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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



View Poll Results: How do you think Dumbledore and Snape viewed their relationship?
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  #281  
Old March 6th, 2008, 8:40 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
It wasn't a total redemption, but I think Dumbledore orchestrated things so that Snape could gain sufficient redemption to get to the after world.
What would be total redemption for a person who did wrong things? And what would it have been for Snape in your opinion?


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  #282  
Old March 6th, 2008, 9:52 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
What would be total redemption for a person who did wrong things?
Well in the HP Universe, redemption appears to consist of rejection of evil and remorse for killing, torturing, maiming and otherwise causing serious bodily or mental injury to others and/or participating in others being killed, torured, maimed and seriously injured - physically or mentally.


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And what would it have been for Snape in your opinion?
In my personal view, Snape rejected evil, but he lacked complete remorse. I think Dumbledore realized this and attempted to intervene. Just as he worked with Snape, Draco and perhaps others to help guide them on the right path and away from Voldemort, in Snape's case, he tried to assist him with this last bit of remorse he lacked. It appears that Dumbledore orchestrated what would amount to Snape's death through the Elder Wand business, but it could also serve as a pathway to complete redemption. Snape's death scene seems to indicate that Snape didn't follow the pathway that Dumbledore had layed out.


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Old March 6th, 2008, 10:40 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I mean simply completing the process of getting Snape to realize he does not want to be a Death Eater, so that, de facto, he would cease being one.
I think I disagree; because Snape was already IMO a death eater when he came to Dumbledore. He was also one by choice. He was also coming because of a specific reason. Dumbledore IMO could not have trusted him then. Snape disgusts him, he cannot understand why Snape could not ask Voldemort to spare the lives of Harry and James, even when Harry was the child of the Prophecy and the world knew James was his personal enemy. While I completely and wholly disagree with Dumbledore for telling Snape that he was disgusted by a man who has come to him in utter despair and helplessness, I can understand if Dumbledore would not trust Snape at that time; not when he was a death eater by choice and had been one for sometime. And I think he did not. (Dumbledore trusting Snape I mean)

To turn Snape from being a death eater would not be in Dumbledore’s mind at that time I think. But he must have been intrigued at the answers Snape gave him. Dumbledore would also not have known that Snape loved Lily. So that was the first big news he would have had to process, and I think it was because Snape loved Lily and came running to him, the words *Anything* was accepted by Dumbledore in the way it was meant. Legilimency would have also helped a good bit IMO.

There was practically no relationship between Snape and Dumbledore at that time. The relationship of working together would come much later. At this time, I think it was Dumbledore simply accepting Snape for what he claimed, and giving him the job, so that he could watch Snape at close quarters, before he could come to a decision that Snape was indeed willing to do *Anything* and if his attitude told Dumbledore that Snape was out of Voldemort’s grasp truly.

So the responsibility was Snape's not Dumbledore's to over see his turning or helping him to stop being a death eater.

I personally think Snape stopped being a death eater and turned the moment he decided to go to Dumbledore whom he thought would kill him. There was IMO nothing for Dumbledore to do further for Snape.

It was Snape's journey, a lonely one where he would have only his actions past and present as company. And Snape came a winner all the way IMO.

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Like with Draco, exactly. His primary purpose was not to use Draco to best advantage. I think he wanted Draco to understand and choose rightly. In my opinion, this is precisely what he does with Snape in the scene we are discussing. I think Snape's surprise at the question of what he will do, is based in his understanding that he does not need to do anything more than he has already done. Dumbledore is not going to let the Potters and their prophecy boy get killed if he can help it, it makes no sense. Snape agrees to do whatever Dumbledore asks not out of fear that Lily might be killed, but because it is the right thing to do.
I agree with what you say about Draco. But I think he does not do that with Snape in the scene we saw, because with Draco he is willing to hide Lucius who was a death eater and would have been with Voldemort until the end, if Draco was not targeted. Draco could be swayed by promising him that Dumbledore would keep his parents and him safe.

Snape IMO did not come like Draco. With Draco Dumbledore went to him, went out of his way to help him, because of two things. One he must have believed that Draco was not a killer. Two he wanted Snape to end up with the Elder Wand for other reasons.

With Snape that was absent; because Snape was already a death eater. he came to Dumbledore. It could have been a ploy, a ruse, anything. Dumbledore would not think of turning him then. Even his love for Lily could be false, to ingratiate with Dumbledore and get the job Voldemort had asked him to.

But Dumbledore accepted Snape once he was satisfied that Snape was willing to do anything; but still does not trust him fully.

At that time, the onus was on Snape; he was the one who came running; he was the one who gave the message; he was the one who did not budge when Dumbledore was disgusted by him; he was the one who agreed to do anything for Dumbledore.

With Draco it was the exact opposite. It was Dumbledore who was offering; Dumbledore who was luring Draco and trying to convince him that not only him, but his parents, could be hidden; even when Lucius was a death eater adn in Azkaban at that time.

With Snape, it was Snape who was willing to become a slave, if it meant Lily could be saved. So Dumbledore accepted. And he watched. And when he was satisfied that Snape’s words and attitude and remorse, which I think was already in place when he came to the hill, he partially trusted him. Not fully, because he would not tell Snape about the horcruxes and nor would he allow Snape to die thinking Harry would live and IMO nor did he tell Snape about the Elder Wand.

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I thought this was exactly what Dumbledore was doing with Draco. He does not want him to murder, and he does want him to understand that he is not a killer, that he has other choices he could make. Isn't this helping Draco become a better person? It seemed to me that it was, and that it worked.
Yes, it did with Draco. Snape’s remorse and redemption IMO was already in place when he came to Dumbledore in the first instance.

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I agree he would start small. Merely because he could not be sure Snape really had the resolve to follow his words with actions, even if he hoped for it.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
In my personal view, Snape rejected evil, but he lacked complete remorse. I think Dumbledore realized this and attempted to intervene. Just as he worked with Snape, Draco and perhaps others to help guide them on the right path and away from Voldemort, in Snape's case, he tried to assist him with this last bit of remorse he lacked. It appears that he orchestrated what would amount to Snape's death through the Elder Wand business, but that was merely a pathway to redemption. Interpretations of many posters here have elightened me to the fact that Snape's actions during the death scene may show that he didn't follow the pathway that Dumbledore layed out. One day I have to re-read the death scene again to arrive at a firm conclusion on that front.
And was Dumbledore right in his life and actions do you feel, that he could help others on their path to redemption? I would respectfully disagree. Dumbledore helped others. I agree completely. Dumbledore powered redemptions, is something I disagree with. Because I don’t think Dumbledore was perfect in the first place, that he could oversee remorse and redemptions for others.

