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  #41  
Old May 12th, 2009, 3:50 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

All this talk of leading questions and bullying brings to mind the Couric and Gibson interviews of Governor Palin. Seems that when the shoe's on the other foot the Dems cry foul far too frequently while at the same time trying to defend their own "questionable journalism". The hypocrisy astounds me sometimes.


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  #42  
Old May 12th, 2009, 4:22 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

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So, by that standard you are agreeing with Glick that the United States is a terrorist state, and exercising your right to Freedom Of Speech. Bully for you.
Not necessarily. I'm saying that according to the standard set by Bush, the US is a terrorist nation.


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  #43  
Old May 12th, 2009, 4:57 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Despite the fact that he fails to meet any number of professional standards, the role of journalist and commentator are different. He is no journalist.
You can mince words about what O'Reilly is or is not all you wish. It is irrelevant pertaining to his rights of Free Speech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
All this talk of leading questions and bullying brings to mind the Couric and Gibson interviews of Governor Palin. Seems that when the shoe's on the other foot the Dems cry foul far too frequently while at the same time trying to defend their own "questionable journalism". The hypocrisy astounds me sometimes.
It is the right of the Press to ask leading questions. A politician should be savvy enough to root that out, and dismiss the lead. If they can't then they shouldn't sit in office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Not necessarily. I'm saying that according to the standard set by Bush, the US is a terrorist nation.
This is about Free Speech, not about what is or isn't a terrorist nation. Glick's accusation falls into a grey area. It is opinion, but it has been presented as fact without evidence, and is therefore libelous. It is essentially Macarthism all over again, and that speech is borderline incitement. Inciting Speech is not protected speech.


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  #44  
Old May 12th, 2009, 5:27 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
It is the right of the Press to ask leading questions. A politician should be savvy enough to root that out, and dismiss the lead. If they can't then they shouldn't sit in office.
Absolutely. The unwritten rule is that, while cutting some slack for ordinary citizens, politicians can fend for themselves. Political reporting today is terribly constrained by well drilled faces trained to talk much, say nothing and never stray from the party line.

You don't have to go too far back to see how much more robust was the coverage and how much better for free speech it was.


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  #45  
Old May 12th, 2009, 5:35 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Should I write a new media poll examining the free speech rights of those with a microphone in their hands? (owl me if you'd like that idea)


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  #46  
Old May 12th, 2009, 6:13 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

To raise a separate issue. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) has binned a segment of the excellent The Gruen Transfer "which joked about the Holocaust, Jews, black people and homosexuals".

SMH

This raises sveral issues:

While its accepted that governments shouldn't restrict freedom of speech, other bodies have no such duties.

But, the ABC is a government broadcaster.

However, The Gruen Transfer is made by an independent production company. It is just aired by the ABC.

For me, the test of comedy is: is it funny?


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Last edited by Wab; May 12th, 2009 at 6:16 pm.
  #47  
Old May 12th, 2009, 6:54 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
I beg to differ with you, but under the USA's system of government at the very heart of the 1st Amendment is the right of a person to cut someone off, or even "bully" them verbally.
I'm sorry I was not clear enough. My intention was not to deny this guy's right to bully his show guests. I think that anyone who accepts an invitation to that show can blame themselves.

I just don't think it's on topic in a thread intended for serious discussion about freedom of speech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
To raise a separate issue. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) has binned a segment of the excellent The Gruen Transfer "which joked about the Holocaust, Jews, black people and homosexuals".

SMH

This raises sveral issues:

While its accepted that governments shouldn't restrict freedom of speech, other bodies have no such duties.

But, the ABC is a government broadcaster.

However, The Gruen Transfer is made by an independent production company. It is just aired by the ABC.

For me, the test of comedy is: is it funny?
I don't know what special agreements between the government and ABC may apply, but I believe that generally the broadcaster has all rights to decide what to broadcast or not. At least in my neck of the woods neither government or parliament has anything to say about what our public service channels do or do not broadcast.


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  #48  
Old May 12th, 2009, 7:01 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

What do you guys think about the new Cyberbullying bill proposed by Representative Linda Sanchez (D)?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1966:

Is this bill a direct violation of the First Amendment?

IMO, yes, it is. It is far too broad in it's scope and power. Bullying/verbal taunts and so forth are not the same as hate speech/incitement to violence, necessarily. Bullying on the Internet is really no different from bullying on the playground. I don't see where law enforcement has to enter the equation.

