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  #41  
Old November 17th, 2003, 2:00 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
I love the smiley! Thanks. We need to be cheered up. I don't think there's a problem here with topics, but it's probably useful to have a train of thought to follow.

Anyone think Fudge will be voted out? I can't see him leading an army to battle the forces of evil.
I like it too! It's funny!

About Fudge - I've said it before and I'm standing by what I said - if there isn't some recall movement or public outcry about Fudge and his actions, I may shut my book and never read Potter again. I want to see trials, too, and sentences handed out for the Death Eaters Dumbledore and Order captured... especially for Kid Slick. I want Fudge ousted from office or forced to resign and Umbridge sent to Azkaban for ordering the Dementors to attack Harry and Dudley. That's abuse of office, attempted murder, conspiracy to murder, AND blatant violation of the International Statute of Secrecy - the same charge she and Fudge tried to frame Harry with!

Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
I'm hoping that if time travel is part of the story, it's no more complicated than a time turner, magical device kind of thing. If the books get into relativity and physics it's going to damage the sense of magic in the tale. So while I think she might do something with time, I hope it doesn't get complicated.
I'm with you here! I can barely keep track of the timeline presented already and I don't relish being confused even further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
I still can't decide what I think about a demon possessing all the dark lords. Is there some item, a book, a spell, a lever in the chamber of secrets that releases the demon? Hmmmm.....
I can't either. I wonder if maybe the demon isn't somehow associated with old Sal himself - as in could he actually BE the demon? I really think that dude is still around in some form or fashion. Sure, Harry killed the basilisk, but we've already seen how the possessing person can leave a body and be perfectly okay after the fact. Voldemort did it with Quirrell - and Harry, for the matter.


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  #42  
Old November 17th, 2003, 11:21 am
phoenixsong  Undisclosed.gif phoenixsong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang
And while I do not believe that the storyline of the book of Revelations is similar to HP, still there are so many of the same symbols. (No socks, though.)
Quote:
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her socked feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
(Hope this doesn't offend anyone, whizbang's comment just made me laugh!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
I think Doggy was it who asked a very important question: If Slytherin and Voldemort were possessed by the same entity - where the heck was this entity hiding for thousand years? Was it sleeping somewhere - like having some hibernation and overslept? Or is it some Monster that comes alive every thousand years - then chooses its victim at random and COINCIDENTIALY picks two from the same family ....
But surely the history of the last 1000 years isn't so bereft of terrible wizards that we couldn't suspect them of being possessed, too? We variously hear Voldemort described as "the darkest wizard for 100 years" and "the darkest wizard of all times". If it is the latter, than I agree that the possession theory is unlikely. But if the former, then isn't it possible that all the worst dictators and butchers of history could have been possessed by "the Dark Lord"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
Why between "right and easy" and not "right and wrong"? Is to choose the right thing never easy???? Or do I have to read that more in a sense of: you have a lot of thinking to do to choose the right thing ... not thinking over things is easy but leads in the wrong direction?
For me, this immediately brings to mind Pettigrew, who didn't seem to really think through the vast consequences of his decision to betray the Potters. He seems to have thought that it was simply a choice between their lives and his. He didn't even stop to think about the larger context of fighting the good fight against the "the most evil wizard who has ever existed." Sometimes it can be very difficult to know exactly what is right, but what is [/i]wrong[/i] is usually a bit clearer.


  #43  
Old November 17th, 2003, 11:58 am
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I completely agree to that train of thought - I believe I've said so before - but I want to get rid off two things, so that I don't have to keep them in mind

Believe it or not - they are prophecy related

It is when Firenze is giving his first divination lesson:

Quote:
He was nothing like any human teacher had ever had. His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaurs' knowlege, was fool proof.
So- how foolproof is a prophecy???

We were once discussing the point if the "vanquishing" thats mentioned in the prophecy is already done. Have we come to an end there?

Anyway, Dumbledore is telling us:

Quote:
Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters....

And there is another thing that may hint to us that "to die at the hand of each other" does not mean Harry has to kill Voldemort in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbledore
Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit
thats what he's saying to Tom during the fight in the MOM. Dumbledore always uses his words very well considerd... so merely taking Voldemorts life would not satisfy him .... does he tell us that taking the life away is not the clue to the "Riddle"???

