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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #341  
Old April 19th, 2008, 6:47 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
I don't understand the EW issue. Harry was supposed to sacrifice himself. I don't think his phoenix wand would have acted then. As to defeating Voldemort, as I understood that scene, the AK curse backfired because Harry was its master.

Speaking about the wand, IMO it should have behaved the same way against Voldemort no matter what wand he held.
Dumbledore intended Snape to have the Elder wand. He says since GOF he knew that Voldemort would go after the wand. The Elder wand has to be won over from one by another only through power or in a deadly duel. Draco disarmed Dumbledore when Dumbledore weak and in a very serious situation. Harry did the same by simply twisting Draco's wand (not the EW) in Malfoy Manor.

The second thing was, Voldemort's wand and Harry's wand shared a magic that was deep and explosive, because of two things. One Voldemort's magic recognized the same soul residing in Harry and two Voldemort's magic recognized the same blood. And their wands recognized each other after the graveyard.

In the 7 Potters which I believed happened ONLY to set Voldemort searching for the EW but am still struggling to prove through canon, Voldemort realised that even another's wand will not work against Harry's wand. There was too much magic involved between them, too much exchange IMO.

Ever since Ollivander had been kidnapped Voldemort had believed that even if his wand would not work, another’s would do. But that did not. We saw that in the 7 Potters.

Only after that did Voldemort start on the Elder Wand, wanting a wand that would not recognize magic, blood, connection or anything; but only ownership through power. Otherwise he would not have started on the search for the Elder Wand IMO.

If he did not search for the Elder Wand; that is if the 7 Potters IMO had not happened, then he would have simply used Lucius’s wand or any other wand to attack Harry in the Forest. Because that’s when they meet next. And Harry’s wand would have blown up Voldemort’s and the death eaters may instinctively attack him or kill him. And Harry would have died; because he was protected only against Voldemort.

And any other wand IMO would have behaved the same way against Voldemort, but not the Elder Wand. And Dumbledore planned to have the Elder Wand in Voldemort’s hands for Voldemort to be defeated because he was holding a wand of which he was not a master.

That was why he may have told Snape to tell Harry that *Harry must die and Voldemort must do it himself*. The reason for this may one; Harry should not fight at that time against Voldemort so that the soul in him could be destroyed and two; Voldemort would not know that the Elder Wand was NOT working for him. With that in mind, Voldemort would have gone to the Final Battle and lost, as we saw it. He should have run away when he saw Harry coming back from the *dead*, but then Voldemort was pretty foolish IMO in the last book and he stayed where he was.

It was IMO the 7 Potters which started the whole search for the Elder Wand. Only I am not able to establish it right now with canon.

Because of all these things Snape as the known master of the Elder Wand would be killed by Voldemort to become what he would think was the wand’s next owner. That meant only death for Snape, right from the time Dumbledore contemplated this move. And that is why I felt Dumbledore should have told Snape, because I feel he did not.

The flaw in the plan was that Draco became the master of the wand which Dumbledore had intended would die with him IMO.

How does one decide what killed Dumbledore? While the curse from the ring may have killed him, the potion from the basin, which was Regulus’s, may have also done the trick. I am unsure how Snape's killing curse would have negated a serious intention to kill. Snape's intention was to kill on Dumbledore’s orders; while Voldemort’s curse was set to kill the person who would try to put on the ring.

Dumbledore’s death was suicide IMO. Snape did not kill him because he wanted to, but because he was ordered to, and this would make Dumbledore the master of the Elder Wand, while Voldemort would believe Snape was. But if the Elder Wand never had a part to play, Dumbledore could have killed himself. Then too, the curse would have been negated.

But Dumbledore did not do that. He intended Snape to become apparent master of the Elder Wand. IMO he had planned all this because the Elder Wand was the means by which Harry would live through the horcrux and defeat Voldemort. But for that to happen Voldemort had to seek out the wand first. Otherwise he would simply use another’s wand IMO.


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  #342  
Old April 19th, 2008, 9:37 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Dumbledore intended Snape to have the Elder wand. He says since GOF he knew that Voldemort would go after the wand. The Elder wand has to be won over from one by another only through power or in a deadly duel. Draco disarmed Dumbledore when Dumbledore weak and in a very serious situation. Harry did the same by simply twisting Draco's wand (not the EW) in Malfoy Manor.
Wow! A thread in which I actually agree with you. This calls for a celebration!
I think that the only part that Dumbledore could not control was Draco mastering the Elder Wand, and Harry disarming Draco later. But, it hardly changed anything in the plan, IMO, because Snape would never have been the real master of the wand, because he never really beat Dumbledore.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
In the 7 Potters which I believed happened ONLY to set Voldemort searching for the EW but am still struggling to prove through canon, Voldemort realised that even another's wand will not work against Harry's wand. There was too much magic involved between them, too much exchange IMO.
I think that it was also set up to prove to Voldemort beyond doubt that Snape had good sources in the Order. I think that in some way, that ensured that Snape would be in a position to request the Headmaster position. I don't think Dumbledore could have predicted Harry facing Voldemort. In fact, the 7 Potters plan was made to prevent such a confrontation.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Ever since Ollivander had been kidnapped Voldemort had believed that even if his wand would not work, another’s would do. But that did not. We saw that in the 7 Potters.

