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Abortion v4.



View Poll Results: Do you think abortion should be legal or illegal?
Should abortion be legal without restrictions? 42 35.00%
If legal, should abortion require the consent of the father? 10 8.33%
Should it be legal if, and only if it would save the life of the mother? 26 21.67%
Should abortion be illegal under all circumstances? 22 18.33%
Other. Explain in post. 20 16.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old June 30th, 2008, 5:54 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheree View Post
Like I said, I believe abortion is wrong. I don't believe the woman who opts for abortion when she finds that her life is threatened is a bad person.
Do you think a woman who has an abortion for other reasons is bad? Or again, just the action?
(that's not meant to sound like an attack by the way, I just cant think of another way to word it. I'm genuinely interested)

Quote:
What about tubal ligation? When the egg implants in the fallopian tube, rather than in the uterus, the fetus must be aborted in order to save the mother's life. Let me make this clear: the mother will die -- will certainly die -- if the pregnancy is not terminated. And the baby will die also. There is no chance that the pregnancy will ever develop enough that the baby can survive, because it will kill the mother well before the baby can ever be born.
I think you'd have a hard time finding any doctor who would let that pregnancy continue! Obviously the mother would require hospitalisation and the doctors would be obligated to save her life, wouldn't they? Even if she didn't want to abort.
Actually... could they do that? Because by leaving the fetus where it is, the doctor wouldn't be treating the patient at all but rather just letting her die. In a case like this where the mother was against abortion 100% would the doctor still be able to perform the surgery in order to save her life?

I know that's not what you were getting at exactly, but it just occurred to me.


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Last edited by Hysteria; June 30th, 2008 at 6:00 pm.
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  #62  
Old June 30th, 2008, 6:18 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsumi View Post
Then it's a good thing we don't need your blessing.
Yes...for those in favor of it. If only I held the Wisdom of Solomon.

Quote:
Sheree -- I respect that you feel abortion is wrong, but I confess I am completely baffled that you would not allow it in cases where the mother's health is at risk. To me that just seems sort of... I don't know, sadistic?
What about tubal ligation? When the egg implants in the fallopian tube, rather than in the uterus, the fetus must be aborted in order to save the mother's life. Let me make this clear: the mother will die -- will certainly die -- if the pregnancy is not terminated. And the baby will die also. There is no chance that the pregnancy will ever develop enough that the baby can survive, because it will kill the mother well before the baby can ever be born.
Incidentally, a tubal ligation is a procedure commonly referred to as having one's tubes tied. I think you are thinking of a tubal pregnancy...There is no chance of fetal survival, however, most tubal pregnancies spontaneously abort themselves, and the female expels the tissue. Occasionally, they do not, but by the time medical care is required there is no viable fetus. If any Right-to-Lifers have a problem with this, I doubt we can change their minds.

Quote:
Even in that case, you would say that God put the baby there and God intended for both mother and baby to die?

If that's the case, why don't we all just do away with medicine altogether? God intended me to die of heart disease! God intended my neighbour to bleed to death when he got in his car accident. God intended for my best friend's blood sugar to spike up and put her in a coma from her diabetes.

Let's just all leave nature to take its course and see what happens.
Perfect point...I couldn't have said it better.


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  #63  
Old June 30th, 2008, 6:22 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Tubal ligation... *slaps forehead* My bad. I did mean to say tubal pregnancy.

It would be an entirely needless waste of life to deny a woman the right to an abortion in the case of a tubal pregnancy. (Got it right that time!).


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  #64  
Old June 30th, 2008, 6:23 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
Do you think a woman who has an abortion for other reasons is bad? Or again, just the action?
(that's not meant to sound like an attack by the way, I just cant think of another way to word it. I'm genuinely interested)
No. There are other situations where I admit that the stress that the mother is under could be such where the decision is one that is already so weighted that the last thing she needs is to have me watching over her shoulder.
For instance, if the child is definately suffering from a severe defect or something of that nature. Or a woman who was impregnated in an act of rape.
There are many, many situations where I can certainly sympathize with a woman seeking an abortion. Sympathy does not equal approval, but my disapproval is not the same as disdain. If my best friend came to me and told me that she was pregnant, that she was scared, and that she was getting an abortion, I would love her no less. I wouldn't go with her to the clinic, but I'd waiting with a hug when she got back home.


