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  #101  
Old July 29th, 2008, 8:11 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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What I don't understand is why religion cannot be confident of itself to keep out of the way of scientific research, because if science is wrong, then its experiments will prove religion correct. By interfering, I feel religion only makes itself look a lot more unsure of itself and its concepts, not to mention its faith IMO.
The phrase "science is wrong" you seem to imply that science has already decided that there is no god. Science has not yet stated "There is no God", we just don't know yet through scientific method the origin of the universe and therefore a scientific person is likely to be skeptical of religious conclusions. Even well-publicised atheists like Richard Dawkins will say that "there is almost certainly no god", the key word being "almost".

Also, I'm not entirely sure I agree with your point about the way that the rules or the relgious text or the way they are interpreted can be changed. A religious believer must either believe in their faith or not.


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  #102  
Old July 31st, 2008, 4:07 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Rules that govern out lives, our morals, our rights and wrongs as determined by religion.
You are not answering the question, imho. What rules specifically from the bible (or any other religious text for that matter) do you mean? What rules from te bible can just e "cut out" without cutting out God?

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
God IMO is completely divorced from this.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand this. Religion is all about livin a good, sin-free existence because that is what God wants for his children. How can you take God out of that equation and still have religion?


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  #103  
Old August 5th, 2008, 8:30 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron
You are not answering the question, imho. What rules specifically from the bible (or any other religious text for that matter) do you mean? What rules from te bible can just e "cut out" without cutting out God?
Well I don't know much about the Bible, but I can think of a hundred things that can be removed from my religion.

Because religion does not adapt to the mordern world, every time I do something which my text says I should not, I sin. Which means I take a step away from God.

There are many rituals that a person is expected to follow and I presume this holds good for Christians (like fasting days, etc) and we have them in our religion too. Every time I don't follow, I sin. Every time someone from my caste (I am a vegetarian) eats eggs (which is very much non-vegetarian BTW), let alone other things, he has committed the most heinous crime of killing another being. Every time I don't read the prescribed scriptures meant for women, I sin. Every time I read my scriptures, which women are not allowed to recite, learn, and understand I sin very badly? And by doing all this, I sin and move away from GOD.

If my religion and rules that govern it do not adapt to the changing world I am very much afraid that most of those in my religion are only fit for pathetic lives in our next birth, because for us sin continues even after death and into the next life.

For we don't have the Heaven and Hell theory as in Christianity, for us it is a little different; we also have the cause and effect system, so we have a hundred thousand rules telling us the effect of every action, right and wrong.

I presume Christians have many rules that are not followed anymore as well, for which a person could very well land in Hell IMO.

But is God pleased with all this, is HE the Supreme Being a decider, as a powerful spirit sitting somewhere up there and dishing out rewards and punishments, because it is HIS world where HIS law is supreme?

Then what we see in the world today is all because of HIM? If it is He who is the decider, who had created this world, then it is He who has to accept responsibility for all that there is in this world today including the suffering, problems, which HE has not so far solved.

If God is a man/woman or a powerful being with so much power at his disposal, then why has he not instilled belief in everyone?

Why does He send His children, who He thinks are misguided and who have made mistakes to Hell? Why is there no help for those souls who apparently need it the most?

Personally, I am still seeking and searching for a God and my beliefs perhaps are just not there, perhaps I am not a believer in the true sense of the word, but I sincerely feel that God is a concept, a pure concept of everything I consider holy and sacred. And that for me could be anything which lifts me from the mundane to the sublime, personal values and high ideals that enrich me and help me to change everyday, every minute for the better. Better than what I was.

Rules, however, are made and enforced so that I adhere to a particular system and work my way through it, whether I believe those rules or not. I feel such rules only constrict and donít allow for growth. And so I believe them also to be seperate from God.

There are so many rules that can be changed and adapted for modern living without changing basic concepts and pure spirituality. And any religion that does not do it, will surely IMO fade away with time.