Only after that did Voldemort start on the Elder Wand, wanting a wand that would not recognize magic, blood, connection or anything; but only ownership through power. Otherwise he would not have started on the search for the Elder Wand IMO.
I think that Dumbledore knew that Ollivander knew of the Elder Wand, and would tell Voldemort about it eventually. I also think that Dumbledore knew that a borrowed wand would not work. It's possible that Dumbledore might have asked Ollivander about the wand connections, and what they might mean, after GoF.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
That was why he may have told Snape to tell Harry that *Harry must die and Voldemort must do it himself*. The reason for this may one; Harry should not fight at that time against Voldemort so that the soul in him could be destroyed and two; Voldemort would not know that the Elder Wand was NOT working for him.
I initially thought that the reason that he insised that Harry should not fight, was because he didn't want to risk Voldemort mastering the Elder wand that way. But then, Dumbledore had no idea that Harry would master the EW.

Voldemort knew that the wand was not working for him as soon as he had it. And Dumbledore had assured, with the 7 Potters plan, that Snape would be close to Voldemort, and not away on mission or anything. IMO, Dumbledore might as well have put a neon sign that said 'Kill me to master the EW' above Snape.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Well Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him knowing that Voldemort would believe Snape to be the master of the Elder Wand if he traced it to Dumbledore. And Dumbledore knew Voldemort would search for the Elder Wand. That sounds like a set up to me, I really don't see another way to look at it.
That's how I see it too. It makes me feel sorry for Snape. Set up to die by both the men he had put his trust in.

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I really, really hope not.

I would find that really horrible.

I already struggle with the dubious morality of Albus asking Snape to perform the mercy killing. For Albus to do the above to Snape I would find ... completely inexcusable.

That's all I have to say.

I think that Dumbledore was thinking of the greater good in both cases. It was essential that Voldemort should die, and he saw only one way to do it. It was a hard decision for him to make, IMO.

In the meeting that Dumbledore has with Snape, where he tells Snape that Harry has to die, he has his eyes closed the whole time. Could it be that he could not bear to look at Snape and lie to him, knowing that Snape too was to share the same, if not worse, fate?


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  #343  
Old April 19th, 2008, 11:03 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Wow! A thread in which I actually agree with you. This calls for a celebration!
And in a thread that has the words Snape written on it!

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I think that it was also set up to prove to Voldemort beyond doubt that Snape had good sources in the Order. I think that in some way, that ensured that Snape would be in a position to request the Headmaster position. I don't think Dumbledore could have predicted Harry facing Voldemort. In fact, the 7 Potters plan was made to prevent such a confrontation.
This I am not very sure. Sure, Dumbledore says that Snape should provide information about Harry so that Voldemort woulod not be suspicious. But after the 7 Potters Snape never provides information about the Order; Voldemort could have easily asked him to get information about Lupin and Tonks whom he wants to kill from the same source, or about the Weasleys whom Voldemort knows are very close to Harry. But after the 7 Potters Snape's source enver tells him anything.

Snape was Voldemort's most trusted follower in the first chapter. He is asked to sit on Voldemort's right. I think Voldemort would agree if Snape was not able to get him any information, because Snape had taken the No.2 spot as the most wanted man next to Voldemort himself in all of Wizarding Britain IMO.

I feel the 7 Potters was only to start Voldemort on the EW.

Quote:
I initially thought that the reason that he insised that Harry should not fight, was because he didn't want to risk Voldemort mastering the Elder wand that way. But then, Dumbledore had no idea that Harry would master the EW.
Dumbeldore knew about the magic between Harry and Voldmort's wands. Dumbledore also knew the connection between Harry and Voldemort because of the blood. And they also shared another connection because of the soul. In the graveyard Harry's wand won that round. And Voldemort'as wand and magic recognizing it, could not fight against the victor. And I think Dumbledore knew it too.

If Dumbeldore just wanted to keep the wand safe; he could have just killed himself IMO. That is why I differ from zgirnius's view that Dumbeldore's concern was only to keep Voldemort from the wand. It was not so IMO. Dumbeldore wanted Voldemort to have the wand under specific conditions, in a specific manner.

Quote:
posted by zgirnius
Nor could Albus. Which is why I do not believe he was planning around this sort of thing. I think his concern with the Elder Wand was to keep Volemort from being its master, and that is where it ended. This is why he did not wish to die a death directly caused by the Ring Curse. Such a death would have given the wand's mastery to Voldemort, since he cursed the ring
But how would Voldemort know and want and begin to search for the elder wand? Only if he knew that another wand would not work for him. Voldemort only knew that his wand did strange things. he never knew that another wand too would not work. And unless he knew that, he would never start the search for the EW.

