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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5



 
 
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  #501  
Old August 8th, 2011, 8:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow
Voldemort was his own best propaganda machine, and Snape's belief in the strength of the Dark Arts may have fed into doubts that Voldemort might be defeated.
There is no canon to support this. Snape didn't say that he believed that the Dark Arts were strong, he pointed out that they were ever changing and that they can never be defeated. That does not mean that Voldemort can never be defeated, but that as SIP said there will be another Dark Lord along sooner or later. Hermione even liken Snape's speech to Harry's to the DA, so that would imply that Harry had also fed into doubts that Voldemort could be defeated. But I don't think this is the case. IMO both speechs are about fighting and winning against the Dark Arts, and not under estimating them.


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  #502  
Old August 8th, 2011, 8:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think it would be a simplification to describe Snape's treatment of Neville as only "comments on Neville's ineptitude" and a desire to encourage Neville "to make his potions properly."
Actually, you're right, he does not only comment on Neville's ineptitude. Twice in the same book he comes to Neville's defense (OotP):
First, an incident in which Snape didn't really know what was going on, but threatened Harry with a detention for manhandling Neville:

"Fighting, Potter, Weasley, Longbottom?" Snape said in his cold, sneering voice. "Ten points from Gryffindor. Release Longbottom, Potter, or it will be detention. Inside, all of you."

Then again when Neville was probably in some serious danger. I don't especially like the way he says this either, but it was entirely spontaneous given what was going on in that context:

"And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little, if Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork, and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job."
Personally, I think it's easy to see Snape's behavior as reprehensible, and I won't argue against that. However, I think there is definitely a pattern throughout the books of authority figures undermining Neville's confidence in one way or another compared to relatively few moments of encouragement. Snape does it the way Snape does everything. But he's hardly the only one, and I don't think we have enough data to decide whether he's the worst.



Last edited by canismajoris; August 8th, 2011 at 9:03 pm.
  #503  
Old August 8th, 2011, 9:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Whether belittling ineptitude or personal appearance. These were children under his care and guidance. And its always a shame when the bullied become the new bullies.


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  #504  
Old August 8th, 2011, 10:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

I've always wondered what the conversation between LV and Snape was once Snape told LV about the prophecy..? JK Rowling should've kept that in the Prince's tale, would have been so powerful!


  #505  
Old August 8th, 2011, 11:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I don't believe it is. Snape will often hint at his motives, and he only comments on Neville's ineptitude and his desire for Neville to make his potions properly.
Thats what i see as well. I dont really buy the whole "Snape hates Neville because of the prophecy" bit. After it was all said and done, he learned his lesson about caring about only one person. It just doesnt fit. I think he was just frustrated with Neville's lack of aptitude with his classes. I think the reason Neville's boggart was Snape at that time, is because Snape was pressuring him and it really frightened him. Sure, this was not the way to go to get Neville to be better in classes, but i do not think true malice was involved.

Quote:
I doubt Snape would have felt proud of Harry or Neville
I dont agree at all. I think Snape would have been massively proud of the fact Harry survived. He died under the impression Harry was going to die and that most of what Snape (and Harry) worked for would be all for naught in a sense. He would have been proud that Neville is no longer the inept child who melted his cauldron, and stood up to Voldemort like that. Now, would Snape have SHOWN that pride to Harry and Neville? Unlikely. But i doubt very seriously he wouldnt have been proud of the actions of those two.


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  #506  
Old August 8th, 2011, 11:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
Now, would Snape have SHOWN that pride to Harry and Neville? Unlikely. But i doubt very seriously he wouldnt have been proud of the actions of those two.
The difference here as I see it is encapsulated by the following two statements:

"I always knew you could do it."

"It's about time you did it."

One of those sounds a lot more like a Snape sentiment to me than the other. I don't think it's a matter of temperament or feelings, but one of what his expectations were going in. I suppose that Snape was very demanding of people around him--to be intelligent, to be capable, to be strong. If he had been around to see Harry's and Neville's triumphant moments I don't doubt he'd have felt validated on some level. But if he had always thought they were squandering their potential, how much joy could seeing them succeed eventually, after years, in spite of what he tried to teach them, really bring him?



Last edited by canismajoris; August 9th, 2011 at 12:57 am. Reason: dum de dummmm
  #507  
Old August 9th, 2011, 12:48 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
He would have been proud that Neville is no longer the inept child who melted his cauldron, and stood up to Voldemort like that. Now, would Snape have SHOWN that pride to Harry and Neville? Unlikely. But i doubt very seriously he wouldnt have been proud of the actions of those two.
Snape spent the better part of his life masking his feelings and his every thought. It was not in his nature to explain himself and I doubt he could have expressed these emotions to Neville or Harry. In the end, as he died, he couldn't explain in words to Harry what he thought, but he did express what he wanted to tell Harry by the memories he showed Harry in TPT.