And I would have to think a bit before answering about redemption in the HP world.


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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; March 6th, 2008 at 10:43 am.
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  #284  
Old March 9th, 2008, 12:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

From the Harry Potter thread to the Snape one and from there to here.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
From the Harry Potter Thread.
If you mean because Harry was it's master and Voldemort didn't believe that, at the moment he used it, I agree.
Voldeort did not know that. That would be more accurate I suppose. Because if you say Voldemort did not believe that, then it means that he knew about Harry being the Master and did not believe it. I think Voldmeort did nor know either about Harry being the Master at the time he killed Snape or that Draco was the actual master before that. That was why he killed Snape in the first place.

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I am thinking you mean figuratively since Snape never touched the wand. So you mean Dumbledore wanted to make Voldemort believe Snape was the Master? I agree.
Apparently it is not necessary. Draco never even touched the wand nor did he know he was the Master; but he was when he disarmed Dumbledore on the Tower.

Dumbledore definitely wanted Voldemort to believ he was the Master of the EW. He says so to Harry in DH -- KC.

DH - King's Cross'But you expected him to go after the wand?'

'I have been sure he would try, ever since your wand beat Voldemort's in the graveyard of Little Hangleton. At first, he was afraid, you had conquered him by superior skill. Once he had kidnapped Ollivander however, he discovered the existence of twin cores. He thought that explained everything. Yet the borrowed wand did no better against yours! So Voldmoert instead of asking himself what quality it ws in you that had made your wand so strong, what gift you possessed that he did not, naturally set out to find the one wand, they said, would beat anyother. For him the Elder wand has become an obsession to rival his obsession with you. He believes that the Elder wand removes his last weakness and makes him truly invincible. Poor Severus....'

‘If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder wand, didn’t you?’

‘I admit that was my intention,’ Said Dumbledore, ‘but it did not work as I intended, did it?’

‘No,’ said Harry, ‘that bit did not work out.’


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I agree. So far so good.
With Snape between us it is not bound to last wicked; I'm sure of that, and frankly that's the fun.

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Doh! I knew it couldn't last, .
There I knew it.

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Actually Dumbledore sacrificed Snape so that Voldemort would believe he was master of the Elder Wand so that he could be killed by anyone.
Not by anyone, by Harry. With anyone his old yew wand worked perfectly fine. It was with Harry the wand did frightening things like joining together and terrifying him. We saw 2 instances to tell us what Voldemort's wand and someone else's wand would do aginst Harry's wand.

His yew wand would join and start singing the Pheonix song, that would scare Voldemort; and the last time it happened, Harry won that round. He then tried with Lucius's wand. That blew up on his face or something. So Harry's Phoenix wand knew Voldemort's magic and would work against him wither with his wand or with another's wand.

That was why the 7 Potter's happened. To show Voldemort that neither his wand nor another's wand would work with Harry.

It was the 7 Potters that sent Voldemort into a frenzy to search the wand of all wand; the EW, because the wand knew no defeat and had the capacity to defeat any wand.

He killed Charity with his yew wand. That worked fine. It was onlt with Harry there was a problem.

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At the time Dumbledore made this plan, I am pretty sure he knew it would likely end in Snape's death, but he wasn't sure that Harry would live after the horcrux was removed from him via a curse from Voldemort.
I think he was pretty sure though. That was why he looked triumphant in GOF, when he heard that Voldemort had taken his blood. From that time, I think he knew Harry would live. Before that, I am not too sure, though.

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He was pretty certain though, and if he turned out to be right, then he knew Harry would have to face Voldemort. He believed the wand would be powerless - because he intended for its power to die with him. However, Draco became the Master - which Dumbledore had not known would happen - and then Harry became the master, something else he could not have known.
I agree.

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Harry defeated Voldemort because he was the master - Dumbledore did not plan for that. Thus when Dumbledore made the plan, Snape was not being sacrificed for Harry, but rather sacrificed to fool Voldemort so that whoever fought Voldemort would have an advantage. But at the time, he didn't know it would be Harry - or that Harry would take a chance with the disarming spell because he was fairly sure he was the Master of the Elder Wand.
Sacrificed to fool Voldemort. Why? So that Harry could defeat him. That means Harry and the WW were the ones who would receive the benefit of Snape's death directly. That means a sacrifice to me.

While Dumbledore knew Draco became the Master; no one else did. And the most important thing was around 5 DEs saw Snape kill DD and Voldemort too, knew that Snape was the one who killed Dumbledore.

That was why he killed Snape. If he knew Drao was the Master, he would not have killed Snape, he would have killed Draco. But Dumbledore intended Snape to get the wand, and even when the actual master changed from himself to Draco, Dumbledore kept the to the old plan and allowed Snape to kill him.

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So I would disagree that Dumbledore was purposely sacrificing Snape for Harry. However, I would agree that the sacrifice Dumbledore made turned out to benefit Harry, but only because Harry unknowingly made that the case by becoming the master of the Elder Wand. Harry didn't do that on purpose of course, he didn't know that by disarming Draco of a completely different wand he would become Master of the Elder Wand.
And in fact knowing Draco to be the actual Master and still allowing Snape to kill him, thereby making Snape the apparent Master of the wand and fooling Voldemort, is IMO a bigger sacrifice.

The moment Snape killed Voldemort, his days were numbered, because the 7 Potters came into play almost at once and then Voldmeort's search for the wand would begin.

So Snape was living the last year of his life. That was a huge sacrifice and if Snape knew about this; well that raises him from a HERO status to something more in my eyes.

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As I explained above, imo, the sacrifice Dumbledore made was to fool Voldemort so that *whoever* faced him in the end would stand a better chance of winning. If Harry had not been the Master of the Elder Wand, we cannot know what would have happened - Harry may have used a completely different means of killing Voldemort.
Sure; but I have my doubts. Dumbledore planned every bit of this war, for the ending we saw, except Draco's part and later Harry winning the wand from him. He steered Harry in such a way, with everything planted at right places, with right person, for Harry to reach the conclusion we saw in the Books. It was IMO Dumbledore's planning through and through.

Though what do think Harry would have done, without Snape and Dumbledore and the EW? I think Hary would have found it very difficult. He had Dumbledore master plan; Snape working for him in the enemy camp and the EW in palce, in Snape's hand for Voldmeort to claim when the time was right.
It was IMO Dumbledore really all the way.