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  #65  
Old June 30th, 2008, 6:24 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post

I think you'd have a hard time finding any doctor who would let that pregnancy continue! Obviously the mother would require hospitalisation and the doctors would be obligated to save her life, wouldn't they? Even if she didn't want to abort.
Actually... could they do that? Because by leaving the fetus where it is, the doctor wouldn't be treating the patient at all but rather just letting her die. In a case like this where the mother was against abortion 100% would the doctor still be able to perform the surgery in order to save her life?
As far as treating someone against their will, that would be considered assault, and probably kidnapping or unlawful restraint. However, if the patient's condition changed to a point where they are no longer able to make an informed decision a precedent called "Implied Consent" is assumed. This means, that health professionals can treat a patient without their verbal or written consent, because it would be "implied" that a reasonable person would want lifesaving treatment. Some grey areas exist on this, so naturally a judge might have to issue a court order. Most hospitals in the USA have judges hold hearings regularly at the hospital for these kinds of cases.


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  #66  
Old June 30th, 2008, 6:30 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Here many employers won't hire a woman if she's in a reproductive age. I was asked during a job interview once if I had a boyfriend.

May I give another hypothetical for discussion? If that's not aganist the rules? If it is, please delete this part of my post.

Hypothetical: I am a married woman and have two small children, 8 and 3. My husband, my children and I live in my borther's flat, because we're in the middle of building our own house. We've been doing that for three years now, and in the middle of it, the socialist regime of my country fell and presently we're living in a complete chaos. Inflation rate is monstrous - the night before I left money for my elder daughter to buy two loaves of bread; the next day she calls me at work and says the money isn't enough for a single loaf of bread today. In such a situation I find myself pregnant with my third child. I discuss it with my husband and decide to have an abortion.

I would like to ask, what would you advise this woman to do in this situation? To keep the child with no certainty whether they will be able to feed it and the other two? To keep it, abandon the house and not know whether they will have a home at all when the time comes that her brother will need to live in his own flat, because he has children of his own? Tell her she should have chosen a better country to start a family? Or that she should carry it to term and give it up for adoption, living the rest of her life with the knowledge that she had abandoned one of her children and s/he is somewhere in the world, unreachable to her?

It's easy to judge from afar. It's difficult to be there, in a situation like this, and forced to make a choice with no good outcome in either case.
How terrible for that woman, indeed for that couple. So much problem and she is pregnant as well. I have seen many, many couples like this in India, when they are faced with such tough choices IMO.

While I hate to say it, I think the woman is better if she aborts the baby, because while I think she has a responsibility to the baby in the womb, she also has a responsibility towards her other 2 kids. What if the mother became so weak because of her pregnancy and what if she even died because she could not take proper food or medicine. What would happen to the other 2 kids? I think she and her husband must decide to give this baby which has not seen the world as yet away so that they can take care of the other 2 who are already living in this world IMO.

Nobody IMO aborts because they can. They abort for a reason that they feel is valid to them and I feel that we should only support such people, instead of telling them they have sinned (religion for example) IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheree View Post
Like I said, I believe abortion is wrong.
I respect your opinion, but I don't look at it that way. I think abortion like all other things, depend on why a person is doing it. No one would like to abort without a valid reason, a reason they know cannot be worked around and I think I must respect that and as you said, not judge them, but I would also add, not judge their action as well.

Quote:
because I told them that I refused to judge a woman who made that decision based on those circumstances.
I don't believe we can judge another's actions unless we know what prompted them to act the way they did in the first place. And I do think in the case of abortions, women don't abort unless they have a very good reason to, and I do think the family, society and law must be with them to help them, in what would be a traumatic period for them IMO.

The entire post is my opinon.