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  #508  
Old August 9th, 2011, 1:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
There is no canon to support this. Snape didn't say that he believed that the Dark Arts were strong, he pointed out that they were ever changing and that they can never be defeated. That does not mean that Voldemort can never be defeated, but that as SIP said there will be another Dark Lord along sooner or later. Hermione even liken Snape's speech to Harry's to the DA, so that would imply that Harry had also fed into doubts that Voldemort could be defeated. But I don't think this is the case. IMO both speechs are about fighting and winning against the Dark Arts, and not under estimating them.
I was just replying to Siver Ink Pot's "So I think Snape would be proud that Voldemort was destructable after all, and that Harry and Neville did what was almost impossible." I can't say that I see much canon to indicate what Snape was feeling, so I was offering an alternative, which might be just as much of speculation as any put out there. I just don't see Snape as proud of other people at all. Is there NO canon to support that Snape felt the Dark Arts to be powerful, and Voldemort difficult to kill? I don't believe there is no canon for that. I think there is enough to support the theory, if one wanted to do that. Snape indicates at a young age that he thinks Lily will be okay even as a Muggleborn because she has loads of power, so I think a view of power=value can be discerned early in Snape. But was he initially fascinated by the Dark Arts because he valued power? Who knows. But he does seem to have learned a good deal about the Dark Arts parallel to his journey being and being a member of the oppressive and power-hungry Death Eaters. After Snape switched sides, Dumbledore lauded his skill at the Dark Arts, not defense against the Dark Arts. Snape was Dumbledore's go to man for Dark Arts related injuries, which seems to indicate that "normal" magic wasn't up to the task of countering it. Snape never seems to have risked trying to take out Voldemort, despite being in Voldemort's inner circle and having access to him, which seems to me to mean that he either thought he couldn't take out Voldemort, or that he didn't want to try to take out Voldemort. If the former, than Snape must have believed that Voldemort was powerful. We learn in DH that Snape was told that a piece of Voldemort's soul had attached itself to Harry, and that Voldemort could not die until Harry did. So I do think there is a good possibility that Snape thought that Voldemort was extremely powerful and extremely difficult to kill. Whether he would have felt relief because it could be accomplished after all is anybody's guess, along with any other speculated upon emotions, in my opinion.


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  #509  
Old August 9th, 2011, 1:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
There is no canon to support this. Snape didn't say that he believed that the Dark Arts were strong, he pointed out that they were ever changing and that they can never be defeated. That does not mean that Voldemort can never be defeated, but that as SIP said there will be another Dark Lord along sooner or later. Hermione even liken Snape's speech to Harry's to the DA, so that would imply that Harry had also fed into doubts that Voldemort could be defeated. But I don't think this is the case. IMO both speechs are about fighting and winning against the Dark Arts, and not under estimating them.
Thanks for the reminder of what Hermione said about Snape's speech. I had forgotten that. But I did recall that Ernie the Hufflepuff thought Snape's class was really good that day.

HBP
"Well," said Hermione, "I thought he sounded a bit like you."
"Like me?"
"Yes, when you were telling us what it's like to face Voldemort. You said it wasn't just memorizing a bunch of spells, you said it was just you and your brains and your guts - well, wasn't that what Snape was saying? That it really comes down to being brave and quick-thinking?"


I think Hermione wins at explaining Snape's speech better than I did.


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  #510  
Old August 9th, 2011, 11:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Snape never seems to have risked trying to take out Voldemort, despite being in Voldemort's inner circle and having access to him, which seems to me to mean that he either thought he couldn't take out Voldemort, or that he didn't want to try to take out Voldemort.
A bit of the former certainly. He wasnt foolish enough to try out in the open. Voldemort must have trumped Severus in knowledge about really fiendish spells and the like. Plus Voldy's willingness to let an AK loose whenever it suited him. Snape wasnt the sort of person to just try to take a pot shot at someone like Voldy. Also trying to do so "under the radar" by himself was not an option.


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  #511  
Old August 9th, 2011, 11:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
A bit of the former certainly. He wasnt foolish enough to try out in the open. Voldemort must have trumped Severus in knowledge about really fiendish spells and the like. Plus Voldy's willingness to let an AK loose whenever it suited him. Snape wasnt the sort of person to just try to take a pot shot at someone like Voldy. Also trying to do so "under the radar" by himself was not an option.
IMO his primary 'job' was protecting Harry Potter; taking himself out of the picture by attacking Voldemort would put Harry in jeopardy.