I agree completely on behalf of Fudge and timetravel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk


Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
I still can't decide what I think about a demon possessing all the dark lords. Is there some item, a book, a spell, a lever in the chamber of secrets that releases the demon? Hmmmm.....

I can't either. I wonder if maybe the demon isn't somehow associated with old Sal himself - as in could he actually BE the demon? I really think that dude is still around in some form or fashion. Sure, Harry killed the basilisk, but we've already seen how the possessing person can leave a body and be perfectly okay after the fact. Voldemort did it with Quirrell - and Harry, for the matter.
Let my try to tell you all what I am thinking about it - it's complicated for me - so you know its going to be longwinded

"Working" with the possibility that Grindelwald is Toms grandfather has certainly some advantages but I think it has some great disadvantage too.

If Tom is possessed in some way by some evil Entity AND Grindelwald is his grandfather this could possibly mean two things:

Grindelwald - as we know - was a dark wirzard that needed defeating. And since Dumbledore is "particular famous" for this defeat, I am inclined to believe that Grindelwald was not only some "second-rate-wanna-be-bad-guy" but a real threat to the wizarding world.

The story of Harry defeating Tom could be some "replay" of Dumbledore/Grindelwald right down to the means how to defeat Tom/Voldemort

If Tom is possessed - Grindelwald would have to have been too. That could mean Tom had the help of his grandfather (by means of hints to the chamber, he told him he is a Slytherin, may have advised him in how to learn the unforgivables..) but Tom could not be possessed at the tíme he found and opened the chamber because Grindelwald was still alive then. And I don't suppose some Entity would possesses two people at the same time.

This doesn't really hurt much, because Tom could have de facto "run into the "remainings" of Grindelwald". Grindelwald was defeated in Toms last year at Hogwarts. After that Tom vanished and travelled long and far .... so the possibility is still there. He could even have looked for the remainings of Grindelwald and "adopted" them willingly.

The problem - for me - is: that would be two "dark lords" within 100 years that have been possessed by an evil Entity and they would be both from one family!!!

That would be a "problem" to me, because I would think it highly unlikely when it just was some Entity.

It wouldn't be such a problem to me if the Entity is indeed connected to Slytherin.

But if this Entity is connected to Slytherin there is just another point that drives me mad: It would somehow "erase" the possibility for Tom to really have choises!!!

So far we would only know about 4 members of the Slytherin family Slytherin himself, Grindelwald, Toms mother and Tom. That would mean 3 out of 4 have gone bad :frown: :frown:

And there is one major thing that is not at all looked at, in that above mentioned: The real heir of Slytherin - thing.

Tom is the real heir of Slytherin. Grindelwald could not have opended the chamber, even if was at Hogwarts some time, because we are told that Tom and Harry had been the only parselmouths around probably since Slytherin himself. If Grindelwald would have been a paselmouth too, I am sure Dumbledore would have know that.

But would it be necessary for Grindelwald to be a parselmouth too?

I think not, maybe he wasn't as "gifted" as Tom. Maybe he never had the talents to be a real "dark lord" as Tom was - he may have tried to do so - but something was missing.... Maybe he was a parselmouth but he never was at Hogwarts?

Slytherin left the school in anger. Would he send his kids, and grandkids to a school which he left in anger? Well he must have - one thinks - why else would he seal a chamber for his "real heir"? What would be the point of that if he was to send the kids to some other school?

But then again - he may have left Hogwarts and indeed founded Durmstrang and forgot about Hogwarts for a while. And maybe Grindelwald was at Durmstrang.

And maybe Tom's mother - being the black sheep of the family - decided to live in England - far away from possible influence from the family and Tom came to Hogwarts sort of coincidently?

Now what is the outcome of all this rambling supposed to be?? Frankly - I don't know. I'd like to "chain" Tom and Grindelwald together plus fitting the "possessed theory" in it, simply because I would like to keep timetravel out of it....

But then again: Time and space matter in magic. At least thats what Snape tells us, and he should know.



Sabine



Last edited by Sabine; November 17th, 2003 at 12:04 pm.
  #44  
Old November 17th, 2003, 12:28 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixsong
But surely the history of the last 1000 years isn't so bereft of terrible wizards that we couldn't suspect them of being possessed, too? We variously hear Voldemort described as "the darkest wizard for 100 years" and "the darkest wizard of all times". If it is the latter, than I agree that the possession theory is unlikely. But if the former, then isn't it possible that all the worst dictators and butchers of history could have been possessed by "the Dark Lord"?
But doesn't this whole being-possessed-business interfere with ones choices??? That is indeed the greatest flaw that I see in it! Being possessed makes the bad one's rather a victim - taking away the blame of them? To me it highla interfers with choices - even if i like the theory because I think it would be "easier" to get rid of that Entity than to see Harry actually killing someone - even if it is Voldemort!