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  #67  
Old June 30th, 2008, 7:37 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Just a friendly admin note, some of the posts on the past couple pages are coming across as very confrontational. I get that people feel strongly about this but please remember this is a discussion thread not a Battle to the Death. Odds are good we're not going to change people's minds so please respect other people's right not to agree with you.


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  #68  
Old June 30th, 2008, 11:08 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsumi View Post
Sheree -- Wow. You don't even support a woman's right to an abortion if her life is in danger? Why should the baby's life be worth more than hers?

I'm positively gobsmacked.

To everyone else: someone asked about women being fired for being pregnant, etc., and it was pointed out that this is illegal in many countries. While it may be illegal, it still happens more often than you would think. Companies and businesses cover their butts by stating that the reason for the woman's dismissal was something else.
Some states in the US have the law that no reason has to be given to why they fire you, so in some places a woman could be fired for getting pregnant, having an abortion, or wearing a green and yellow striped shirt with orange pants.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post

Hypothetical: I am a married woman and have two small children, 8 and 3. My husband, my children and I live in my borther's flat, because we're in the middle of building our own house. We've been doing that for three years now, and in the middle of it, the socialist regime of my country fell and presently we're living in a complete chaos. Inflation rate is monstrous - the night before I left money for my elder daughter to buy two loaves of bread; the next day she calls me at work and says the money isn't enough for a single loaf of bread today. In such a situation I find myself pregnant with my third child. I discuss it with my husband and decide to have an abortion.

I would like to ask, what would you advise this woman to do in this situation? To keep the child with no certainty whether they will be able to feed it and the other two? To keep it, abandon the house and not know whether they will have a home at all when the time comes that her brother will need to live in his own flat, because he has children of his own? Tell her she should have chosen a better country to start a family? Or that she should carry it to term and give it up for adoption, living the rest of her life with the knowledge that she had abandoned one of her children and s/he is somewhere in the world, unreachable to her?

It's easy to judge from afar. It's difficult to be there, in a situation like this, and forced to make a choice with no good outcome in either case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I explained how this would practically ruin the life and happiness of the parents forever - a happiness needed, as they are raising two small children.

And something else - what do you tell the other two children when the baby is born and then gone?



So they should have become celibate, even though they are married?

Also, they didn't know the full extent of damger in the situation, because socialism actually fell very suddenly, and only people very high in party hierarchy knew something about it before it was actually over.

And birth control at that time in that country was a luxury. Sexual education was nonexistent.
This sounds like a bad economy all around. Abortions cost money themselves. Can the family afford it? It sounds like maybe healthcare could be at a state where it's not great either. What kind of risks would the mother be putting on herself if she had an abortion? That could end up costing her money for the rest of her life. Can she afford that?


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Last edited by leah49; June 30th, 2008 at 11:27 pm.
  #69  
Old June 30th, 2008, 11:27 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
Some states in the US have the law that no reason has to be given to why they fire you, so in some places a woman could be fired for getting pregnant, having an abortion, or wearing a green and yellow striped shirt with orange pants.
So, your argument is a woman should not have an abortion if her life is in danger because she could lose her job?


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  #70  
Old June 30th, 2008, 11:54 pm
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Re: Abortion v4.

No, I think she was just pointing out that employers don't always [have to] give a reason for firing someone, so pregnancy can be the reason that someone gets fired (just as an abortion could be a reason like you stated with your morality clause example).
In my opinion, loss of job is a valid consideration when deciding whether or not to continue with a pregnancy. Just as other financial concerns are valid as well, such as the availability/cost of daycare for single parents, etc. It's all well and good to say that "you'll find a way" when the baby's born, but a woman has to believe that she can realistically do it.
Otherwise we are being counterproductive. We can't leave women alone with the responsibility of pregnancy and parenthood when we won't let them abort and then just expect them to be able to fend for themselves if they just plain don't have the money or resources to do it. Reality has to come into it.


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  #71  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:42 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

To take an action from you, Katsumi---***SLAPS FOREHEAD***

Maybe I should have read further down. I thought that was her reply to the statement about her not supporting it if a woman's life depended on it...