And after the 7 Potters he does.

First he tortures Ollivander. Next he goes to Gregorovitch. Third he comes to Grindelwald. Fourth he breaks open the tomb and takes the wand. Fifth he understands that the wand does not work well for him and does research and finds out that to be master of the EW he has to defeat the previous owner.

Snape, he thinks would never fight him because he is a loyal DE. So he kills Snape and thinks he has become the master.

Harry sees the memories and goes to sacrifice himself and is sent back, by a beaming Dumbledore. Voldemort is defeated.

All this started only after the 7 Potters. Until then Voldemort was sure that Lucius's or Bella's or even Charity's wand would work for him, because they were not broother wands with Harry's.

While this magic may be untested and unknown like the sacrifice, I think Dumbledore after the graveyard, when IMO he first started the current plan to defeat Voldemort; had a good guess about the whole wand thing and prepared for all eventualities as well.

All this required Snape to die. From the moment this Plan was concieved. Did Dumbledore have the right to take a delibearte action that would surely result in the death of another man, because he wanted Harry to live?

I would agree, if Snape agrees too.


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  #344  
Old April 19th, 2008, 11:09 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Well although I state Dumbledore's deeds bluntly, it doesn't mean I feel he was entirely cold hearted. Dumbledore had compassion for others - a lot of it actually. But he allowed his goal to bring down Voldemort overcome his compassion at every turn. Dumbledore believed his plan was best - maybe the only plan that would work, however, despite his wisdom, he should have consulted with at least one other person, imo.

Dumbledore's plan for Snape was the most devious, imo, because he didn't disclose anything at all to him about the Elder Wand and that it would very end up with Voldemort killing him. Dumbledore's telling Harry of his fate at the last minute was also wrong, but better than how he handled the situation with Snape, imo.


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  #345  
Old April 19th, 2008, 11:27 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Well although I state Dumbledore's deeds bluntly, it doesn't mean I feel he was entirely cold hearted. Dumbledore had compassion for others - a lot of it actually. But he allowed his goal to bring down Voldemort overcome his compassion at every turn. Dumbledore believed his plan was best - maybe the only plan that would work, however, despite his wisdom, he should have consulted with at least one other person, imo.

Dumbledore's plan for Snape was the most devious, imo, because he didn't disclose anything at all to him about the Elder Wand and that it would very end up with Voldemort killing him. Dumbledore's telling Harry of his fate at the last minute was also wrong, but better than how he handled the situation with Snape, imo.
I also agree that Dumbledore had lots of compassion. He was very human IMO. I only wanted him to tell Snape about the Elder Wand. That is all.


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  #346  
Old April 19th, 2008, 2:45 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
The second thing was, Voldemort's wand and Harry's wand shared a magic that was deep and explosive, because of two things. One Voldemort's magic recognized the same soul residing in Harry and two Voldemort's magic recognized the same blood. And their wands recognized each other after the graveyard.
I believe that what happened in the graveyard was only because the two wands were brothers. IMO it had nothing to do with Harry's and Voldemort's relationship. If Harry didn't try to defend himself, IMO King's Cross would have happened 3 years earlier. But thats another topic.

Quote:
Ever since Ollivander had been kidnapped Voldemort had believed that even if his wand would not work, another’s would do. But that did not. We saw that in the 7 Potters.
Interesting that Voldemort didn't kidnap Ollivander immediately after GoF. He tried to kill Harry with the same wand end of OotP. I would have thought that it would have been his first priority to find out why his wand behaved that way.

Quote:
Only after that did Voldemort start on the Elder Wand, wanting a wand that would not recognize magic, blood, connection or anything; but only ownership through power. Otherwise he would not have started on the search for the Elder Wand IMO.
DD says that Harry's wand recognized Voldemort and used Voldemort's magic against it which Lucius' wand could not handle. Atleast that is how I understood it. IMO Harry's wand would have reacted the same way even if Voldemort had the EW. Whether the wand would snap is a different matter.

Quote:
If he did not search for the Elder Wand; that is if the 7 Potters IMO had not happened, then he would have simply used Lucius’s wand or any other wand to attack Harry in the Forest. Because that’s when they meet next. And Harry’s wand would have blown up Voldemort’s and the death eaters may instinctively attack him or kill him. And Harry would have died; because he was protected only against Voldemort.
Harry's wand was stuffed under his robes when he faced Voldemort in the forest. I don't think it would have flown out and cast some spell.
Also the wand did nothing when Voldemort tried to kill him in OotP. I think Harry's intention plays a part in its behaviour against Voldemort.

Quote:
And any other wand IMO would have behaved the same way against Voldemort, but not the Elder Wand. And Dumbledore planned to have the Elder Wand in Voldemort’s hands for Voldemort to be defeated because he was holding a wand of which he was not a master.
IMO it is not a question Voldemort's wand behaving badly rather what Harry's wand does.
We see Voldemort duelling three people with the EW. He didn't seem to have much problem handling them.

