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  #1461  
Old October 26th, 2011, 10:52 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Chapter 34: Priori Incatatem

I find it interesting that Voldemort was so patient when dueling Harry, rather than simply abolishing the threat that had perturbed him for so long. In The Prince’s Tale Dumbledore tells Snape that Bellatrix likes to play with her food: a trait she seems to have learned from Voldemort along with Dark magic.
Monologuing-see The Incredibles.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think the phoenix song was caused by the phoenix feather cores?
Definitely.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think a different sound/song would have come if the shared core was, for instance, unicorn hair?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
What do you think the shadows were hissing towards Voldemort?
Cursing him perhaps.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I am curious how many of you first read GoF with the original mistake of James appearing from the wand before Lily? If so, when did you realize that this was a mistake in the chronology?
Not I.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think it was Dumbledore who roughly seized Harry and turned him over? If so, why would Dumbledore handle Harry so roughly?
Yes. Most likely he was a bit panicky.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think JKR masterfully described the chaos, drama, and intensity surrounding Harry’s return – amazingly tragic and engaging.

We get the first indication of “Moody’s” falsity when he refers to Voldemort as “the Dark Lord.” And even more surprising for a Death Eater, he actually says “Voldemort” when interrogating Harry. Why do you think that is?
He was already imagining himself being welcomed back as a son so he was taking a few liberties there.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Why do you think Barty Crouch Jr. lost his composure/sensibility when Harry returned, so much that he jeopardized his ideal position as a spy. How would things have changed if Crouch Jr. had been more patient and not kidnapped Harry away from Dumbledore?
Excitement. He knew that LV had been reincarnated because he would have felt his Dark Mark summoning the Death Eaters and so knew he would no longer be needed under cover. And somehow Harry had escaped again so Crouch Jr could prove his worth to LV by killing him.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Was Crouch Jr. smart in relying on Harry asking Neville for help? Personally, I thought Harry was stretching his luck by confiding in Hermione, Ron, and Sirius. Should Crouch Jr. not have realized that the champions were supposed to be proud and independent with the clues?
I think he kept such a close "eye" on the situation that he could intervene whenever needed to shunt things toward his liking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I find it interesting that Harry could not see shapes in the Foe-Glass when he first looked into it, but then Snape observes his own reflection in it later. Does the Foe-Glass only truly register enemies when they are directly confronting that person (for instance, as Moody said earlier, he is only in danger when he sees the whites of their eyes)?
I think two conditions affect the Foe-Glass: proximity and intent. As the figures drew closer in space and, I think, as Dumbledore started figuring out who Moody really was (as he was probably explaining his suspicions to Snape and McGonagall as they approached) the shapes became more discernible.

And the fact that Snape can be seen in Crouch's Foe-Glass is a giant hint to the audience that, come what may, Snape is on the good side. JKR specifically mentions that Snape is seen: "Snape followed him (DD), looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." I think the glass knows exactly who Crouch Jr is and shows who is truly his enemy. If Snape had just been pretending to be Dumbledore's spy, he would not have shown up in the glass.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Would Voldemort have rewarded Crouch Jr. for killing Harry, or was Voldemort so intent on killing Harry himself that he would have been infuriated by Crouch’s presumption?
LV is so capricious, you never can tell.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you find it believable that Crouch Jr. had fooled Dumbledore through the third task, and only by Moody taking Harry after Harry returned did Dumbledore develop not just a suspicion but a certainty of an imposter?
Not really. Though I think what happened in the background is that DD found out that Moody/Crouch didn't take Harry to the hospital wing as he said he would and that was probably what got him putting two and two together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
This question was somewhat recently asked on another thread, but I will bring it up here. Why do you think Dumbledore knew to summon Winky for the interrogation of “Moody”, thus indicating that Dumbledore expected “Moody” to be Crouch Jr.?
Part of putting the pieces together for DD was remembering what Harry had said about seeing Crouch Jr in the Pensieve and in his dream. That would lead him to think of Winky.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Does anyone else want a trunk like Moody’s?
Oh, yes, please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I am always amazed that Mrs. Crouch had the physical ability to drink Polyjuice Potion within one hour of her death. I also find it interesting that, upon death, she apparently did not transform back into herself – unless, of course, it was a supposition of Crouch’s that she was buried with his appearance.
If the dementors are blind, why do they need the Polyjuice Potion? Except for getting Crouch Jr back to their home?

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Was Crouch Sr. smart to imprison his son in such a way, or do you agree with Mrs. Crouch that he should have been given more freedom?
I think the trial he had was fair. Crouch was stupid letting him out.

Questions I have:
During Occlumency lessons in OotP Snape says he's heard Harry has a bit of talent resisting the Imperious curse-how do you think he knows that?

Harry was entered under another school, so is he actually a Hogwarts champion?

Stupefy doesn't destroy inanimate objects so someone else had to use a spell to break down the door before Dumbledore stunned Moody/Crouch Jr. Snape or McGonagall?

Why would a magical, apparating-capable house elf be afraid of heights?

Why would torture break a Memory Charm?


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Last edited by mirrormere; October 26th, 2011 at 11:41 pm.
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  #1462  
Old October 26th, 2011, 11:10 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Would Barty Crouch, Jr. feel the Dark Mark burn if he was Polyjuiced as Moody? I'm not sure that he would, so I don't think that is how he could know Voldemort had returned.


  #1463  
Old October 26th, 2011, 11:56 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabriele87 View Post
Would Barty Crouch, Jr. feel the Dark Mark burn if he was Polyjuiced as Moody? I'm not sure that he would, so I don't think that is how he could know Voldemort had returned.
Good question! I think I might be remembering the movie. Do we know if Crouch Jr even had a Dark Mark?


Upon rereading the section, Crouch Jr questions Harry like he didn't know LV was reincarnated. I take it back!

But he takes Harry to his office after he finds out LV is alive-perhaps he started out for the hospital wing to get Harry alone and diverted after getting confirmation.


