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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



View Poll Results: How do you think Dumbledore and Snape viewed their relationship?
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  #1141  
Old August 20th, 2012, 9:01 pm
Verena  Undisclosed.gif Verena is offline
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?

I am very pleased to read this question because sometimes reading some sentences I wondered if Snape was jealous of the relationship between Harry and Dumbledore. So I think ... yes! In a way, yes!


9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?

Definitely! I thought immediately when I read the name of Harry’s second son. I believe that Snape and Dumbledore have some things in common, that connect each other and perhaps also Harry thought that. After all, both have fought Voldemort, but, above all, both of them wanted to save Harry. Perhaps Harry’s salvation had become even more important than defeating Voldemort. Snape’s indignation towards Dumbledore (when he reveals to Snape that Harry must to die) has great significance.
I think that Harry would have to call also them with the resurrection stone. The scene in the forest was incomplete without Dumbledore and Snape. Harry needed people which give him courage and who better of the bravest man he has ever knew and the only one Voldemort ever feared? Harry gave his son their names and this is a very important thing, because a son is very important. And then, the names of the other two children of who they are? His mother and his father. Calling his children as Dumbledore, Snape and his parents is as if Harry had wanted to form his family with them.



Last edited by Verena; August 20th, 2012 at 10:44 pm.
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  #1142  
Old April 28th, 2014, 4:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

IMHO I think that JKR was very heavy handed when making Harry name his child after Snape. I think that was a blatant way to to get people to believe Sanpe was a god guy because Harry believed it. And Harry only believed it because Snape loved Lily. Snape would not have been flattered by it.

Was Snape jealous of Harry and Dumbledore? That is a tough question. He was obvipusly capable of jealousy but everything about Snape's feelings for Harry were directly influenced by James. He protected Harry, for Lily, but he didn't really want to. He still had to be influenced by Dumbledore to do the right thing. I think that he was still mad that, even dead, James had friends who were loyal to his memory. Harry was so mixed up with Snape's hatred for James that, to him, people were still giving James a free pass when they showed any sort of compassion for Harry. I also think that Snape had his own issues with Dumbledore. Perhaps Dumbledore gained some of Snape's respect, but he didn't show it very well. He balked alot of Dumbledore's requests even if eventually he followed through(the tower), deliberately sabotaged others (occulmency lessons), took actions that put Dumbledore in bad predicaments (saving Draco)...etc etc IMHO he could have struck out on his own to try to take down Voldemort (he could totally have snaked Voldemort into taking him back). He did not have to follow Dumbledore's lead..but following Dumbledore got him out of Azkaban and gave him a relatively cushy life at Hogwarts. It also was well known that Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort ever feared so it was a strategic alliance more than a friendshi[ on Snape's part, whatever fondness Dumbldore might have felt for him.


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  #1143  
Old April 29th, 2014, 10:27 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
IMHO I think that JKR was very heavy handed when making Harry name his child after Snape. I think that was a blatant way to to get people to believe Sanpe was a god guy because Harry believed it. And Harry only believed it because Snape loved Lily. Snape would not have been flattered by it.
Yeah,I can easily imagine how horrified Snape would be!

I think we should remember, though we had no time to process the Albus Severus business as we read the epilogue in Harry's lifetime he had had 8 years to figure out Snape. What's more interesting to me is Ginny's going along with it after all she'd gone through during the year under Headmaster Snape.

To keep this on topic, I voted that Albus and Severus were collaborators.


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  #1144  
Old April 30th, 2014, 6:12 pm
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
IMHO I think that JKR was very heavy handed when making Harry name his child after Snape. I think that was a blatant way to to get people to believe Sanpe was a god guy because Harry believed it. And Harry only believed it because Snape loved Lily. Snape would not have been flattered by it.
No, certainly not. I think it was the last thing he could wish.

Quote:
He balked alot of Dumbledore's requests even if eventually he followed through(the tower)
Should he happily accept Dumbledore's murder?

Quote:
deliberately sabotaged others (occulmency lessons),
No. Harry ruined it by his thoughtless nosiness.

Quote:
took actions that put Dumbledore in bad predicaments (saving Draco)...
As teacher and Head of the House, you really expect him to watch Draco dying and to do nothing? And what about his Unbrealkable Vow?

Quote:
IMHO he could have struck out on his own to try to take down Voldemort
Pity he didn't and didn't succeed. Although it would be rather strange after seven books of Harry Potter's story to discover that Snape was the real hero...


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  #1145  
Old May 1st, 2014, 2:11 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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No, certainly not. I think it was the last thing he could wish.



Should he happily accept Dumbledore's murder?