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I don't understand how you reached this conclusion. Harry could have won without being Master of the Elder Wand - that was Dumbledore's original plan. However, it just so happened he was the master and so he used that to his advantage and won. But that was not Dumbledore's plan.
I think it was Dumbledore's original plan, and the later plan as well. Who knew Draco was the actual master. No one; not even Draco. The original plan went on as it should have. Even if Harry had not taken the EW from Draco; Voldmeoprt would have still killed Snape for the wand and would have been killed by Harry in return. Nothing would change I think.

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Further, if Snape had not died, the Elder Wand would have still belonged to Harry, so Snape's death didn't assist Harry, it just fooled Voldemort.
Fooled Voldemort. But who knew that? No one. Voldemort still thought Snape was the Master and killed him. Snape was sacrificed without his knowledge for Harry to win the war.

Assume Voldemort did not think Snape was the Master; he would have gone exploring, and he MAY have realized that Draco and later Harry was the Master. He would have killed Draco, just in case; killed Snape just to be sure, and would have gone away from Hogwarts, made a few more horcruxes, and made himself completely inhuman, and re started the war. This time Harry without DD and Snape, would hav3e fought a tougher war, of horrific proportions IMO.

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But it didn't fool Voldemort at the time he was killed. Harry told Voldemort that Draco was the true master and that the wand had been transferred. Voldemort said he would "handle Draco later" - but then he didn't seem to believe that Harry disarming Draco of his other wand had transferred ownership to Harry (that was rather dues ex machina, I don't blame him for not believing it). So Voldemort did not think Snape was the master when he tried to kill Harry - he spoke as if he thought Draco might be, but didn't kill Draco immediately because Harry told him that he'd won it from Draco. I think the dark lord was confused (like many readers). .
What is duex ex machina?

Voldemort did not believe him, because he thought Snape was the Master, as he killed Dumbeldore. Yes he was confused. Poor,poor Voldemort. All of Book 7 he rather lost his DL tendencies a bit IMO. lol

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I think Snape's spying helped in the overall victory of the cause. But I don't think that Snape or Snape's death directly affected Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort in the final battle (Harry being the master did that). I don't think Dumbledore sacrificed Snape for Harry, but only to fool the dark lord - and I don't think Snape felt he was dying in sacrifice for Harry.
I explained this point above.


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If Harry had fought Voldemort and Harry was NOT the Master of the Elder Wand - we do not know what he would have done.
Voldemort would have been defeated. See, that was Dumbeldore's original plan. To die undefeated. He expected Voldmeort to kill Snape for the EW and become Master, after he removed the EW from DD's tomb. So he would fight Harry with a wand that did not recognize him as the Master. For that Snape still needed to die. Only then Voldmort would be assured he was the Master. It was literally setting up Snape to die for Harry to win this war.

That is why I feel so much about Snape needing that little bit of respect from Dumbeldore. To know about the real implications of the EW for Snape before he killed Dumbeldore.

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If Snape had lived (say Voldemort found out about Draco and killed him instead), Harry STILL would have been able to use its power. So Dumbledore, knowing none of this, could not have sacrificed Snape knowing that it would help Harry specifically. Basically, Dumbledore didn't care who it helped out, he just wanted Voldemort dead. I don't like that...but...
But no one knew. Only Dumbeldore did, and in KC he explains it to Harry. And then Harry knows.

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But to be honest, per the canon, Snape did not want to die. He wanted to complete his mission - he wanted to live.
Based upon what did you come to this conclusion?

I never thought about this, really, I don't know what to say, but I would be interested in reading your reasons for this.


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  #285  
Old March 9th, 2008, 2:48 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
From the Harry Potter thread to the Snape one and from there to here.


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Voldeort did not know that. That would be more accurate I suppose. Because if you say Voldemort did not believe that, then it means that he knew about Harry being the Master and did not believe it. I think Voldmeort did nor know either about Harry being the Master at the time he killed Snape or that Draco was the actual master before that. That was why he killed Snape in the first place.
I meant at the final battle when Harry told Voldemort he was most likely the master of the Elder Wand. I agree that Voldemort believed Snape was the master when he killed him.

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Not by anyone, by Harry.
I think this is where our opinions vary the most. You feel that Dumbledore was certain that Harry would kill Voldemort and I assume you feel he didn't think about what would happen if Harry didn't. But I think you are failing to take into account the fact that Dumbledore was not sure if Harry would live - he hoped so. But what if Harry died, don't you think Dumbledore considered that? I believe he did. If Harry died - Snape would still be set up to die and that was fine with Dumbledore because Voldemort would still end up fighting someone other than Harry with a wand that did not belong to him.

Also, Harry had to choose to fight Voldemort in the end. Dumbledore was pretty sure he would, but what if Harry had grabbed Ginny and headed off to safety? Don't you think Dumbledore considered that? I do. I feel that Dumbledore's plans were made so that whether Harry or anyone else fought Voldemort, the dark lord would not be invincible. If Voldemort was the master of the Elder Wand, NO ONE could defeat him, because no one could defeat him without his being master of the Elder Wand, he was a very strong wizard. So that is what I was trying to say.


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Sacrificed to fool Voldemort. Why? So that Harry could defeat him. That means Harry and the WW were the ones who would receive the benefit of Snape's death directly. That means a sacrifice to me.
It was a possibility, but not certain that it would be Harry. So you can say that Dumbledore sacrificed Snape so that Voldemort would not be invincible and could be killed - and then say since it happened to be Harry the sacrifice happened to be for his benefit. But when you say "sacrifice for Harry" it indicates that you are doing it strictly for Harry, but that wasn't the case here.

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Sure; but I have my doubts. Dumbledore planned every bit of this war, for the ending we saw, except Draco's part and later Harry winning the wand from him. He steered Harry in such a way, with everything planted at right places, with right person, for Harry to reach the conclusion we saw in the Books. It was IMO Dumbledore's planning through and through.

Though what do think Harry would have done, without Snape and Dumbledore and the EW? I think Hary would have found it very difficult. He had Dumbledore master plan; Snape working for him in the enemy camp and the EW in palce, in Snape's hand for Voldmeort to claim when the time was right.
It was IMO Dumbledore really all the way.
I don't understand what you mean. Dumbledore killed Voldemort and used Harry as a vessel? That doesn't make Harry very heroic. I would respectfully disagree. Dumbledore didn't even know what Harry would do in the final battle. Harry made up his own plan because he believed he was the Master of the Elder Wand. His plan worked. Harry is the hero who killed Voldemort, not Dumbledore, imo.