Furthermore, this bill imposes little or no restrictions on the conditions of said "cyberbullying", and could even be used to shutdown and incarcerate bloggers with political views different from whatever party is currently in power. Just as flimsycauldon pointed out, no party has a monopoly on infringing on free speech over another.
Overall, I think this bill is a disaster waiting to happen, if passed.

That said, freedom of speech has always had it's limitations. In fact, just plain "freedom" has always had limitations.
You aren't free to lie about somebody (libel/slander) in a public forum; you aren't free to impose on another's persons rights; you aren't free to steal, assault someone, rape, or murder.
Political correctness itself has run amuck, I feel, and often violates the 1st. (Though inexplicably, it's still perfectly "okay" to make fun of impoverished white folks who live in the southeast USA, and their culture, as "rednecks")

Freedom is, always has been, and always will be, a relative term.


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  #49  
Old May 12th, 2009, 9:31 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grymmditch View Post
What do you guys think about the new Cyberbullying bill proposed by Representative Linda Sanchez (D)?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1966:

Is this bill a direct violation of the First Amendment?

IMO, yes, it is. It is far too broad in it's scope and power. Bullying/verbal taunts and so forth are not the same as hate speech/incitement to violence, necessarily. Bullying on the Internet is really no different from bullying on the playground. I don't see where law enforcement has to enter the equation.

Furthermore, this bill imposes little or no restrictions on the conditions of said "cyberbullying", and could even be used to shutdown and incarcerate bloggers with political views different from whatever party is currently in power. Just as flimsycauldon pointed out, no party has a monopoly on infringing on free speech over another.
Overall, I think this bill is a disaster waiting to happen, if passed.

That said, freedom of speech has always had it's limitations. In fact, just plain "freedom" has always had limitations.
You aren't free to lie about somebody (libel/slander) in a public forum; you aren't free to impose on another's persons rights; you aren't free to steal, assault someone, rape, or murder.
Political correctness itself has run amuck, I feel, and often violates the 1st. (Though inexplicably, it's still perfectly "okay" to make fun of impoverished white folks who live in the southeast USA, and their culture, as "rednecks")

Freedom is, always has been, and always will be, a relative term.

I agree. I think the cyber bullying act is a big step in the wrong direction. Say you run a blog that takes on your local school district for shoddy and questionable programs. Say you call the school district on every distortion and bit of misinformation they convey and you name names. You could be prosecuted for cyber bullying by the government under this bill. So much for government watchdogs......


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  #50  
Old May 12th, 2009, 10:59 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

A bill for cyberbullying is an ok idea in theory, but just like any other form of controlling freedom of speech, it has its good and bad. I personally think slander and inciting violence are the only two forms that should be controlled, and even then, it has its limiations


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  #51  
Old May 12th, 2009, 11:39 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Hoax tests validity of online sources

Well, as long as we are discussing Free Speech, you all will love this one.

I point this out because Wikipedia is often cited, by myself included, as the source of information, point, and counter-point brought into this forum. It is important for us to credit our sources when we debate, but even more important that those sources have credibility...

A Dublin University Sociology student posted a fake quote on the Wikipedia's listing for composer Maurice Jarre following his death. After about a month, many credible news sources quoted that fake quote directly, believing it to be fact. Wikipedia actually caught the fallacy twice, and removed it both times. The news sources did not.


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  #52  
Old May 12th, 2009, 11:57 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Hoax tests validity of online sources

Well, as long as we are discussing Free Speech, you all will love this one.

I point this out because Wikipedia is often cited, by myself included, as the source of information, point, and counter-point brought into this forum. It is important for us to credit our sources when we debate, but even more important that those sources have credibility...
Wikipedia has had its share of problems. But because of its openness and transparency, it typically aids in research that can lead to even better sources.

Funny that they've even created their own article on the issue: Criticism of Wikipedia


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  #53  
Old May 13th, 2009, 12:01 am
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Hoax tests validity of online sources

Well, as long as we are discussing Free Speech, you all will love this one.

I point this out because Wikipedia is often cited, by myself included, as the source of information, point, and counter-point brought into this forum. It is important for us to credit our sources when we debate, but even more important that those sources have credibility...

A Dublin University Sociology student posted a fake quote on the Wikipedia's listing for composer Maurice Jarre following his death. After about a month, many credible news sources quoted that fake quote directly, believing it to be fact. Wikipedia actually caught the fallacy twice, and removed it both times. The news sources did not.
this is definitely going to make me slightly more wary of what i use on wikipedia, but i'm not sure i would stop using wikipedia either, because it still is a very useful source, and even if the information isn't credible, the sources it comes from at least somewhat are.


