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  #1481  
Old November 4th, 2011, 7:54 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
It might be we need to know more about dementors to even speculate as to why they were accepted by the wizarding world. Can they be killed?
I wonder how much the Wizarding world "accepted" dementors. Hagrid, Dumbledore, Ernie, and Harry are all horribly afraid of them. While Fudge says that half of his constituents sleep soundly at night knowing the dementors watch Azkaban - and I do not doubt there is some truth in it - I think that the wizards' "acceptance" of the dementors is due to their utility, but also their own ignorance and separation. Most wizards do not have to experience the dementors - they do not have to think about the dangers of dementors affecting them while the dementors are in place at Azkaban. So I think the Wizarding world accepted the subservience and control over the dementors, not the actual creatures themselves. And I think that is largely because dementors cannot be killed - at least by Wizarding magic.

We see the Patronus Charm used countless times against the dementors for protection, but nothing akin to an Avada Kedavra to completely eradicate the dementors. To me, that indicates that dementors can be controlled, but not killed by wizards. Perhaps they die when they are starved or when too much positivity abounds. We know they can breed, which, I think, means they can die. But I think their deaths would be caused by an inability to live (i.e. poor conditions, not enough food, etc.) rather than a special spell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
If not, then something would have to be done with them and prison guard at Azkaban might be the only way to distract them from the rest of the population--they would have no choice.
I completely agree with this. The stationing of dementors over Azkaban could easily have been a Ministry decision to control the population of dementors: isolate them in one regulated place so that they are not randomly attacking witches and wizards. In OotP Fudge is under the impression that there were no dementors outside of Ministry control, which indicates that, before Voldemort's rebirth, the Ministry did control the entire dementor population of Britain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
DD suggests to Fudge to remove dementors as guards over LV's imprisoned DE's, but he doesn't suggest that the dementors be done away with.
I wonder if everyone here agrees with Dumbledore's advice? Banish the dementors from Azkaban and find an alternative for monitoring the imprisoned Death Eaters? Do you think this would have simply led to easier control/manipulation of the dementors by Voldemort? But balancing the good with the bad, perhaps the Death Eaters would have remained imprisoned (at least through OotP). It is a fascinating question, and a difficult choice because I see both good and bad in both scenarios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
We don't know if they participated in the first war or not, do we? If they did not, Dumbledore was projecting, based on what he knew of dementor "psychology," how LV could persuade the dementors to support him.
There seems to be no indication, that I can find, that dementors participated in the First War - or, at least, that Voldemort controlled them. He tells his Death Eaters in the graveyard that, "The dementors will join us, they are our natural allies..." But one wonders why Voldemort would not have employed them in the First War, as they were certainly in place when Snape and Lily were ~10 years old (and Voldemort's rise to power lasted roughly 10 more years). We know Voldemort had the help of giants and Inferi in the First War. Perhaps using dementors did not occur to him, as he did not have to break Azkaban in order to achieve the majority of his followers (unlike in OotP).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Otherwise his prediction was based on experience. Either way, Fudge should have taken precautions.
Fudge should have, at the very least, opened his mind to allow the possibility of the truth to enter. As it were, he completely disregarded the possibility, hence the situation in which he left the Wizarding world.

I wonder: Umbridge is often scorned (and understandably so) by so many fans. But I rarely see that sort of disdain attached to Fudge. While Umbridge was much more visually antagonistic, I cannot help but wonder that Fudge was much more detrimental and hurtful towards not only Harry but the Order, Hogwarts, and the entire Wizarding world. While I rarely "blame" characters, I think Fudge is worthy of more blame and scorn than it seems he receives.

Some thoughts on GoF as a whole:

One detail I forgot while discussing the term "Death Eaters" was this statement by JKR:
Paxman, Jeremy, interviewer. "JK's OOTP interview," BBC Newsnight 19 June 2003.JEREMY PAXMAN: And these scraps of paper which you've filed elegantly in a carrier, they're plot ideas or ...

JK ROWLING: Well some of them are totally redundant now because its been written and I keep them out of sentimentality's sake, I suppose. But some of it has backstory in it like this - in here is the history of the Death Eaters and I don't know that I'll ever actually need it - but at some point - which were once called something different - they were called the Knights of Walpurgis. I don't know if I'll need it. But I like knowing it. I like to keep that sort of stuff on hand.

So the Death Eaters were originally called the "Knights of Walpurgis." What do you think of this? The namesake seems to be Walpurgis Night - a celebration on 30 April that is 6 months separated from Halloween. It is believed to be a night when witches and demons could roam Earth. Incidentally, Sirius's mother was named Walburga. Do you think that would have been a more fitting name for Voldemort's followers?

JKR once mentioned that her editor thought SS/PS was too long for a children's book. Obviously, GoF shatters that length by quite a bit. Do you think GoF is overly long? What would you have cut (if anything), or would you have even added something?

With that idea, would you call GoF a "children's book" at all? (Or, for that matter, the Harry Potter series in general?)

Do you agree that GoF is the turning point in the series?

Does anyone have a favorite chapter, scene, or quote from this book?


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  #1482  
Old November 5th, 2011, 1:46 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

I've not responded to your comments on Fudge and the Dementors because I agree with them all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Some thoughts on GoF as a whole:

One detail I forgot while discussing the term "Death Eaters" was this statement by JKR:
Paxman, Jeremy, interviewer. "JK's OOTP interview," BBC Newsnight 19 June 2003.JEREMY PAXMAN: And these scraps of paper which you've filed elegantly in a carrier, they're plot ideas or ...

JK ROWLING: Well some of them are totally redundant now because its been written and I keep them out of sentimentality's sake, I suppose. But some of it has backstory in it like this - in here is the history of the Death Eaters and I don't know that I'll ever actually need it - but at some point - which were once called something different - they were called the Knights of Walpurgis. I don't know if I'll need it. But I like knowing it. I like to keep that sort of stuff on hand.