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What is duex ex machina?
It is an artificial, or improbable, character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (such as an angel suddenly appearing to solve problems). Generally used when the author gets stuck for a 'way out' of a situation.

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Voldemort did not believe him, because he thought Snape was the Master, as he killed Dumbeldore. Yes he was confused. Poor,poor Voldemort. All of Book 7 he rather lost his DL tendencies a bit IMO. lol
Yup

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Wickedwickedboy: But to be honest, per the canon, Snape did not want to die. He wanted to complete his mission - he wanted to live.
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Based upon what did you come to this conclusion?

I never thought about this, really, I don't know what to say, but I would be interested in reading your reasons for this.
In DH just before Voldemort Kills Snape, he basically tells Snape he is going to kill him. Snape repeatedly asks Voldemort to let him go and bring Harry to him. That is what made me feel that he wanted to finish his mission (give Harry the info that he had to die). Also, Snape lifts his wand at Voldemort when Voldemort makes it clear he plans to kill him - although he does not get a curse off. The canon says he looked relieved for a moment when he thought that he got a 'reprieve' from Voldemort and was not going to be killed. Then he screamed when Nagini encased him. But his relief just before that indicates that he did want to live. imo.


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Old March 9th, 2008, 4:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I think this is where our opinions vary the most. You feel that Dumbledore was certain that Harry would kill Voldemort and I assume you feel he didn't think about what would happen if Harry didn't. But I think you are failing to take into account the fact that Dumbledore was not sure if Harry would live - he hoped so. But what if Harry died, don't you think Dumbledore considered that? I believe he did. If Harry died - Snape would still be set up to die and that was fine with Dumbledore because Voldemort would still end up fighting someone other than Harry with a wand that did not belong to him.

Also, Harry had to choose to fight Voldemort in the end. Dumbledore was pretty sure he would, but what if Harry had grabbed Ginny and headed off to safety? Don't you think Dumbledore considered that? I do. I feel that Dumbledore's plans were made so that whether Harry or anyone else fought Voldemort, the dark lord would not be invincible. If Voldemort was the master of the Elder Wand, NO ONE could defeat him, because no one could defeat him without his being master of the Elder Wand, he was a very strong wizard. So that is what I was trying to say.
I thhink he was very sure that Harry would live. Not before GOF; but after, yes, I think so.

And Harry, Snape or Voldemort could ruun off; but they did not; there too, I thhink Dumbeldore knew their characters very well and based his plans on how each character would act in a particular situation and they never failed him.

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It was a possibility, but not certain that it would be Harry. So you can say that Dumbledore sacrificed Snape so that Voldemort would not be invincible and could be killed - and then say since it happened to be Harry the sacrifice happened to be for his benefit. But when you say "sacrifice for Harry" it indicates that you are doing it strictly for Harry, but that wasn't the case here.
Harry was the *Chosen One*. He also had a bit of a NOT horcrux inside his body that had to destroyed, before he could even think of winning. Voldemort's and Harry's wand shared a powerful and deep magic. In a fight bertween the other wands and Harry's wands, Harry's wand triumphed because of the magic between Harry and Voldemort. The EW was not like that. It recognized no master except magical power and had to be won to make the wand work for the owner.

To make Voldmeort mortal. For whom?

Harry.

Die and make Voldemort think he is the owner of the EW so that the said wand does not work for him. Against whom?

Harry.

Snape's sacrifice anyway you see it, was for Harry and the WW at large of course.

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I don't understand what you mean. Dumbledore killed Voldemort and used Harry as a vessel? That doesn't make Harry very heroic. I would respectfully disagree. Dumbledore didn't even know what Harry would do in the final battle. Harry made up his own plan because he believed he was the Master of the Elder Wand. His plan worked. Harry is the hero who killed Voldemort, not Dumbledore, imo.
Sure he did. Harry was a 17 years old kid, already facing so much and who had been through so much in his 17 and a bit years.

I think Dumbledore wanted to clear up a lot more for Harry, before he died. Find more horcruxes, a lot more stuff he wanted set in place for Harry to win.

Now I am not saying Harry was incapable or he was lacking in anything. But he was a 17 year old, and he was in a position where he had to fight the most evil DL ever. DD would have wanted to do everything, to make things easy for him.

And Harry's a hero! No doubt about that in my mind, because of all the brilliant things he did, in the books. But the Elder wand was very much Dumbledore and he set up Snape to die, intentionally so that Harry would face Voldemort with a wand that would NOT work for him. It was fortunate that Harry won the EW as well. Otherwise it was Dumbledore's plan, assisted by Snape unknowingly as far as the EW was concerned; assisted by those who played the 7 Potters as far as the 7 Potters were concerned. Those 2 instances we saw in the books are IMO directly connected to Harry's win over Voldemort and Harry was every bit a player on Dumbeldore's playing field as was Snape, the 7 Potters etc., etc...

It was Dumbledore's plan that Harry, Snape and Voldemort fulfilled IMO.

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It is an artificial, or improbable, character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (such as an angel suddenly appearing to solve problems). Generally used when the author gets stuck for a 'way out' of a situation.
Thanks! An angel huh? Okay that's Snape for Harry.

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Yup
Really pathetic DL.

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In DH just before Voldemort Kills Snape, he basically tells Snape he is going to kill him. Snape repeatedly asks Voldemort to let him go and bring Harry to him. That is what made me feel that he wanted to finish his mission (give Harry the info that he had to die). Also, Snape lifts his wand at Voldemort when Voldemort makes it clear he plans to kill him - although he does not get a curse off. The canon says he looked relieved for a moment when he thought that he got a 'reprieve' from Voldemort and was not going to be killed. Then he screamed when Nagini encased him. But his relief just before that indicates that he did want to live. imo.
Okay. But Snape does not lift his wand I think, Before that could happen, Nagini is released and Snape's attacked I think.

I am still confused about this Snape living, wanting to die. Because once I started thinking about the EW and the implications of that on Snape, Dumbeldore and Harry, I really don't know what to think. I feel I must come to a conclusion about this elder wand first. And it eludes me truly.

ETA :: I just edited one part of this post as I wrongly wrote confused about your post, my post and everything. LOL; I need to get away from Snape, Dumbledore and the Elder wand. It's frying my brain.


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Old March 12th, 2008, 9:36 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Please forgive my late remarks to this thread, I would have been here before if I had known of it. I privately had come to the conclusion that DD had set Snape up to die by LV, and stating that in another thread, a mod referred me to this magnificient, thought-provoking thread. I've spent the last several hours reading it through.

