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Could Harry have been prophesied?



 
 
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Old July 30th, 2002, 7:39 pm
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Could Harry have been prophecied?

This theory ties in my ideas about Grindelwald, why the fact of centuars continues to irk me, and the idea that Voldemort and Harry are not related (among other things.) Mind you, my ideas are always in flux, so nothing I say here is finite. Please disprove and affirm as much as you can...

Could Harry have been prophecied?

Perhaps Voldemort is obsessed with defeating/killing Harry because Harry has been prophecied to be the one to put an end to the threat of the abuse of the Dark Arts. This would imply, then, that the threat of a Dark Lord overtaking the wizarding world does not begin and end with the rise of Voldemort, but may have begun during the era of Grindelwald.

Of course, prophecies can never be regarded as "truth," per say, but they are difficult to ignore once a course of events follow a particular predicted path; and, when knowing of a prophecy, a devout believer can make things happen to ensure it is either defeated or followed through.

Thus, perhaps Grindelwald, a great Dark wizard, had knowledge of a particular prophecy, one that foretold of the end of the threat of the Dark Arts, i.e. the threat of a Dark Lord. Being a Dark wizard that felt it his destiny/duty to aid in the rise of the Dark Arts, he felt that he must equip the one he believed had the potential to become the greatest Dark Sorcerer in wizarding history...Tom Riddle.

In order to follow this part of the theory, we would have to assume that Grindelwald was a professor at Hogwarts, perhaps the DADA during the time when Tom Riddle first became a student. This, actually, is not too far-fetched (as pointed out in the "A great theory I found..." thread in MNet), as Grindelwald was defeated by DD in 1945, 50 years before Ginny found Tom Riddle's diary in CoS (i.e. he was around when Riddle was a Hogwarts student); I'm just taking it a step further.

Now, let us say that Grindelwald had not yet been discovered as a Dark wizard during his time at Hogwarts. After all, DD was, as yet, only a professor that could suspect things, but not necessarily act on them (as with Snape and Quirell.) Having knowledge of this prophecy foils Grindelwald's ideas of power because it mentions, at some point, that one Dark Wizard will triumph in taking a powerful hold on the wizarding world where a previous Dark Wizard fails, and he begins to do research on prospective students to Hogwarts. Upon research, he finds that a certain Tom Riddle is the "last" heir of Slytherin that is disenchanted with his life among muggles. Thus, when Riddle begins school, Grindelwald immediately takes him under his wing, using Riddle's disgust with his father as a way to encourage his learning of the Dark Arts, so that, gradually, Riddle begins to believe that he can use the Dark Arts to gain enough power to change the past, present, and future.

After all, it is revealed in CoS that Riddle knew of his heirship when he was 11 (i.e. during his first year at Hogwarts); says the 16-year-old memory of Riddle to Harry on page 317, US version:
Quote:
It had taken me five whole years to find out everything I could about the Chamber of Secrets and discover the secret entrance....
Perhaps Grindelwald, knowing the prophecy of "Harry," believed that he could change what was written as destined to happen if he informed the Dark Wizard-that-would-triumph-where-he-failed at an early enough age so that this Dark Wizard (Riddle) would have years of preparation and apprenticeship, and would be able to seek out this prophecied "Great" wizard (Harry) before he was powerful enough to defend himself, thereby ensuring the rise of the Dark Arts.

Little did Grindelwald, or Riddle, know that DD became aware of the same prophecy, and DD's effort to ensure that the prophecy came true is/was greater than Grindelwald's effort to defeat it. Perhaps during their battle, Grindelwald (in the fashion of all evil villains) lets it spill that though he may be defeated, there is another that will succeed in establishing the reign of the Dark Arts. DD takes this last declaration to heart, and shortly after, comes to suspect Riddle, especially after Riddle opens the Chamber of Secrets (which Riddle does as a way to express his grief for Grindelwald, but also to show his defeated mentor that he will continue what they had begun. ) Thus, DD does some research of his own based on his idea that Riddle's reign will come to pass, and finds out that the only person that can defeat this Dark Wizard, who is the "last" heir of Slytherin, is an "heir" of Gryffindor.

At this point, the theory can fork: Either DD is an "heir" of Gryffindor, and he realizes that at the point Riddle becomes powerful, he (DD) will be getting on in years and, well, won't be as invincible; or, basically, he is not an "heir," but begins to do research to find an "heir."

So, he follows the line of the "heirs" of Gryffindor in the years that follow (as Riddle is still in his formidable years, and it not quite as masterful in magic...yet). And, as yet, he does not find an "heir" that shows the potential of being "Great" or equal in training to that of Riddle. Until, that is, he comes upon James Potter. Thus, he takes James under his wing, but not as early as Grindewald took on Riddle. As a result, James is not as proficient or keen a wizard as Riddle/Voldemort. Eventually, while James falls in love and marries Lily (a bright and proficient charms student), Voldemort reveals himself and begins to reign terror on the wizarding world. At this point, DD finds it imperative to inform James and Lily about the prophecy, about why DD taught James so much and what not. It just so happens that Lily is pregnant...