Quote:
That was why he may have told Snape to tell Harry that *Harry must die and Voldemort must do it himself*. The reason for this may one; Harry should not fight at that time against Voldemort so that the soul in him could be destroyed and two; Voldemort would not know that the Elder Wand was NOT working for him. With that in mind, Voldemort would have gone to the Final Battle and lost, as we saw it. He should have run away when he saw Harry coming back from the *dead*, but then Voldemort was pretty foolish IMO in the last book and he stayed where he was.
The AK curse backfired because Harry was its master. If Harry was not its master, Harry would have been hit. Whether Harry would have survived that is again another matter.

Also in King's Cross, when Harry asked DD about the wand, DD said he wasn't sure. He then told Harry what he thought happened. If he had planned it, he would have been sure of the reason and not made a guess.

Wow..this is my longest post


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  #347  
Old April 19th, 2008, 8:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I believe that what happened in the graveyard was only because the two wands were brothers. IMO it had nothing to do with Harry's and Voldemort's relationship. If Harry didn't try to defend himself, IMO King's Cross would have happened 3 years earlier. But thats another topic.
I agree to a point. Dumbledore says that there was already a relation between them because of the soul bit and the blood that was taken before the wands met. With that history between them, the wands which shared cores, met and refused to fight IMO. But even then I think Dumbledore's plan for the EW would not have chnaged.

Quote:
Interesting that Voldemort didn't kidnap Ollivander immediately after GoF. He tried to kill Harry with the same wand end of OotP. I would have thought that it would have been his first priority to find out why his wand behaved that way.
He did not fight Harry in OOTP. He possessed him. Thre was no wand dueling. And Voldemort was operating in secret all of OOTP. It was only at the ned that he came out into the open. And the first thing he did, was to capture Ollivander.

Quote:
DD says that Harry's wand recognized Voldemort and used Voldemort's magic against it which Lucius' wand could not handle. Atleast that is how I understood it. IMO Harry's wand would have reacted the same way even if Voldemort had the EW. Whether the wand would snap is a different matter.
No it would not. The EW recognizes only ownership. It does not understand emotion or magical relation or anything like that IMO. That's what I understood about the EW. And that was why Voldemort wanted it. It would not blow up on him. It would not be defeated by anything other than power and winning it by defeating the previous owner convincingly IMO.

Quote:
Harry's wand was stuffed under his robes when he faced Voldemort in the forest. I don't think it would have flown out and cast some spell.
Also the wand did nothing when Voldemort tried to kill him in OotP. I think Harry's intention plays a part in its behaviour against Voldemort.
Harry's wand was stuffed inside his robes, because he went to meet Voledmort intending to die. Voldemort did not know that. He was prepared to fight and win with Harry, because he had the EW with him, which he knew would not be defeated ever IMO.

Quote:
IMO it is not a question Voldemort's wand behaving badly rather what Harry's wand does.
We see Voldemort duelling three people with the EW. He didn't seem to have much problem handling them.
He was not dueling with the wand. Or was he? He was casting the AKs and curses at others I thought. May have to read that bit again, if I am wrong.

Quote:
The AK curse backfired because Harry was its master. If Harry was not its master, Harry would have been hit. Whether Harry would have survived that is again another matter.
I really don't know how effective the AK would have been from Voldemort's wand, in a duel. I think you have a point; but I think the AK or any other curse would not have been that effective. It was because it was not effective, that Voldemort decided to kill Snape in the first place. IMO

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Wow..this is my longest post


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  #348  
Old April 19th, 2008, 8:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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IMO it is not a question Voldemort's wand behaving badly rather what Harry's wand does.
We see Voldemort duelling three people with the EW. He didn't seem to have much problem handling them.
He was not dueling with the wand. Or was he? He was casting the AKs and curses at others I thought. May have to read that bit again, if I am wrong.
I was under the impression that the wand would work for pretty much anyone; but it would work much better for it's rightful owner. The only exception I an think of is if a wand is used against it's rightful owner - when it would not work properly.


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  #349  
Old April 19th, 2008, 9:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

This might be true of the Elder Wand, we do not really know. But it is not true of a regular wand. Note how much difficulty Harry had using Hermione's wand, afte his broke. In contrast, when he seized Draco's, that one worked well for him, because it actually transferred itself to him.


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  #350  
Old April 19th, 2008, 9:24 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Had Draco's wand actually transferred to Harry? I thought it was just more compatable with Harry than Hermione's had been. The thing is, when you buy a wand, you get to try several and it isn't like they don't work, just some work better than others. I wonder if Harry gave Draco his wand back?

But Voldemort was using the Elder Wand, it just wasn't working any better than his usual wand he said. That is why he believed he could only be master by killing Snape. And there we are back again at Dumbledore's plan - it still is rather mind blowing.


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  #351  
Old April 19th, 2008, 9:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Ah yes - I was remembering LV saying that he was able to use the EW like normal & it should have been much better.