Quote:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand this. Religion is all about livin a good, sin-free existence because that is what God wants for his children. How can you take God out of that equation and still have religion?
Correct. This is the crux of the problem. What is good? What is sin?

Which God's sin and good should everyone follow? Which God is right? The one who says there is no rebirth or the one who says there is? Which God is right? The one who says eating meat is okay or the one who says eating meat is a sin?

These are rules to be followed. So are virtues and values. For what my religion considers a virtue is not so according to say Christianity or Islam or Buddhism. So IMO the concept of sin, truth, values, morality and virtues are themselves so different from religion to religion. So who's right and who's wrong?

Is God deciding all this? All our Gods? Then which one is supreme?

The moment this question is asked, war begins.

I think God is a concept beyond the mind. I may be wrong, of course, but I really think organised religion and their rules really, have no connection with God.

Quote:
(I'm thinking where the bible says that a woman shall not cut her hair) Most people take an abstract view of that but how do you tell a woman who believes the literal word that she can/should not.
Sure she can believe that if she wants to, and that is her faith, which will lead her to God for she so believes and has immense faith, but that God can also be realised if the woman does not believe that rule and cuts her hair can He not? So if a woman can get by with believing and by not believing, then God can be attained by both means can He not? Then why call those who don't believe in this rule as sinners?

Today no priest will say a woman cutting her hair is a sinner, for woman priests and nuns too cut their hair. So that is a rule amended for the age we live in. So God is divorced from a woman cutting her hair or growing it.

That a woman chooses to believe is fine, but I feel she should not be called sinner because she does not believe.

God is different from this rule and many rules like this, was what I meant.

Quote:
posted by OverdoseThe phrase "science is wrong" you seem to imply that science has already decided that there is no god.
I think I have not been clear. I said IF science is wrong and that implies after experiments have been conducted.


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  #104  
Old November 1st, 2008, 11:00 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

1. Based off of your religious beliefs, do you think that some forms of scientific research should be restricted?

Yes..I do believe that science shoudnt get out-of-hand in the name of research. I dont know about cloning or stem cell research though..does it have a clear purpose? If research has a purpose and yields something useful to the society, then I'd say that science can go on, unrestricted. But when that is not the case I think its better to adhere to traditions based on religion.

2. What impact has religion had on scientific advances? Has organized religion held up the progress of scientific advancement?

My religion has never had an adverse impact on science, infact it has always aided it IMO. Scientific advancement had gone on and religion has been a mute spectator, sometimes raising a cry when felt necessary. To me, Religion helps understand science, it helps appreciate science and vice-versa and thats how I'd always like it to be.

3. What do you think the relationship between religion and science should be?

I think there should be a healthy relationship. Science should know that all of its research has limits and religion, in the name of some old superstition shouldnt pose hurdles of any sort to Science. A symbiotic relationship, if possible, would be splendid.

Thats all I ask, really.


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  #105  
Old November 1st, 2008, 12:20 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
I dont know about cloning or stem cell research though..does it have a clear purpose?
There are dozens of devastating diseases that could be cured by stem cells.


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  #106  
Old November 1st, 2008, 12:24 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
There are dozens of devastating diseases that could be cured by stem cells.
If that is always the case then, I'd go by what I'd said before

Quote:
If research has a purpose and yields something useful to the society, then I'd say that science can go on, unrestricted. But when that is not the case I think its better to adhere to traditions based on religion.


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  #107  
Old November 1st, 2008, 1:05 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

That's great!


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  #108  
Old November 1st, 2008, 1:36 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Thank you, CBW


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  #109  
Old November 1st, 2008, 2:38 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

The problem is that no one has figured out to successfully use stem cells to cure those diseases. Gene therapy still isn't feasible. It's not impossible or improbable, but they don't have the right answer yet.


