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The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan



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  #41  
Old August 22nd, 2009, 1:33 am
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Um, no that person isn't trying to get a rise out of people and lumping with Goodkind is IMO deserved

There's also no need to insult me although I do agree Jordans female characters are just plain awful


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  #42  
Old August 22nd, 2009, 2:27 am
Murphy  Male.gif Murphy is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Um, no that person isn't trying to get a rise out of people and lumping with Goodkind is IMO deserved
First, it is a bit obvious.. and second, Jordan and Goodkind are completely different. You must realise that..

Quote:
There's also no need to insult me
It was not intended as an insult. But I honestly don't believe you have put much consideration into both Jordan's and Tolkien's works. I don't deny that Jordan has been influenced by Tolkien.. and there is nothing wrong with that. It's simply influence, he hasn't came out and copy-and-pasted Tolkien's characters onto his own works. I honestly don't believe you could have read Jordan and come to this conclusion as it is not logical.

Jordan has taken alot from ancient mythologies, some of which he and Tolkien had in common. So you cannot take from the fact that Jordan and Tolkien could have been influenced independently from one another. Not to mention each had their own take on things.

Tolkien had the Nazgűl and Jordan has the Myrddraal. They have what, dark cloaks in common? Honestly tell me Myrddraal are simply copy-and-pasted Nazgűl then I will call you liar because this is simply not true.

Nor is The Creator a copy-and-pasted Eru Ilúvatar. For a start, The Dark One is The Creator's equal and Eru Ilúvatar follows the principals of the Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God (TAG) which among other things concludes God has no equal. My next point is hard to express... as I am unfamiliar with Eastern theology. But in Jordan's world I baisically see it as atheist, with an infinite and cylic existance which is its self god and The Creator and The Dark One are simply internal forces of this existance.

That probably sounds completely messed up, but it is the best way I can articulate it.

Regards,
M.


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  #43  
Old August 22nd, 2009, 3:31 am
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

You know I could keep arguing but we'll never agree and so let's just agree to disagree shall we?


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  #44  
Old August 24th, 2009, 1:37 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
What???? That's not someone personal bias and if you haven't read how can you know?...and all the rest
Well I did ask...oy.
If you stretch hard enough you can make every fantasy book track back to Tolkien's work.
Jordan's works are larger in breadth and scope and better detailed. He even created an earlier advanced technological age that far preceded what's written of now. An age that had shock lances, jo-cars, sho-wings and hoverflies, just to name a few examples. (And that's not to mention the well-detailed culture and society that pre-existed.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Oh, come on you mean you've never seen any of these people call themselves Tolkiens heirs? And I never said anything about 'inheriting mantles'
Name these authors that had the cajones to ever call themselves "Tolkien's heirs." I'd really like to know who they are. (The best authors have never had that level of hubris, except maybe Mckiernan.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
I also agree that Jordan just cannot write good female characters. I hate his women, they make me want to eat the paper the book is written on! But WoT will always have a special place for me, because it was the first fantasy series I ever really read. I would recommend it to anyone.
Why do you hate the female characters? Bear in mind that society is still currently a matriarchal one. Women rule, at least at first. That's why book 6 (Lord of Chaos) hit such a nerve at the ending.
Spoiler: show
Women never bowed to any man, until that ending,
"I said you would be on equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!
Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt."




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  #45  
Old August 24th, 2009, 1:43 am
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Well I did ask...oy.
If you stretch hard enough you can make every fantasy book track back to Tolkien's work.
Jordan's works are larger in breadth and scope and better detailed.

*Shoots Midnightsfire in the head*

Have you actually read Tolkien if so I would suggest you read it a little better and you still haven't said anything about the review or the points I made and I already said what I thought about people who base their stuff of Tolkien


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  #46  
Old August 24th, 2009, 3:40 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Have you actually read Tolkien if so I would suggest you read it a little better...
I've read enough Tolkien. His stuff tends to repeat itself after the Silmarillion. Just as well since that was published in 1977 long after his death. Indeed, every book after that takes a bit of effort to read.