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  #352  
Old April 19th, 2008, 10:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
He did not fight Harry in OOTP. He possessed him. Thre was no wand dueling.
Voldemort cast the AK just before DD turned up. Harry's wand didn't act of its own accord then.

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No it would not. The EW recognizes only ownership. It does not understand emotion or magical relation or anything like that IMO. That's what I understood about the EW. And that was why Voldemort wanted it. It would not blow up on him. It would not be defeated by anything other than power and winning it by defeating the previous owner convincingly IMO.
It had nothing to do with Voldemort's wand. According to DD, Harry did some spell against Voldemort which resulted in Lucius' wand snapping. During the event, Harry sees a 'spurt of golden fire'. Lucius' wand snapped because it could not handle it. The EW might have been able to handle it but that would not stop Harry's wand from behaving the way it did.

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Harry's wand was stuffed inside his robes, because he went to meet Voledmort intending to die.
Exactly. DD wanted Harry to sacrifice himself. It would not have mattered what wand Harry had as he was not supposed to fight Voldemort.
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He was not dueling with the wand. Or was he? He was casting the AKs and curses at others I thought. May have to read that bit again, if I am wrong.
He was duelling Slughorn, Kingsley and McGonagall.

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I really don't know how effective the AK would have been from Voldemort's wand, in a duel. I think you have a point; but I think the AK or any other curse would not have been that effective. It was because it was not effective, that Voldemort decided to kill Snape in the first place. IMO
Whether the level of AK's effectiveness changed or not, it got the job done. I think it's mentioned that he killed a lot of people in one go when he learned that the cup was stolen.

IMO DD told Snape to tell the date for Harry's departure for the reason he told Snape. DD still had stuff for Snape to do which would have been impossible if Snape did not become headmaster. IMO DD didn't want to give Voldemort the slightest reason to change his mind regarding that.


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Old April 19th, 2008, 10:39 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I have a question. When Snape killed Dumbledore with the killing curse did Snape split his soul? Or is it only at will can you split your soul through killing?


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Old April 20th, 2008, 12:35 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
This I am not very sure. Sure, Dumbledore says that Snape should provide information about Harry so that Voldemort would not be suspicious. But after the 7 Potters Snape never provides information about the Order; Voldemort could have easily asked him to get information about Lupin and Tonks whom he wants to kill from the same source, or about the Weasleys whom Voldemort knows are very close to Harry. But after the 7 Potters Snape's source enver tells him anything.
Isn't that understandable though? Once the 7P plan was compromised, it was clear to the Order that there was a traitor in their midst. Snape could easily explain that his source was now useless, because he had been exposed. Besides, Snape's information brought Harry within arms reach of Voldemort (literally) and if it hadn't been for the wand connection, Voldemort would have won.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
If Dumbeldore just wanted to keep the wand safe; he could have just killed himself IMO. That is why I differ from zgirnius's view that Dumbeldore's concern was only to keep Voldemort from the wand. It was not so IMO. Dumbeldore wanted Voldemort to have the wand under specific conditions, in a specific manner.
I agree that Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to have a wand that would not work for him, even though Voldemort was convinced that it would. But, the original plan was for the wand's power to have died with Dumbledore. He did not count on it being transferred to Draco.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But how would Voldemort know and want and begin to search for the elder wand? Only if he knew that another wand would not work for him. Voldemort only knew that his wand did strange things. he never knew that another wand too would not work. And unless he knew that, he would never start the search for the EW.
In other words, another confrontation between Harry and Voldemort was required. I agree. This was, perhaps, one of the main things that Dumbledore hoped to accomplish with the 7P plan. I just think that it was also meant to put Snape in a position in which he could ask for the Headmaster post, once the school was taken. That was essential too, for the safety of the students.