Now, Voldemort, still aware of the prophecy, knows of the potentiality of being defeated. Thus, he has done his homework as well, and with the help of the Death Eaters eventually comes to suspect the Potters. He learns that Lily has given birth to a son, and realizes that this son could be his downfall (as Harry could be taught as early Voldemort to be a powerful Great Wizard.) So, he seeks them out, and, thanks to Pettigrew, finds that they reside in Godric Hollow.

Hence, Voldemort goes to kill Harry, but must first confront James (to ensure the blood line ends with Harry), and then goes to kill Harry. Little does Voldemort know, but much to the delight of DD, that Lily had taken precautions against this very instance. She had done her homework, and being masterful in charms, came upon a countercharm that would protect her son, though it would cost her her life. So, Lily dies for Harry, and in his overconfidence (as is a plague with villians) believes that nothing now stands in his way of killing Harry and defeating the prophecy his mentor, Grindelwald, had trained him to defeat. And, well, we know what occurs at this point...

Well, I know that there may be holes in this theory as large as lakes, but I thought it was worth mentioning to see if it would ignite any ideas in my fellow forum members. So, pick it apart, yo, and let me know what you think.



Last edited by pasalita; August 4th, 2002 at 7:45 pm.
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  #2  
Old July 30th, 2002, 7:58 pm
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Quote:
Is this a plausible theory?
Yes! It really makes sense :bigtu: I've never mentioned that someone told Tom Riddle about his heirship. We know only one dark wizard - Grindewald. So it is possible. Good point.


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Old July 30th, 2002, 8:04 pm
TheSortingHat TheSortingHat is offline
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After a first read, I can't find anything particularly wrong with it. In fact, it incorporates some of my favorite theories (such as the charm that cost Lily her life), and does so in a plausable, if long-winded, manner.

I agree with everything except the "heir" of Gryffindor. But that is a minor issue, overall, I like the theory.

TheSortingHat


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Old July 30th, 2002, 8:58 pm
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It's a very plausible theory. The only problem I found with it after a first read is that Riddle set the Basilisk out of grief for Grindelwald. Gwld was defeated in 1945 and Riddle graduated 1944. Still, it doesn't mess with your idea that Grindelwald taught Riddle. Otherwise, it's a great theory.


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Old July 30th, 2002, 10:08 pm
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Thats a good theory. This is one that I actually believe.


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  #6  
Old July 31st, 2002, 2:52 am
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Excellant theory! Of course maybe one reason I think so is that my sister and I developed a theory almost exactly the same as that about a month ago. Cool coincidence So I find it very plausible


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Old July 31st, 2002, 3:59 am
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I read that twice trying to think of some major flaw...but I can't find any. That really is a great theory and congrats on finding it. (You too, Jaded!)

I had never even thought of that as a possibility. I guess my brain is to slow to pick up on these things.

Anyways, I think that is a great theory and we might find out some of it to be true in the future.


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Old July 31st, 2002, 4:33 am
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Originally posted by jaded
Excellant theory! Of course maybe one reason I think so is that my sister and I developed a theory almost exactly the same as that about a month ago. Cool coincidence So I find it very plausible
Isn't that scary, when people will vibe on the most "out-there" type of thoughts, but never know it until its recorded somewhere else?

Uncannny.


  #9  
Old August 2nd, 2002, 11:18 pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSortingHat
After a first read, I can't find anything particularly wrong with it. In fact, it incorporates some of my favorite theories (such as the charm that cost Lily her life), and does so in a plausable, if long-winded, manner.

I agree with everything except the "heir" of Gryffindor. But that is a minor issue, overall, I like the theory.

TheSortingHat
This intrigues me, TSH. I only really included the "heir" part because it's the only one that sounded plausible to me, and I thought I'd incorporate it in a way that didn't imply that Harry and Voldemort were related. But, of course, there may be other theories.

I'm curious - why don't you like the "heir" theories?


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 12:21 am
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Heh, now its time for a rant against Heirs - when I do this, it tends to get long rather quickly, so be warned.

I have long been at odds with the whole idea that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. It doesn't seem to make sense, although the evidence can be interpreted to say that this is the case. Recently, however, I realized why I didn't like the Heir theory, and came to grips with it - I can now support it with slight modifications.

Firstly, I'd like to clarify exactly what Heir means. An heir is not necessarily the descendant of a particular person - it can be and often is, but it isn't part of the definition of the term. Salazar Slytherin placed much emphasis on blood and the judging of persons based on familial relations. He was also set up as a not-quite-evil guy who we still shouldn't like, as a foil to Godric Gryffindor - a person we are conditioned to honor for his strength of character.

Now, we know that the books emphasize the foolishness of judging someone based on "so-called purity of blood." Slytherin's Heir is a direct descendant of Salazar himself - Slytherin placed importance on that relationship.

Godric Gryffindor, on the other hand, did not care who somebody was born but whom they grew to be. He liked having Muggle-born students at Hogwarts, and, in my opinion, would care much more about what the character of a person was than who their parents were.

Many people make the mistake of assuming that an heir would be a descendent of the person who is granting heirship. The precedent for this was Riddle's relationship to Slytherin. However, Gryffindor, should he have an Heir, wouldn't care whether his heir was related to him or not - as long as he or she had the classic Gryffindor characteristics.