Now, what if LV had allowed Snape to get Harry - what would have happened? Would Snape have been able to overcome his loathing of Harry long enough to pass on the message? Would Harry been able to sense the importance of this from Snape? Or would he have thought that Snape was just goading him once more?

DD 'knew' that LV would want to keep Nagini close by after he found out about the destroyed horcruxes, but not being omniscient, DD couldn't have known about the magical cage that he was keeping Nagini protected in. This is significant because, as for Harry later, the cage meant that an attack on Nagini would mean a two pronged attack - once for the cage, and once for the snake itself. I feel that Snape didn't anticipate an attack by Nagini, but rather thought he would have to defend against an Avada Kedavra, once LV declared his intent to kill him. I feel that this was why he had his wand raised, but didn't use it.

Regarding DD's setting up Snape to die, I have an even less palatable reason for it: Snape's lack of repentance.

Snape, having heard at least part of the prophecy, knew that Harry was the object of LV's potential attack. He knew Harry was the 'Chosen One'. Given his want for revenge for killing Lily, why didn't he get behind Harry and give him the benefit of all his prodigious knowledge and skills? For the simple reason that Harry had the unmitigated gall to grow into looking like his father.

Snape never took into account that while Harry broke rules, it was never to cause trouble, but always to save someone or to prevent LV from gaining power. Snape knew that Harry protected the Philosopher's Stone, saved Ginny and killed the basilisk, fought LV in the graveyard, and escaped, etc. Snape took one look at Harry at the 1st sorting ceremony and took an instant dislike of the boy. He humiliated him in his 1st potions class, and it went downhill from there. His behavior was appalling for a teacher, not only toward Harry, but also toward Neville, who was, as he knew, an also-ran for the 'Chosen One'. DD even chided him for giving Harry so much detention.

Besides the looks of his enemy, I believe that Snape hated him because he didn't look like Snape, ie, that Snape, if he had married Lily would have been his father, not James.

Back to my previous statement, DD set him up because, no matter how many chances he got to help and protect him, Snape made things more difficult for Harry, who had already had a very tough life, all for an irrational premise that Harry had no control over. In the 6-7 years where they were exposed to each other, Snape never made any move to reconcile with Harry, who was, in DD's eyes, a remarkable hero. To DD, who always gave everyone a second chance, this was unforgiveable, and despite Snape's loyalty to DD, made him still somewhat suspect. It was set up so that if Snape was to escape with his life, he would have to do it on his own. DD would not plan to help him, because Snape had never tried to help Harry, though he did protect him at DD's wishes.

FGM



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  #288  
Old March 12th, 2008, 9:49 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther View Post
Back to my previous statement, DD set him up because, no matter how many chances he got to help and protect him, Snape made things more difficult for Harry, who had already had a very tough life, all for an irrational premise that Harry had no control over. In the 6-7 years where they were exposed to each other, Snape never made any move to reconcile with Harry, who was, in DD's eyes, a remarkable hero. To DD, who always gave everyone a second chance, this was unforgiveable, and despite Snape's loyalty to DD, made him still somewhat suspect. It was set up so that if Snape was to escape with his life, he would have to do it on his own. DD would not plan to help him, because Snape had never tried to help Harry, though he did protect him at DD's wishes.FGM
Actually I proposed the same reason some time ago, but with respect to James - although I think your idea is very valid as well. It could have been a two fold reason that Dumbledore had for setting Snape up with little chance of his being able to do anything about it. His inability to let go of his loathing (and thus find remorse for his actions toward) James and that which you suggsted with respect to Harry.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Okay. But Snape does not lift his wand I think, Before that could happen, Nagini is released and Snape's attacked I think.
But he did, just when he realized Voldemort meant to kill him at that minute. DH says that he lifted his wand.

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I am still confused about this Snape living, wanting to die. Because once I started thinking about the EW and the implications of that on Snape, Dumbeldore and Harry, I really don't know what to think. I feel I must come to a conclusion about this elder wand first. And it eludes me truly.
Well don't you think that Snape would want to get the message to Harry before he died? That is why I believe he was insisting that Voldemort allow him to bring Harry to him.


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Old March 12th, 2008, 8:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther View Post
Now, what if LV had allowed Snape to get Harry - what would have happened? Would Snape have been able to overcome his loathing of Harry long enough to pass on the message? Would Harry been able to sense the importance of this from Snape? Or would he have thought that Snape was just goading him once more?
If Snape had been allowed to get Harry, then we would have been privileged to witness what in my opinion would have been the most wonderful Snape/Harry conversation, and for me personally, that would have been the highlight in all the 7 Harry Potter books. And I also firmly believe that Snape would have surely handed over the said message to Harry. But I also think that he may not have told Harry the things he did through the memories.

Quote:
DD 'knew' that LV would want to keep Nagini close by after he found out about the destroyed horcruxes, but not being omniscient, DD couldn't have known about the magical cage that he was keeping Nagini protected in. This is significant because, as for Harry later, the cage meant that an attack on Nagini would mean a two pronged attack - once for the cage, and once for the snake itself. I feel that Snape didn't anticipate an attack by Nagini, but rather thought he would have to defend against an Avada Kedavra, once LV declared his intent to kill him. I feel that this was why he had his wand raised, but didn't use it.
But Dumbledore did. He says

DH – TPT

“There will come a time --- after my time --- after my death, do not argue, do not interrupt! There will come a time when Lord Voldemort will seem to fear for the life of his snake.”

“For Nagini?” Snape looked astonished.

“Precisely. If there comes a time when Lord Voldemort stops sending that snake forth to do his bidding but keeps it safe beside him under magical protection, then I think it will be safe to tell Harry.”


So Dumbledore knew, and Snape I think raised his wand when he heard Voldemort speak about the Elder Wand, but by then I think Voldemort had released Nagini, who attacked him.

But I agree that Snape did not think Voldemort would use Nagini to kill him. That may have surprised him.

Quote:
Regarding DD's setting up Snape to die, I have an even less palatable reason for it: Snape's lack of repentance.
Sure. But I would like to know why you felt Snape was lacking in repentence to be redeemed more and why do you think Dumbledore could arrange for Snape’s redemption? Was he that powerful or perfect that he could arrange for the redemption of another. I do not agree. I do not think Dumbledore could set up Snape to die because he felt Snape was unrepentant. I think he set up Snape to die, because that was the only way I think Dumbledore felt Harry could win the war.