So the Death Eaters were originally called the "Knights of Walpurgis." What do you think of this? The namesake seems to be Walpurgis Night - a celebration on 30 April that is 6 months separated from Halloween. It is believed to be a night when witches and demons could roam Earth. Incidentally, Sirius's mother was named Walburga. Do you think that would have been a more fitting name for Voldemort's followers?
I'm not very partial to the name 'Knights of Walpurgis', largely because knights to me are honourable people and Voldemort's followers weren't. I don't exactly know what JKR meant by 'Death Eaters' but the name sounds suitably ominous and I think was a more fitting choice.
Quote:
JKR once mentioned that her editor thought SS/PS was too long for a children's book. Obviously, GoF shatters that length by quite a bit. Do you think GoF is overly long? What would you have cut (if anything), or would you have even added something?
I was a bit surprised at the size of GoF when I bought my copy but as I reckon you can't have too much of a good thing, I was pleased about it. I didn't find it overly long but I wonder if some of the children who had been following Harry did. Maybe some people who read it as a child would comment?
Quote:
With that idea, would you call GoF a "children's book" at all? (Or, for that matter, the Harry Potter series in general?)
Good point. It's not a children's book in quite the way that the first three were, but my 4 year old grandson, who has so far only seen selected scenes from the movies, likes GoF one of the best. It's the tournament scenes he likes best - and if they had made the maze like the book he'd have loved that - he loves monsters! I think the books get generally darker in tone although not necessarily in content - there was some scary stuff in all the earlier ones (my grandson is looking forward to the day I consider him old enough to see the basilisk!) but the pressure on Harry gets significanly worse as the series goes on and his youthful innocent enthusiasm for danger becomes a more mature concern with the fight against Voldemort. Whether young children would be able to appreciate that as much as they did the early adventures I don't really know.
Quote:
Do you agree that GoF is the turning point in the series?
Yes, definitely, for several reasons. Firstly, as you pointed out, it is the leap from comparatively short adventure books into something bigger and deeper. It's the book in which we realise that the students are not really safe from Voldemort (the death of Cedric was a real shock to me and was the point when I realised these weren't just going to be children's books). It's the book where we finally see Voldemort and the Death Eaters together and realise what Dumbledore and Harry are actually up against. Harry had come up against Voldemort as the controller of Quirrell and as Tom Riddle, and had overcome both, but from GoF on, Harry is up against Voldemort in all his old power - and with a desire to kill Harry personally. The story changes gear in my opinion after GoF and Harry's future path is pretty much laid out for him.
Quote:
Does anyone have a favorite chapter, scene, or quote from this book?
I particularly like Ron's comments and efforts at getting a date for the Yule Ball!


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  #1483  
Old November 5th, 2011, 3:09 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Just to answer a few questions at the moment:

I've always seen GoF as the turning point of the series. First obviously is because we see Lord Voldemort return. Second, is the loss of innoncence that is Cedric's death, it sets a darker tone of the series and what's to come in the following books. Almost like it's preparing us for more deaths and shows us the ruthlessness of Voldemort himself. When I first read GoF, I was either ten or eleven. I was apprehensive about it's size only because I was only just getting into reading with Potter. I wouldn't change anything about it's size. I've also never viewed the boks as a children's series, I've always seen it as more than that, and especiaaly now that I've seen how the series has ended. I'm hoping that one day it'll loose it's classification as a children's story. My favrite chapter of the series is Flesh, Blood, and Bone; it's probably one of my favorites of the series. Even to this day reading that line "Lord Voldemort has risen again" still gives me chills. I also love Prior Incantatem, when we see the duel between Harry and Voldemort.

That's all for now.


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  #1484  
Old November 6th, 2011, 8:54 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I wonder if everyone here agrees with Dumbledore's advice? Banish the dementors from Azkaban and find an alternative for monitoring the imprisoned Death Eaters? Do you think this would have simply led to easier control/manipulation of the dementors by Voldemort? But balancing the good with the bad, perhaps the Death Eaters would have remained imprisoned (at least through OotP). It is a fascinating question, and a difficult choice because I see both good and bad in both scenarios.
There is the problem of where they would put the dementors if they aren't at Azkaban. Again we'd need more info. Is there a suspended animation spell? Maybe something like that would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I wonder: Umbridge is often scorned (and understandably so) by so many fans. But I rarely see that sort of disdain attached to Fudge. While Umbridge was much more visually antagonistic, I cannot help but wonder that Fudge was much more detrimental and hurtful towards not only Harry but the Order, Hogwarts, and the entire Wizarding world. While I rarely "blame" characters, I think Fudge is worthy of more blame and scorn than it seems he receives.
And he escapes death by, what, a few months? There's simply no justice!

I think he's just more of a politician than Umbridge. She has such a manipulative veneer of congeniality about her, so obviously fake that she sets your teeth on edge. Good (?-more likely effective) politicians actually like people and have an organic genuineness that let's them lie through their teeth and still make you believe they are angels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Some thoughts on GoF as a whole:

One detail I forgot while discussing the term "Death Eaters" was this statement by JKR:
Paxman, Jeremy, interviewer. "JK's OOTP interview," BBC Newsnight 19 June 2003.JEREMY PAXMAN: And these scraps of paper which you've filed elegantly in a carrier, they're plot ideas or ...

JK ROWLING: Well some of them are totally redundant now because its been written and I keep them out of sentimentality's sake, I suppose. But some of it has backstory in it like this - in here is the history of the Death Eaters and I don't know that I'll ever actually need it - but at some point - which were once called something different - they were called the Knights of Walpurgis. I don't know if I'll need it. But I like knowing it. I like to keep that sort of stuff on hand.

So the Death Eaters were originally called the "Knights of Walpurgis." What do you think of this?
Ick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The namesake seems to be Walpurgis Night - a celebration on 30 April that is 6 months separated from Halloween. It is believed to be a night when witches and demons could roam Earth. Incidentally, Sirius's mother was named Walburga. Do you think that would have been a more fitting name for Voldemort's followers?
Not at all! Death Eater sounds so much more ominous. Looked up Walpurgis Night on Wikipedia and it is the day before and associated with May Day, just as Halloween is the day before and associated with All Saints Day. May Day celebrates the return of planting season in the Northern Hemisphere. Possibly there's a connection to the annual return or 'resurrection' of life after winter? 'Eating Death' would bring about a renewal or resurrection of life. Or is that pushing it too far?

Sure would like to see what JKR has in her history of her DE's! Specifically how she named them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
JKR once mentioned that her editor thought SS/PS was too long for a children's book. Obviously, GoF shatters that length by quite a bit. Do you think GoF is overly long? What would you have cut (if anything), or would you have even added something?
All the books are perfect! JKR would never have gotten published if SS/PS was 800+ pages! All the kids I've talked to think the books are too short!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
With that idea, would you call GoF a "children's book" at all? (Or, for that matter, the Harry Potter series in general?)
I do believe they are mostly children's books. JKR said she wanted the books to grow up with her audience and I think she accomplished that.