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixsong
For me, this immediately brings to mind Pettigrew, who didn't seem to really think through the vast consequences of his decision to betray the Potters. He seems to have thought that it was simply a choice between their lives and his. He didn't even stop to think about the larger context of fighting the good fight against the "the most evil wizard who has ever existed." Sometimes it can be very difficult to know exactly what is right, but what is [/i]wrong[/i] is usually a bit clearer.
As for Peter: Having read and reread the scene in the pensieve, it seems to me more and more curious that they choose Peter in the first place! The way they treated Peter was horrible. He was supposed to be their freind! I somehow think James and Sirius allowed Peter to be in that group just to have someone to pick on. They haven't been real friends to Peter at all, how could Sirius be so ..... I can't think of a word ... but how could Sirius possibly anticipate that Peter should have rather allowed to be killed? For them?? The way they treated him? Fat chance. There is another phrase in german... meaning that you always get back from people how you treat them. It's not that I think Peter did the right thing - no way - its just - I can understand him.

For me it brings to mind the history of Hogwarts. The founders stubbornly stuck to their biases - they couldn't work out how to compromise. They took the easy way out - divided the school into 4 houses so that every founder could have it his/her way.

Sometimes I'm asking me if that is somehow the root to all this meddle.

Sabine


  #45  
Old November 17th, 2003, 2:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
But doesn't this whole being-possessed-business interfere with ones choices??? That is indeed the greatest flaw that I see in it! Being possessed makes the bad one's rather a victim - taking away the blame of them? To me it highla interfers with choices - even if i like the theory because I think it would be "easier" to get rid of that Entity than to see Harry actually killing someone - even if it is Voldemort!
The choice would still be inherent if they went looking for the demon, though, as I expect happened. It's more likely there isn't a demon, per se, but more that they transformed themselves into pure evil via dark means and paths. It's possible - maybe probable.

Quote:
As for Peter: Having read and reread the scene in the pensieve, it seems to me more and more curious that they choose Peter in the first place! The way they treated Peter was horrible. He was supposed to be their freind! I somehow think James and Sirius allowed Peter to be in that group just to have someone to pick on. They haven't been real friends to Peter at all, how could Sirius be so ..... I can't think of a word ... but how could Sirius possibly anticipate that Peter should have rather allowed to be killed? For them?? The way they treated him? Fat chance. There is another phrase in german... meaning that you always get back from people how you treat them. It's not that I think Peter did the right thing - no way - its just - I can understand him.
I didn't see it that way, Sabine. I thought the four Marauders were tight buds, so to speak, including Peter. He was a tag-along, but they actually befriended him and not just tolerated him. They helped him become an animagus. There always seems to be one oddball in any clique. My kids tease me to no end. It's funny and I often inadvertently make myself an easy target. It's all in fun - no offense intended and none taken.

Quote:
For me it brings to mind the history of Hogwarts. The founders stubbornly stuck to their biases - they couldn't work out how to compromise. They took the easy way out - divided the school into 4 houses so that every founder could have it his/her way.

Sometimes I'm asking me if that is somehow the root to all this meddle.

Sabine
See? I don't agree with this take either. I think Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw were able to compromise and work out issues peacefully, but Slytherin was a wild card who wanted his way or no way. I've always been of the opinion Helga and Rowena were no match for Slytherin in a debate and, as usually happens, the final argument came down to the two strongest personalities... Gryffindor and Slytherin, but with Gryffindor representing the viewpoints of the two witches. At least that's how I see it. Slytherin was a renegade - the others were team players.