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  #110  
Old November 6th, 2008, 1:25 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
[b]If research has a purpose and yields something useful to the society, then I'd say that science can go on, unrestricted.
Some of science's greatest advances came from research with no clear purpose or, as in the case of penicillin, by accident while researching something else.


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  #111  
Old November 6th, 2008, 2:23 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I'm sorry, I just don't understand this. Religion is all about livin a good, sin-free existence because that is what God wants for his children. How can you take God out of that equation and still have religion?
Unfortunately religion revolves around the idea of God and the only real reason you should be good is so that you don't end up in hell and that you win God's favor. Shouldn't people do good deeds and be good just for that and not because the creator of the Universe says so? I think religion is good in that it teaches morals and beliefs but I also think that people could think of it differently

About Science and Religion, isn't it that the earliest scientists justified science in that they were exploring the world God created? I personally respect Christianity as a religion a lot because of how long standing it can be. Not many people believe in Greek gods anymore really because science easily disproves it, but that isn't completely the case with Christianity and the other religions revolving around a single God.


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  #112  
Old June 25th, 2009, 2:07 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

1. Based off of your religious beliefs, do you think that some forms of scientific research should be restricted?
I personally have no religion, as I believe anything could be. I believe that there could be a God, there could be multiple Gods, or there could be nothing. We could be on our own. However, I definitely understand where people are coming from when they believe that researchers should leave God's work alone. However, in rebuttal to that opinion, if there is a God, and he did not want specific areas researched, why would he give us curiosity in these areas? If God really is all-powerful, he could easily stop scientists from researching these subjects. However, if a certain religion says that God is not all-powerful, would he not still have created the universe and just not have given people curiosity in the areas he did not want them looking into? Also there is the great controversy of Creationism versus Evolutionism. These could go hand in hand, with God creating some creatures and having them evolve into other creatures. Or it could be something entirely different. Evolutionism is merely a theory, after all.

2. What impact has religion had on scientific advances? Has organized religion held up the progress of scientific advancement?
Many scientific discoveries were made in the name of God, and had it not been for religion, some of the greatest discoveries of our time would never have been made. Though much innovation would still have been had it not been for religion, or some would have happened at another time, religion has indeed affected and aided scientific advancement.

3. What do you think the relationship between religion and science should be?
I believe that the relationship between science and religion depends entirely upon the religion in question and those practicing it. However, I believe that neither should hold the other back or negatively affect it in any way, as they can easily coexist or even aid each other.


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  #113  
Old June 25th, 2009, 4:18 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by browneyedkat View Post
Evolutionism is merely a theory, after all.
In science, a theory is not a "mere" thing. The definition of "theory" that is used by science is not the same as the colloquial understanding of the word "theory". A scientific theory is something that has held up to so many tests and observations that it's accepted as true.

The definition of a scientific theory used by the US National Academy of Sciences is "A plausible or scientifically acceptable, well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena and predict the characteristics of as yet unobserved phenomena."

They also explain it more simply as "a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence".


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  #114  
Old June 25th, 2009, 4:49 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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In science, a theory is not a "mere" thing. The definition of "theory" that is used by science is not the same as the colloquial understanding of the word "theory". A scientific theory is something that has held up to so many tests and observations that it's accepted as true.
Well, perhaps accepted as true, however that does not mean it really is true. There are other theories that explain the same thing evolutionism does. Just because something is widely acknowledged as true does not mean it is true.


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  #115  
Old June 25th, 2009, 12:38 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by browneyedkat
Well, perhaps accepted as true, however that does not mean it really is true. There are other theories that explain the same thing evolutionism does. Just because something is widely acknowledged as true does not mean it is true.
The reason that they are not widely accepted as true though is that they have undergone all the same tests as evolution and been found wanting. Obviously if a new idea became more plausible than evolution through the scientific method then it would be deemed true. However, given the evidence for evolution this is unlikely to be a refutation at least of natural selection and more of a genetic point.
Point is that the default position from a scientific hypothesis is skepticism.