An interesting tidbit: when tested children come out with very high scores on hopefulness (Seligman), so high, in fact, that they have to be graded on a separate scale. This difference vanishes by the time they become adults. I think this transition is part of the angst teenagers encounter as they mature. And the books seem to follow this "growing up." The books take this darker turn, the protagonists conquer their problems and then end up as happy adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you agree that GoF is the turning point in the series?
Yes. I think that's why the last chapter is titled "The Beginning."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Does anyone have a favorite chapter, scene, or quote from this book?
The scene where Snape leaves to return to Voldemort. The first time through we had no idea how much backstory and how imbued with consequence that moment contained.


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  #1485  
Old November 6th, 2011, 11:27 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I completely agree with this. The stationing of dementors over Azkaban could easily have been a Ministry decision to control the population of dementors: isolate them in one regulated place so that they are not randomly attacking witches and wizards. In OotP Fudge is under the impression that there were no dementors outside of Ministry control, which indicates that, before Voldemort's rebirth, the Ministry did control the entire dementor population of Britain.
Perhaps that's why they're kept at Azkaban. However, could they be kept somewhere away from humans? According to the HP wiki, sourced from "Fantastic Beasts", quintapeds are kept on an Unplottable island because they are dangerous. Could the same thing be done with Dementors? Or could they be confined without Patronuses?

Quote:
I wonder if everyone here agrees with Dumbledore's advice? Banish the dementors from Azkaban and find an alternative for monitoring the imprisoned Death Eaters? Do you think this would have simply led to easier control/manipulation of the dementors by Voldemort? But balancing the good with the bad, perhaps the Death Eaters would have remained imprisoned (at least through OotP). It is a fascinating question, and a difficult choice because I see both good and bad in both scenarios.
Trustworthy human guards might have kept the prisoners more secure - and would act to prevent the DEs from breaking their fellows out of prison. They would have sent for back-up, at the very least, and could have detained some of the escapees or non-imprisoned DEs.


Quote:
I wonder: Umbridge is often scorned (and understandably so) by so many fans. But I rarely see that sort of disdain attached to Fudge. While Umbridge was much more visually antagonistic, I cannot help but wonder that Fudge was much more detrimental and hurtful towards not only Harry but the Order, Hogwarts, and the entire Wizarding world. While I rarely "blame" characters, I think Fudge is worthy of more blame and scorn than it seems he receives.
Fudge caused more harm, as the one giving the orders, I agree. However, the reader sees more of Umbridge, and of her sadism - I think that's why I strongly dislike her more than I strongly dislike Fudge - she set soul-sucking monsters on a teenager, she forced teenagers to serve torture-detentions, she took delight in humiliating innocent people with the Dementor's Kiss. Fudge just seems more of a bungler (as Hagrid calls him), an incompetent person, who hasn't got the stomach for the truth and convinces himself of something else to avoid the facts.


Quote:
JK ROWLING: Well some of them are totally redundant now because its been written and I keep them out of sentimentality's sake, I suppose. But some of it has backstory in it like this - in here is the history of the Death Eaters and I don't know that I'll ever actually need it - but at some point - which were once called something different - they were called the Knights of Walpurgis. I don't know if I'll need it. But I like knowing it. I like to keep that sort of stuff on hand. [/fieldset]
I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing this stuff on Pottermore, eventually.

Quote:
JKR once mentioned that her editor thought SS/PS was too long for a children's book. Obviously, GoF shatters that length by quite a bit. Do you think GoF is overly long? What would you have cut (if anything), or would you have even added something?
I don't think I'd have cut anything. I can't think what to cut - the plot fits together so beautifully. Like in PoA, the little details connect so well to the big reveal.

Quote:
With that idea, would you call GoF a "children's book" at all? (Or, for that matter, the Harry Potter series in general?)
I agree with others, who have said that the series grows up along with the characters. In some ways, it is a childrens' series, but it has a universal appeal, IMO, and there are some parts that will be read differently by children and by adults.

Quote:
Do you agree that GoF is the turning point in the series?
I agree - up until this, we had loosely related adventures. Now, everything that happens follows on from Voldemort's return. (Which in turn, followed Peter Pettigrew's escape in PoA). From then on, the entire focus of the series is going to be the war against, and eventual defeat of Voldemort.

Cedric's death is also a turning point - he's one the first of the good characters that we see die, and the first that the reader got to know. Lily and James were murdered off-page, before the start of the series. The book opens with the murder of Frank Bryce, but the reader didn't get to know him.

Cedric's death lets the reader know that they don't know what's coming next - that peoples' favourite characters aren't going to be safe. This is a big change from the first three books, where everyone (apart from Quirrell, DiaryRiddle and the Basilisk) survives the big adventure at the end.


Quote:
Does anyone have a favorite chapter, scene, or quote from this book?
The graveyard chapters. They are among my favourite chapters in the entire series. They're both sad and chilling. JKR pulled off Voldemort's return brilliantly in these chapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
I'm not very partial to the name 'Knights of Walpurgis', largely because knights to me are honourable people and Voldemort's followers weren't. I don't exactly know what JKR meant by 'Death Eaters' but the name sounds suitably ominous and I think was a more fitting choice.
It does sound ominous - and it's a reference to their actions and purpose, IMO. They deal in death and destruction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
My favrite chapter of the series is Flesh, Blood, and Bone; it's probably one of my favorites of the series. Even to this day reading that line "Lord Voldemort has risen again" still gives me chills. I also love Prior Incantatem, when we see the duel between Harry and Voldemort.
I agree. I think the graveyard chapters are among the most chilling writing in the series, and I love and dread those chapters in equal measure when re-reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Not at all! Death Eater sounds so much more ominous. Looked up Walpurgis Night on Wikipedia and it is the day before and associated with May Day, just as Halloween is the day before and associated with All Saints Day. May Day celebrates the return of planting season in the Northern Hemisphere. Possibly there's a connection to the annual return or 'resurrection' of life after winter? 'Eating Death' would bring about a renewal or resurrection of life. Or is that pushing it too far?
I can't see it. Renewal of life has positive connotations, and I can't associate the DEs with anything positive or life-renewing. IMO, the term Death Eaters has a lot to do with them claiming power over life and death.

Quote:
Sure would like to see what JKR has in her history of her DE's! Specifically how she named them.
Looking forward to the day when GoF is up on Pottermore.