Let's assume for a moment that the sole reason for the 7P plan was the confrontation. But, how would Dumbledore explain it to Snape then? There had to be a reason that Dumbledore could provide Snape, without mentioning the EW. And as we see in the text, this is it.
DH, The Prince's Tale“You will have to give Voldemort the correct date of Harry’s departure from his aunt and uncle’s,” said Dumbledore.
“Not to do so will raise suspicion, when Voldemort believes you so well informed. However, you must plant the idea of decoys; that, I think, ought to ensure Harry’s safety. Try Confunding Mundungus Fletcher. And Severus, if you are forced to take part in the chase, be sure to act your part convincingly. . . I am counting upon you to remain in Lord Voldemort’s good books as long as possible, or Hogwarts will be left to the mercy of the Carrows. . . ”
I think that on the whole, it was a gamble on Dumbledore's part that the confrontation would occur. If the confrontation occured later, it would, have in fact, bought even more time for Harry and his friends, as Voldemort found out about the Elder Wand and tracked it down. Voldemort took almost an year to track it down, after all.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
All this required Snape to die. From the moment this Plan was concieved. Did Dumbledore have the right to take a delibearte action that would surely result in the death of another man, because he wanted Harry to live?
Which is why I think that Dumbledore thought Snape was expendable. He knew that Harry had a chance to live, but Snape never had a chance.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But even then I think Dumbledore's plan for the EW would not have chnaged.
I don't think that Dumbledore counted on being dead anytime soon, way back in GoF. I don't think that his plans back then involved the wand. His encounter with the ring, and his impending death, forced him into a position where he had to set Snape up. Ironic, considering that Snape had bought him that extra year, and that Dumbledore used it to set up Snape to die.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
He did not fight Harry in OOTP. He possessed him. Thre was no wand dueling. And Voldemort was operating in secret all of OOTP. It was only at the ned that he came out into the open. And the first thing he did, was to capture Ollivander.
Exactly. He was shaken by the previous encounter, and had no wish to duel Harry. He tried it once, and then switched to possesing Harry.
I think that the fight scene in OoTP, between Dumbledore and Voldemort, shows Dumbledore's mastery of the EW. It's like the wand senses what Dumbledore intends to do, and helps him. I think that this was the reason for why the cursed hand did not disable Dumbledore. He still had the Elder Wand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl
I have a question. When Snape killed Dumbledore with the killing curse did Snape split his soul? Or is it only at will can you split your soul through killing?
Snape's intentions were honourable. Snape did not murder Dumbledore, after all. It was a mercy killing. It's murder, not just killing, that rips the soul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbrother
Voldemort cast the AK just before DD turned up. Harry's wand didn't act of its own accord then.
The difference being that Voldemort was using the brother wand. Brother wands do not attack each other. The situation was unique during the 7P, in that Harry's wand recognised Voldemort with Lucius's wand as both kin and enemy. The kin (Voldemort) was using an enemy (Lucius's wand). That was the reason why it attacked Lucius's wand, and not Voldemort himself.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother
He was duelling Slughorn, Kingsley and McGonagall.
More importantly, they were holding him off, successfully. The supposedly unbeatable wand wasn't doing anything much. As Voldemort says, the EW does work for him, but it doesn't perfom spectacularly for him.

Is there another thread where the Elder wand, and wandlore in general, can be discussed? I feel that we're going a bit OT with the wand discussion.


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  #355  
Old April 20th, 2008, 3:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I have a question. When Snape killed Dumbledore with the killing curse did Snape split his soul? Or is it only at will can you split your soul through killing?
My own answer to your question is "No, Snape did not split his soul". I don't think it is a thing a wizard can choose, it happens automatically. However, my understandong of Slughorn's remarks of what causes the soul to split it that it is murder. Not every killing is a murder (most obviously, think accident...), and I do not believe Snape's killing of Albus was an evil act at all - far from it. So it was not a murder.


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  #356  
Old April 20th, 2008, 3:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

In my view, it did split his soul, only because that is the result of using the curse. It is immaterial why one uses it, the soul is ruptured. However, as Zara menitoned, it is used for things like Self Defense, the 'greater good', etc., and in those cases I think the soul will heal quite rapidly because the motive was not a bad one. In Snape's case, he was keeping his promise to Dumbledore which would make his motive the 'greater good' - but he was also keeping his promise to Narcissa, which spared his own life and was also for the greater good, but in a very ancilliary way. So his soul might take a little longer to heal depending on his own understanding and remorse (both of which I think he had eventually). So it doesn't matter so much that the soul splits if it can heal, imo.


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  #357  
Old April 20th, 2008, 10:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
In other words, another confrontation between Harry and Voldemort was required. I agree. This was, perhaps, one of the main things that Dumbledore hoped to accomplish with the 7P plan. I just think that it was also meant to put Snape in a position in which he could ask for the Headmaster post, once the school was taken. That was essential too, for the safety of the students.
DD did not know what would happen if Voldemort and Harry met each other. He wasn't sure what happened in King's Cross. He should have been if he was expecting it to happen. DD needed Snape to do other things besides protecting the students. IMO he didn't want to take a chance that some DE would become headmaster.

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The situation was unique during the 7P, in that Harry's wand recognised Voldemort with Lucius's wand as both kin and enemy. The kin (Voldemort) was using an enemy (Lucius's wand). That was the reason why it attacked Lucius's wand, and not Voldemort himself.
As I understood it, the magic (golden fire) was directed against Voldemort. It was too much for Lucius' wand to handle and so it snapped. Even if what you say is true, Harry's wand would react the same way against the EW because it would recognize it as an enemy.

Quote:
More importantly, they were holding him off, successfully. The supposedly unbeatable wand wasn't doing anything much. As Voldemort says, the EW does work for him, but it doesn't perfom spectacularly for him.
I thought they were trying to finish him but couldn't. He beat them in the end though. In any case, IMO it speaks volumes that Voldemort was able to handle three experienced people at the same time with a wand that wasn't even working properly for him.