Actually Draco had made several attempts on Dumbledore's life which Dumbledore escaped, unscathed, without Snape's aid. The tower was Dumbledore's way of saving Snape which he wouldn't have had to do if Snape hadn't have made that UV.



No. Harry ruined it by his thoughtless nosiness.

Dumbledore clearly states otherwise. "I trust Severus Snape, but I forgot -- another old man's mistake --- that some wounds run too deep for healing... I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father. I was wrong."

Harry was always going to fail with Snape. Potions, occlumency, whatever Snape tried to teach Harry Harry would percieve Snape's disdain and react accordingly. i.e get defensive and angry. It's worth noting that Harry was able to use Snape's own spells when it was absent of Snape's emotional ties.


As teacher and Head of the House, you really expect him to watch Draco dying and to do nothing? And what about his Unbreakable Vow?

How many people has Snape watched die in order to appear as Voldemort's loyal servant? How many students did he allow to be tortured for the same reason? What makes Draco so special? The UV? The UV is what ultimately lead to Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him. Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice what little time he had remaining in life to a)save Draco b)preserve Snape's cover with Voldemort and c)save Snape's own life regarding the the UV...and that's after all the other sacrifices for and trust placed in Snape in the first place. Where as Snape does what he wants on a whim and whines like 2 year old when Dumbledore asks something uncomfortable of him.


Pity he didn't and didn't succeed. Although it would be rather strange after seven books of Harry Potter's story to discover that Snape was the real hero...
Voldemort was the one who chose who would be his downfall....


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  #1146  
Old May 4th, 2014, 7:57 pm
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

About the tower: I sincerely think that "saving Snape" was the very last thing Dumbledore wanted with his suicide by Snape's hands. (Above all, because we don't really know if Snape revealed him his UV). I understand he wanted Snape to be the master of Elder wand. Which, by the way, contributed directly to Snape's death, so didn't save him at all. Anyway, I would think very lowly of Snape if he didn't resist at the idea of killing Albus.

About Draco: Snape says clearly he watched deaths of "those he wasn't able to save". Well, he was able to save Draco, so he did it. Maybe Draco isn't that special, but you know, it was saving a life. That's exactly what a hero does.

Third: The Occlumency lessons stopped after Harry had watched Snape's memories in the Pensieve. It was his fault, not Snape's. A 15-year-old should be able to respect someone's privacy.


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  #1147  
Old May 8th, 2014, 4:20 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
About the tower: I sincerely think that "saving Snape" was the very last thing Dumbledore wanted with his suicide by Snape's hands. (Above all, because we don't really know if Snape revealed him his UV).
We may not have read it in black and white, but it seems immensely likely to me in view of the evidence available.

First, Snape has little reason to hide this from Dumbledore. At the time he takes the Vow, he has already promised to Dumbledore that he will perform the very task Narcissa asks him to perform, and under circumstances very similar to those he has discussed with Dumbledore (that is, instead of letting Draco do it).

And, Harry recounts to Dumbledore all that he overheard (during HBP's Christmas party of Slughorn) between Snape and Draco - specifically, that Snape has claimed, to Draco, to have taken an Unbreakable Vow to protect him. Dumbledore is not surprised by this, and comments that he knows more about it than Harry.

But Dumbledore was quite possibly already thinking ahead to the Elder Wand when he made the request of Snape initially, that I certainly find likely.

Finally, though - I am not convinced Dumbledore believed, as he died, that he was making Snape the Master of the Elder Wand. Dumbledore had already been defeated by Draco in the scene, and he surely knows that is sufficient - it is what he must have done himself (somehow) to Grindelwald.


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  #1148  
Old May 8th, 2014, 11:28 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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But Dumbledore was quite possibly already thinking ahead to the Elder Wand when he made the request of Snape initially, that I certainly find likely.
I imagine that the Elder Wand was Dumbledore's main consideration when he made the request to Snape.


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  #1149  
Old May 18th, 2014, 7:00 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Third: The Occlumency lessons stopped after Harry had watched Snape's memories in the Pensieve. It was his fault, not Snape's. A 15-year-old should be able to respect someone's privacy.
I disagree. Snape is a grown man, a teacher, and has pledged to Dumbledore to work to defeat Voldemort and help protect Harry in Lily's memory. Harry is, as you say, 15 years old and there is great animosity between them (from both sides). Snape should have not left Dumbledore's pensieve out in the open just prior to Harry's arrival for occlumency lessons in his own office. Snape should have known that Harry would be immediately suspicious of why the pensieve was there...he could have put it in a cabinet out of sight, or cast a spell to camoflauge it, but he did not. It's almost as though he is daring Harry to take a look. Also, in checking OOTP, chapter "Occlumency", Snape also is seen replacing his memories from the pensieve back into his head, again before Harry leaves Snape's office, and Snape says something to Harry that makes him glance back. Snape was extremely non-chalant about the fact he was removing memories. He took no precautions whatsoever to keep the process private.