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  #1486  
Old November 8th, 2011, 6:24 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

A couple of things that struck me looking back over GoF: what exactly is the Goblet of Fire? Is its sole purpose to choose the TriWizard champions, or does it have other uses? And where is the thing kept between tournaments?

And when Harry's name came out of the Goblet, couldn't he have shown it wasn't in his handwriting and thus was not a legal entry? Or do wizards have ways of duplicating signatures?


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  #1487  
Old November 8th, 2011, 11:29 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
A couple of things that struck me looking back over GoF: what exactly is the Goblet of Fire? Is its sole purpose to choose the TriWizard champions, or does it have other uses? And where is the thing kept between tournaments?

And when Harry's name came out of the Goblet, couldn't he have shown it wasn't in his handwriting and thus was not a legal entry? Or do wizards have ways of duplicating signatures?
I'm wondering if the purpose of the Goblet was strictly for the Triwizard Tournament, which assumes that it would always choose three names, then how/why did it choose another? Did it recognize that there was another school?

I assume that its sole purpose is to choose the champions because someone, I forget who, says that the fire is out and won't be re-lit until the next tournament. (Or something to that effect.)

More than the handwriting, I always wondered if the school would have shown up on the paper. If Crouch Jr. did in fact enter Harry under the name of a different school, wouldn't the name of it have been written there as well?


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  #1488  
Old November 9th, 2011, 1:56 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

To answer my own questions, for once:

I wonder if everyone here agrees with Dumbledore's advice? Banish the dementors from Azkaban and find an alternative for monitoring the imprisoned Death Eaters?

I do agree with this counsel. Even if it meant relinquishing dementors from Ministry control, taking them away from Azkaban would have bolstered security over the prisoners (especially Voldemort's followers). As it were, Fudge left dementors presiding over Azkaban, and the Wizarding world continued to feel comfortable with the prisoners' security. Thus, when the dementors switched "allegiances" the Ministry had no further protection in place to confine the prisoners. While I do not think any form of security - Wizarding or magical creature - could have completely contained Voldemort's followers in Azkaban, disbanding the dementors from the prison would have prolonged the Death Eaters' escapes and alerted the Wizarding world of the seriousness of the circumstances. And, as a bonus, perhaps the Ministry could have taken precautions to isolate the dementors elsewhere so that Voldemort could not gain their utility as quickly as he did.

So the Death Eaters were originally called the "Knights of Walpurgis." What do you think of this?

I appreciate the ingenuity and meaning behind this name but, in the long run, it makes sense from both JKR's and Voldemort's perspectives. I think "Knights of Walpurgis" is too obscure to be appreciated by the masses and, unlike "Death Eaters", it does not instill fear/foreboding into others.

Do you think GoF is overly long? What would you have cut (if anything), or would you have even added something?


Given my stance as an unashamed book purist, I would undeniably leave the book intact. I feel it is a good balance among characterization, plot, and foreshadowing, and it is an excellent connector between the first 3 books and the final 3 books of the series.

During re-reads, I sometimes find myself impatient at the prospect of the beginning of GoF because I am so eager to return to Hogwarts; 10-11 chapters before getting to the school is occasionally difficult to think about. But as soon as I open the book I am immersed in the story, and I would not sacrifice any morsel of those 10 chapters.

With that idea, would you call GoF a "children's book" at all? (Or, for that matter, the Harry Potter series in general?)

I hesitate to label it as a "children's book" because of what is generally classified as "children's books." When I go to my local bookstore I see Harry Potter among books about stuffed animals, ABCs, and elementary school. I do agree that the Potter series is attractive to children, but I think the complexity of the writing and plotlines exceed the classification of children's stories. Instead, I think they are much more comparable to "young adult fiction," with GoF being the "mean" complexity for the series.

Do you agree that GoF is the turning point in the series?

Certainly. It is the centerpiece of the books, and, as I said above, it is a transitional piece between the relative innocence of Years 1-3 and the maturity of 5-7.

Does anyone have a favorite chapter, scene, or quote from this book?

I always enjoy the scenes with the Dursleys, and Mrs. Weasley's letter to Vernon and Petunia is always a favorite read of mine. I also enjoy seeing Dobby again (The House-Elf Liberation Front) and all the information and insight we receive about the Wizarding world in Padfoot Returns and The Pensieve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
There is the problem of where they would put the dementors if they aren't at Azkaban. Again we'd need more info. Is there a suspended animation spell? Maybe something like that would work.
Exactly, but seeing as how Voldemort "killed two birds with one stone," so to speak, in breaking out his Death Eaters from Azkaban and enlisting the dementors, I think taking the dementors away from Azkaban would have bought the Ministry/Wizarding world more time against Voldemort. As for a suspended animation spell, the best ones we see are, I think, Petrificus Totalus, Stupefy, and Imperio - none of which are permanent, all of which require constant attention, and which not have even worked against dementors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Perhaps that's why they're kept at Azkaban. However, could they be kept somewhere away from humans? According to the HP wiki, sourced from "Fantastic Beasts", quintapeds are kept on an Unplottable island because they are dangerous. Could the same thing be done with Dementors? Or could they be confined without Patronuses?
This goes back to my and mirrormere's questions above, and, sadly, we simply do not have enough information to really form a dominant theory. But my belief is that dementors could be confined elsewhere by wizards, but it would take constant maintenance, care, and threats. I think dementors were more or less complacent at Azkaban because they were provided a steady source of food; if that were not the case, I think they would have been much more rebellious early on. And if the Ministry tried to detain them on an island, for instance, I think an enormous Ministry task force would have to be hired to constantly upkeep the dementors' detainment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Fudge caused more harm, as the one giving the orders, I agree. However, the reader sees more of Umbridge, and of her sadism - I think that's why I strongly dislike her more than I strongly dislike Fudge - she set soul-sucking monsters on a teenager, she forced teenagers to serve torture-detentions, she took delight in humiliating innocent people with the Dementor's Kiss. Fudge just seems more of a bungler (as Hagrid calls him), an incompetent person, who hasn't got the stomach for the truth and convinces himself of something else to avoid the facts.
Given Fudge's actions of non-action in OotP, I see Fudge as much more involved and responsible. Yes, Hagrid called him a "bungler" back in SS/PS when Fudge was still owling Dumbledore every morning; but in OotP he is ambitious, power-hungry, blinded, and ruthless. And I think the reason the general readership does not focus on Fudge's responsibility is because Umbridge was so much more visible, and that readers tend to hang onto the idea that Fudge was as blubbering and incompetent as we see him in books 1-3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
A couple of things that struck me looking back over GoF: what exactly is the Goblet of Fire? Is its sole purpose to choose the TriWizard champions, or does it have other uses? And where is the thing kept between tournaments?
I think ILuvDarkMarks is correct that the Goblet's purpose is to choose 3 names from 3 separate schools, and it is magically functional only during a specific 24-hour window at the start of each Triwizard Tournament:
GoF"The champions will be chosen by an impartial selector: the Goblet of Fire."
[...]
"Once a champion has been selected by the Goblet of Fire, he or she is obliged to see the tournament through to the end. The placing of your name in the goblet constitutes a binding, magical contract."
[...]
"But Karkaroff, it doesn’t work like that," said Bagman. "The Goblet of Fire’s just gone out - it won’t reignite until the start of the next tournament -"