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  #72  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:42 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discordia View Post
There is such a battle over whether to make abortions illegal or not but there is absolutely no talk of what happens to the mothers and children after. I suppose that will be up to non profits and more local sectors to deal with. We should be trying to help women no matter what decision rather than berating them and keeping them down. A woman is damned if she does have an abortion and damned if she don't. I don't see the benefits in refusing to aid women with any sort of social program for having a baby she can't afford to raise on her own if she decides to keep the baby. Its one thing to preserve life but another to protect the quality of life and I think its completely hypocritical to fight women on the right to abortion if they choose and then wash ones hands of them after they have had the baby.
I definitely agree with you, there. I think there would still be a lot of abortions if more programs were put in place, but I wonder how many women would choose to carry the child to term instead if they knew that they would be given support or some kind. Surely that would be worthwhile and socially beneficial.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people, consciously or otherwise, blame women for getting pregnant, especially if they're unmarried. There's this idea that she made her bed and now has to lie in it, which I think is a horrible philosophy when a child comes into the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
That problem will exist whether abortion is legal or not. It is mostly from teenagers or those from strongly religious backgrounds that frown upon pregnancy out of wedlock. There are also some heritage issues, and a whole slew of other reasons for it too. But, the bottom line is, they would rather keep it quiet than go to an abortion clinic. Keeping a pregnancy quiet, IMO, will not change, legal or illegal.
I agree except in some cases where the girl lives in a place that mandates parental consent for abortion.

I was mainly using that as an example of a time where I feel that having an abortion would be more responsible than carrying the child. If a woman can carry the child to term and then make sure it has a good home, then I think that's great and probably ideal. However, if a woman/girl, for whatever reason, is not willing or able to take responsibility for her health and well-being and that of the fetus during pregnancy, then I think getting an abortion is better than irresponsibily giving birth to a child who was, for example, exposed to dangerous drugs while in the womb or otherwise given little consideration.

Quote:
Yes, there is no way to tell until they grow up. But, IMO, they should have the right to grow up and find out for themselves.

You know, I have seen many movies and read a few books about seeing the future, or knowing it. One in particular comes to mind called "MINORITY REPORT," starring Tom Cruise. The premise is that three siblings able to foretell the future of people are used to stop crime before it happens. The criminals haven't even done the crime yet, but are getting sentenced for what these three psychics see them doing in the future. How many of us Americans would stand for that? No many. Well, I see having an abortion because the kid "might" grow up to be a serial killer the same way.
I agree with you. My point is that you can't know how a child is going to grow up to be (though, if they're raised in a bad environment, that can set them back considerably). I think it's dangerous to start applying a specific amount of worth to someone's life, because it can go the other way, too.

For example, let's say there's a 16-year-old girl who's very bright. She has the potential to get a scholarship, go to college, and eventually become a doctor. She would love to try to find a cure for cancer. Then she gets pregnant, and ends up dropping out of high school because she's pressured out towards the end of her pregnancy. She decides to keep the child, and even though she loves it, she never returns to school or she doesn't return for several years. She never becomes a doctor.

If she had the potential to find a cure for cancer, then did she effectively sacrifice the lives of thousands for the sake of one child?

I've heard people say that they hesitate to become organ donors after death because they don't want their organs to go to someone lacking in potential or who ruined their own organs through alcohol or drug abuse. However, I don't want to choose who my organs go to, for the very reason above. There's no way to possibly know who is going to have a good impact on the world and who isn't.

I assume that all embryos and fetuses have potential to grow into children who will then have potential to do great things with their lives. Not all of this potential will be realized, and not all of it can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Sometimes, usually because of pre-existing medical conditions, such as severe diabetes, cardiovascular compromise, hemotological disorders, or malformations of the uterine wall or cervix, the likelihood of maternal death in cases of pregnancy can be reasonably predicted. Sometimes these conditions arise post-conception. In either case carrying the baby is equivilent to suicide. Some, like myself, would call it a noble sacrifice, while others would call it insanity. However, if the mother chooses self-preservation, who can blame her? When faced with the choice of jumping in a foxhole or jumping on the grenade, raise your hand if you would choose the grenade?
I definitely agree with you, there.