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~ President Bill Clinton ~
August 28, 2013
50th Anniversary of "I Have a Dream"


All opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of any political or government body.
  #46  
Old November 17th, 2003, 2:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixsong
We variously hear Voldemort described as "the darkest wizard for 100 years" and "the darkest wizard of all times".
Phoenixsong, I often see the "darkest wizard of all times" mentioned, but I don't know where it is. I remember one about 100 years, and I remember that Tom Riddle wanted to be the greatest sorcerer in the world. Purplehawk will know.
Socked feet.
Quote:
He was nothing like any human teacher had ever had. His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaurs' knowlege, was fool proof.
The first thing I had to learn when I began to study astrology, was that "nothing supercedes the will of man." I forgot who said it, but it was my excuse for avoiding all that math for many years. Could there be a connection? I think Sinistra will recognise the quote if I ask her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabine
And there is another thing that may hint to us that "to die at the hand of each other" does not mean Harry has to kill Voldemort in the end.
This is a toughie. I'm gradually becoming more convinced that "either must die at the hand of the other" happened in Godric's Hollow on Oct 31, 1981. I wonder if that whole phrase, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives," all refers to the events of that Halloween night that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and was ripped from his body instead.

Gotta run. Be back soon.


  #47  
Old November 17th, 2003, 3:16 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
Phoenixsong, I often see the "darkest wizard of all times" mentioned, but I don't know where it is. I remember one about 100 years, and I remember that Tom Riddle wanted to be the greatest sorcerer in the world. Purplehawk will know.
It's in PoA, Whiz, but not quite as referenced above. Sirius spoke it in the Shrieking Shack:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius, PoA
"What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?"...
Riddle referred to Voldemort (his later self) as "the greatest sorcerer in the world." And Voldemort, in GoF, named himself "mightier than any wizard living."

Then, in the first chapter of CoS, there is this passage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoS, p.4 AmEd.
At the age of one year old, Harry had somehow survived a curse from the greatest Dark sorcerer of all time, Lord Voldemort, whose name most witches and wizards still feared to speak...
I hope that's enough!

Quote:
This is a toughie. I'm gradually becoming more convinced that "either must die at the hand of the other" happened in Godric's Hollow on Oct 31, 1981. I wonder if that whole phrase, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives," all refers to the events of that Halloween night that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and was ripped from his body instead.

Gotta run. Be back soon.
Whiz, if this is true - and I'm not saying it isn't - wouldn't the series have been over before it started? What's left for Harry to accomplish?


__________________



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~ President Bill Clinton ~
August 28, 2013
50th Anniversary of "I Have a Dream"


All opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of any political or government body.
  #48  
Old November 17th, 2003, 3:38 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk
I didn't see it that way, Sabine. I thought the four Marauders were tight buds, so to speak, including Peter. He was a tag-along, but they actually befriended him and not just tolerated him. They helped him become an animagus. There always seems to be one oddball in any clique. My kids tease me to no end. It's funny and I often inadvertently make myself an easy target. It's all in fun - no offense intended and none taken.
There is a lot of teasing going on in my family too. So I know what you mean. And there's no problem if its sort of balanced and really fun for everyone.

But if you take a closer look at the relationship to Peter you can see that that was not the case. Just remember how they talked about Peter back in PoA. They didn't treat Peter as equal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk
See? I don't agree with this take either. I think Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw were able to compromise and work out issues peacefully, but Slytherin was a wild card who wanted his way or no way. I've always been of the opinion Helga and Rowena were no match for Slytherin in a debate and, as usually happens, the final argument came down to the two strongest personalities... Gryffindor and Slytherin, but with Gryffindor representing the viewpoints of the two witches. At least that's how I see it. Slytherin was a renegade - the others were team players.
I think ist highly possible that I am wrong - no question about that. But they were going to found a school! So the question that should have bothered tem most should not have been "How can we 4 best go along?" but "What would be for the best benefit for the students?"

And in my eyes dividing them, telling them: you are smarter that the others, you are braver than the others a.s.o. is not for the benefit of the students. Yeah sure - its the choices that count not what house you are sorted in. But instead of telling the kids that the choices matter and let them make those choices - they go on and sort of "pre-condemn" them.

I would think the average school-kid of 11 years is easily affected by that. "I don't have to try to be brave - I'm in Hufflepuff, you know!" I know that is exaggrated but you certainly get the drift.

And it doesn't help to say: Harry did choose, so they could have done too. Harry is by no means some average student!

Its all about choices - but kids don't know that, they have to learn that. And adults and teachers are supposed to help them.