The Goblet seems semi-sentient in itself; in addition to choosing candidates, though, I think there is some magic attached to the Goblet that creates the "binding magical contract" under which all participants are bound (hence Dumbledore's statement quoted above).
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
And when Harry's name came out of the Goblet, couldn't he have shown it wasn't in his handwriting and thus was not a legal entry? Or do wizards have ways of duplicating signatures?
This is a curious question, but I think one could claim that, if the parchment did not have Harry's handwriting, Harry wrote purposefully differently or that he had another student write his name. I do not think it would be a conclusive defense for Harry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks
I'm wondering if the purpose of the Goblet was strictly for the Triwizard Tournament, which assumes that it would always choose three names, then how/why did it choose another? Did it recognize that there was another school?
Here is what "Moody" says:
GoF"Because they hoodwinked a very powerful magical object!" said Moody. "It would have needed an exceptionally strong Confundus Charm to bamboozle that goblet into forgetting that only three schools compete in the tournament… I’m guessing they submitted Potter’s name under a fourth school, to make sure he was the only one in his category…"

Given that "Moody" was the one who actually submitted Harry's name, I think this must have been the way he did it. What, then, of your school question, which I think is valid because of this statement by Dumbledore:
GoF"Anybody wishing to submit themselves as champion must write their name and school clearly upon a slip of parchment and drop it into the goblet."

So the school was written on the parchment - at least for the other candidates. Perhaps "Moody" hoodwinked the Goblet into recognizing Harry's name under a different school, even if the school was not written on the parchment. Or else, perhaps another school was written on the parchment, and Dumbledore simply did not read it. But I think it is clear that Harry was not, according to the Goblet of Fire and the Triwizard Tournament, a Hogwarts champion. But that would make no difference in Harry competing, so it would have been a trivial detail to, say, Karkaroff and Maxime.


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  #1489  
Old November 9th, 2011, 6:34 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
And when Harry's name came out of the Goblet, couldn't he have shown it wasn't in his handwriting and thus was not a legal entry? Or do wizards have ways of duplicating signatures?
I suppose it probably was a signature, and not block letters? It would make more sense for it to be a signature, IMO, as it was a contract. Would there be any situation where students would have to sign anything? A stolen letter would also be an option, but Harry signed his letters to his friends with his first name only in the text. Would a signature from a textbook do? Crouch Jr. could have forged the signature from Harry's textbook, or magically duplicated it. Although I don't know if a person's name written on their textbook would count as a signature. Parchment handed up for homework could also do - that would have to be signed, or at least, a name written on it. And Crouch Jr. could obtain it far more easily than stealing a textbook or a letter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks View Post
More than the handwriting, I always wondered if the school would have shown up on the paper. If Crouch Jr. did in fact enter Harry under the name of a different school, wouldn't the name of it have been written there as well?
That's a good point. And, while Harry didn't see the piece of paper, I think Dumbledore would have mentioned it, if another school had been mentioned on it. Madame Maxime and Karkaroff may also have requested to see it, before Harry arrived in the anteroom.

Could Crouch have done something to the parchment so that the name of the school wouldn't be seen? Hermione mentions Invisible Ink in CoS. Or, there could be some kind of magical ink that vanishes after a certain period of time and doesn't show up with revealing spells or Revealer "erasers". Invisible Ink would be taking the risk that Dumbledore did use a Revealer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I appreciate the ingenuity and meaning behind this name but, in the long run, it makes sense from both JKR's and Voldemort's perspectives. I think "Knights of Walpurgis" is too obscure to be appreciated by the masses and, unlike "Death Eaters", it does not instill fear/foreboding into others.
That's a good point -"Death Eaters" is immediately understood, and has clearly negative connotations, whereas "Knights of Walpurgis" would require either awareness of traditions that may not be familiar to a reader, especially many young adult readers, or else that the reader google the meaning to see what is being alluded to. Not everyone is going to do that.


Quote:
Instead, I think they are much more comparable to "young adult fiction," with GoF being the "mean" complexity for the series.
Good point, that would be a better classification for the series as a whole, while the first two books might be considered "children's books" in tone.


Quote:
I always enjoy the scenes with the Dursleys, and Mrs. Weasley's letter to Vernon and Petunia is always a favorite read of mine. I also enjoy seeing Dobby again (The House-Elf Liberation Front) and all the information and insight we receive about the Wizarding world in Padfoot Returns and The Pensieve.
The scenes with the Dursleys are good, especially watching the dynamic change as the series progresses. I love seeing Harry have some leverage with the Dursleys, particularly in CoS, PoA and GoF.

And the information about the wizarding world expands it beyond Hogwarts and into adult life in the wizarding world - fitting as the characters are growing up and becoming part of a more dangerous world.

Quote:
As for a suspended animation spell, the best ones we see are, I think, Petrificus Totalus, Stupefy, and Imperio - none of which are permanent, all of which require constant attention, and which not have even worked against dementors.
I think the Dept. of Mysteries or the Dept for Experimental Charms (not sure of the exact title) should give some of their time and funding to ways to permanently incapacitate Dementors.

Quote:
This goes back to my and mirrormere's questions above, and, sadly, we simply do not have enough information to really form a dominant theory. But my belief is that dementors could be confined elsewhere by wizards, but it would take constant maintenance, care, and threats. I think dementors were more or less complacent at Azkaban because they were provided a steady source of food; if that were not the case, I think they would have been much more rebellious early on. And if the Ministry tried to detain them on an island, for instance, I think an enormous Ministry task force would have to be hired to constantly upkeep the dementors' detainment.
I think that may be the case - it would take a lot of people to keep the Dementors isolated. Isolating them without humans to torment would probably make them all the more determined to rebel. However, I wonder, then, why they stayed at Azkaban until they got Voldemort's permission to wreak havoc in the population. Sure, they had a source of food, but they had much more of the same when they were roaming free.