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Finally, though - I am not convinced Dumbledore believed, as he died, that he was making Snape the Master of the Elder Wand. Dumbledore had already been defeated by Draco in the scene, and he surely knows that is sufficient - it is what he must have done himself (somehow) to Grindelwald.
I agree that Dumbledore knew that Draco's action made him the new owner of the Elder Wand rather than Snape (and he says as much indirectly in King's Cross). However, as far as Dumbldore's defeat of Grindelwald, that was a full-on duel, not at all similar to Draco's luckily timed Expelliarmus on the Tower, although as you say it was sufficient under the circumstances.


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  #1150  
Old May 19th, 2014, 6:30 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster
Third: The Occlumency lessons stopped after Harry had watched Snape's memories in the Pensieve. It was his fault, not Snape's. A 15-year-old should be able to respect someone's privacy.
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I disagree. Snape is a grown man, a teacher, and has pledged to Dumbledore to work to defeat Voldemort and help protect Harry in Lily's memory. Harry is, as you say, 15 years old and there is great animosity between them (from both sides). Snape should have not left Dumbledore's pensieve out in the open just prior to Harry's arrival for occlumency lessons in his own office. Snape should have known that Harry would be immediately suspicious of why the pensieve was there...he could have put it in a cabinet out of sight, or cast a spell to camoflauge it, but he did not. It's almost as though he is daring Harry to take a look.
I would say that the burden more appropriately falls on Snape to be the bigger person and carry on the lessons, since he was a grown man and training Harry in Occlumency was important not just for Harry's safety, but for the mission that Snape had vowed to carry out. It's not like Occlumency lessons were a privilege for Harry, like some standard extra curricular activity.

Having said that, Snape leaving out the Pensieve doesn't excuse Harry's inappropriate action in peaking into it. Even if Snape was trying to tempt him, Harry had free will and was capable of making his own decisions, so Harry was ultimately responsible for looking into that Pensieve.

Also, I don't think Snape was at all daring Harry to look in the Pensieve by leaving it out, because when Snape left, Snape seemed rather in a rush to go on and rescue Montague from the toilet and investigate what happened with that. I think Snape just got distracted, and wasn't as cautious with the Pensieve as would have been best, because of that. It's not like Snape is perfect. Also, Snape had left the Pensieve in a similar manner (when Professor Trelawney was making a commotion about being fired) and Harry didn't look at it and instead followed Snape to the sounds of the commotion, so maybe Snape thought that if Harry hadn't looked at it then, then he could trust him not to look at it any other time.

As for not putting the Pensieve in a cabinet or camouflaging it, I think that Snape wasn't counting on needing to do either of those things, since he wasn't planning on being distracted and leaving Harry alone with the Pensieve. And after the first time Snape got distracted and failed to put it away and Harry didn't look, he might have thought he could trust Harry not to look.

And it's not like Dumbledore was always very cautious with the Pensieve, either. In GoF, Dumbledore left the cabinet storing it ajar while leaving Harry alone in his office, and while he didn't seem to mind that Harry had gotten curious and peaked into the cabinet and wound up accidentally peaking into the Pensieve, and while he went on to use the opportunity to teach Harry about the Pensieve, it didn't come off to me like Dumbledore had meant for Harry to take a peak either (since it's not like Dumbledore couldn't have demonstrated the Pensieve to Harry directly, if he wanted to show it to Harry). I think Dumbledore was just careless in leaving the cabinet door ajar, because he's human, like the rest of us.

Frankly, I think the root of this lack of caution with the Pensieve (for both Dumbledore and Snape) was primarily due to plot reasons, since Harry is the POV character and most of the time we don't get to learn something if Harry doesn't learn it, and both trips to the Pensieve contained some important plot points. And I think it also has the benefit of humanizing Dumbledore and Snape, and showing that sometimes they just get distracted, like all of us.


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  #1151  
Old May 19th, 2014, 5:09 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I agree. Snape was not tempting Harry to see his memories. The whole reason it was in the pensieve in the first place was so that Harry didn't get to see it accidentally during the lesson. The one time Harry manages to break into Snape's mind, we see him checking the pensieve to make sure that he'd removed them from his mind.