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  #1464  
Old October 27th, 2011, 12:55 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
This is an interesting investigation, and I think it necessary to reference the surrounding passage:
GoF, The Death Eaters"What I was, even I do not know… I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked… for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it. Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help myself…"

The way I interpret this is that his "experiments" are his Horcruxes. They are not his attempts/experiments he underwent when trying to make Horcruxes/seek a way to immortality, but they were his actual Horcruxes - in the plural. "One or more of my experiments had worked." That says, to me, "one or more of my Horcruxes had worked." He is saying that at least one of his Horcruxes had done its job, tethering him to life. I do not think he knows if the collected power of 5 Horcruxes was what kept him alive, or if only one of the Horcruxes functioned at a time; but what he did gather is that a single Horcrux's utility was not nullified by having others. Thus, I think Voldemort realized that his idea of multiple Horcruxes worked.
That makes sense to me. I wonder whether the horcruxes worked together or only one at a time. It only takes one horcrux to keep your soul on earth, so I wonder if Voldemort made more in case one got destroyed or because he thought with seven being a magical number it would make them more powerful. I can't see why it should since all they need to do is exist to work.
Quote:
I find it interesting that Voldemort was so patient when dueling Harry, rather than simply abolishing the threat that had perturbed him for so long. In The Prince’s Tale Dumbledore tells Snape that Bellatrix likes to play with her food: a trait she seems to have learned from Voldemort along with Dark magic.
Typical Dark Lord behaviour isn't it? Play around with your victim until he unexpectedly (!!) beats you or gets away. I guess Voldemort hadn't seen many movies.
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Do you think the phoenix song was caused by the phoenix feather cores? Do you think a different sound/song would have come if the shared core was, for instance, unicorn hair?
Yes, I think the song came from the shared cores. What would you have got with unicorn tail hairs? Neighing?
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The shadows of Voldemort’s latest victims were more or less sentient, being omniscient and able to interact with Harry. Do you think the shadows of spells created by the spell Prior Incantato (e.g. the spell Amos Diggory used on Harry’s wand to reveal the shadow of the Dark Mark) would also have that sentience, or was this an anomaly caused by Priori Incantatem, the reverse spell effect?
It had never struck me that Prior Incantato and Priori Incantatem weren't the same thing! I feel that the sentient shadows were the result of the twin cores which made it more potent than a simple Prior Incantato.
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Do you think it was Dumbledore who roughly seized Harry and turned him over? If so, why would Dumbledore handle Harry so roughly?
I assumed it was Dumbledore and he was rough with him because he was so anxious to check that he was alright. He obviously realised something was wrong as soon as he saw Harry & Cedric together. The rest of the crowd didn't seem to cotton on so quickly but then, that's Dumbledore all over!
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Was Crouch Jr. smart in relying on Harry asking Neville for help? Personally, I thought Harry was stretching his luck by confiding in Hermione, Ron, and Sirius. Should Crouch Jr. not have realized that the champions were supposed to be proud and independent with the clues?
I can't imagine why he thought Harry would ask Neville for help. Maybe he thought Neville would talk about what was in the book Moody had lent him, and Harry would remember and ask him. It seems a very long shot though.
Quote:
I find it interesting that Harry could not see shapes in the Foe-Glass when he first looked into it, but then Snape observes his own reflection in it later. Does the Foe-Glass only truly register enemies when they are directly confronting that person (for instance, as Moody said earlier, he is only in danger when he sees the whites of their eyes)?
I assumed that 'foes' became clearer in the glass as they got physically nearer and the glass's owner became more endangered. Interesting that Snape's reflection was still showing up once they had entered the room and stupefied fake Moody.
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Do you find it believable that Crouch Jr. had fooled Dumbledore through the third task, and only by Moody taking Harry after Harry returned did Dumbledore develop not just a suspicion but a certainty of an imposter?
Dumbledore seemed to have no suspicion that Moody was Barty Jnr until he did something that the real Moody would never have done - ie take Harry away when Dumbledore had specifically told him to stay. Barty must have done a fantastic job of imitating Moody, or perhaps he kept out of Albus' way for most of the year?
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Does anyone else want a trunk like Moody’s?
Oh, yes! What a space-saver!
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I am always amazed that Mrs. Crouch had the physical ability to drink Polyjuice Potion within one hour of her death. I also find it interesting that, upon death, she apparently did not transform back into herself – unless, of course, it was a supposition of Crouch’s that she was buried with his appearance.
If she did transform back when she died, I don't suppose the Dementors would have noticed since they don't appear to 'see' as humans do. I don't see how Crouch could have known she was buried with his appearance as he wasn't there as far as I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
And the fact that Snape can be seen in Crouch's Foe-Glass is a giant hint to the audience that, come what may, Snape is on the good side. JKR specifically mentions that Snape is seen: "Snape followed him (DD), looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." I think the glass knows exactly who Crouch Jr is and shows who is truly his enemy. If Snape had just been pretending to be Dumbledore's spy, he would not have shown up in the glass.
That's a really good point!
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During Occlumency lessons in OotP Snape says he's heard Harry has a bit of talent resisting the Imperious curse-how do you think he knows that?
Either Moody mentioned it in the staff room or the word had got around among the kids and he picked it up from them. Both seem possible.
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Stupefy doesn't destroy inanimate objects so someone else had to use a spell to break down the door before Dumbledore stunned Moody/Crouch Jr. Snape or McGonagall?
I suppose there's no reason why Dumbledore couldn't have done both spells (Reducto and Stupefy) in rapid succession. He's a smart enough wizard!
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Why would torture break a Memory Charm?
Good point. We are never told what it takes to break a memory charm are we?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabriele87 View Post
Would Barty Crouch, Jr. feel the Dark Mark burn if he was Polyjuiced as Moody? I'm not sure that he would, so I don't think that is how he could know Voldemort had returned.
Crouch probably heard Harry tell Dumbledore "He's back" and as that was what he was hoping would happen, he took it that Voldemort had returned. I agree he wouldn't have had a Dark Mark when he was polyjuiced.


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  #1465  
Old October 28th, 2011, 9:47 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

I think torture would break a memory charm because the severe pain incapcitates you. Look what happened to Neville's parents. they were tortured into madness. I think the same thing happended to Bertha Jorkin. she was tortured to the point where she didn't remember anything after Voldemort extracted information about the Tri-Wizard tournament.
I thought Prior Incanto and Priori Incatatem were the same reverse spell. I always thought that because Harry and Voldemort's wands shared the same wand cores that was why there were more sentient shadows.
I would love to have a trunk like Moody's, a space saver which I need.


  #1466  
Old October 28th, 2011, 9:52 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I agree with MerryLore that the Polyjuice Potion is far from innocent, and that while it may not be classified as a "Dark" potion, it certainly had qualities that Dark wizards could (and did) easily abuse.
One could say that of most potions, spells and magical objects. They can be put to use by Dark witches and wizards, they can be used for good or ill. Polyjuice Potion fits that bill, but so does the Stunning Spell, Decoy Detonators; even healing potions/spells can be a bad thing if they fix up a DE so s/he can go out and kill again. It all depends on how they're used. But I agree, some are more prone to dangerous use than others.