Easier to go online

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
and you still haven't said anything about the review or the points I made
They're opinions. There's nothing to be said. There is no right or wrong, correct or incorrect. Just one person's perceptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
and I already said what I thought about people who base their stuff of Tolkien
You made claims of authors who called themselves "heirs of Tolkien." If you don't know their names then it is nothing more than a wild assertion with no validity. The only one who can legitimately make such a claim is Christopher Tolkien.


Hmm..Dragonmount does seem to be the pre-eminent site for Jordan fans.

From wikipedia:
Conception and writing:    


  
Jordan deliberately decided to move closer to the tone and style of JRR Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring and made the characters younger and less experienced. Once this decision had been made, writing proceeded much more easily and Jordan completed the second volume, The Great Hunt, at roughly the same time the first book was published.

Tom Doherty enjoyed The Eye of the World so much that he declared it would be the biggest fantasy series since Tolkien, and took the unprecedented steps of sending free review copies to every bookstore in the United States to generate interest. The combined hardcover and trade paperback run of the novel sold out of its initial 40,000-strong print run. Sales then doubled with the publication of the second novel just eight months later generating more interest in the first book.

Jordan wrote full-time at breakneck speed for the next several years until he completed the seventh volume, A Crown of Swords, at which point he slowed down, delivering a book every two years. Fans objected when he took some time off to expand a short story into a prequel novel called New Spring, so he decided to shelve his plans for additional prequels in favor of finishing off the last two volumes in the series. He rejected criticisms of the later volumes of the series slowing down in pace in order to concentrate on minor secondary characters at the expense of the main characters from the opening volumes, but acknowledged that his structure (where he showed a major scene from the prior book, Winter's Heart, from the perspective of the main characters that were not involved in the scene) for the tenth volume, Crossroads of Twilight, had not worked out as he had planned. Knife of Dreams, the eleventh volume, had a much more positive reception from critics and fans alike and Jordan announced the twelfth volume, which he had previously announced would have the working title A Memory of Light, would conclude the series.

Jordan had stated that the main sequence would conclude with the twelfth book, A Memory of Light. According to Forbes, Jordan had intended for it to be the final book "even if it reaches 2,000 pages."

Jordan was diagnosed with the fatal heart disease cardiac amyloidosis in December 2005, while he intended to finish at least A Memory of Light even if the "worse comes to worst," he made preparations in case he was not able to complete the book "I'm getting out notes, so if the worst actually happens, someone could finish A Memory of Light and have it end the way I want it to end."

With Jordan's death on 16 September 2007, the conclusion of the series was in question. On December 7 of that year the publisher Tor Books announced that fantasy author Brandon Sanderson was to finish A Memory of Light. Sanderson, a long time fan of the series, was chosen by Jordan's widow Harriet McDougal partly because she liked Sanderson's novels and partly because of a eulogy he had written for Jordan.

On 30 March 2009 Tor Books announced that the A Memory of Light would be split into three volumes, the first of which, The Gathering Storm, is to be released on October 27, 2009.
  




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  #47  
Old August 24th, 2009, 4:36 pm
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

As you said those are peoples 'thoughts and opinions' (And you're just throwing stuff out because you can't refute me)

Tolkiens is repetetive? What? I would suggest you actually pay a little closer attention because that statement right there tells me that you haven't actually read the book you're just parroting someone else and I think the wild assertion thing just came to bite you

Tolkiens characters were real and believable his hero was flawed and he failed Jordans characters aren't characters they're hats he can pull anything out off (And of course he comes out and says he's ripping him off). Jordans stuff is also confusingly and poorly written.

Now I have had enough of this debate I dislike Jordans stuff I've said what I think about it but you're not going to listen so I vote we agree to disagree


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  #48  
Old August 24th, 2009, 5:29 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

I'm still waiting to hear some subtance on these self-proclaimed "heirs of Tolkien.

..


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  #49  
Old August 24th, 2009, 5:45 pm
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

So you're going to ignore my post?

Look on Limyaaels LJ and look for Tolkien cliches


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  #50  
Old August 31st, 2009, 11:29 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
So you're going to ignore my post?

Look on Limyaaels LJ and look for Tolkien cliches
Again, who are these authors?

I mean, really, you have yet to name one. Can you?



