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  #1441  
Old October 15th, 2011, 4:00 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 28-30

Are we ready for the next chapter yet?


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  #1442  
Old October 15th, 2011, 1:31 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 28-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
The whole house-elf situation is interesting to me. Dobby definitely seems the odd man out--and possibly persecuted for it, which is suggested when he asks Hermionie to keep her voice down when they are in the kitchens. Every other house elf seems to want to remain enslaved to their masters, even resenting Hermione's attempts to free them.
Yes, but Dobby seems to have placed himself into that circumstance. He chose to be the odd house-elf out when he embraced freedom and asked for wages. But I think that he tried to keep that as quiet as he could in Hogwarts to lessen the judgment of the other house-elves. Of course, Dobby still wore and bought clothes, but I think the other house-elves accepted his work ethic, which remained the same: "he likes work better [than freedom]."
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
I know this is going backwards--sorry! I'm a recent member and haven't reread the books in quite awhile. But I'm puzzled as to why Snape would be nervous around, or be even slightly afraid of Moody. We know now that Snape had nothing to be afraid of and he was easily as powerful a wizard as Moody, if not more so. I think his behavior definitely increases Harry's wariness of his motivations and that helps JKR hide what's actually happening. Need more study! Thanks for the references.
Never apologize for "going backwards" - the purpose of this thread is to discuss the books in the utmost depth. While Snape did not have anything to hide (except, of course, his secret love for Lily), he presented himself as a character that was hiding something. Other than Dumbledore, no character seemed convinced in Snape's loyalties, whether evil or good. So there was always some skepticism involved in other characters' perceptions of him, and I think Snape was nervous/slightly fearful of Moody's perception because of Moody's aggressive past as an Auror. And we know that Moody had such skepticism:
GoF, Ch. 30, The Pensieve"I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

Harry turned to look at Mad-Eye Moody. He was wearing a look of deep skepticism behind Dumbledore's back.

And, also, "Moody" showed outright disdain for Snape and Snape's Death Eater past:
GoF, Ch. 25, The Egg and the Eye"'Course Dumbledore trusts you," growled Moody. "He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know what I mean?"

Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm convulsively with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt him.

Moody laughed.

Thus, Moody shows outright distrust of Snape, and I think Snape, while knowing that Moody's distrust may be warranted but was untrue, was slightly afraid of/upset by Moody's perception. Why this upset Snape, though, would be more suitable to his character analysis thread, I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
And why didn't they just 'Leviosa' Crouch with them to Dumbledore? They are wizards and have wands.
I think it returns to why Harry didn't Accio! the Marauder's Map when stuck in the step after his back, and why Lupin and Sirius did not Stun/Petrify Peter as they took him up to the castle in PoA. As I see it, while they are wizards, magic is never the most inherent aspect of their lives: they are humans first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
This has puzzled me for ages. Jo said on her site that the Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms, but that they didn't know about the prophecy. Who would have sent them, once Voldemort was gone? Who, apart from the Lestranges and Barty Jnr would have wanted to find Voldemort again?
This is true; I had forgotten about that statement:
Jkrowling.com, RumoursThe Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him.

No, they weren’t, they were very definitely sent after Neville’s parents. I can’t say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.

From this, I think the Lestranges were given, by Voldemort, the assignment to track down the Longbottoms - before Voldemort's death. I think Voldemort, knowing that both Neville and Harry could be referenced by the prophecy, chose to personally eliminate Harry, but that he would also kill Neville to destroy any other possible threat. While he targeted the Potters personally, I think he sent his most loyal subject, Bellatrix, to target the Longbottoms. Just as with the Horcrux, I think Voldemort would have told Bellatrix enough to give her a reason to hunt the Longbottoms, but omitting the prophecy information.