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But I think it is difficult to claim a potion is Dark because of its requirement of snake ingredients (e.g. some love potions use Ashwinder eggs and snake fangs are used in boil-cure potions). I think that statement by the anonymous wizard is made with a great deal of bias.
Good points. And as it's reported by Rita Skeeter, I would imagine she could have twisted what the anonymous wizard said - or fabricated it entirely, as he was conveniently anonymous.

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I enjoy Voldemort's sadistic humor with, "Well, one of them was already at hand, was it not, Wormtail? Flesh given by a servant…"
A nod to the earlier quip that it was a task many of his followers would give their right hand to perform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Here's a thought: what if Moody/Crouch Jr was able to attach a "flesh memory" to the cup so that it only ported when Harry touched it? I imagine that might be possible.
Perhaps. Or perhaps the secret of "flesh memory" is kept highly confidential by Snitch-makers, just as the secret of getting a piece of wood to fly is kept confidential by broomstick makers. Or, perhaps he would have needed Harry to touch the Cup in order to attach a flesh memory? The Snitch remembers the first person to touch it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Following this line of reasoning: DD remarked that LV's greatest fear was death. Not given much to empathy, he would assume that was the greatest fear of all people. So he initially gains followers by threat: join me and I won't kill you. I think he somehow sensed this would not be enough and so then attempts to secure loyalty through enticement: prove yourself and I'll provide you with immortality-you will become one of my Death Eaters.
I don't think he would have offered them immortality - his own boasts of striving for and achieving immortality set him above and apart from his Death Eaters. I don't think he would have wanted to give any of them the idea that they could be as powerful as him, or immortal like him. He would have wanted them to be fully aware that he was the one who was superior in all aspects, IMO. Promising them immortality would have defeated the purpose of calling himself their lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
But I also think that he saw no harm in telling Harry the truth when he was going to kill Harry in a matter of minutes anyway. No Death Eaters would have heard that conversation between Voldemort and Harry, so Voldemort did not have to worry about his reputation/blood purity being questioned.
I think this may have had a lot to do with it. The Diary-Riddle who told Harry of his parentage had the same general idea - Harry wouldn't live to tell anyone about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Frank Bryce’s shadow seemed amazingly calm at seeing that true wizards existed; but who knows how much the shadow learned/experienced after Frank’s death?
I've always loved Frank's reaction when he comes out of Voldemort's wand. Perhaps he realised more, but his reaction seems to be questioning, as though he's just come to that realisation - "So he was a real wizard, then?"


Quote:
Why do you think Barty Crouch Jr. lost his composure/sensibility when Harry returned, so much that he jeopardized his ideal position as a spy. How would things have changed if Crouch Jr. had been more patient and not kidnapped Harry away from Dumbledore?
Perhaps he was over-eager to find out what had happened when Voldemort returned? Perhaps he was thrown by the fact that Harry had returned alive and wanted to know what had gone wrong?

I think it could have changed everything afterwards if he had been able to restrain himself. He could have continued to masquerade as Moody with the Order, passed information to Voldemort, and possibly sent Harry on another unexpected trip.

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I also find it interesting that Crouch Jr. coveted being “closer than a son” to Voldemort. Does this show us that he fled to Voldemort’s service to be wanted, needed, or useful to a “father figure” – something he did not have in his own home with his father?
It may have come from his troubled relationship with his father - although that may or may not be true. According to Sirius, that was what people were saying when they started feeling sorry for him. It may have been true, or it may just have been public perception. However, most school-age witches and wizards would only see their parents during the holidays anyway.

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Do you find it believable that Crouch Jr. had fooled Dumbledore through the third task, and only by Moody taking Harry after Harry returned did Dumbledore develop not just a suspicion but a certainty of an imposter?
While Dumbledore suspected Quirrell in PS/SS, I don't think he suspected Moody to be anyone other than who he claimed to be. For one thing, he was laying a trap for Quirrell, with the Mirror. For another, the Triwizard Tournament was blatantly an attempt to get at Harry for some reason - the fact that Harry was entered at all by some unknown party, coupled with the knowledge of Harry's scar hurting, and the mounting disappearances, Dumbledore would have known that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
I'd have to agree with Crouch Sr on this one since we see how he broke away from Winky at the World Cup.
I agree, and I think Crouch should never have freed him in the first place. Mrs Crouch may have been kidding herself that her darling wouldn't do these things. Or, maybe she believed he did, but didn't mind. Crouch backed himself into an incredibly difficult corner - he gave his wife her dying wish, but left himself with an extremely dangerous individual to keep under control. If he hadn't kept Barty Jr. under control, he would have acted of his own accord to seek Voldemort - he showed that he was willing to act on his own initiative at the World Cup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Gaunt View Post
Voldemort was very patient, indeed. Even waiting a year to capture Harry shows that.
In some ways, yes. But according to his plan, waiting worked best - he could make it seem that Harry died during the tournament and keep his return quiet. And who knows how long the ingredients that were already in the cauldron took to brew? Polyjuice takes a month before the final parts are added.

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I can't remember how I first read it, but I don't think I'd have read it soon enough to read it that way. I do have the Manager/Assistant mistake in my copy of PoA though.
I don't remember seeing it; which mistake is that?


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I think he'd be furious he didn't get to do it himself at first, but I think he'd have calmed down eventually and realised he was glad Harry was dead. Then he could proceed with his plans of taking over the wizarding world, in the knowledge that his one threat was gone.
He would probably have killed Crouch Jr. for it before he calmed down, IMO. But I agree he would have eventually calmed down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
If the dementors are blind, why do they need the Polyjuice Potion? Except for getting Crouch Jr back to their home?
Good question. Perhaps in case there were any Ministry inspections or Ministry staff there for any reason? Fudge carried out an annual inspection, but the twins mention in PoA that Arthur had to make a trip there for work once. (that they know of).

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During Occlumency lessons in OotP Snape says he's heard Harry has a bit of talent resisting the Imperious curse-how do you think he knows that?
IMO, it may have been from other Death Eaters talking about it - his friend Lucius, perhaps. I don't think Voldemort would have been willing to bring up that aspect of the duel himself. Dumbledore may have mentioned it to Snape, but I can't see why he would. It wasn't relevant to what he was doing.