Quote:
Given Fudge's actions of non-action in OotP, I see Fudge as much more involved and responsible. Yes, Hagrid called him a "bungler" back in SS/PS when Fudge was still owling Dumbledore every morning; but in OotP he is ambitious, power-hungry, blinded, and ruthless. And I think the reason the general readership does not focus on Fudge's responsibility is because Umbridge was so much more visible, and that readers tend to hang onto the idea that Fudge was as blubbering and incompetent as we see him in books 1-3.
I still think Fudge was incompetent - a competent Minister would have faced up to the challenge and danger facing their world, rather than hiding behind his paranoia and love for power.
Fudge was the one who made terrible, harmful decisions, as a leader of the Magical Community. However, even at that, I doubt that he had the sadism and cruelty that Umbridge delighted in, and that is why I think Umbridge is almost universally unpopular.

Quote:
The Goblet seems semi-sentient in itself; in addition to choosing candidates, though, I think there is some magic attached to the Goblet that creates the "binding magical contract" under which all participants are bound (hence Dumbledore's statement quoted above).
With that said, it's unfortunate if the Goblet can't be charmed to detect forgery, magical or otherwise, as in the case of Crouch, with Harry's signature. Or in the event of a student putting in another student's name, without their knowledge.


Quote:
So the school was written on the parchment - at least for the other candidates. Perhaps "Moody" hoodwinked the Goblet into recognizing Harry's name under a different school, even if the school was not written on the parchment.
As he was able to Confund the Goblet into choosing four names, he might well have been able to do so without including the name of the mysterious fourth school.


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  #1490  
Old November 9th, 2011, 9:33 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Could Crouch have done something to the parchment so that the name of the school wouldn't be seen? Hermione mentions Invisible Ink in CoS. Or, there could be some kind of magical ink that vanishes after a certain period of time and doesn't show up with revealing spells or Revealer "erasers". Invisible Ink would be taking the risk that Dumbledore did use a Revealer.
This is an interesting thought that I have never before considered; I think it is possible. However, Crouch knew how great a wizard Dumbledore was, and he would have realized that invisible ink would not fool him. I stand by my belief that the school name was simply not relevant to the situation. Even if a 4th school was written along with Harry's name, Dumbledore knows nothing other than how the Goblet of Fire was tricked. But Crouch did not even hide that piece of information, as he unabashedly told everybody the "theory" in the antechamber. Thus, why would Crouch need to hide the fourth school's name, as it would tell Dumbledore nothing more than part of the process behind Harry being entered into the Tournament?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I think the Dept. of Mysteries or the Dept for Experimental Charms (not sure of the exact title) should give some of their time and funding to ways to permanently incapacitate Dementors.
And the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures may be helpful, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
However, I wonder, then, why they stayed at Azkaban until they got Voldemort's permission to wreak havoc in the population. Sure, they had a source of food, but they had much more of the same when they were roaming free.
I think the reason is that they were only roaming free because of Voldemort. We do not know how they came to guard Azkaban prison, but I imagine it was some sort of Wizarding dominance/restraint (similar to the Ministry's perception of controlling centaurs' land). Thus, the dementors knew that wizards could exert some form of dominance over them, and my guess is that they decided to "complacently" guard the Azkaban prison, thereby gaining the Ministry's "trust," having a steady food supply, and not being too forcibly/antagonistically controlled by the Ministry. If they were just roaming free, I imagine Aurors or other branches of the Ministry would be charged with controlling the dementors, thus limiting the dementors' food supply and supposed "freedom." Thus, not until Voldemort assumed power did the dementors really stand a chance of wreaking havoc amongst the population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I still think Fudge was incompetent - a competent Minister would have faced up to the challenge and danger facing their world, rather than hiding behind his paranoia and love for power.
Fudge was the one who made terrible, harmful decisions, as a leader of the Magical Community. However, even at that, I doubt that he had the sadism and cruelty that Umbridge delighted in, and that is why I think Umbridge is almost universally unpopular.
Oh, I certainly agree that Fudge was incompetent during (and after) OotP as well. My choice of words was poor, but I see a distinction between his incompetence in books 1-3 and that during 4-6. The motivation behind his incompetency changed, and I feel that the readership seems to ignore how ruthless Fudge truly became. He was not the relatively innocent, uncertain Minister we see in the early books. Instead, he became power-hungry, domineering, and ruthless in his effort to defeat Dumbledore and control the Wizarding world. While I agree that he never seems to have had the sadism of Umbridge and, of course, that makes him instantly less detestable, I think he is given too much of a "Get out of jail free" card when it comes to evaluating his impact on Voldemort's rise to power and all the suffering Harry and the Order went through during OotP (and, really, through HBP and DH, as I think Fudge's policy of blindness and ambition was irreversibly detrimental to the Order's cause).
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
With that said, it's unfortunate if the Goblet can't be charmed to detect forgery, magical or otherwise, as in the case of Crouch, with Harry's signature. Or in the event of a student putting in another student's name, without their knowledge.
Perhaps the Goblet cannot simply be Charmed. Dumbledore drew an Age Line around the Goblet rather than incorporating the age restriction into the Goblet itself. But as Crouch apparently Confunded it, it does leave open the possibility that it could be tampered with.

This has me wonder, though, about the origins of the Goblet of Fire. Why was it chosen to be the impartial judge of the Triwizard Tournament? Do you think it is something similar to the Sorting Hat, in that the original founders of the Tournament would have put some "brains" into the Goblet to allow it to make the best choice? If so (or even if not), why choose a wooden goblet with blue flame?


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  #1491  
Old November 10th, 2011, 4:25 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
Will we be discussing the Order of the Phoenix book or is the end of book discussions? I would love to discuss the next book.
I sure hope we will be doing OotP next! (and the others) It's one of my favorites, as opposed to GoF being my least favorite. (Of course my "least favorite" has probably has more parts I like in it than many other non-Harry books I find enjoyable!)
--------------------------
It seems as if I read an interview somewhere where JKR intimated that dementors couldn't ever really die. I thought that this was rather a dreadful state of affairs! One might hope that in the absence of Voldemort in the future that powerful good wizards would put their efforts into this issue and find a new way to, if not kill them, then de-power them somewhat or corral them somehow and/or make them feed off something else than human misery.