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Snape, having heard at least part of the prophecy, knew that Harry was the object of LV's potential attack. He knew Harry was the 'Chosen One'. Given his want for revenge for killing Lily, why didn't he get behind Harry and give him the benefit of all his prodigious knowledge and skills? For the simple reason that Harry had the unmitigated gall to grow into looking like his father.
I respectfully disagree. I really don’t think Snape could teach Harry anything, without Dumbledore’s approval or permission. Harry may have been the Dursleys ward, but he was Dumbledore’s from the time he came to Hogwarts, and I think Dumbledore kept a very close eye on Harry.

i don’t think Snape or even McGonagall could just walk up to Harry and teach them anything, if Dumbledore did not approve. Harry was the centre around which the fate of the Wizarding World hung. One of Sirius's first questions to Harry was if Harry would come to live with him.

But Harry never went to live with Sirius who was his Godfather. Dumbledore decided that the blood protection was paramount and Harry must go to the Dursleys, and Harry went. That was the control Dumbledore had, not only over Harry, but also over Snape IMO.

Snape hated James. I have no doubt about it and nor do I find it surprising. But I do not think Snape hated Harry. I think Snape came to care for Harry.

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Besides the looks of his enemy, I believe that Snape hated him because he didn't look like Snape, ie, that Snape, if he had married Lily would have been his father, not James.
I think Snape wanted to have what Lily had with James; yes. But I don’t believe Snape hated Harry.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Well don't you think that Snape would want to get the message to Harry before he died? That is why I believe he was insisting that Voldemort allow him to bring Harry to him.
I am starting slow here again. , before I rush and get confused again LOL.

Yes, I do. For the message. But, I was thinking about Snape living/dying on the whole.

If Snape knew about the Elder Wand, then he was willing to die. And if Snape did not know about the EW, then dying at THAT time, may not have made sense.

And while I believe that he did not know about the EW, my view of Dumbledore has changed, and this ommission does not fit in with that view of Dumbledore. I think that's my confusion, well among others.


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Old March 14th, 2008, 12:47 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post

Sure. But I would like to know why you felt Snape was lacking in repentence to be redeemed more and why do you think Dumbledore could arrange for Snape’s redemption? Was he that powerful or perfect that he could arrange for the redemption of another. I do not agree. I do not think Dumbledore could set up Snape to die because he felt Snape was unrepentant. I think he set up Snape to die, because that was the only way I think Dumbledore felt Harry could win the war.

I respectfully disagree. I really don’t think Snape could teach Harry anything, without Dumbledore’s approval or permission. Harry may have been the Dursleys ward, but he was Dumbledore’s from the time he came to Hogwarts, and I think Dumbledore kept a very close eye on Harry.

I don’t think Snape or even McGonagall could just walk up to Harry and teach him anything, if Dumbledore did not approve. Harry was the centre around which the fate of the Wizarding World hung. One of Sirius's first questions to Harry was if Harry would come to live with him.

But Harry never went to live with Sirius who was his Godfather. Dumbledore decided that the blood protection was paramount and Harry must go to the Dursleys, and Harry went. That was the control Dumbledore had, not only over Harry, but also over Snape IMO.

Snape hated James. I have no doubt about it and nor do I find it surprising. But I do not think Snape hated Harry. I think Snape came to care for Harry.

I think Snape wanted to have what Lily had with James; yes. But I don’t believe Snape hated Harry.
When I wrote the part about 'repentance', I couldn't think of another word to express what I meant. What I was referring to was Snape's inability to get over his hate of James and take Harry as a separate individual. Even if he couldn't teach him anything, he could have at least stopped making Harry's life miserable. He was always goading him, and humiliating him whenever he could - for instance, where he read aloud the newspaper Witch Weekly, in class.

I can't believe that he didn't hate Harry - there were too many instances where he gave him zeroes, or gave him detention, or took points from Gryffindor unfairly. Yes, Harry did deserve to be punished for sectumsempra, but there were times he didn't deserve any detention, nor did book Snape ever give him any recognition for his acts of bravery.

Snape didn't act like a mature adult teacher. Intimidation is not an effective learning technique. In occlumency, not once did he tell Harry 'how' to block his mind. {I'm not a witch, but I could have given better instructions - picture a blank white wall, to empty your mind, and if someone is trying to penetrate it, mentally build a brick wall which they can't penetrate. These are basic mind-reading tricks, but they work. As a natural at mind-reading, I've seen this work, and taught others.}

If Snape is truly a legilimens, he should have known how to help Harry to get there. I think he was using these as a way to 'get' to Harry, to prove that Harry was mediocre, weak, etc. Teacher/student roles should not be adversarial, but only the teacher has any control over that.

FGM


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  #291  
Old March 14th, 2008, 1:18 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Besides, JKR said that Snape loathed Harry. There is nothing in canon to indicate that she was incorrect, imo. Snape himself told Harry he was nothing more than a 'nasty little boy' to him (GoF); that he loathed James was evident and Snape repeatedly told Harry he was just like his father = he loathed Harry too. Dumbledore asked Snape if he cared for Harry and Snape basically said no, whipping out his doe patronus to show that all of his positive feelings were for Lily with respect to anything he did for Harry. His treatment of Harry and the way he spoke to him also indicated his loathing of Harry during the Hogwarts years. Dumbledore tried to point out Harry's good points to Snape, but Snape denied them and/or refused to see Harry that way. Snape was looking at Harry on his death bed, yet he grabbed his robes and said "look at me" because Harry was not meeting his eyes. Not because he wanted to look upon Harry (which he already was), but so he could see Lily's eyes for a quick second before he died.

I think there is adequate proof in the series to show JKR's statement that Snape loathed Harry to be true. I think Dumbledore knew this and that is why he gave Snape the task of telling Harry he must die. Snape was the only person in the wizard world who would not back out of the job because for Snape it would mean telling this child he loathed that he must die - no big deal. Imo, if Snape felt anything other than loathing for Harry, he would have not been able to relay the news because Snape didn't know that Harry had a chance to survive, Dumbledore made sure of that. Dumbledore knew what might stop Snape from relaying the important message: Snape's knowing that Harry might end up an unqualified hero after all for killing Voldemort. That would make Harry way too much like James in Snape's eyes who had not only saved Snape's life, but had given his life to try to save his wife and child - not to mention kids at Hogwarts heroized him for his Quidditch play. Many had thought of Harry as a hero, but his reputation as a hero had waned during Hogwarts, and further still when he was accused of killing Dumbledore. Harry's regaining that status in the eyes of the world would not make Snape happy because he refused to see Harry that way as he repeatedly told him from books 1 - 6, and like James, he didn't want anyone else to see Harry as a hero either, imo.