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Why would torture break a Memory Charm?
Hmm - it affects the mind, as it did to the Longbottoms, so it might leave the memories hidden by a memory charm vulnerable to Legilimency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Good question! I think I might be remembering the movie. Do we know if Crouch Jr even had a Dark Mark?
I think he did. He was a Death Eater. He knew about the Dark Mark on the arms of the Death Eaters, and that it burned when Voldemort called them. He knew how to cast the spell to fire the Dark Mark into the sky. He was a member of Bellatrix's group that tortured the Longbottoms - which suggests he was a very active and fanatic Death Eater.


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  #1467  
Old October 28th, 2011, 10:40 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think he would have offered them immortality - his own boasts of striving for and achieving immortality set him above and apart from his Death Eaters. I don't think he would have wanted to give any of them the idea that they could be as powerful as him, or immortal like him. He would have wanted them to be fully aware that he was the one who was superior in all aspects, IMO. Promising them immortality would have defeated the purpose of calling himself their lord.
I agree with you here, especially as it would have involved telling them about horcruxes, which was something he seemed to want to keep very secret. His horcuxes would have been less secure if any of the DEs had known about them - look at Regulus' reaction. If he didn't tell Lucius or Bella what the objects they were keeping safe for him really were, I don't think he'd have told anybody.
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I think he did. He was a Death Eater. He knew about the Dark Mark on the arms of the Death Eaters, and that it burned when Voldemort called them. He knew how to cast the spell to fire the Dark Mark into the sky. He was a member of Bellatrix's group that tortured the Longbottoms - which suggests he was a very active and fanatic Death Eater.
When Voldemort went round the circles of DEs he'd called to himself in the graveyard, he refers to "one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived tonight..." So he was clearly referring to Barty Jnr and there was a space for him among the DEs which means he must have had a Dark Mark so he could be summoned to the circle (which he wasn't going to do as presumably Voldemort wanted him to stay at Hogwarts to see things through from that end).


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  #1468  
Old October 29th, 2011, 10:05 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

When I first read GOF, I did have the version where James came out first. I and others thought it meant that James lingered for a while before dying while Lily was killed instantly, thus resulting in him dying after her.

Snape seeing himself in the Foe Glass begs the question: did Snape regard himself as an enemy for having told Voldemort the Prophecy?

If Azkaban inmates can see into each other's cells, then it would be necessary for Mrs. Crouch to keep taking the Polyjuice Potion to appear like Barty Jr. She must only have had a few days to live or else she must have brought with her a large supply since she obviously had no way of making more while there.

An interesting "What if" regards how different things would have been if Crouch Jr. had not been kissed by the dementor. I think things in OOTP wouldn't have been very much different. Fudge would have called it the ravings of a lunatic.


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  #1469  
Old October 29th, 2011, 10:40 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Will we be discussing the Order of the Phoenix book or is the end of book discussions? I would love to discuss the next book.


  #1470  
Old October 30th, 2011, 1:29 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead
But I also think that he saw no harm in telling Harry the truth when he was going to kill Harry in a matter of minutes anyway. No Death Eaters would have heard that conversation between Voldemort and Harry, so Voldemort did not have to worry about his reputation/blood purity being questioned.
I think this may have had a lot to do with it. The Diary-Riddle who told Harry of his parentage had the same general idea - Harry wouldn't live to tell anyone about it.
Except that Wormtail was right there and would have overheard the conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
During Occlumency lessons in OotP Snape says he's heard Harry has a bit of talent resisting the Imperious curse-how do you think he knows that?
IMO, it may have been from other Death Eaters talking about it - his friend Lucius, perhaps. I don't think Voldemort would have been willing to bring up that aspect of the duel himself. Dumbledore may have mentioned it to Snape, but I can't see why he would. It wasn't relevant to what he was doing.
That's what I think too. And Voldemort wouldn't have been crowing about his inability, once again, to defeat HP! And another thought has just occurred to me. It seems that Snape really tones down his nastiness toward Harry after Voldemort fails to kill him in the graveyard. Perhaps Harry's not as mediocre as Snape had thought, defeating Voldemort largely through his own merits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think he would have offered them immortality - his own boasts of striving for and achieving immortality set him above and apart from his Death Eaters. I don't think he would have wanted to give any of them the idea that they could be as powerful as him, or immortal like him. He would have wanted them to be fully aware that he was the one who was superior in all aspects, IMO. Promising them immortality would have defeated the purpose of calling himself their lord.
I don't believe LV would have actually helped his cronies achieve immortality, but I wouldn't put it past him to promise it. Else why the term Death Eater? Besides the horcruxes where still "experimental" and had just been proven to work. That he could do likewise for loyal followers would have been quite the recruiting tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPotter View Post
Snape seeing himself in the Foe Glass begs the question: did Snape regard himself as an enemy for having told Voldemort the Prophecy?
The Foe-Glass belonged to Crouch Jr so Snape showing up in the glass means he was Crouch Jr's, and therefore, Voldemort's enemy.


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  #1471  
Old October 30th, 2011, 3:39 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
The Foe-Glass belonged to Crouch Jr so Snape showing up in the glass means he was Crouch Jr's, and therefore, Voldemort's enemy.
I believe the foe-glass belonged to the real Moody; Crouch Jr. was just using it. But either way, I think the glass shows enemies of the person using the glass -- which is why Snape appeared, along with Dumbledore and McGonagall....they were coming after Crouch Jr.


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  #1472  
Old October 30th, 2011, 2:53 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
So he was clearly referring to Barty Jnr and there was a space for him among the DEs which means he must have had a Dark Mark so he could be summoned to the circle (which he wasn't going to do as presumably Voldemort wanted him to stay at Hogwarts to see things through from that end).
Good point. I think it's pretty certain, going by the evidence, that Barty Jr. had a Dark Mark.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPotter View Post
If Azkaban inmates can see into each other's cells, then it would be necessary for Mrs. Crouch to keep taking the Polyjuice Potion to appear like Barty Jr. She must only have had a few days to live or else she must have brought with her a large supply since she obviously had no way of making more while there.
Oh, I forgot about that, another good point. Sirius says he was able to see things in the corridor - like Crouch Jr. being dragged to a cell, Crouch Sr. carrying "Mrs. Crouch" past. In that case, it would be possible for a prisoner standing close to the door to see into another cell. Crouch would have had to do something to block the cell from view while the switch was done.