I think it would be an incredibly difficult decision. If a woman decides that it's worth it to her to sacrifice her life so that her baby might live, then I think that's very strong of her. Though, personally, I also think it would be incredibly difficult and heart-wrenching to abort a baby that you'd really like to have but know that you cannot safely carry.

I don't think it's right to judge people for wanting to preserve their lives, though. It's a natural, healthy instinct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsumi View Post
If I may, Yoana, here are a couple of pat responses I expect you'll get to your hypothetical:

"Just give the baby up for adoption! People all over the world are looking to adopt"
I'm not sure how much this would apply to the specific situation that Yoana was referring to, but that statement made me think. In the U.S., there are a fair number of people looking to adopt. In other cultures, it can be more difficult. It's not uncommon to hear about children in former Communist countries being held in over-crowded orphanages well into childhood. A lot of them, from what I recall in my readings, are not orphans but children of people who couldn't afford to raise them. It's pretty common for people from the U.S. to adopt children from Russia and China, and I've heard of cases where these children have suffered from psychological problems as a result of poor care in their home countries.

Here, most expectant mothers would probably be able to find people willing to adopt their baby. But if a country is in such economic turmoil that many people can't even afford to feed themselves, I imagine it might be harder to find people willing to adopt. You do have international adoptions, but there are so many children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheree View Post
For instance, if the child is definately suffering from a severe defect or something of that nature. Or a woman who was impregnated in an act of rape.
Occasionally a fetus has a defect so severe that it's fatal. It's hard for me to see why a woman should risk her own health and emotional well-being to give birth to a child that will not survive long enough to even really experience life, or that will be in severe pain. I can't imagine what it would be like to have people congratulate you on your pregnancy while you know that you're counting down the months until your child dies. I also see it as a bit similar to keeping a person on life-support. If you know that someone will not be able to live or live without life support, then I think it can be best to let go.


  #73  
Old July 1st, 2008, 1:32 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheree View Post
No. There are other situations where I admit that the stress that the mother is under could be such where the decision is one that is already so weighted that the last thing she needs is to have me watching over her shoulder.
For instance, if the child is definately suffering from a severe defect or something of that nature. Or a woman who was impregnated in an act of rape.
There are many, many situations where I can certainly sympathize with a woman seeking an abortion. Sympathy does not equal approval, but my disapproval is not the same as disdain. If my best friend came to me and told me that she was pregnant, that she was scared, and that she was getting an abortion, I would love her no less. I wouldn't go with her to the clinic, but I'd waiting with a hug when she got back home.
Thanks for clarifying on that.

I wonder, though, do you think a woman should be allowed to seek an abortion if her health is in danger? I know that you said you thought that abortion was wrong, but in the case where the mother's life is in serious danger, do you think that abortion should be legal and available to her should she choose it?
I'm just wondering where you draw the line, I guess. Is it something you are personally and morally opposed to in such cases, but you can see the need for it? Or are you against it in all instances and feel that it should be illegal in all instances?


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  #74  
Old July 1st, 2008, 3:00 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
Some states in the US have the law that no reason has to be given to why they fire you, so in some places a woman could be fired for getting pregnant, having an abortion, or wearing a green and yellow striped shirt with orange pants.
I'm sorry for going off-topic, but this is actually true. I live in one of those types of states and have lost a job for a very stupid reason before.
Quote:
This sounds like a bad economy all around. Abortions cost money themselves. Can the family afford it? It sounds like maybe healthcare could be at a state where it's not great either. What kind of risks would the mother be putting on herself if she had an abortion? That could end up costing her money for the rest of her life. Can she afford that?
If I'm not mistaken, I think that if a woman continuously have abortions, that in can affect her body to the point where she might can't have children down the road.


  #75  
Old July 1st, 2008, 3:28 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsumi View Post
Thanks for clarifying on that.