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  #54  
Old May 13th, 2009, 12:58 am
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Re: Freedom of Speech

I am appalled at the news sources. [/sarcasm]

Wikipedia is good for what it is, but you can't take it for 100% truth. You can't cite in a scholarly paper. It's a good starting place, but it's not the end-all.


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  #55  
Old May 13th, 2009, 7:11 am
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grymmditch View Post
What do you guys think about the new Cyberbullying bill proposed by Representative Linda Sanchez (D)?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1966:

Is this bill a direct violation of the First Amendment?

IMO, yes, it is. It is far too broad in it's scope and power. Bullying/verbal taunts and so forth are not the same as hate speech/incitement to violence, necessarily. Bullying on the Internet is really no different from bullying on the playground. I don't see where law enforcement has to enter the equation.

Furthermore, this bill imposes little or no restrictions on the conditions of said "cyberbullying", and could even be used to shutdown and incarcerate bloggers with political views different from whatever party is currently in power. Just as flimsycauldon pointed out, no party has a monopoly on infringing on free speech over another.
Overall, I think this bill is a disaster waiting to happen, if passed.
I'm not sure. Reading that link, I got the impression that it would be illegal to continually attempt to harass someone over the Internet. I would hope that a distinction would be made between harassment and general speech, as there is in offline life. Offline, a distinction tends to be made between, for example, getting in a fight with your friend where some harsh words are said and getting mad at your friend and calling them repeatedly at 3 AM to disrupt their sleep and verbally assault them. I would think that a similar parallel applies in this new bill.


  #56  
Old May 13th, 2009, 1:57 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Here is another example of a group exercising its right to Free Speech, Freedom of Assembly, and Freedom of Expression: University of Notre Dame students and faculty protesting President Obama's delivery of the Commencement Address.

Though a university, and its admissions is open to anyone, over 90% of the student body at Notre Dame is Catholic. A fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church is the embracing of life, and therefore Catholics as a rule are against abortion, stem-cell research, and gay and lesbian marriage. President Obama supports these positions, or has expressed open-mindedness toward them.

My understanding is the sitting Chancellor of Notre Dame supports the students. Strange.


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  #57  
Old May 13th, 2009, 7:08 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

The students have a right to protest, I guess. I'm not sure if I'm correct, but I think that inside the institution Obama does not have the right to say whatever he wanted as protected by freedom of speech, but I could be wrong on that. I've heard of this topic before, but I'm not sure if they're just protesting him or protesting what he's come to say. I'm not a fan of the man, but I don't think they should protest him if he isn't going to speak on topics that go against Notre Dame and what Catholics believe.


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  #58  
Old May 13th, 2009, 7:21 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Here is another example of a group exercising its right to Free Speech, Freedom of Assembly, and Freedom of Expression: University of Notre Dame students and faculty protesting President Obama's delivery of the Commencement Address.

Though a university, and its admissions is open to anyone, over 90% of the student body at Notre Dame is Catholic. A fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church is the embracing of life, and therefore Catholics as a rule are against abortion, stem-cell research, and gay and lesbian marriage. President Obama supports these positions, or has expressed open-mindedness toward them.
Bush's commencement speech was also protested as the Catholic Church rejects capital punishment, something the president ethusiastically applied.

COntroversial commencements are a bit of a ND tradition.

http://open.salon.com/blog/kevin_gos...a_isnt_a_first


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Last edited by Wab; May 13th, 2009 at 7:25 pm.
  #59  
Old May 13th, 2009, 9:20 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

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Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
The students have a right to protest, I guess. I'm not sure if I'm correct, but I think that inside the institution Obama does not have the right to say whatever he wanted as protected by freedom of speech, but I could be wrong on that. I've heard of this topic before, but I'm not sure if they're just protesting him or protesting what he's come to say. I'm not a fan of the man, but I don't think they should protest him if he isn't going to speak on topics that go against Notre Dame and what Catholics believe.
They are protesting what the man believes in, which is equivocal to protesting the man himself. It would be rather difficult to protest a commencement speech that has not yet been made, and that's topics are yet unknown. They are completely within their rights, however.


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  #60  
Old May 13th, 2009, 10:31 pm
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Re: Freedom of Speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Despite the fact that he fails to meet any number of professional standards, the role of journalist and commentator are different. He is no journalist.
Can I just second Wab here?

O'Reilly.Is.No.Journalist.


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