Oh and by the way - we are really good at "agree-ing to disagree"

Sabine


  #49  
Old November 17th, 2003, 4:24 pm
phoenixsong  Undisclosed.gif phoenixsong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
But doesn't this whole being-possessed-business interfere with ones choices??? That is indeed the greatest flaw that I see in it! Being possessed makes the bad one's rather a victim - taking away the blame of them? To me it highla interfers with choices - even if i like the theory because I think it would be "easier" to get rid of that Entity than to see Harry actually killing someone - even if it is Voldemort!
Well, although I am not even really a supporter of the possessing demon alive for 1000 years theory, for the sake of argument, I don't think it really takes away the importance of choices. Firstly, I think that someone like Grindelwald or Riddle would invite the demon to possess them. Secondly, if the first possibility is not true, then we could get a scenario where the underlying, possessed person actually chooses to expel the demon. Or, as purplehawk said:
Quote:
The choice would still be inherent if they went looking for the demon, though, as I expect happened. It's more likely there isn't a demon, per se, but more that they transformed themselves into pure evil via dark means and paths. It's possible - maybe probable.
Sabine: it seems to me that the division of the four houses does not mean that an individual in one house is bereft of the qualities of the other three, but that his or her predominant trait, the one that underlies most of the choices he or she makes, is the basis for his or her placement in a particular house. Everybody knows that Hermione is as smart as any Ravenclaw, but I suspect that Ravenclaws are likely to be more scholastic, or academic, whereas Hermione's learning is almost subservient to her unflinching commitment to boldly use it.

It is possible that such a division could be detrimental to the students' education, but there could be positive aspects to being in an environment that nurtures your best qualities: kind of like we have special science and math skills for kids who are gifted in those areas. You could say that it is bad for them to miss out on a more well-rounded education, or bad for the other kids to miss out on the chance to be around their more-gifted peers, but surely there are real advantages for the kids who get to be around others who understand where they're coming from.


  #50  
Old November 17th, 2003, 4:59 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixsong
Sabine: it seems to me that the division of the four houses does not mean that an individual in one house is bereft of the qualities of the other three, but that his or her predominant trait, the one that underlies most of the choices he or she makes, is the basis for his or her placement in a particular house. Everybody knows that Hermione is as smart as any Ravenclaw, but I suspect that Ravenclaws are likely to be more scholastic, or academic, whereas Hermione's learning is almost subservient to her unflinching commitment to boldly use it.
Thats exactly what I think too: the hat looks for the overbalanced skills or talents or something like that.

We seem to know, but the kids don't! "If the hat puts me in Slytherin I'd rather go home again!" Most of them think the Hufflepuffs are - now what was that word that they were using? ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixsong
It is possible that such a division could be detrimental to the students' education, but there could be positive aspects to being in an environment that nurtures your best qualities: kind of like we have special science and math skills for kids who are gifted in those areas. You could say that it is bad for them to miss out on a more well-rounded education, or bad for the other kids to miss out on the chance to be around their more-gifted peers, but surely there are real advantages for the kids who get to be around others who understand where they're coming from.
Probably is dividing them something thats ... now what was that .... curse and blessing - but I'm not so shure that the disadvantages do not overrule.

Sabine


  #51  
Old November 17th, 2003, 5:42 pm
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Purplehawk, Thanks for the references. I knew you'd have them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk
Whiz, if this is true - and I'm not saying it isn't - wouldn't the series have been over before it started? What's left for Harry to accomplish?
He must vanquish the dark lord. This is one reason to consider the "possession" theory seriously.
Even if we prove that when Riddle's body "died" that part of the prophesy was fulfilled, his consciousness for whatever reason, is still functioning and must be dealt with.

Then there's the "deliberate error" in book 2 about Voldemort being the last ancestor of Slytherin. I've wondered if Slytherin stumbled on something and brought down a curse on himself and his descendants: a demon, a group of demons, ancestral demons? Slytherin must have had descendants straight through down to Tom Riddle, but we get the impression that only Tom has ever opened the CoS. And Dumbledore speculates that along with Slytherin, Tom and Harry are probably the only two parseltongues to ever come to Hogwarts. Perhaps none of Sal's earlier descendants had enough seething resentment or native talent to spend the five years doing the research and study to succeed in opening the CoS. Is it clear in the books whether Tom was born a parseltongue, or did he learn it in his studies? Hmmmm..... Never thought of that before.

I'm wondering if the choices thing is being misunderstood in some way. I posted the following in the "power, and a future" thread.