I wonder, though, do you think a woman should be allowed to seek an abortion if her health is in danger? I know that you said you thought that abortion was wrong, but in the case where the mother's life is in serious danger, do you think that abortion should be legal and available to her should she choose it?
I'm just wondering where you draw the line, I guess. Is it something you are personally and morally opposed to in such cases, but you can see the need for it? Or are you against it in all instances and feel that it should be illegal in all instances?
This is one of the reasons why I'll never go into politics.

Morally, I think abortion is wrong. I believe it in my heart, and I don't think it should be legal. But it is legal, and since it is, I realize that I cannot make that decision for someone else. I recognize that I have my limits! I respect that it is not an easy path to take, and as I said before, if a woman chooses that route, I'm not going to automatically assume that she is a reprehensible person for it.


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  #76  
Old July 1st, 2008, 3:55 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

But do you think it should be legal? I know you think it shouldn't be legal on demand. But if the mother's health is in danger (if she'll die if she doesn't have an abortion), do you think it should still be illegal?


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Old July 1st, 2008, 4:13 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsumi View Post
But do you think it should be legal? I know you think it shouldn't be legal on demand. But if the mother's health is in danger (if she'll die if she doesn't have an abortion), do you think it should still be illegal?
No, I don't think it should be legal. But it is, and I really don't see it ever being made illegal, so I've had to accept that fact. The fact that I've lived my entire life with legal abortion being a fact is part of the reason why I'm not even more against them than I already am. I expect that my children will probably hold far more liberal views than I do.


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Old July 1st, 2008, 4:14 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

This is something that the medical community will weigh in on heavily should a change in the current laws come to bear. Just as we had in the Terri Schivo case in Florida a few years back, the courts would look at what the general concensus of medical experts feel is prudent. I am not saying that is the only evidence they will need to see. I am quite sure they will listen to scholars, theologians, and people of various demographics.

In the end, I don't think for a minute that total Right-to-Life positions will be taken in the USA. Our nation will always consider the life of the mother, and never force her to die so that a fetus can grow.


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  #79  
Old July 1st, 2008, 4:27 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

I can actually understand the position of those on the pro-life side who would allow for exceptions in the case of danger to the mother and rape (though the rape thing is so fundamentally flawed that I think it's irrational and impossible to actually allow it). But I really can't get my head around wanting it to be illegal in all cases all the time.
It really would be like arguing that self-defence isn't a valid reason to take a human life, and that if someone broke into your house and tried to kill you you're legally bound to let them if you can't get away, since hurting them would be against the law.

Now, the fetus might not be killing the mother on purpose (and of course it isn't), but if the pregnancy is killing her she'll be just as dead as if someone had shot her in the head point blank. It does seem sadistic to not allow abortions when the mother's life is in danger. In that case it does really treat women like breeding stock who have no value in and of themselves outside of their biology.


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Old July 1st, 2008, 4:40 am
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Re: Abortion v4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsumi View Post
I can actually understand the position of those on the pro-life side who would allow for exceptions in the case of danger to the mother and rape (though the rape thing is so fundamentally flawed that I think it's irrational and impossible to actually allow it). But I really can't get my head around wanting it to be illegal in all cases all the time.
It really would be like arguing that self-defence isn't a valid reason to take a human life, and that if someone broke into your house and tried to kill you you're legally bound to let them if you can't get away, since hurting them would be against the law.

Now, the fetus might not be killing the mother on purpose (and of course it isn't), but if the pregnancy is killing her she'll be just as dead as if someone had shot her in the head point blank. It does seem sadistic to not allow abortions when the mother's life is in danger. In that case it does really treat women like breeding stock who have no value in and of themselves outside of their biology.
Actually it would likely be a torturous death, as she would probably die of sepsis (systemic infection). Fever, severe pain, tissue necrosis, possibly convulsions...a horrible way to go to be sure. It wouldn't happen in all cases, perhaps not even in most cases, but it would happen often. It could easily be avoided simply by evacuating the tissue before it becomes necrotic. Infection might still occur, but in most cases a simple antibiotic will clear that up.


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