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Old March 14th, 2008, 1:48 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Dumbledore knew what might stop Snape from relaying the important message: Snape's knowing that Harry might end up an unqualified hero after all for killing Voldemort.
Are you suggesting that Snape would not have given Harry the message about needing to die if he had thought Harry would survive and become a hero?

Doesn't that rather miss the point of the entire plot, that Snape wants Voldemort defeated for Lily Potter's sake? Intrinsic to the thing about Harry needing to die is that this will somehow bring about Voldemort's fall; otherwise what on earth is Harry dying for? Therefore, if Snape doesn't obey Dumble's orders and give Harry that message, then he is undermining everything he was working for.


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Old March 14th, 2008, 1:57 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

WWB.... how, then, do you explain Snape's objection to Dumbledore, when he actually accuses Dumbledore of having raised Harry like a lamb for the slaughter (or some similar words anyway)?


I thought that was startling, and I think Snape AND Dumbldore were startled, too when Snape said it!

Dumbledore asks him sarcastically whether he cares about Harry after all (and I think the question betrays his surprise).

I think at that point Snape realises what he has just admitted and quickly turns round the whole thing by showing off his patronus.

But I think he is actually disingenuous at that moment... I think if you have played one role for so long (and in the case of Snape's opinions about Harry also believed it yourself) you would be shocked to find yourself admitting that you have actually had a change of heart without fully noticing it.

I think that's what we see there.

I am not saying that Snape no longer dislikes Harry at that point. Human emotions are complex enough to allow us to hold contradictory positions at the same time (and most of us do this all the time, in some way or other). But I think that over the years something like a grudging admiration or understanding for Harry has crept up on Snape, and that particular moment, when Dumbledore tells him that he is sending harry to his death, makes Snape realise this. To his own surprise (and not exactly to his delight!)....

I think it is a great moment, actually!


But in the end Snape WOULD presumably always prioritise the fall of Voldemort - in that respect I agree with Pearl's interpretation.


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Old March 14th, 2008, 1:58 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Are you suggesting that Snape would not have given Harry the message about needing to die if he had thought Harry would survive and become a hero?

Doesn't that rather miss the point of the entire plot, that Snape wants Voldemort defeated for Lily Potter's sake? Intrinsic to the thing about Harry needing to die is that this will somehow bring about Voldemort's fall; otherwise what on earth is Harry dying for? Therefore, if Snape doesn't obey Dumble's orders and give Harry that message, then he is undermining everything he was working for.
That is a good point and would be very persuasive if Snape hadn't put his personal feelings over the need to crush Voldemort when he stopped Harry's occulmency lessons. Dumbledore stressed the importance of the lessons to Snape which Snape reiterated at #12 when asked why he was giving them instead of someone else. And of course we saw the devastating results of Harry not learning Occulmency. Note, I am not blaming anyone here, I am merely saying that despite the importance of the lessons in the overall fight against Voldemort (which at the time Snape believed necessitated keeping Harry safe at all costs) Snape washed his hands of the lessons. It makes it perfectly clear that Snape would indeed twart the cause of defeating Voldemort for personal reasons - despite his wanting to do so for Lily.

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WWB.... how, then, do you explain Snape's objection to Dumbledore, when he actually accuses Dumbledore of having raised Harry like a lamb for the slaughter (or some similar words anyway)?
Because it is overwhemingly obvious to me that Snape was shocked, surprised and completely taken aback that Dumbledore could have done such a thing. It had nothing whatsoever to do with who he had done it to, only that he had done it at all. It was completely and utterly out of character for Dumbledore to raise Harry, Lupin, Hagrid or anyone else for the slaughter. And Snape didn't object for Harry's sake, only for being used by Dumbledore based on his feelings for Lily. JKR tried to make this very clear, imo. Prior to all of that, Snape's response to Dumbledore telling him that Harry must die did not evoke anything but the merest suprise at the news that Harry was a horcrux - admittedly that would be surprising to anyone, even Voldemort. Snape's response after ingesting the news? "'So the boy must die' he said calmly." Finally, in case readers thought Snape may have been dissembling, JKR had Dumledore flat out ask Snape if he cared for Harry. Snape declared "for him?" apparently the idea was absured, and he went on to indicate who he did care about - Lily - which is what he had just insinuated a couple of paragraphs above. I don't know how much clearer JKR could have made her intent. Nonetheless, because people still questioned how Snape felt, JKR confirmed in a post-DH interview that Snape loathed Harry.

Quote:
I am not saying that Snape no longer dislikes Harry at that point. Human emotions are complex enough to allow us to hold contradictory positions at the same time (and most of us do this all the time, in some way or other). But I think that over the years something like a grudging admiration or understanding for Harry has crept up on Snape, and that particular moment, when Dumbledore tells him that he is sending harry to his death, makes Snape realise this. To his own surprise (and not exactly to his delight!)....
I totally agree that it is possible to feel admiration and loathing for a person at the same time. Honestly, I think Snape did respect/admire Harry AND James deep down for their skill and ability, but it was something he would never admit or allow to surface. But admiration for a person's skills and successes has nothing to do with caring about someone or liking them. In an extreme example, even Voldemort's greatest enemies would have to admire his skills and abilities that led to his success - he took over the Ministry, brought Hogwarts under his heel, had the wizard world basically falling into his hands - these are amazing feats. But no one loved, liked or cared about Voldemort as a result except the DEs. Indeed, Dumbledore did respect/admire Voldemort's skills and ability and thereby did not underestimate his power - but he didn't like him.


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Old March 14th, 2008, 3:35 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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even Voldemort's greatest enemies would have to admire his skills and abilities that led to his success - he took over the Ministry, brought Hogwarts under his heel, had the wizard world basically falling into his hands - these are amazing feats. But no one loved, liked or cared about Voldemort as a result except the DEs. Indeed, Dumbledore did respect/admire Voldemort's skills and ability and thereby did not underestimate his power - but he didn't like him.
Ollivander-"Even He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things. Terrible, yes, but great."


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Old March 26th, 2008, 10:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Rightly or wrongly I was under the impression that Snape actually inheriting the Elder Wand was part of Dumbledore’s plan – wasn’t tat part of the reason he asked Snape to kill him?

Anyway question 9
Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?

Actually leads me to a theory I’ve been mulling over & I’d love to know what people think about it.