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  #512  
Old August 10th, 2011, 5:59 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
A bit of the former certainly. He wasnt foolish enough to try out in the open. Voldemort must have trumped Severus in knowledge about really fiendish spells and the like. Plus Voldy's willingness to let an AK loose whenever it suited him. Snape wasnt the sort of person to just try to take a pot shot at someone like Voldy. Also trying to do so "under the radar" by himself was not an option.
Yeah, I rather think Snape believed Voldemort to be powerful because Voldemort was powerful --and vicious. Plus Voldemort popped back from the dead, so Voldemort had some pretty good evidence on his side that he could cheat death. I think that would make most people think twice about attacking him.


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  #513  
Old August 10th, 2011, 2:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

What do you reckon Snape's Boggart would take the form of?? I think it would be Voldy, Himself, or lily or harry's dead body... what do you think?


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Old August 10th, 2011, 2:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Until he heard Dumbledore's message for Harry, I think Snape's boggart might be a dead Harry. After that, I think it could Voldemort killing Harry.


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  #515  
Old August 10th, 2011, 2:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by Severus4everus View Post
What do you reckon Snape's Boggart would take the form of?? I think it would be Voldy, Himself, or lily or harry's dead body... what do you think?
Any definitive answer is entirely speculative. However, I think we can make some educated guesses, based on what we know of Snape's character...

I don't think it would be Voldemort. Snape, imo, would not have been able to function as a spy if he had been that frightened of Voldemort.

Snape's biggest fear has already been realized... Lily is dead. And now his entire life is devoted to the protection of her son. So Harry's dead body seems like a good second guess - not to mention that Snape does have a rather intense reaction when Dumbledore tells him that Harry has to die.

However, I think it's possible that Snape doesn't have a boggart. The worst is already over. And after the worst happens, he doesn't seem to be afraid of much of anything.


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  #516  
Old August 10th, 2011, 2:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by Severus4everus View Post
What do you reckon Snape's Boggart would take the form of?? I think it would be Voldy, Himself, or lily or harry's dead body... what do you think?
perhaps it would be a Lily telling him how much she hates and despises him. Her dead body is also likely... although since that already happened it's probably not his worst fear.


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  #517  
Old August 10th, 2011, 3:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by MagicNiffler5 View Post
perhaps it would be a Lily telling him how much she hates and despises him. Her dead body is also likely... although since that already happened it's probably not his worst fear.
or maybe the boggart is of his dad!


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  #518  
Old August 10th, 2011, 3:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Guys, it would make for a more substantial discussion if you explained (perhaps with textual evidence) WHY you think X would be his boggart


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Old August 10th, 2011, 3:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

As far as a boggart goes, I can't really say there's enough information. But I can think of three particular moments and secrets which might lend themselves to "greatest fear" status.
  • First, the so-called Snape's Worst Memory. Obviously something he very much wished to avoid revealing, and his reaction to Harry's intrusion was pretty extreme. This doesn't mean it has to do with a specific fear, other than someone finding out about it, or perhaps the prospect of reliving it in some way, but it is obviously a trauma in his life that he guarded carefully.
  • Then, Lily's death itself, which having already happened isn't a fear anymore. However, there could certainly be ensuing fears that might affect him powerfully, e.g. fear of forgetting Lily, fear of Voldemort learning his true feelings, fear of growing attached to Harry, etc.
  • Finally his insistence that Dumbledore never tell anyone about his feelings for Lily. It seems unlikely that he would be so adamant that it be secret unless he also significantly feared the consequences of revelation.
I'm not suggesting these are boggart candidates, but I think we know a lot about some of the worst moments of Snape's life, so I'm just trying to compile ideas for what might have caused whatever he currently fears as of the books. I agree that in the context of his entire life, the worst fear he might have had is already come and gone, but there still would have to be something at a given moment that he feared more than anything else.



Last edited by canismajoris; August 10th, 2011 at 4:04 pm. Reason: put list in chronological order, doi
  #520  
Old August 10th, 2011, 3:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

I think his biggest fear is developing romantic feelings for someone.

He fell in love once, and Lily drifted away from him. He lost her, she married someone else, and partially due to his actions (which he felt guilt about) Lily died. He then spent years protecting a boy who reminds him of Lily having chose another man.

We can choose our actions, and we can re-direct our thoughts, but very seldom do we chose our feelings, and I believe Snape was someone who preferred being in control.

IMHO, his boggart would be something related to romantic love.


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