So, what bothers me about Heir theories is that they generally imply that Harry was related to Gryffindor - which I don't like, for the above reasons. I also don't like the idea of Gryffindor even having an Heir - but that has no basis in fact, its merely an instinct, and can be overridden for a good theory like this one.

TheSortingHat

PS - this was rather long and off-topic. Feel free to move it, should that be necessary.


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 12:54 am
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pasalita, that is a very good theory! It's actually believable and pretty interesting.

Oh, and to Kneazle, how did you find out Tom Riddle gratuated in 1944?

xoxo, Sabrina


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 1:27 am
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Another thing against the heir theories is that it was only used in Chamber of Secrets. I don't remember hearing anything about being heir after the second book. I would think that Voldemort would have mentioned something during his speech to Harry and the death eaters...


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 1:31 am
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This is a really great theory. I like the idea of a powerful dark wizard taking Riddle under his wing to help him start his path to evil. This would explain that Voldemort did not do this all on his own, but with help from the generation before him.

TheSorting Hat- I always used to belive that Harry was the heir of Gryffindor, but your ideas are making a lot more sense. Only Slytherin placed emphasis on blood, so his heir would be his desendant. There could be a desendant of Gryffindor out there, but that would not be his true heir, the one who shares his characteristics.


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 2:57 am
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Wow, that theory makes a lot of sence. Some of what you said I have been wondering about recently and thinking that it could be a possibility. Great job.


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 3:06 am
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarryPotterFan01
Oh, and to Kneazle, how did you find out Tom Riddle gratuated in 1944?
Sorry, I got the dates slightly confused. He'd actually have graduted in '45. In CoS (1992-3) we're taken back 50 years to Tom's fifth year in Hogwarts. That would be 1942-3. He'd graduate two years later (1944-5). I forgot that he was in his fifth year for a moment-- being sixteen I thought he'd' graduate the next year. So that is how I got '44. But it is '45.


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 3:41 am
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Originally posted by TheSortingHat
PS - this was rather long and off-topic. Feel free to move it, should that be necessary.
I don't think it was off-topic at all! (which is why I posed the question in the first place). I found this to be very interesting, and it allows for a wider range of perspective and expectation. The more outside ideas, the better. Isn't that what these forums are about?

By the way, thanks to everyone for the big ups!:o


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 6:44 am
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Could Harry have been prophesied?

GREAT THEORY! *applauds* I've read it before, but it's still great. I'm too slow and stupid to find any fault with it, so maybe I can add my own ideas.

I love of the idea of some ancient prophecy lying around somewhere. Prophecy always adds something mystrious to a story, as well as sense of destiny. And I agree that it probably deals with the fall of the dark arts forever. The reason Grindewald could have been so desperate to find an apprentice, is for maybe for that very reason. That this prophecy may have stated that with the fall of the last Dark Lord, a new era in magic and its use would arise, where the dark arts would be exposed and not allowed to fester (no Knockturn Alley in other words). Harry, is probably the prophesied one who will do this. So, I think Harry's birth and Voldemort's rise were prophesied, and I think we'll see that prophecy in the story.

Any, those are my thoughts. Not very inciteful, but oh well.


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Old August 3rd, 2002, 8:37 am
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:bigtu: pasalita. That's a monster theory and seems very plausible to me. That would be very good to read in future books.


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Old August 4th, 2002, 7:37 pm
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Re: Could Harry have been prophesied?

Quote:
Originally posted by LewsTherin
GREAT THEORY! *applauds* I've read it before, but it's still great. I'm too slow and stupid to find any fault with it, so maybe I can add my own ideas.

I love of the idea of some ancient prophecy lying around somewhere. Prophecy always adds something mystrious to a story, as well as sense of destiny. And I agree that it probably deals with the fall of the dark arts forever. The reason Grindewald could have been so desperate to find an apprentice, is for maybe for that very reason. That this prophecy may have stated that with the fall of the last Dark Lord, a new era in magic and its use would arise, where the dark arts would be exposed and not allowed to fester (no Knockturn Alley in other words). Harry, is probably the prophesied one who will do this. So, I think Harry's birth and Voldemort's rise were prophesied, and I think we'll see that prophecy in the story.

Any, those are my thoughts. Not very inciteful, but oh well.
LewTherin: you're supercool ! Thanks for the compliment!

I really like what you've added to the theory. I love the idea that Harry will be revolutionary in the sense that he will lay the groundwork for a new era in magic. It qualifies the idea that Harry was prophecied in a way that I couldn't even fathom!


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Old August 4th, 2002, 9:14 pm
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Could Harry have been prophesied?

Quote:
Originally posted by pasalita
LewTherin: you're supercool! Thanks for the compliment!

I really like what you've added to the theory. I love the idea that Harry will be revolutionary in the sense that he will lay the groundwork for a new era in magic. It qualifies the idea that Harry was prophecied in a way that I couldn't even fathom!
Aw, cut it out pasalita, you're making me blush!:o Just read Wheel of Time, it really helps with theories of any sort.


 
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