In psychology / psychotherapy there are several theories about how babes & young children cope with holding 2 very different feelings about one person. (I promise this does come back to HP!). One of these is called ‘splitting’. Basically the baby is utterly dependent on its carer (who I will refer to as mother from here on) and it is theorised that this level of dependency causes a big problem for the baby. If its carer is bad the baby will no survive and no parent can cater to the needs & whims of a baby as quickly as the child would like all the time, no matter how hard they try. To try and protect itself the baby splits the care into two different people I its own mind.

The baby is thus looked after by two carer a good one and a bad one the baby is then free to feel anger & rage at the bad carer without damaging its relationship with the good carer. This trait is can also been seen as a coping mechanism in later life when one is trying to deal with extreme circumstances (eg the good dad / bad dad split some people make when trying to deal with the effects of incest/child abuse) As the child grows up it has to merge these 2 very different views of one person, this takes time sometimes its not until we reach adulthood that we ca see our parents as simply people, a bid good a bit bad; just normal really.

Ok back to HP, Dumbledore Snape &. Question 9. I would argue that that Dumbledore & Snape are the 2 father figures in Harry’s life once he gets to Hogwarts. I know a lot of other people have had that label but I honestly can’t see, Hagrid, Sirius etc as actual father figures. I’m guessing I don’t need to say which is the good dad & which is the bad dad.

But there’s more to it. When the books start Harry knows almost nothing about his parents but very quickly begins to idolise James. While this is normal it is not a realistic view of James Potter. I think that Dumbledore & Snape become an externalised expression of Harry’s journey to gain a realistic view of his father.

Really why?

Because in the first few books Harry’s opinions of all 3 (Dumbledore, Snape & James) are both very stable and consistent regardless of any evidence Harry may come across. His opinions of all three change at very similar times. Dumbledore, who has always had time for Harry, becomes evasive and starts to ignore Harry – who is hugely effected by this change in behaviour. Then, not long after this, Harry see’s some of Snape’s memory in the pensive and finds himself not only questioning his opinion of Snape but also of James. Ok so that doesn’t last very long. But these parallel opinion shifts continue throughout the series until the very end of HBP when everything is thrown into turmoil when Snape kills Dumbledore. Not much later (in terms of HP’s life) his opinion of Dumbledore suffer a similar blow with ‘the life & lies of Albus Dumbledore’. As DH continues he begins finally to resolve both images into something a little more realistic.

I’ve always seen the naming of Albus Severus Potter as a sign that Harry has finally merged the good father & the bad father into one person; one who he loves just for being himself.

Ok – is this just a totally nutty idea or is it possible the my mulling has something to it?


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  #297  
Old March 27th, 2008, 6:39 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I like your ideas, kittling! Especially because in DH, we learn that the 'good father' and the 'bad father' have always been working together behind the scenes to accomplish the same goal, namely, to ensure Harry's survival in very difficult circumstances


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  #298  
Old March 27th, 2008, 8:51 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?


I don't think Harry loved Dumbledore. A week or so ago, I felt he likely still had affection for him, but upon thinking about it, I don't think he even felt that. He did serve as a father figure in Harry's eyes at one time, but he would not want to emulate him anymore or serve as a guide in any way because Dumbledore didn't turn out to be the man Harry believed he was. I think he was 'just okay' to Harry. I think Harry disliked Snape altogether. However, Harry didn't hold a grudge in either case; he basically let the negative feelings so. But if you asked him, that is the truth I think he would impart.

But Dumbledore and Snape worked together for the cause and their goal was good (destroy Voldemort) and from Dumbledore's perspective, he at least *hoped* Harry would live to be a part of the wizard world he was sacrificing him for. Snape on the other hand, believed Harry would die in sacrifice and even knowing that, he never treated Harry any better. In fact, his behavior toward Harry was at its worst in the series, after he found out.

I think Dumbledore purposely kept the information that Harry might live from Snape for two reasons. One, he didn't want it to leak to Voldemort, but also because he felt it might garner some sympathy in Snape for Harry and cause him to treat Harry better. However, that didn't work out at all as we saw in HBP. Nonethe less, Dumbledore had "raised Harry for the Slaughter" and although Snape couldn't believe that Dumbledore was capable of doing something so fiendish, he fell in with the plan and kept the secret, planning with Dumbledore to direct Harry to Voldemort so the Dark Lord could kill him.

It was a very distasteful plot and one that Harry should have been made aware of. In any case, I don't think Harry is unintelligent, and so while he has the compassion to forgive and even honor these two people: one who gave his life (Dumbledore) and one who was also set up by Dumbledore and killed by Voldy (Snape) within the web of their plotting, I don't think either man left a good taste in Harry's mouth.

Dumbledore and Snape together behaved in a rather unscrupulous manner in crafting for Harry's demise and Voldemort's downfall. In essence they were willing to kill both the hero and the villain and something about that just does not smell right, imo. In that way I do believe that Dumbledore and Snape were inexorably linked in Harry's mind.


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  #299  
Old March 27th, 2008, 11:32 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

WWB, I don't think that this quite squares up. Why on earth would Harry name his son Albus if it would remind him of someone he didn't actually remember with love? A second name is a slightly different thing - you don't use that every day, and so the argument about Severus as a name is less strong.

I guess this is going off track in this thread, but I hope it is OK to reply anyway....

Where the disagreement arises (IMHO) is in your way of thinking about love, and how it works.... I quote just the crucial bit of your post, or the crucial bit as I see it for this argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
...
I don't think Harry loved Dumbledore. A week or so ago, I felt he likely still had affection for him, but upon thinking about it, I don't think he even felt that. He did serve as a father figure in Harry's eyes at one time, but he would not want to emulate him anymore or serve as a guide in any way because Dumbledore didn't turn out to be the man Harry believed he was. I think he was 'just okay' to Harry. .... (my emphasis)
Reading this I am not sure whether you are confusing admiration and love. The point about love is that you can love people even if you don't admire them. Sure, Harry had learned that Dumbledore wasn't wholly admirable, that he had at times acted despicably, and dealt with Harry himself in a less than ideal manner (to say the least!).

But love wouldn't be what it is if it couldn't continue regardless.


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Last edited by Klio; March 27th, 2008 at 3:15 pm.
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  #300  
Old March 27th, 2008, 1:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I always had the impression that Harry came to terms with Dumbledore's plan - he understood why Dumbledore's had used him. The reason I believe this to be the case comes back to choices, in the end Harry knew he could just walk away but he chose to carry on Dumbledore's plan. To me that seems to imply understanding (& very likely the condoning ) of Dumbledore’s motives.


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