Quote:
An interesting "What if" regards how different things would have been if Crouch Jr. had not been kissed by the dementor. I think things in OOTP wouldn't have been very much different. Fudge would have called it the ravings of a lunatic.
Fudge would still have dismissed it as ravings, but if it were publicised that Crouch Jr. had said those things, it might have sown the seeds of doubt sooner among the public. He would have been released along with the other escapees in January of OotP, and could have rivalled Bellatrix in the unhinged fanatic stakes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Except that Wormtail was right there and would have overheard the conversation.
Wormtail was preoccupied with his arm, and may have been in too much pain to hear much of the monologue. In any case, Voldemort wouldn't have worried too much about Wormtail having the nerve to tell anyone.



Quote:
That's what I think too. And Voldemort wouldn't have been crowing about his inability, once again, to defeat HP! And another thought has just occurred to me. It seems that Snape really tones down his nastiness toward Harry after Voldemort fails to kill him in the graveyard. Perhaps Harry's not as mediocre as Snape had thought, defeating Voldemort largely through his own merits?
I don't see any improvement in Snape's behaviour towards Harry in OotP.



Quote:
I don't believe LV would have actually helped his cronies achieve immortality, but I wouldn't put it past him to promise it. Else why the term Death Eater? Besides the horcruxes where still "experimental" and had just been proven to work. That he could do likewise for loyal followers would have been quite the recruiting tool.
I don't think he would have promised them immortality. That would have put them on a par with him, and I don't think he would have wanted to give them even a sniff or a hope that that could happen. Promising them immortality would mean promising them they could be as powerful and invincible as he felt he was, and I don't think he would have let them think that others could achieve what he had achieved. He wanted them to see him as more powerful and above all others.

IMO, the term "Death Eaters" had a lot to do with them claiming power over the life and death of others - and using that self-proclaimed power.


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  #1473  
Old November 2nd, 2011, 1:15 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

I intended to post my thoughts on Chapters 36-37 earlier, but I have not been able to do so. I will respond to some excellent points above in a later post, but I want to leave you with these:

Chapter 36: The Parting of the Ways

The famous “gleam of triumph”! It amazes me how quickly Dumbledore’s mind worked.

I think we see the seriousness and emotion in this scene when Madam Pomfrey refers to Harry by his first name.

Why did McGonagall not cast a Patronus to save Crouch Jr.? Or was the dementor simply too quick to act?

Reading Fudge’s objections and closed mind almost makes my blood boil!

Do you think it was Fudge who originally put the dementors in charge of Azkaban after he became Minister, or were they Azkaban’s guards before Voldemort’s first war?

I remember a bit of discussion about Ron telling his mom to “shut up” after her reaction to Sirius. What do you think of Ron’s word choice to his mother?

Do you think Rita overheard the conversation between Fudge and Dumbledore or witnessed the revelation of Sirius Black? Or had she just flown up to the window fairly recently before Hermione captured her?

Chapter 37: The Beginning

Do you think the Diggorys believed Harry and Dumbledore in OotP despite the Ministry’s defamation of their story?

I think the disregard for the House Cup during the Leaving Feast underlines the turning point in the series that GoF is.

Do you think Dumbledore should have been more tactful in his end-of-term speech, more explanatory so that the students would be more apt to believe him (and Harry)?


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  #1474  
Old November 2nd, 2011, 4:56 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The famous “gleam of triumph”! It amazes me how quickly Dumbledore’s mind worked.
I must admit that gleam of triumph had me mystified until Dumbledore explained it in DH! He was so quick on the uptake here that I wonder if he'd considered the possibility before. On the other hand I can't see how he'd guess Voldemort would use Harry's blood to regenerate so perhaps not.
Quote:
Why did McGonagall not cast a Patronus to save Crouch Jr.? Or was the dementor simply too quick to act?
I'd not considered that possibility. I imagine she thought the Dementor would just take Crouch Jnr off to Azkaban and when it did the kiss instead she was too late to stop it.
Quote:
Reading Fudge’s objections and closed mind almost makes my blood boil!
Oh, mine too! Until then I'd seen him as a fairly kindly man though inclined to take the most obvious and easy route in things. From this time on I loathed Fudge.
Quote:
Do you think it was Fudge who originally put the dementors in charge of Azkaban after he became Minister, or were they Azkaban’s guards before Voldemort’s first war?
We know there were Dementors guarding Azkaban in the first war as Snape told Lily about them and Petunia overheard. I can't remember when Fudge became Minister or if his previous job would have entitled him to send Dementors there.
Quote:
Do you think Rita overheard the conversation between Fudge and Dumbledore or witnessed the revelation of Sirius Black? Or had she just flown up to the window fairly recently before Hermione captured her?
I can't see Rita not letting on at any point if she'd overheard such juicy morsels of conversation even to Hermione, so I think she was probably captured before the conversation really got going, or arrived too late to hear it.

Quote:
Do you think the Diggorys believed Harry and Dumbledore in OotP despite the Ministry’s defamation of their story?
I think they probably believed it as there was no real explanation of an 'accident' to account for the death of their son. Also Amos seemed fairly friendly with Arthur Weasley and the Weasleys certainly believed Harry & Dumbledore.
Quote:
Do you think Dumbledore should have been more tactful in his end-of-term speech, more explanatory so that the students would be more apt to believe him (and Harry)?
It depends on what he was aiming at with the speech. He might not have foreseen how much damage Fudge and the Prophet would do to his story and assumed that most of his students would trust him. He also might not have wanted to tell Harry's story without Harry's permission and thought it would make it emotionally difficult for Harry if he said more.


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  #1475  
Old November 2nd, 2011, 4:23 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The famous “gleam of triumph”! It amazes me how quickly Dumbledore’s mind worked.
Oh yes, the "gleam of trumph", source of a thousand "Dumbledore is evil" theories - I think it shows how much it meant to Dumbledore that there was now a possibility for Harry to survive.

Quote:
Reading Fudge’s objections and closed mind almost makes my blood boil!
Yeah, it was infuriating. Fudge was burying his head in the sand. While I can understand not wanting to think that Voldemort was back, actually denying it, coming up with some paranoid excuse not to believe it, and doing nothing to face up to the problem was quite stupid and selfish. It may have come from things he had seen in the first war, with the Magical Catastrophes Dept., but that would also be a good reason to work against such things happening again.

Quote:
I remember a bit of discussion about Ron telling his mom to “shut up” after her reaction to Sirius. What do you think of Ron’s word choice to his mother?
I think it was a sign of how serious things were that Ron spoke like that to his mother and that she didn't tell him off for it.