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Last edited by Rookie_Angel; November 11th, 2011 at 12:00 am. Reason: last poster, needed to add a "new post".
  #1492  
Old November 11th, 2011, 6:10 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie_Angel View Post
It seems as if I read an interview somewhere where JKR intimated that dementors couldn't ever really die. I thought that this was rather a dreadful state of affairs! One might hope that in the absence of Voldemort in the future that powerful good wizards would put their efforts into this issue and find a new way to, if not kill them, then de-power them somewhat or corral them somehow and/or make them feed off something else than human misery.
It seems unlikely that Dementors can't die since they can breed and both are characterisatics of living creatures. If they could breed but never die you'd think the planet would be completely over run with them! Perhaps they can starve (or be starved) into non-existence?


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  #1493  
Old November 11th, 2011, 2:59 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

I feel that one of JKR's themes of the books is not to be afraid of death, which becomes apparent in DH, so it doesn't seem likely that she would have some of the most feared creatures be immortal.

I do like the idea that they may be starved into non-existence; it seemed that they were multiplying rapidly when Voldemort was coming back into power and Fudge explained to the other prime minister that it was cold and foggy all the time because the dementors were breeding, but I can't remember if it was because of all of the Dark activity or something. If there is truth in that though it would make sense that the opposite is true and they would die off when there is light evil activity.


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  #1494  
Old November 11th, 2011, 7:26 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
This is an interesting thought that I have never before considered; I think it is possible. However, Crouch knew how great a wizard Dumbledore was, and he would have realized that invisible ink would not fool him. I stand by my belief that the school name was simply not relevant to the situation. Even if a 4th school was written along with Harry's name, Dumbledore knows nothing other than how the Goblet of Fire was tricked. But Crouch did not even hide that piece of information, as he unabashedly told everybody the "theory" in the antechamber. Thus, why would Crouch need to hide the fourth school's name, as it would tell Dumbledore nothing more than part of the process behind Harry being entered into the Tournament?
I think it's likely that there was no school name on the parchment by the time it came out of the Goblet - the group in the anteroom would have seen it - so Crouch would not have had to "theorise" about a fourth school. The name of a fourth school on the parchment would have been among Karkaroff and Madame Maxime's accusations.
Invisible ink would be too basic to trick Dumbledore, I agree, but, as there is invisible ink in HP, perhaps there is also ink that vanishes leaving no trace after a certain amount of time.

If Crouch had simply added the parchment with no school name on it - could he have Confunded the Goblet to see that as a separate school? As he Confunded it into choosing four instead of three Champions, he could perhaps also have tricked it into seeing a school where there was none.

Quote:
Perhaps the Goblet cannot simply be Charmed. Dumbledore drew an Age Line around the Goblet rather than incorporating the age restriction into the Goblet itself. But as Crouch apparently Confunded it, it does leave open the possibility that it could be tampered with.
As Crouch was able to tamper with it, I think it may be possible to charm the Goblet - perhaps it could be charmed to recognise that a person had not added their own name and so would not consider them to have entered into the magical contract.

Quote:
This has me wonder, though, about the origins of the Goblet of Fire. Why was it chosen to be the impartial judge of the Triwizard Tournament? Do you think it is something similar to the Sorting Hat, in that the original founders of the Tournament would have put some "brains" into the Goblet to allow it to make the best choice? If so (or even if not), why choose a wooden goblet with blue flame?
Now that you mention it, there is that similarity between the Goblet and the Sorting Hat. It would make sense that there is a similar kind of magic used on these two objects that make impartial and irreversible decisions. I like the idea that the founders of the Tournament put some "brains" into the Goblet so it would choose - perhaps the Heads of each of the three schools at the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks View Post
I feel that one of JKR's themes of the books is not to be afraid of death, which becomes apparent in DH, so it doesn't seem likely that she would have some of the most feared creatures be immortal.
Good point. Dementors may not be immortal, in that case.

Quote:
I do like the idea that they may be starved into non-existence; it seemed that they were multiplying rapidly when Voldemort was coming back into power and Fudge explained to the other prime minister that it was cold and foggy all the time because the dementors were breeding, but I can't remember if it was because of all of the Dark activity or something. If there is truth in that though it would make sense that the opposite is true and they would die off when there is light evil activity.
I wonder if they were able to breed because they were at liberty to cause as much misery as they wanted - they were restricted at Azkaban to the prisoners - allowed to roam freely, they had a constant supply of fresh victims.


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  #1495  
Old November 11th, 2011, 8:57 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
I think it's likely that there was no school name on the parchment by the time it came out of the Goblet - the group in the anteroom would have seen it - so Crouch would not have had to "theorise" about a fourth school. The name of a fourth school on the parchment would have been among Karkaroff and Madame Maxime's accusations.
Invisible ink would be too basic to trick Dumbledore, I agree, but, as there is invisible ink in HP, perhaps there is also ink that vanishes leaving no trace after a certain amount of time.

If Crouch had simply added the parchment with no school name on it - could he have Confunded the Goblet to see that as a separate school? As he Confunded it into choosing four instead of three Champions, he could perhaps also have tricked it into seeing a school where there was none.
I never thought about being able to trick the Goblet, only Dumbledore, but that seems to make the most sense. If a person could enter another's name into the Goblet then it seems that the Goblet is only concerned with the names put in- not who puts them in or what else is written on the paper besides the name (and maybe school). As MrSleepyHead pointed out, the Age Line and other enchantments were placed around the Goblet, not the Goblet itself and if Dumbledore added the protection in this manner, it leads me to believe that the Goblet is very susceptible to being tricked or altered when excess magic is involved, which is why Crouch was able to enter Harry so easily. Maybe there's only so much in it's "brain" that we speculate may be added.

Quote:
This has me wonder, though, about the origins of the Goblet of Fire. Why was it chosen to be the impartial judge of the Triwizard Tournament? Do you think it is something similar to the Sorting Hat, in that the original founders of the Tournament would have put some "brains" into the Goblet to allow it to make the best choice? If so (or even if not), why choose a wooden goblet with blue flame?
Interesting question. It makes me wonder what other method they would have come up with if not for the Goblet. I think maybe the headmasters didn't feel they would able to leave bias behind when choosing a champion and wanted someone (or in this case, something) impartial to do the job. The idea of putting "brains" into the Goblet makes sense, otherwise it might just choose any name. As to why they chose a goblet with fire, I'm stumped.


