godric's Hollow (although it could have been both, as seen by Lily's statement that James could not leave the house without the Invisibility Cloak. However, I think we can be fairly certain that the actual humans - Lily, James, and Harry - were at least one of the subjects of the Fidelius Charm because of Flitwick saying, in PoA, that Voldemort could press his face against the Potters' home window without seeing the Potters). If this is the case, it is understandable why James or Lily could not have been Secret-Keepers if they were the secret.

This is in contrast to the Fidelius Charms on Grimmauld Place, Shell Cottage, and Auntie Muriel's. In these cases, the Charms protected the place, not the people. The people were protected, of course, as long as they stayed within the boundaries of the charmed properties. However, I think this can explain why, for instance, Bill could be Secret-Keeper over Shell Cottage. Shell Cottage was a place that Bill was keeping secret; he was not the actual subject of the Fidelius Charm. If the Fidelius Charm was cast over himself, Fleur, Harry, etc., then I could understand the rut in logic. However, Bill was not his own Secret-Keeper: he was Secret-Keeper of the property.
That's what I question actually. We don't actually know what the subject of those other charms was - or how the secret was phrased. For Grimmauld Place, it was that the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix was located there. That was more about protecting the Order than the house itself - I would consider the Order of the Phoenix the subject of that charm so that would be people rather than a place. The house was hidden in order to protect the people seeking refuge inside of it.

That's exactly what was done for the Potters as well as the Weasley family in DH. The goal was the same - to protect the people seeking refuge in those locations. I think the key would be in how the secret was phrased. It may have been something like "The Potters are hiding at [house #] [street name], Godric's Hollow". But it could also have been phrased similar to the secret for Grimmauld Place - i.e. "The house owned by the Potter family may be found at [house #] [street name], Godric's Hollow." The Order may have had some standard phrase to define a house or building as a safe house for members of the Order to seek refuge that would enable them to quickly cast the charm.

Voldemort revealed that the Potter's home would have been invisible to him if Pettigrew had not revealed the secret to him in the memory Harry saw from that night.

DH, chp 17, pg 343And along a new and darker street he moved, and now his destination was in sight at last, the Fidelius Charm broken, though they did not know it yet. . . .


Since it was being able to see the house that allowed Voldemort to be sure the Fidelius Charm wouldn't stop him, the charm must have been on the house itself - rendering it invisible to protect the people inside just as Grimmauld Place was rendered invisible to protect members of the Order using it for headquarters, IMO.

I think that it is more plausible that ownership was a factor. Aunt Muriel wasn't made secret keeper for the house she owned - Arthur was. Bill and Fleur had just gotten married so it's possible they did not own Shell Cottage. They could have been renting the house or making payments - in which case, the house would legally be the property of whoever they were making payments to until they paid it off.

Or it could just be an editing error and it was supposed to be Bill who was secret keeper for Aunt Muriel's house and Arthur was supposed to be secret keeper for Shell Cottage.

Quote:
I agree with this. We simply do not know enough about the process of casting the Fidelius Charm to understand what complications may have been involved for the trio. However, given that they were all only ~17 at the time and had not even taken their N.E.W.T.s, I think the Fidelius Charm may have been too advanced for them. I would not be surprised if Hermione knew the theory, but I think she would have been to hesitant to place any reliance in it, as she would never have practiced it before (just as she was afraid of performing the charms that would completely heal Ron's Splinching wound).
I agree. Flitwick describes the Fidelius Charm as being very complex and the nature of the charm could require a third party to act as a bonder - or something along those lines - to seal the agreement with the secret keeper. Hermione was very intelligent and picked up spells quickly, but she was still technically a student and there were still a lot of things she needed to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Well, trying to find the best way to hide something is no simple science. Voldemort tried several methods in order to hide his Horcruxes.

The Room of Requirement operates on the principle that it creates exactly the Room which you need. So, Voldemort used the Room to create the perfect Room in which to hide something. I think it was a good strategy.



Strictly speaking, the fact that there were piles of things lying in the Room already did not at all imply that other people had been in it before, because the fundemental premise of the RoR is that it will create whatever you need. Therefore, the belief that he was the only one to know about the room was still a valid position.
That is a very good point. I hadn't considered that possibility. I thought it was possible that the fact that everything in there was so old would lead him to conclude that no one had used the room in years. When Harry found it, the newest thing in there was the Vanishing Cabinet - which would not have been there when Voldemort used it.

However, Voldemort didn't seem to know the true magic of the room - in that it could become different types of rooms based on what a person needed. He seems to only know the one incarnation of that room as a hiding place. It makes sense that he would assume the old junk filling the room was created magically because it would make the diadem more difficult to find.

Likewise, it seems likely that Riddle would have taken the time to observe that corridor carefully for a while to be sure nobody else went into the hidden room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
I do wonder how Draco discovered that the vanishing cabinet was in the Room though.
It's possible he learned that from Montague as well as figuring out there was another cabinet. Montague was in the hospital wing for a while before his mother came to get him. We know from Harry's experiences in the hospital wing that there were times when important things were discussed so patients could hear about it. I could see the teachers discussing the need to have the vanishing cabinet removed because of what happened to Montague


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  #1520  
Old July 18th, 2011, 7:39 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
However, Voldemort didn't seem to know the true magic of the room - in that it could become different types of rooms based on what a person needed. He seems to only know the one incarnation of that room as a hiding place. It makes sense that he would assume the old junk filling the room was created magically because it would make the diadem more difficult to find.
I don't know about this. I think that it is a bit of an assumption to make. I think it would make sense for him to have known that it was the ideal hiding place because that was what he had asked for- so I think he would in fact have been more inclined if he did know the magic of the room. All in all, though, it is hard to say. Perhaps I am overlooking a quote.


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