The root cause of Harry looking into the pensieve was to get more information about Voldemort and his plans. He thought Snape was hiding Voldemort related secret information from him while he was really hiding memories of personal significance.

Honestly, I think Dumbledore and the Order blundered badly by not telling Harry what was going on. They should have told him that Voldemort was after secret information and would try and tempt Harry into retrieving it. Instead they had him believing that Voldemort was after some doomsday weapon stored in the Dept of Mysteries. That was blatantly misleading. Voldemort himself thought that Harry would have been briefed.

Snape's explanation of his connection with Voldemort also had him believe that he was protected when in Hogwarts. So Harry wound up thinking that his connection was essentially one-way and didn't consider that it could work in reverse. He saw it as an unpleasant asset.


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  #1152  
Old June 8th, 2014, 12:34 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Honestly, I think Dumbledore and the Order blundered badly by not telling Harry what was going on. They should have told him that Voldemort was after secret information and would try and tempt Harry into retrieving it. Instead they had him believing that Voldemort was after some doomsday weapon stored in the Dept of Mysteries. That was blatantly misleading. Voldemort himself thought that Harry would have been briefed.
I agree. Much of Harry's mistrust of Snape was in large part due to people keeping things from him. Snape might not have been tempting Harry with his thoughts but he deliberately forbade Dumbledore from telling anyone he was protecting James Potter's kid. The fact is that Harry was left in the dark by Dumbledore, Snape, and the Order which by that point they all should have realized was folly as Harry would often find ways to satiate his curiosity. Plus, all things considered, I don't know what right anyone had to keep anything Voldemort related from Harry. The prophecy said that Harry, and no one else, was going to defeat Voldemort. That necessarily intimates that if no one tried to spare his feelings or keep him from harm he was going to defeat Voldemort anyway...so why put him in positions like the ones Dumbledore and Snape often put him in?!


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  #1153  
Old June 29th, 2014, 12:06 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Because the author needed to obfuscate in order to keep her secrets.

Many of these rather stupid little things are merely plot devices.


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  #1154  
Old July 3rd, 2014, 11:46 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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The prophecy said that Harry, and no one else, was going to defeat Voldemort. That necessarily intimates that if no one tried to spare his feelings or keep him from harm he was going to defeat Voldemort anyway...so why put him in positions like the ones Dumbledore and Snape often put him in?!
Well, Dumbledore did not believe in the prophecy. Up until he got himself cursed, I think he intended to kill Voldemort himself. I don't think Dumbledore ever intended to tell Harry about the prophecy until he had atleast turned seventeen.

He probably would not have told it to Harry even at the end of OoTP if not for the events that transpired. Sirius dying and Harry raging at him is what finally made him realize that he had to tell him. I can understand him not wanting to cause Harry more pain but he was a little too secretive.


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  #1155  
Old July 7th, 2014, 12:06 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Well, Dumbledore did not believe in the prophecy.
I don't think Dumbledore acted the way he did, because he believed in the Prophecy. I think he acted the way he did, because he believed Voldemort would believe in it, thereby ensuring that the Prophecy would come true, because Voldemort would work towards fulfilling it. He got an opportunity to hint to Voldemort about it, that very moment, when Trelawney gave it, through Snape.


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  #1156  
Old July 9th, 2014, 4:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I don't think Dumbledore acted the way he did, because he believed in the Prophecy. I think he acted the way he did, because he believed Voldemort would believe in it, thereby ensuring that the Prophecy would come true, because Voldemort would work towards fulfilling it. He got an opportunity to hint to Voldemort about it, that very moment, when Trelawney gave it, through Snape.
I meant that Dumbledore had no intention of letting Voldemort get to Harry in the first place to fulfill the prophecy.

Now that I think of this, I'm not sure if the prophecy ever implied that Harry was the *only* one who could defeat Voldemort. It basically states that someone with the ability to do so will be born soon. Dumbledore beating Voldemort wouldn't really be a violation in that case.


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  #1157  
Old July 10th, 2014, 1:01 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I wonder if Dumbledore took into account the fact that Snape had heard part of the prophecy when he hired him to be a teacher at Hogwarts? He hired Trelawney to keep her safe from Voldemort. I wonder if having Snape, the only other person beside Dumbledore ,who heard the prophecy at the school ,was Dumbledore's way to keep an eye on them both?

I believe, Dumbledore was trying to stay ahead of Voldemort, and knew that if he could get him interested in the prophecy ,that he could use Voldemort's obsessive behaviour against him and weaken his attempts to take over/win the war.


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  #1158  
Old July 12th, 2014, 4:34 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Well, Dumbledore did not believe in the prophecy. Up until he got himself cursed, I think he intended to kill Voldemort himself. I don't think Dumbledore ever intended to tell Harry about the prophecy until he had atleast turned seventeen.