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  #1496  
Old November 11th, 2011, 11:46 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

I hope I am not rushing things, but I like the opening chapter in Order of the Phoenix. Harry, trying to listen to the news every day, and his aunt and uncle are suspicious of this. Then, Harry taking his frustrations out on Dudley; Dudley is 15, and his mother still calls him "Dudders". I am surprised that Dudley took up boxing. I wonder who talked him into trying out for the team?


  #1497  
Old November 12th, 2011, 12:59 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

I always found it a bit strange that a man like Vernon Dursley; who was very arrogant, snobbish, pompous and self-serving would be 'proud' (for the lack of a better word) that his son was or is completely ignorant of such common knowledge as to the name of the leader of the country they live in.

Considering Mr. Durlsey was such a anti-magic purist, he would surely want his son to be an upstanding muggle?

However, as much as it might seem initially odd that he doesn't mind his son's ignorance it does support the fact that they spoiled the son to ruin. They made excuses for his bullying, his poor scholastic efforts and his overall rude and arrogant demeanour.

I wonder if Harry was never forced to live with them, would they still have ruined their son as they did.


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  #1498  
Old November 12th, 2011, 4:12 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks View Post
As MrSleepyHead pointed out, the Age Line and other enchantments were placed around the Goblet, not the Goblet itself and if Dumbledore added the protection in this manner, it leads me to believe that the Goblet is very susceptible to being tricked or altered when excess magic is involved, which is why Crouch was able to enter Harry so easily. Maybe there's only so much in it's "brain" that we speculate may be added.
That's a good point - the Goblet might not react well to too much magic.
Crouch did say it would take a powerful wizard to Confund it, and no-one contradicted him, which would suggest that it did take powerful magic to over-ride the "basic settings" on the goblet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
I hope I am not rushing things, but I like the opening chapter in Order of the Phoenix. Harry, trying to listen to the news every day, and his aunt and uncle are suspicious of this. Then, Harry taking his frustrations out on Dudley; Dudley is 15, and his mother still calls him "Dudders". I am surprised that Dudley took up boxing. I wonder who talked him into trying out for the team?
Perhaps he was expected to exercise, along with his diet, and boxing was the exercise of choice? Perhaps he took an interest in being allowed to fight by the authorities? (In any case, it was a situation where he would have to follow the rules or be disqualified. It was in a controlled situation against someone of his own size.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan_Kleks View Post
I always found it a bit strange that a man like Vernon Dursley; who was very arrogant, snobbish, pompous and self-serving would be 'proud' (for the lack of a better word) that his son was or is completely ignorant of such common knowledge as to the name of the leader of the country they live in.

Considering Mr. Durlsey was such a anti-magic purist, he would surely want his son to be an upstanding muggle?
Well, from his remarks that a "normal" boy doesn't have any interest in politics, and his disdain for youth campaigners/charity workers in PS/SS (he thinks the people in cloaks are young people collecting money for something), it's possible he thinks that young people shouldn't have any involvement or interest in politics.

Quote:
I wonder if Harry was never forced to live with them, would they still have ruined their son as they did.
They were already spoiling him in the opening chapter of PS/SS, when they expected to have no contact with the Potters - neither of them told him off for throwing a tantrum and throwing his breakfast at the wall. McGonagall reports seeing him kicking his mother and demanding sweets.


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  #1499  
Old November 12th, 2011, 4:29 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
If Crouch had simply added the parchment with no school name on it - could he have Confunded the Goblet to see that as a separate school? As he Confunded it into choosing four instead of three Champions, he could perhaps also have tricked it into seeing a school where there was none.
This was always my assumption: Moody somehow avoided writing the school name on the parchment and simply Confunded the Goblet into believing a fourth school competed in the tournament and that Harry Potter was the only participant from that school.

Though that raises the question (and perhaps it was already discussed): Do you think Harry would have been chosen by the Goblet of Fire if he entered his name under normal circumstances (e.g. if no Age Line existed and Harry was competing, without Crouch's interference, against Cedric, Angelina, etc.)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I like the idea that the founders of the Tournament put some "brains" into the Goblet so it would choose - perhaps the Heads of each of the three schools at the time.
This is my speculation as well. Never before had I really thought of the connection between the Sorting Hat and the Goblet of Fire, but I think the comparison is apt. But I wonder if, in the Goblet of Fire's case, the Ministries of Magic (or other governing bodies) had any influence, rather than jut the 3 headmasters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I wonder if they were able to breed because they were at liberty to cause as much misery as they wanted - they were restricted at Azkaban to the prisoners - allowed to roam freely, they had a constant supply of fresh victims.
It does seem that either the Ministry restricted the dementors from breeding, or else the conditions under which dementors were held did not allow them to breed (i.e. As you say, they may have required free reign to cause misery in order to reproduce). JKR said that dementors actually do not breed but "but grow like a fungus where there is decay," which can explain why they were able to reproduce after rebelling against the Ministry. It seems like their reproduction is some sort of asexual reproduction - generally like fungus - with some sort of binary fission/cloning mechanism or spores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
They were already spoiling him in the opening chapter of PS/SS, when they expected to have no contact with the Potters - neither of them told him off for throwing a tantrum and throwing his breakfast at the wall. McGonagall reports seeing him kicking his mother and demanding sweets.
Exactly. The opening of SS/PS indicates that Vernon and Petunia were already well on their way to spoiling Dudley. Harry's presence, I think, just made it more noticeable because of the dramatic contrast in treatment.

For reference, we will be opening a new thread to start OotP discussion as soon as possible. So marshal your thoughts, but try to refrain from too much discussion unless we take too long getting the new thread up and running!


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Last edited by MrSleepyHead; November 12th, 2011 at 5:11 pm. Reason: Add link to JKR interview
  #1500  
Old November 13th, 2011, 1:57 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

This is the quote I was thinking of:

Quote:
Cornersoul: So what happens to all the dementors where will they go will they be destroyed if so, how?

J.K. Rowling: You cannot destroy Dementors, though you can limit their numbers if you eradicate the conditions in which they multiply, ie, despair and degradation.
(From http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/20...hat-transcript )

I guess I read that to mean that if they were incapable of being destroyed, they were incapable of dying. I could see though, where it might leave room for argument on that point.


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