We can discuss about EW here: The Elder Wand



Last edited by wolfbrother; April 20th, 2008 at 10:29 pm.
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  #358  
Old April 20th, 2008, 11:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
My own answer to your question is "No, Snape did not split his soul". I don't think it is a thing a wizard can choose, it happens automatically. However, my understandong of Slughorn's remarks of what causes the soul to split it that it is murder. Not every killing is a murder (most obviously, think accident...), and I do not believe Snape's killing of Albus was an evil act at all - far from it. So it was not a murder.
Alright I get it thanks zgirnius.So that means that Dumbeldore or his brother(not sure which). When either one of them killed their sister they didn't split their soul's. I get it!!
I still don't understand though what kind of relationship Snape and Dumbeldore had between them. Was it friendship, a father figure and son relationship, an advisor...


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  #359  
Old April 21st, 2008, 6:55 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Voldemort cast the AK just before DD turned up. Harry's wand didn't act of its own accord then.
They were not duelling with each other. I cannot think of any other reason for this. Even in the Forest Harry does not duel with Voldemort. Then too, the Ak kills him to destroy the soul bit IMO.

Quote:
It had nothing to do with Voldemort's wand. According to DD, Harry did some spell against Voldemort which resulted in Lucius' wand snapping. During the event, Harry sees a 'spurt of golden fire'. Lucius' wand snapped because it could not handle it. The EW might have been able to handle it but that would not stop Harry's wand from behaving the way it did.
That is what the Elder Wand would not have if we go according to what the Elder Wand would do. It would not recognize anything except ownership. And that ownership has to come in a real duel or a life and death situation. The Elder Wand would not acknowledge the magic or the connection. It was reputedly a ruthless wand unconcerned with anything else. While I think you have a great point that Harry’s wand would have reacted the same way and I agree, it may have, the Elder Wand would not have burst nor would it have connected. That would be the main advantage Voldemort would have got with the EW IMO.

Quote:
Exactly. DD wanted Harry to sacrifice himself. It would not have mattered what wand Harry had as he was not supposed to fight Voldemort.
After that Harry would still need to fight him and at that time he would need the Elder Wand not working properly for Voldemort to win against him IMO. Otherwise why should Dumbledore tell Harry in King’s Cross that he intended for Snape to get the wand. Was he deliberately killing Snape then? I do not think so, because Dumbledore was not the person to do that IMO.

Quote:
He was duelling Slughorn, Kingsley and McGonagall.
I have no answers for this at present, because I think the wand would not have worked properly for him. Unless he decided to use his yew wand because Harry was dead? And once again took out the Elder Wand once he saw Harry? I really don’t know.

Quote:
Whether the level of AK's effectiveness changed or not, it got the job done. I think it's mentioned that he killed a lot of people in one go when he learned that the cup was stolen.
But we do not know if that was the Elder Wand or his own yew and phoenix feather wand. Is it mentioned specifically that it was the Elder Wand? Since Voldemort was aware the EW was not working properly, he could have used his wand for dueling and everything else, except when it came to Harry, then he may have used the EW. We don't know.

Quote:
IMO DD told Snape to tell the date for Harry's departure for the reason he told Snape. DD still had stuff for Snape to do which would have been impossible if Snape did not become headmaster. IMO DD didn't want to give Voldemort the slightest reason to change his mind regarding that.
Yes he told Snape A reason. But I really think the real reason was something different. And once again I think Dumbledore has not confided in Snape something I think he should have. But if he had I doubt Snape would have given his cooperation, because Dumbledore was wilfully putting a lot of people including Harry into grave danger.

And if you like others think that Dumbledore gave the information to Snape only for reasons mentioned in the book, then how would Voldemort start on the search for the Elder Wand? because until the 7 Potters, Voldemort was planning to use Lucius’s wand, because Ollivander had only told Voldemort that his wand had behaved the way it did, only because of being brother wands.

I feel that that was why this was organized. And had Voldemort not met Harry and fought with him, I think Dumbledore would have arranged for another meeting. Because until another’s wand blew up in his face Voldemort was never going to bother about the Elder Wand. the first thing the night of the 7 Potters itself, Harry sees through the link, that Voldemort goes straight to Ollivander and curses him, accusing him of lying to Voldemort because Lucius’s wand did not do the trick IMO.

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Isn't that understandable though? Once the 7P plan was compromised, it was clear to the Order that there was a traitor in their midst. Snape could easily explain that his source was now useless, because he had been exposed. Besides, Snape's information brought Harry within arms reach of Voldemort (literally) and if it hadn't been for the wand connection, Voldemort would have won.
Snape was the traitor IMO according to Voldemort. And he was in a position of great trust, because he had killed Dumbledore. No one, not even Voldemort was going to doubt him and the 7 Potters was such a risky plan, that I feel it has a deeper meaning. If not for this, the 7 Potters make no sense. Snape was as wanted as Voldemort in the Wizarding World after the murder of Dumbledore. I think Voldemort would have agreed that Snape could not go near any member, because he would be killed first and then questioned. And this was a plan that Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to know. And I cannot believe that after Dumbledore’s death Snape would need further proof of his loyalty within a month. That was why I thought that the 7 Potters was made known to Voldemort to tell him about the wand connection.