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread....4&page=1&pp=30

Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
in CoS, when Harry says he asked the Sorting Hat to put him in Gryffindor, Dumbledore tells him:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Cos, pg333, Am ed
"Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Choices reflect the intention of the individual. And the intention guides the will. So maybe the topic can be salvaged. The topic is the powers that Voldemort transferred to Harry and how their different intentions worked to utilize these powers, which in themselves are neither good nor evil. Voldemort intends to work evil and this is reflected in the choices he makes. Harry's intentions are to do good and so his intentions reverse the evil plots of Lord Voldemort and foil him in each book. So as Dumbledore says, the choices show what they truly are. Not their abilities, because while Harry is arguably more powerful, he doesn't yet have the all the knowledge or experience that Voldemort has at his disposal.
Quote:
But the topic here is the powers transferred to Harry by Voldemort in his Oct 31 1981, attempt to kill the infant Harry with a death curse that didn't do what it was supposed to do, and how that repelled curse gave Harry powers and a future to foil the Dark Lord's plots by using his own weapons against him.
In all fairness, there are lots of holes in the story that JKR hasn't filled in, yet and we can only wait for her to relate to us the histories of all the characters. I'm hoping the next book will be out before Purplehawk is a grandmother again. But............................


  #52  
Old November 17th, 2003, 6:14 pm
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I hereby solemnly swear I will purchase a full set of Harry Potter books for my new grandchild's birth day, if JK will just cooperate and get Book Six finished by then!

Sabine, I found this passage in PoA, which might shed a little light on the Pettigrew connection with the other three Marauders:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoA, The Marauder's Map
"Pettigrew... that fat little boy who was always tagging around after them at Hogwarts?" said Madam Rosmerta.

"Hero-worshipped Black and Potter," said Professor McGonagall. "Never quite in their league, talent-wise. I was often rather sharp with him... Stupid boy... foolish boy... he was always hopeless at dueling..."
It would appear Pettigrew has had trouble fitting in on all counts. He apparently attached himself to James, Sirius, and Remus as a school boy and young adult. He later attached himself to Voldemort. He just seems like one of those people who enjoys the reflected glory of others and yet has a treacherous streak that has flared lethally once and may yet again.


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  #53  
Old November 17th, 2003, 6:37 pm
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The prophecy is already fullfilled - I was on that train too, I remember, why did I leave it ... I should check my posts... there was something......

Anyway - so lets jump on that train again...

*snitchnicking the prophecy out of whizbang's sigy*

Quote:
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... check
born to those who have thrice defied him, check
born as the seventh month dies ... check
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, check
but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... obviously
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.
So the red line is the one what its all about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
He must vanquish the dark lord. This is one reason to consider the "possession" theory seriously.
Even if we prove that when Riddle's body "died" that part of the prophesy was fulfilled, his consciousness for whatever reason, is still functioning and must be dealt with.
So Dumbledore tells us that the Dark Lord was vanquished (hours before). Voldemort died - well only the body died - but he died . If we would assume the prophecy is fullfilled then that would put Harry out of the play!!!! (Memory seems to dawn on me - I think I know again why I once decided no to go on with that :frown: ) The prophecy would be done and over with and we could wait for a new prophecy to pop up. "To die at the hand of each other" would have refered to the events at Godrics Hollow. IF we assume Harry has to deal with the left-overs of Voldemort than the prophecy is not fullfilled yet.

I skipped the thought that the prophecy was fullfilled because Dumbledore doesn't seem to think so! Dumbledore knows the prophecy for 15 years. I'm sure he turned it upside down not just one time. HE knows so much more than we do and still, when Harry asks him: "so does that mean that ... that one of us has got to kill the other one ... in the end?"

He says: "Yes" not "I'm afraid, yes" not "Yes, I believe so" - Just a plain "Yes" with no way out of it :frown: :frown:


Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
Then there's the "deliberate error" in book 2 about Voldemort being the last ancestor of Slytherin. I've wondered if Slytherin stumbled on something and brought down a curse on himself and his descendants: a demon, a group of demons, ancestral demons? Slytherin must have had descendants straight through down to Tom Riddle, but we get the impression that only Tom has ever opened the CoS.
Infact we never hear of any other family of Slytherin except for Tom and his mother... everytime I read or write this goose-bumps start to crawl up on my back and my mind is whispering "tiiiiiiiiimetraaaavell" But this surely must be overreacting - we don't know about the Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff - family - but thats not half as "frightening"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
And Dumbledore speculates that along with Slytherin, Tom and Harry are probably the only two parseltongues to ever come to Hogwarts. Perhaps none of Sal's earlier descendants had enough seething resentment or native talent to spend the five years doing the research and study to succeed in opening the CoS. Is it clear in the books whether Tom was born a parseltongue, or did he learn it in his studies? Hmmmm..... Never thought of that before.
Hm I'm not so sure about parseltongue ... I think you can't learn it ... Ron says something about it, but I can't remember exactly what... maybe purplehawk knows.