He probably would not have told it to Harry even at the end of OoTP if not for the events that transpired. Sirius dying and Harry raging at him is what finally made him realize that he had to tell him. I can understand him not wanting to cause Harry more pain but he was a little too secretive.
I think that Dumbledore should have told Harry first year. Yes, Harry was young but he had been marked by Voldemort. Once Harry came to Hogwarts he was put on Voldemort's radar. Had Harry not gone to Hogwarts it would have been much longer until Voldemort learned that he survived.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I don't think Dumbledore acted the way he did, because he believed in the Prophecy. I think he acted the way he did, because he believed Voldemort would believe in it, thereby ensuring that the Prophecy would come true, because Voldemort would work towards fulfilling it. He got an opportunity to hint to Voldemort about it, that very moment, when Trelawney gave it, through Snape.
He let Voldemort learn about it? That seems contradictory. If he believed that Voldemort would believe then in essence he did believe in the prophecy. Either that or he believed that he could make the prophecy come true by manipulating events. Yet if that were the case why not just let Voldemort have free access to Neville and Harry? Why use the fidelius charm? Plus that seems like an awful lot of pressure on Snape whom he wasn't sure could be trusted until AFTER Lily's death.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
I meant that Dumbledore had no intention of letting Voldemort get to Harry in the first place to fulfill the prophecy.

Now that I think of this, I'm not sure if the prophecy ever implied that Harry was the *only* one who could defeat Voldemort. It basically states that someone with the ability to do so will be born soon. Dumbledore beating Voldemort wouldn't really be a violation in that case.
Before Voldemort marked him it COULD have been Neville. But once Voldemort marked him it could ONLY be Harry. Dumbledore knew this from the time he dropped Harry off with his Aunt and Uncle.

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Originally Posted by twinsrule26 View Post
I wonder if Dumbledore took into account the fact that Snape had heard part of the prophecy when he hired him to be a teacher at Hogwarts? He hired Trelawney to keep her safe from Voldemort. I wonder if having Snape, the only other person beside Dumbledore ,who heard the prophecy at the school ,was Dumbledore's way to keep an eye on them both?

I believe, Dumbledore was trying to stay ahead of Voldemort, and knew that if he could get him interested in the prophecy ,that he could use Voldemort's obsessive behaviour against him and weaken his attempts to take over/win the war.
By keep "an eye" do you mean keep Snape safe? I doubt it. Snape had already told Voldemort what little he knew of the prophecy . There was no more information that he could give Voldemort regarding the prophecy. Trelawney, however, was the only other one who knew the whole prophecy and that would be important info for Voldemort. Now if by "keep an eye" on Snape monitoring his involvement with Death Eaters after Voldemort's fall that is certainly a responsibility. Over the years Dumbledore may have softened his stance on Snape by I can't believe he was just being generous to Snape by hiring him either.


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Old July 13th, 2014, 10:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I think that Dumbledore should have told Harry first year. Yes, Harry was young but he had been marked by Voldemort. Once Harry came to Hogwarts he was put on Voldemort's radar. Had Harry not gone to Hogwarts it would have been much longer until Voldemort learned that he survived.
Voldemort already knew that Harry had survived when the curse backfired.

Harry probably could have handled it at the end of his first year but I can see why Dumbledore didn't want to. The ideal time to tell him was at the end of GoF. Voldemort was back and there was no point try to spare his feelings anymore.

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Before Voldemort marked him it COULD have been Neville. But once Voldemort marked him it could ONLY be Harry. Dumbledore knew this from the time he dropped Harry off with his Aunt and Uncle.
The prophecy referred to Harry but I don't think it claimed that Harry was the only person who could defeat Voldemort.


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Old July 13th, 2014, 10:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Voldemort already knew that Harry had survived when the curse backfired.

Harry probably could have handled it at the end of his first year but I can see why Dumbledore didn't want to. The ideal time to tell him was at the end of GoF. Voldemort was back and there was no point try to spare his feelings anymore.



The prophecy referred to Harry but I don't think it claimed that Harry was the only person who could defeat Voldemort.
It makes sense that Voldemort would have known Harry had survived. Still if Harry had not gone to Hogwarts I don't think Voldemort would have seen him as much of a threat anymore.

The prophecy said that the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord would be marked as Voldemort's equal. That definitely strongly implies that Harry was the only one.

Unless you could say that Voldemort marked Dumbledore by killing his hand when he tried to destroy the Horcrux and Snape saved him out of love?


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