Quote:
I agree that Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to have a wand that would not work for him, even though Voldemort was convinced that it would. But, the original plan was for the wand's power to have died with Dumbledore. He did not count on it being transferred to Draco.
Yes, I agree. But even then the plan did not change, because Dumbledore alone knew that the ownership of the wand had changed. Not even Draco was aware of that. In fact this is another thing that tells me Snape did not know about the Elder Wand. Because if he did, he would have made sure Draco, unintentionally never passed on the wand to another. It was Harry who defeated Draco; we saw that; but what if it had been another person. It could have been so messy IMO.

Quote:
In other words, another confrontation between Harry and Voldemort was required. I agree. This was, perhaps, one of the main things that Dumbledore hoped to accomplish with the 7P plan. I just think that it was also meant to put Snape in a position in which he could ask for the Headmaster post, once the school was taken. That was essential too, for the safety of the students
I agree. Only I feel that the safety of the students was a given, because Voldemort would place Snape who had been at the school for more than 16 years and knew the students, the school and the teachers very well. He would know the trouble makers and would know the running of the school very well, since he was Head of House and in the school for such a long time. Voldemort would not appoint anyone for this job when he had Snape IMO. all the more the 7 Potters seem to be planned for another purpose IMO. Only I don’t have explicit canon to prove this. I only have conclusions I have arrived at from canon.

Quote:
Let's assume for a moment that the sole reason for the 7P plan was the confrontation. But, how would Dumbledore explain it to Snape then? There had to be a reason that Dumbledore could provide Snape, without mentioning the EW. And as we see in the text, this is it.
DH, The Prince's Tale“You will have to give Voldemort the correct date of Harry’s departure from his aunt and uncle’s,” said Dumbledore.
“Not to do so will raise suspicion, when Voldemort believes you so well informed. However, you must plant the idea of decoys; that, I think, ought to ensure Harry’s safety. Try Confunding Mundungus Fletcher. And Severus, if you are forced to take part in the chase, be sure to act your part convincingly. . . I am counting upon you to remain in Lord Voldemort’s good books as long as possible, or Hogwarts will be left to the mercy of the Carrows. . . ”
I think that on the whole, it was a gamble on Dumbledore's part that the confrontation would occur. If the confrontation occured later, it would, have in fact, bought even more time for Harry and his friends, as Voldemort found out about the Elder Wand and tracked it down. Voldemort took almost an year to track it down, after all.
Dumbledore wanted the confrontation to occur. At the same time it should also not be one which would be a cake walk that would ensure Harry's capture or everyone being harmed. I sincerely believ that if voldemort and Harry had not faced each other, Dumbledore would have planned another stunt like this. because Unless Voldemort knew what Harry's wand was capalble of, he would never dream of seking a wand that would counter all magical connections and everything IMO.

Quote:
Which is why I think that Dumbledore thought Snape was expendable. He knew that Harry had a chance to live, but Snape never had a chance.
I don’t mind Dumbledore thinking that of Snape, only it lets him down a bit, if he thought that, instead of choosing Snape as the best person for this work to win the war IMO. what I wanted Dumbledore to do was to tell Snape about the Elder Wand.


Quote:
I don't think that Dumbledore counted on being dead anytime soon, way back in GoF. I don't think that his plans back then involved the wand. His encounter with the ring, and his impending death, forced him into a position where he had to set Snape up. Ironic, considering that Snape had bought him that extra year, and that Dumbledore used it to set up Snape to die.
He knew he had a limited time from the holidays of 6th year. And he died at the end of that year. I think he had a lot of time to think out everything IMO.

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Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl View Post
I have a question. When Snape killed Dumbledore with the killing curse did Snape split his soul? Or is it only at will can you split your soul through killing?
I think the others have answered this, and I also think the same. A deliberate intention to kill is what would split the soul in HP, and it is that which is used to create a horcrux IMO. That can be healed with a lot of remorse, though.

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Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl View Post
I still don't understand though what kind of relationship Snape and Dumbeldore had between them. Was it friendship, a father figure and son relationship, an advisor...
No relationship as such I think. They met to work to bring down Voldemort and ensure Harry lived. And they did just that. Only Snape was not told; another mistake IMO; that Harry would survive after the Forest, while Dumbledore guessed and his guesses were always correct. Dumbledore IMO also did not tell Snape about the Elder Wand, which I think he should have.


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  #360  
Old April 21st, 2008, 12:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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No relationship as such I think. They met to work to bring down Voldemort and ensure Harry lived. And they did just that. Only Snape was not told; another mistake IMO; that Harry would survive after the Forest, while Dumbledore guessed and his guesses were always correct. Dumbledore IMO also did not tell Snape about the Elder Wand, which I think he should have.

I agree, Dumbledore and Snape didnt not share any sort of relationship besides assuring that Harry would live. They were both schemers to the plan, although Dumbledore kept much important information secret from Snape, which I think was wrong of him as well, considering how situational the plan was, and how important Snape was to it.


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