Sabine


  #54  
Old November 17th, 2003, 6:41 pm
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Hi guys!

I just wanted to let you know I got a response from Fuchsia about the reason the Prophesy was closed.

Apparently it was because we were using too many inside references and delving from the topic at hand to the point where newbies would be intimidated if they tried to post.

FYI Our Hogsmeade access could be revoked (or not given) if the Mods deem that we're doing this too much.

Luckily we already have this thread (thanks whiz ) so we should be okay.

The same thing is true with the AASS thread so I;m going to post this in the Sevage thread too.


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  #55  
Old November 17th, 2003, 6:41 pm
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Hope it's not too late to chime in with my list of "Central Mystery" items:

1. The Prophecy - What it actually means, the hidden truth twisted in through the careful wording.
2. What exactly happened at the Potter's the night Harry's parents were killed.
3. Choices
4. Hermione hasn't let go of SPEW, there's a reason
5. Lily's eyes
6. Harry's ancestors
7. The Veil
8. Dumbledore's "Dark Lord" fighting prior to Tom/Voldemort, and how was Grindelwald defeated.
{Dang you're right, this could go on and on and on...}


  #56  
Old November 17th, 2003, 6:57 pm
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Sindatur, nice you've dropped in

We should go and put all those lists in one post and then try to work on them point by point ...or something along the line - because there are really good points on that list, maybe our brains would be thankful if we gave them the chance to ponder on some minor problems for a change

Thanks for the information Jessica.

I can see where the problem is - and it is by no means one that can easily be solved ... three months from now there will newer newbies (no Jessica you don't need to correct that, I know its not good ) and those who are newbies today will then be equaly "bored" to go over the "old stuff" again and agein....

Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow devote one forum for "advanced discussions" or something along that line.

Sabine


  #57  
Old November 17th, 2003, 7:00 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
Dumbledore knows the prophecy for 15 years. I'm sure he turned it upside down not just one time. HE knows so much more than we do and still, when Harry asks him: "so does that mean that ... that one of us has got to kill the other one ... in the end?"

He says: "Yes" not "I'm afraid, yes" not "Yes, I believe so" - Just a plain "Yes" with no way out of it :frown: :frown:
Yep, that's what he said. "Yes." Plainly and simply. And that's the reason I'm thinking we haven't gotten there yet, wherever "there" is. I don't want to talk time, either. I get so confused! I once looked at that Oruboris thread (or whatever it's called) and decided not to ever look at it again. Too far "out there" for me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
Hm I'm not so sure about parseltongue ... I think you can't learn it ... Ron says something about it, but I can't remember exactly what... maybe purplehawk knows.

Sabine
Here are the applicable quotes on parseltongue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoS, p.196 AmEd.
"So?" said Harry. "I bet loads of people here can do it."

"Oh, no they can't," said Ron. "It's not a very common gift. Harry, this is bad."

...

Ron shook his head. Both he and Hermione were looking as though someone had died...

"It matters," said Hermione, speaking at last in a hushed voice, "because being able to talk to snakes was what Salazar Slytherin was famous for. That's why the symbol of Slytherin House is a serpent."

"Exactly," said Ron. "And now the whole school's going to think you're his great-great-great-great-grandson or something - "

"But I'm not," said Harry with a panic he couldn't quite explain.

"You'll find that hard to prove," said Hermione. "He lived about a thousand years ago; for all we know, you could be."
Riddle and Dumbledore later added these last two quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Riddle, p.317 CoS
"... Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself... "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbledore, p.332-333 CoS
"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure... "


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50th Anniversary of "I Have a Dream"


All opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of any political or government body.
  #58  
Old November 17th, 2003, 7:06 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessicacarstens
Hi guys!

I just wanted to let you know I got a response from Fuchsia about the reason the Prophesy was closed.

Apparently it was because we were using too many inside references and delving from the topic at hand to the point where newbies would be intimidated if they tried to post.