Quote:
Do you think Rita overheard the conversation between Fudge and Dumbledore or witnessed the revelation of Sirius Black? Or had she just flown up to the window fairly recently before Hermione captured her?
I don't think she saw Sirius. As horcrux4 said, if she had juicy gossip, she would have brought it up when she interviewed Harry in OotP - Harry Potter, accompanied by a fugitive "murderer" and with Dumbledore's knowledge would be too good to ignore. While we're not shown the interview, after Hermione explains what's going on to Harry and Rita, I think it would have been mentioned if she'd asked. She probably flew onto the window after Sirius and Snape had left - both departures would have given her questions.


Quote:
Do you think the Diggorys believed Harry and Dumbledore in OotP despite the Ministry’s defamation of their story?
I think they did. I think they would recognise that Dumbledore wouldn't make something like that up, and they would want a better explanation for their son's death than some mysterious accident.

Quote:
I think the disregard for the House Cup during the Leaving Feast underlines the turning point in the series that GoF is.
It really does. The characters are at the point where they see things that are so much more important than house points. The series has moved past that kind of innocence with Cedric's murder.

Quote:
Do you think Dumbledore should have been more tactful in his end-of-term speech, more explanatory so that the students would be more apt to believe him (and Harry)?
I think he had a valid point in wanting to let the students know that Cedric was murdered. It was the complete opposite to his predecessor's cover-up of Myrtle's murder as an accident. I don't think he went into too much detail, he gave them enough information to know that Cedric had been murdered, and that they needed to unite against Voldemort.



Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
I must admit that gleam of triumph had me mystified until Dumbledore explained it in DH! He was so quick on the uptake here that I wonder if he'd considered the possibility before. On the other hand I can't see how he'd guess Voldemort would use Harry's blood to regenerate so perhaps not.
I agree, he couldn't have guessed that Voldemort would use Harry's blood. However, he may have been dwelling for some time on the knowledge that Harry was a horcrux and would have to die. He seems to have known at least by the end of CoS.

Quote:
I'd not considered that possibility. I imagine she thought the Dementor would just take Crouch Jnr off to Azkaban and when it did the kiss instead she was too late to stop it.
That may have been what happened. She wouldn't have expected the Minister to take such a step without even questioning him.


Quote:
We know there were Dementors guarding Azkaban in the first war as Snape told Lily about them and Petunia overheard. I can't remember when Fudge became Minister or if his previous job would have entitled him to send Dementors there.
In PoA, he says he was Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes at the time of Voldemort's first fall. It's likely to have been a busy job during the first war, but I don't think he'd have had the authority there to install the Dementors as Azkaban guards. Going by this, and what Snape said to Lily, ten or eleven years before that, I would say that Fudge wasn't the one who sent the Dementors to Azkaban.


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  #1476  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 12:27 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabriele87 View Post
Would Barty Crouch, Jr. feel the Dark Mark burn if he was Polyjuiced as Moody? I'm not sure that he would, so I don't think that is how he could know Voldemort had returned.
After thinking about it for a while, if the Dark Mark is applied magically, it might be able to survive a Polyjuice transformation. However, the text doesn't indicate that Crouch Jr learned about LV's reincarnation in that way, as I had previously surmised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Chapter 36: The Parting of the Ways
The title of this chapter obviously refers to Fudge and Dumbledore, but, at the time of publication, it may also have been intended to make us uneasy about Snape's return to Voldemort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The famous “gleam of triumph”! It amazes me how quickly Dumbledore’s mind worked.
I like Furry Dice's idea that it may have been a glimmer of hope that Harry might indeed survive being a horcrux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think we see the seriousness and emotion in this scene when Madam Pomfrey refers to Harry by his first name.
Yes, faculty and staff, except for Dumbledore, usually always use the students last names. It's definitely a moment of tenderness on Poppy's part. Of course with all the times the trio ended up under her care, she was probably fairly attached by the fourth year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Why did McGonagall not cast a Patronus to save Crouch Jr.? Or was the dementor simply too quick to act?
Why didn't Snape do likewise, as he was present also? And Snape probably had more experience than McGonagall with DADA. If the dementor was too fast for both of them, it smacks heavily of premeditation on Fudge's part.

This section is a bit confusing as well. Snape says "When we told Mr. Fudge that we had caught the Death Eater responsible for tonight's events. . . He insisted on summoning a dementor to accompany him into the castle." We who? Snape went alone to fetch Fudge. Perhaps they met with McGonagall outside the office and then Fudge went to get a dementor, giving him time to issue orders to it?

And Snape doesn't tell Fudge that they've caught Crouch Jr, but they've caught a Death Eater. Fudge knows exactly what that means-Voldemort must be back, a fact which he considers a political disadvantage (note how all the concerns he raises with DD revolve around maintaining his position.) It seems even the wizarding world is not immune to politics-even in the most dire of circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Reading Fudge’s objections and closed mind almost makes my blood boil!
Ditto!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think it was Fudge who originally put the dementors in charge of Azkaban after he became Minister, or were they Azkaban’s guards before Voldemort’s first war?
As mentioned above it doesn't seem that he is in position to do so at the earliest time we know they were there. Plus I read it as Fudge putting or keeping LV's supporters in Azkaban not the dementors. The dementors are very interesting: what's their origin? How, and why, does the Ministry keep them employed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I remember a bit of discussion about Ron telling his mom to “shut up” after her reaction to Sirius. What do you think of Ron’s word choice to his mother?
Seems a bit over the top-we don't hear ANY of the Weasley's ever speaking to her like that. Perhaps it was just the stress of the evening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think Rita overheard the conversation between Fudge and Dumbledore or witnessed the revelation of Sirius Black? Or had she just flown up to the window fairly recently before Hermione captured her?
Hard to tell. Though I think she would have eventually divulged everything she heard despite Hermione's threat to expose her as an unregistered animagus. So she probably arrived shortly before being caught.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Chapter 37: The Beginning

Do you think the Diggorys believed Harry and Dumbledore in OotP despite the Ministry’s defamation of their story?
It seems like they did and we don't have evidence that they ever changed their viewpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think the disregard for the House Cup during the Leaving Feast underlines the turning point in the series that GoF is.
I think Dumbledore cancelled the awarding of the House Cup to emphasize the need for unity that they would have to develop in order to defeat Voldemort. He says as much when addressing the students of Durmstrang and Beauxbatons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think Dumbledore should have been more tactful in his end-of-term speech, more explanatory so that the students would be more apt to believe him (and Harry)?
Actually, no. He needed to be very blunt as to who was responsible for not only Cedric's death, but so students knew who was to blame for the upcoming mayhem they would experience. Directly and clearly naming the enemy in such a situation is imperative. Would knowing the details help the students accept his proclamation? Possibly, but if they weren't going to take his word because they trusted their headmaster, Dumbledore expounding on the details wouldn't much sway them to any greater degree.