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  #51  
Old August 31st, 2009, 11:55 pm
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Have you looked on Limyaael? Besides you just posted a quote from Jordan where he basically admits it


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  #52  
Old September 1st, 2009, 12:23 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Have you looked on Limyaael? Besides you just posted a quote from Jordan where he basically admits it
Oh you mean this:
Jordan deliberately decided to move closer to the tone and style of JRR Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring and made the characters younger and less experienced. Once this decision had been made, writing proceeded much more easily and Jordan completed the second volume, The Great Hunt, at roughly the same time the first book was published.


I'm still looking for the part where he said "I am Tolkien's heir."

Heck, I'm still waiting for you to drop any name that makes such a claim.
We have plenty of authors who claim to have been inspired by Tolkien. But none have made such a claim as you stated.
You've claimed differently but have still to back up such a claim.
Wouldn't it be easier to admit that you might have erred?


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  #53  
Old September 3rd, 2009, 8:02 pm
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Jordan deliberately decided to move closer to the tone and style of JRR Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring

Translation: I'm Tolkiens Heir. Besides you know what I mean't when I said that only you had to go off in the wild blue yonder and twist and turn it around to make me look bad.

Why don't you read Limyaael or are you afraid she would rip apart your beloved unoriginal Robert Jordan?


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  #54  
Old September 4th, 2009, 2:56 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Jordan deliberately decided to move closer to the tone and style of JRR Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring
Translation: I'm Tolkiens Heir.
That's not how the word "heir" is defined:
Heir
A person who is entitled by law or by the terms of a will to inherit the estate of another
- inheritor, heritor
A person who inherits some title or office
- successor

"A" does not equal "C."

So where does Jordan actually use the word "heir?" Or even the word "successor," which would at least fit in with the definition. For that matter, you still haven't named any author that makes such a claim.
And being inspired or even "moving closer to Tolkien's style" hardly equates to Jordan saying "I am Tolkien's heir." (Although I can name a lot of fantasy authors who have named Tolkien as an inspiration. Like all of them. )

Perhaps the English language isn't your forte and you're simply confusing the words? It happens.

More personal opinions and they both mention Tolkien:

Abby Goldsmith from Science-fiction and Fantasy World
Snippet:    


  
There are certainly some elements in this unique series which have sparked legitimate criticism. In The Eye of the World, the first volume, the influence of J.R.R. Tolkien is undeniable. We are introduced to an isolated farming village centered around a Brandywine Inn. The main protagonist’s friends are named Mat, Perrin, and Egwene, which sound rather like Meri, Pippin, and Eowyn. The Trollocs speak like Orcs. And yes, those ogiers are about as hasty and formidable as Ents.
A line may be drawn between honorary tribute and true copying. By the second volume, these Tolkien-esque elements all but disappear, and we begin to realize that Randland is not Middle Earth by any stretch of the imagination. Instead of remaining innocent, the protagonists grow powerful and cynical. Instead of facing an enemy with a single agenda, the enemies multiply, and each has a different set of priorities. Magical abilities are exclusively the province of gifted human beings. Not a single elf, dwarf, balrog, or wizard is ever encountered. Those original hobbit-like elements, in fact, seem to have been used intentionally by the author; altered for his purposes, but deliberately left recognizable to any Tolkien fan... much like those references Stephen King makes to our real world in his Dark Tower series. If The Wheel of Time ever becomes a timeless classic- or grows to dominate the genre of fantasy literature- then Jordan has ensured that the man who paved the way will never be forgotten.
  



An obituary
Snippet:    


  The overwhelming presence of J.R.R. Tolkien blighted the careers of many writers who could not escape his shadow. It did not blight the career of James Rigney Jnr who spent the last decades of his life creating, in the 12-volume "Wheel of Time" sequence of epic fantasy novels, a work deeply evocative of Tolkien's; because Rigney, who wrote fantasy as Robert Jordan, did it right.
The problem with imitating Tolkien is that it is a full-time job. His central epic, The Lord of the Rings, resounds throughout with a sense that what is being told here is only the tip of the iceberg; but the only way to convey that sense fully is to have also created the iceberg beneath. Tolkien spent almost his entire life secreting that iceberg; Jordan – Rigney was universally recognised under that pen-name – shaped most of his career around a similar enterprise. The end result had little of the mesmerising melancholia or mythic glamour of Tolkien; but the "Wheel of Time" is so solidly, painstakingly and honestly constructed that it has become deeply addictive for its millions of readers.
The "Wheel of Time" is immensely complex on the surface, though every major event was pre-planned before a word was published, and Jordan once claimed that, if published, his notes and indices would fill thousands of pages. These surface complexities can be reduced to a fairly simple underlying conceit. After completing his task, the Creator of the world is forced to lock his antithesis, the Dark One, into an impenetrable "otherworld", which is duly penetrated, letting the taint of evil thrust humankind into history. The resulting war between good and evil governs the 10,000 pages of the sequence, which remains not quite complete.