FYI Our Hogsmeade access could be revoked (or not given) if the Mods deem that we're doing this too much.

Luckily we already have this thread (thanks whiz ) so we should be okay.

The same thing is true with the AASS thread so I;m going to post this in the Sevage thread too.
Newbies wouldn't be intimidate if they read back a page or two. the alternative is the Mark Evans thread. Each page is identical to the one before because no one ever reads anyone else's posts, or at least they didn't last time I was there. It doesn't seem logical to open to the last page of a thread, without even having read the opening post as is often the case, and start talking about something out of the clear blue. In normal company, it would be considered rude to interrupt like this.
But we've never been off putting to newbies and we're willing to allow anyone into the conversation. We're always picking up new people.

I think some thought may be given not only to the comfort of newbies, but to consideration of those already in the middle of a discussion. It should be a two way street.
____________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabine
Sindatur, nice you've dropped in

We should go and put all those lists in one post and then try to work on them point by point ...or something along the line - because there are really good points on that list, maybe our brains would be thankful if we gave them the chance to ponder on some minor problems for a change

Sabine
That's what got us here in the first place. We can't seperate the topics very effectively. Oh well. We're only human.
Quote:
Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow devote one forum for "advanced discussions" or something along that line.
Maybe that's the solution. As discussions advance and become complex, zap them into a different forum and start the topic again in the regular forum for newbies.

As for the prophesy, it seems to me that either one has died at the hand of the other, Tom Riddle at the hand of Harry, or Harry has vanquished the dark lord. I prefer the first, but which ever it is, the other is yet to be accomplished. Dumbledore thinks it's the vanquished part and one must yet kill the other. But sometimes, Dumbledore is speculating. I won't argue with him, though. I prefer the other way around, but either way, the job is not finished yet.



Last edited by whizbang121; November 17th, 2003 at 7:16 pm.
  #59  
Old November 17th, 2003, 7:14 pm
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Actually I would have said "newer newbies" too. I think it only sounds wrong.

I agree that it's kind of limiting to break things up into smaller subtopics when you're trying to delve into all of the minutia that contribute to the central mystery.

But we have this thread so it's all good.


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  #60  
Old November 17th, 2003, 7:31 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
Newbies wouldn't be intimidate if they read back a page or two. the alternative is the Mark Evans thread. Each page is identical to the one before because no one ever reads anyone else's posts, or at least they didn't last time I was there. It doesn't seem logical to open to the last page of a thread, without even having read the opening post as is often the case, and start talking about something out of the clear blue. In normal company, it would be considered rude to interrupt like this.
But we've never been off putting to newbies and we're willing to allow anyone into the conversation. We're always picking up new people.

I think some thought may be given not only to the comfort of newbies, but to consideration of those already in the middle of a discussion. It should be a two way street.
I think you are right there whizbang ... I still can remember ... I sat there for days and read every single post from the first prophecy thread and then ... having finally read the last post and was getting ready for my first post ever in those forums THEY HAD CLOSED DOWN THE THREAD!!!!!! I was furious - but then I found the new one


Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow devote one forum for "advanced discussions" or something along that line.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe that's the solution. As discussions advance and become complex, zap them into a different forum and start the topic again in the regular forum for newbies.
If you think this is a good idea just go along and suggest it to some of the mods. I think you - or some of you, know them much better than I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whizbang121
As for the prophesy, it seems to me that either one has died at the hand of the other, Tom Riddle at the hand of Harry, or Harry has vanquished the dark lord. I prefer the first, but which ever it is, the other is yet to be accomplished. Dumbledore thinks it's the vanquished part and one must yet kill the other. But sometimes, Dumbledore is speculating. I won't argue with him, though. I prefer the other way around, but either way, the job is not finished yet.
whizbang I think you are missing something - or I am reading it wrong --- just so that everyone can try to follow my argument I'm going to snitch the porphecy again:

Quote:
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.
Nowhere in the prophecy is a piece that says you have to vanquish the dark lord AND kill him.

True - it says The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches but this is only telling us that he has the power to do so. There is only one line that says Harry has to kill him and that is: and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. Can you see what I mean?

*****************

Thanks for all the quotes purplehawk

It doesn't clearly solve the matter, but it doesn't look like one could learn parseltongue?

Jassica it sounds just awful newer newbies

Sabine



Last edited by Sabine; November 17th, 2003 at 7:41 pm.
 
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