Musings:
After Snape leaves to meet up with Voldemort, Dumbledore watches him go with a trace of apprehension and . . . "It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again." Now, in light of the backstory we have, what do you believe he was thinking about during those few minutes?

Voldemort's apparent fear of the spirits of those he murdered is quite interesting. I think one of the components of his fear of death is meeting up in the afterlife with all those he tortured and murdered in this life. In the space created by the Priori Incantatem, there are five of them who turn and seem to have enough power as spirits to block him, however temporarily. Imagine his fear in the face of everyone he has killed. Makes me happy all over!


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Last edited by mirrormere; November 3rd, 2011 at 12:41 am.
  #1477  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 3:32 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

I think Dumbledore was worried about Snape following Sirius out of Hogwarts. True, there were several minutes between when they left, still, Snape could have done something or said something to Sirius.
I am not really surprised that Fudge didn't believe Dumbledore. Fudge never forgave Dumbledore for allowing Harry to participate in the tournament. I think Fudge believed Harry put his name in the Goblet. Plus, Rita Skeeter didn't help. Fudge thought Dumbledore was too leinent with Harry.
Voldemort might have been afraid of meeting all the spirits of people he had killed, but his fear of death went back to when he was a child. We don't know what he was told when he learned about his mother. They could have painted a story about how his mother just gave up after he was born, instead of trying to live for her son.


  #1478  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 3:11 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Except that Wormtail was right there and would have overheard the conversation.
As Wormtail was described as a "sobbing and twitching heap," I think it likely that he was too preoccupied by his own misery to really pay attention to Voldemort's conversation with Harry. It is possible that he overheard some of it, but I think Voldemort constantly saw Wormtail as less than human, someone of no significance, so he would not have bothered to speak in front of Peter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPotter
An interesting "What if" regards how different things would have been if Crouch Jr. had not been kissed by the dementor. I think things in OOTP wouldn't have been very much different. Fudge would have called it the ravings of a lunatic.
I think, though, with such hard evidence in Barty Crouch Jr. that Fudge's ruthless control of the Ministry (and Prophet) would have been complicated. I do not think people like Amelia Bones would have overlooked Crouch as did Fudge, so that Fudge would have to compete more against the truth, rather than just compete with Dumbledore's and Harry's testimonies.

If Barty Crouch had survived, though, how else do you think it would have changed the story? Do you think he would have simply been put into Azkaban (after questioning, perhaps), in which case he would have simply been one of the escaped Death Eaters in OotP and another body for Voldemort's army?
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
I must admit that gleam of triumph had me mystified until Dumbledore explained it in DH! He was so quick on the uptake here that I wonder if he'd considered the possibility before. On the other hand I can't see how he'd guess Voldemort would use Harry's blood to regenerate so perhaps not.
I agree that Dumbledore must have thought about Harry's blood before, but he would not have been able to foresee its use in Voldemort's rebirth. However, I think Dumbledore realized the magical protection that ran within Harry's veins, and he knew that that connection would at least protect Harry from Voldemort, to an extent (e.g. Voldemort would not be able to touch Harry). Thus, I think Dumbledore's mind worked very quickly to connect Voldemort's rebirth to Harry's blood protection, hence the gleam of triumph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
We know there were Dementors guarding Azkaban in the first war as Snape told Lily about them and Petunia overheard. I can't remember when Fudge became Minister or if his previous job would have entitled him to send Dementors there.
You are perfectly correct. The Minister of Magic during the first war was Elfrida Clagg and, as FurryDice said, Cornelius was Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes. So I agree that the dementors were put in place by Clagg or a predecessor. What momentarily stymied me was this comment by Dumbledore: "The rest of us sleep less soundly in our beds, Cornelius, knowing that you have put Lord Voldemort’s most dangerous supporters in the care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks them!" My interpretation of that, now, is that Dumbledore is accusing Fudge of keeping the dementors at Azkaban after the First War to guard the Death Eaters.