  



*shrugs* Fantasy authors that do well are almost always invariably compared to Tolkien.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Besides you know what I mean't when I said that only you had to go off in the wild blue yonder and twist and turn it around to make me look bad.
Make you look bad?

With your leaps and stretches in logic I'd have to say that you're accomplishing that all by yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil View Post
Why don't you read Limyaael or are you afraid she would rip apart your beloved unoriginal Robert Jordan?
I read a stranger's personal blogs when I'm paid to.
.


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  #55  
Old September 4th, 2009, 5:28 pm
Korhil  Male.gif Korhil is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

You know what Mid I've had enough you wont listen and so I will leave and you beloved unoriginal Jordan to yourself

BTW Authors ripping off Tolkien should be a shooting offense and if it where only a few authors would still be alive (Which IMO wouldn't be such a bad thing)


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  #56  
Old September 12th, 2009, 4:24 am
gibsonxplorer  Undisclosed.gif gibsonxplorer is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

I got to book nine, then the massive amounts of characters and plots and subplots got to me, and the series just started to really drag on.


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  #57  
Old October 9th, 2009, 5:57 am
redwall_hp  Male.gif redwall_hp is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

Post-HP I've become a serious hardcore fantasy fan, and WoT is one of my favorite series. I just finished Knife of Dreams recently, and am eagerly awaiting the upcoming sequel, The Gathering Storm. The series strikes me as quite unique, and many-layered. The first book borrows a bit from Tolkien, but after that it has very little similarity. There is a lot of symbolism, which is always a plus, and the way the "magic" works is unorthodox, in a good way. It's not for people into "light reading" though; if you're not really into long, complex fantasy, it's not for you.

Also, if you don't mind a shameless plug, Tor is giving away three copies of The Eye of the World and Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn over at FantasyFolder.com. (Sanderson is the fantasy novelist picked to finish the series in Jordan's absence, based off his notes.)


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  #58  
Old November 4th, 2009, 7:47 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

I've just finished reading The Gathering Storm and I enjoyed it a lot. Lot of exciting events happened in the books and it was well worth the wait IMO. Especially loved the ending. Can't wait for the final two books.


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  #59  
Old March 17th, 2010, 11:25 pm
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

I was thinking that instead of rereading all the books before reading The Gathering Storm, I could read the summary on the WoT Encyclopedia, but after 19 chapter summaries from The Eye of the World, I decided it didn't work. Yes, my memory is refreshed, and they also have these handy notes where they tell about references to other books and stuff, but it just isn't the same at all. I miss the characters, and the excitement of the story! So, when I've finished the Terry Pratchett books I'm reading now, I'll start on The Eye of the World. Most people would say I've gone completely mad, reading both The Wheel of Time series and various Tolkien books at the same time.

Also, yesterday I saw on Dragonmount that Tor is making new cover illustrations for the eBooks. I really like some of them, so I thought I'd post it here, and perhaps hear other WoT fans thoughts on them. Here on Dragonmount is where I found them, that's the one that was released in March (each month they release a new cover, if I understood correctly). I really like it, but my favourite so far is probably this one. Tor has done a feature on each cover, if you scroll down the page I linked to on Dragonmount, you'll find links to them. I found it very interesting to watch the video of the making of the Lord of Chaos cover (which is also one of my favourite of the books), which can be found in Tors feature.


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  #60  
Old March 30th, 2010, 10:07 pm
pigtheadhdowl  Female.gif pigtheadhdowl is offline
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Re: The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

oh wow, i just started the series. well, im actually in the middle of the fourth one. mat and rand are in rhuedain, however you spell that, and its cool. so yeah. its cool. and i hate the cover art.


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