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  #116  
Old June 26th, 2009, 4:51 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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The reason that they are not widely accepted as true though is that they have undergone all the same tests as evolution and been found wanting. Obviously if a new idea became more plausible than evolution through the scientific method then it would be deemed true. However, given the evidence for evolution this is unlikely to be a refutation at least of natural selection and more of a genetic point.
Point is that the default position from a scientific hypothesis is skepticism.
But there is so much more to discover, just because the evidence so far found points to evolutionism being the truth does not mean something will not be discovered that completely eradicates all thought of Evolutionism. It is good to keep an open mind.
Also, many would argue that Evolutionism cannot be true if Creationism is true, and many, many people believe fully in Creationism. So Evolutionism is not entirely acknowledged as the truth.


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  #117  
Old June 26th, 2009, 5:19 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by browneyedkat View Post
But there is so much more to discover, just because the evidence so far found points to evolutionism being the truth does not mean something will not be discovered that completely eradicates all thought of Evolutionism. It is good to keep an open mind.
Also, many would argue that Evolutionism cannot be true if Creationism is true, and many, many people believe fully in Creationism. So Evolutionism is not entirely acknowledged as the truth.
You're technically right in saying something could come along and show that evolution is wrong, but then again, another theory could come along and completely shatter the theory of gravitation. The amount of evidence that supports evolution is so outstanding that in common English it's basically what we would call a fact; it's like the heliocentric model of the Solar System, which is seen as fact. For something to come along and contradict evolution, it would need a ridiculous amount of evidence to back it up in order to be taken into consideration. Creationism, on the other hand, has absolutely no evidence to back it up, and it isn't science, it's faith.


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  #118  
Old June 26th, 2009, 6:01 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by browneyedkat View Post
Well, perhaps accepted as true, however that does not mean it really is true. There are other theories that explain the same thing evolutionism does. Just because something is widely acknowledged as true does not mean it is true.
But they need testing and proof to be accepted. There is nothing but conjecture and faith for other ideas (they are not really theory since there is no testing or proof).


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Old July 3rd, 2009, 9:19 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

I'm sick of religion. Stay out of science. Stay out of politics. Keep Jesus in the church where he belongs. Go away.


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Old July 4th, 2009, 12:46 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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I'm sick of religion. Stay out of science. Stay out of politics. Keep Jesus in the church where he belongs. Go away.
I am basically completely atheist, but Jesus really was an amazing historic figure. He was just one man, and he managed to practically single handedly change the world with his ideas. While past religions did have ideas about morals and right and wrong, whatever the church did after Jesus wasn't really his fault. IMHO, the Church is just a political body that governs believers, and as with most or even all bodies with power, given time, they tend to become corrupt. I would much rather Jesus come out of the Church.

I'm not trying to make generalizations about believers but i find it hilarious how random people on stuff like comments for youtube videos or aol articles say things like "Turn to Jesus as your savior to not go to hell" in something like an article about weight loss

Quote:
You're technically right in saying something could come along and show that evolution is wrong, but then again, another theory could come along and completely shatter the theory of gravitation. The amount of evidence that supports evolution is so outstanding that in common English it's basically what we would call a fact; it's like the heliocentric model of the Solar System, which is seen as fact. For something to come along and contradict evolution, it would need a ridiculous amount of evidence to back it up in order to be taken into consideration. Creationism, on the other hand, has absolutely no evidence to back it up, and it isn't science, it's faith.
Actually, didn't einstein prove Newton's theory of gravity wrong? Since Theory of Relativity talks about objects curving space and pushing things toward them rather than pulling.

I think that there are two flaws in Creationism, neither of which that disprove the existence of a God, just that if Bible is God's word, humans did some serious misprinting or it can't be taken as complete fact from a scientific standpoint. Creationism's problems are that it makes Earth too young and it says that all living organisms today were created at the beginning, when in fact we constantly see new species evolve from old species


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