This raises an interesting question, though. Why did the Wizarding world consent to dementors remaining at Azkaban? Did the dementors participate in the First War at all? If they did not, it seems more reasonable that there would not be an uproar of objections to keeping the dementors as Azkaban guards. But if that is the case, why do you think they did not participate in the First War?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
After thinking about it for a while, if the Dark Mark is applied magically, it might be able to survive a Polyjuice transformation. However, the text doesn't indicate that Crouch Jr learned about LV's reincarnation in that way, as I had previously surmised.
I do not think Crouch's comments definitively indicate that he did not know Voldemort returned. I can see it both ways. Yes, he asks Harry repeatedly "The Dark Lord got his body back? He’s returned?" and "Voldemort’s back, Harry? You’re sure he’s back? How did he do it?", but perhaps those were confirmation questions. Crouch was not there, he wants to know all the details, and he wants to be sure that Voldemort was truly back (i.e. reborn and powerful again). He also says this: "Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark burn upon his arm," which may indicate that he, too, felt the Mark burn upon his arm. I think it can be interpreted either way, and I think both explanations fit with the magic of Polyjuice Potion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Why didn't Snape do likewise, as he was present also? And Snape probably had more experience than McGonagall with DADA. If the dementor was too fast for both of them, it smacks heavily of premeditation on Fudge's part.
Oh, Fudge certainly had a premeditated intent to have the Death Eater Kissed, as I see it, because the dementor "swooped down on Crouch" the moment it entered the room. Thus, the speed of the dementor, combined with catching Snape and McGonagall off guard because of the rashness of Fudge, likely prevented a Patronus from being cast. And the significance of Snape's Patronus in DH certainly adds another explanation for why he would refrain from casting one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
This section is a bit confusing as well. Snape says "When we told Mr. Fudge that we had caught the Death Eater responsible for tonight's events. . . He insisted on summoning a dementor to accompany him into the castle." We who? Snape went alone to fetch Fudge. Perhaps they met with McGonagall outside the office and then Fudge went to get a dementor, giving him time to issue orders to it?
It could have been a general "we," since Snape and McGonagall were more or less together during the Crouch/Fudge/dementor drama. I would say that your explanation is valid, too, except that Snape says that Fudge decided to summon a Death Eater before entering the castle - not the office. Great catch, though, on this confusing delivery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
And Snape doesn't tell Fudge that they've caught Crouch Jr, but they've caught a Death Eater. Fudge knows exactly what that means-Voldemort must be back, a fact which he considers a political disadvantage.
I do not think this is necessarily true. Fudge was supposedly told that the Death Eater responsible for the night's events had been apprehended. This does not necessarily mean that the Death Eater was working on Voldemort's orders, or that Voldemort had been reborn. Fudge could have (understandably) justified this by saying it was an escaped/pardoned Death Eater that was attempting to find/bring back Voldemort or gain power himself. I never thought of this before, but can anyone think of who Fudge may have been thinking of? Sirius Black, for instance, on whom Fudge had already authorized the Dementor's Kiss to be used if he was found?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
The dementors are very interesting: what's their origin? How, and why, does the Ministry keep them employed?
Dementors are very interesting, and I wish they were covered in Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them. Unfortunately, we must simply speculate. From the books, though, we know that they are fairly sentient beings (capable of desire/necessity, communication, and breeding), so asking their origin would be similar to asking the origin of a lethifold (or, perhaps, even a centaur, pixie, or wizard); in other words, it is asking the origin of life/existence, which is very difficult to succinctly answer! As for why the Ministry employs them, I think they realized how valuable dementors were at imprisoning evildoers, but also that by employing the dementors wizards controlled them. That means that they could more or less prevent dementors from naturally attacking innocents or causing unhappiness amongst humans. So I think the Ministry saw employing dementors as a way to exert wizard dominance and control potentially dangerous creatures, and also as an effective way of imprisoning wrongdoers. But it was certainly an oversight not to realize the ever present dangers that the dementors still posed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
After Snape leaves to meet up with Voldemort, Dumbledore watches him go with a trace of apprehension and . . . "It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again." Now, in light of the backstory we have, what do you believe he was thinking about during those few minutes?
This was discussed a couple of weeks ago in the Snape and Dumbledore joint character analysis thread, I believe. My interpretation is that Dumbledore's mind was racing among certainty, trust, fear, and concern. He and Snape had already discussed the growing Dark Mark, and I think Dumbledore braced himself for the moment when he would have to ask Snape to return to Voldemort. During the school year I do think Dumbledore abolished most of the vestiges of apprehension and uncertainty about Snape's loyalty, but I think he may have been minutely questioning himself after Snape's departure as to if he truly did trust Severus Snape. But, mostly, I do think he was concerned for Snape's safety and, of course, the safety of the guise. Dumbledore was incredibly dependent on Snape being well received by Voldemort, and I think Dumbledore may have been as concerned for his rapidly forming anti-Voldemort plan as he was for Snape's health and safety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Voldemort's apparent fear of the spirits of those he murdered is quite interesting. I think one of the components of his fear of death is meeting up in the afterlife with all those he tortured and murdered in this life. In the space created by the Priori Incantatem, there are five of them who turn and seem to have enough power as spirits to block him, however temporarily. Imagine his fear in the face of everyone he has killed. Makes me happy all over!
I like how Voldemort gets a taste of his powerlessness against Death. He is used to controlling and dominating the living (and even dead corpses and ghosts [e.g. the Gray Lady]), but with Priori Incantatem he was faced with the reality that he could not dominate deceased spirits/souls. While it should have been sobering and something that he investigated, I think it simply encouraged him to conquer Death even more so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
I am not really surprised that Fudge didn't believe Dumbledore. Fudge never forgave Dumbledore for allowing Harry to participate in the tournament. I think Fudge believed Harry put his name in the Goblet. Plus, Rita Skeeter didn't help. Fudge thought Dumbledore was too leinent with Harry.
Up until the Third Task I was under the impression that Fudge was still favorable to Harry. When Harry met Fudge in Dumbledore's office, Fudge was still "jovial" towards Harry. Thus, I do not think Fudge blamed Dumbledore for Harry's participation in the Tournament, and he seemed distanced from the entire Triwizard Tournament affair until the final task. This makes it even more shocking that Rita Skeeter's article on the day of the third task combined with all the events after the task was enough to completely alter Fudge's perspective on Harry, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
We don't know what he was told when he learned about his mother. They could have painted a story about how his mother just gave up after he was born, instead of trying to live for her son.
That would not have been much of a story, as it is the complete truth. But we must remember that the orphanage was run by Muggles, and Tom Riddle was not aware of a Wizarding world before Dumbledore appeared. Thus, I think they would have told young Tom that his mother died soon after childbirth after appearing at the orphanage in a pitiable and unhealthy condition.

We will continue to discuss any aspect of GoF of our choosing this week before moving on to OotP. Whether you wish to discuss the book as a whole, its implications on the series, or return to specific chapters, everything is fair game for discussion. After this week this thread will be closed and a new one will be open to continue discussion with OotP - if there is enough interest to continue it. I will repeat, if anyone would prefer to have a more administrative role in this thread, please contact me. If someone wishes to take the reins of the Read-A-Thon for the next 1500 posts, owl me and we can discuss it. In the past the staff has asked for the creator of the Read-A-Thon thread to be continuously active so that the title can be changed (without staff involvement) to suit the pace of the Read-A-Thon. I am willing to continue this duty if no one else is interested, as long as I can be sure that there is enough interest in the Read-A-Thon to, at the least, finish the next 3 books. Thanks for a great ~1,500 posts of discussion!


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  #1479  
Old November 3rd, 2011, 4:41 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
This raises an interesting question, though. Why did the Wizarding world consent to dementors remaining at Azkaban? Did the dementors participate in the First War at all? If they did not, it seems more reasonable that there would not be an uproar of objections to keeping the dementors as Azkaban guards. But if that is the case, why do you think they did not participate in the First War?
It might be we need to know more about dementors to even speculate as to why they were accepted by the wizarding world. Can they be killed? If not, then something would have to be done with them and prison guard at Azkaban might be the only way to distract them from the rest of the population--they would have no choice. DD suggests to Fudge to remove dementors as guards over LV's imprisoned DE's, but he doesn't suggest that the dementors be done away with. It seems like they might be able to starve to death, but we don't know for sure.

We don't know if they participated in the first war or not, do we? If they did not, Dumbledore was projecting, based on what he knew of dementor "psychology," how LV could persuade the dementors to support him. Otherwise his prediction was based on experience. Either way, Fudge should have taken precautions.


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  #1480  
Old November 4th, 2011, 3:52 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF

Yes, I am interested in continuing the discussions. I have forgotten some points that have come up in the discussions; I also enjoy reading other people's opinions on why things have happened. I don't know how to post links to quotes from interviews with Jo and I am not always in the forum to run the discussions. But, I will continue reading the books.


 
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