Thus, I would not be surprised if Bellatrix and company had been tracking the Longbottoms, and after Voldemort's death the Longbottoms were no longer hiding/they were visible (Do you think Dumbledore did send the Longbottoms into hiding, too, just in case?) and Bellatrix saw a chance to strike. Not knowing Voldemort's intent for hunting the Longbottoms, I think Bellatrix would have assumed that Frank and Alice must know something important, which may relate to bringing back Voldemort. Thus, they tortured the Longbottoms for any possible information on Voldemort. To me, that seems a fairly reasonable explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
I always saw Fred as the more hotheaded of the twins and George as the more considerate. Not that he isn't out for mishief like his brother but he seems a gentler character on the whole. I suppose two just like Fred would be a bit much.
I agree. And I think that is why most fans can have a preference for a twin. Personally, I am drawn to Fred slightly more than George, though it is difficult to explain why at times!
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
Maybe it tells us something of the limitations of Reparo? That it can put broken pieces back together but can't undo water damage? All the examples I can think of for its use (train windows etc) involve broken pieces.
This is a good explanation, and I think you must be correct. Reparo does seem to be used to simply put broken fragments back together, rather than repair some inward function. That, to me, makes it more of a superficial charm - though certainly useful - as it only repairs the outward integrity of an object and not necessarily the object's functionality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
That sounds interesting. Would you like to enlarge on what you mean by ' balanced between utility and danger'?
The Pensieve is a fascinating object, one that allows the user to see parts of memories that the user does not even recall. Obviously, there is incredible usefulness in that function, as Dumbledore admits: "it becomes easier to spot patterns and links" - hence why he used it to explore past events in the GoF and HBP. Simultaneously, though, I think knowledge can be dangerous, and the Pensieve allows one to explore facets of memories formerly unknown to that person - aspects of the memory that one may be better of not learning. As Harry indicates with experiencing Snape's Worst Memory, the truths of the Pensieve can be painful, and I think they can also be dangerous given the type of knowledge that was formerly hidden in one's mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
Yep! Is it another illustration of wizards not getting Muggle clothes quite right? Maybe he'd seen British politicians in bowlers and wanted to see it as a 'badge of office' but didn't get it quite right.
This is an interesting idea. One thing I do - at least halfway - respect Cornelius for is his apparent accepting of Muggles. He seems to think of the Muggle Prime Minister as a rough equal, and he does not hesitate to confide in him when others are critical (e.g. when he told the Prime Minister about Sirius Black).
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
It depends I suppose on how much Karkaroff had learned before he went to Azkaban and while he was in there. Also I got the impression that Voldemort didn't always let his DEs know who the others were (though I can't remember where I picked that up from) so he might not have known some of them.
Exactly. It is certainly possible that Karkaroff simply did not know about Bellatrix and company - especially given the high status of Bellatrix in Voldemort's ranks, and Barty Crouch Jr.'s important affiliation with the Ministry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Perhaps this suggests she and the others were literally caught red-handed, perhaps at the Longbottom home, as she did not try to lie her way out a second time, to find her master?
I think something of this sort is true, as the entire Council of Magical Law seemed absolutely convinced in the guilt of the Lestranges and Crouch. Sirius tells us, too, that Crouch Jr. may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, which, to me, indicates that the Ministry/Order were able to witness some of the cruelty and/or watch the Death Eaters attempt to flee. I think the Ministry/Order would have to have had some element of surprise in order to subdue Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Rabastan, and Barty Crouch Jr. (though, of course, the latter may have avoided acting so that he could try to lie his way out).

On a somewhat relevant note, how do you think Moody lost his eye? In Karkaroff's trial, Moody has both his normal eyes. We do not have a description of him in the other memories, so do you think it is possible that Moody was involved in subduing the Lestranges?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Knowingly giving information to a DE would have made him an accessory. He wasn't charged with being a Death Eater, he was called to answer "charges relating to the activities of the Death Eaters". He was caught passing information to Voldemort's supporters - something if done knowingly, would be criminal.
You are right, of course. I somehow incorporated Harry's own initial presumption into my question ('Harry couldn't believe his ears. Ludo Bagman, a Death Eater?'), when, in fact, Harry's ears never heard that charge!
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
Are we ready for the next chapter yet?
Yes, despite my hopes for sticking to the weekly schedule, the discussion on the previous to chapters did not pick up until after that Tuesday deadline. So we will just adjust the next three chapters to fit the discussion level and, hopefully, return to a more regimented schedule sooner than later! I will post some of my own prompts as soon as I get a bit more time!


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  #1443  
Old October 15th, 2011, 6:51 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 28-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Apparently Crouch Jr./Moody saw Harry, Snape and Dumbledore together on the map and surmised what was going on since he had overheard Harry say where he was going and why. Perhaps Dumbledore was too busy to check with Snape on Crouch Jr./Moody's story--and really, at that point, there was no need verify those facts as his suspicions weren't aroused about Crouch Jr./Moody's identity or veracity.
Yeah, it makes sense that Crouch had seen the three of them on the Map. However, there was still the risk that it would come up in conversation between Dumbledore and Snape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Thus, I would not be surprised if Bellatrix and company had been tracking the Longbottoms, and after Voldemort's death the Longbottoms were no longer hiding/they were visible (Do you think Dumbledore did send the Longbottoms into hiding, too, just in case?) and Bellatrix saw a chance to strike. Not knowing Voldemort's intent for hunting the Longbottoms, I think Bellatrix would have assumed that Frank and Alice must know something important, which may relate to bringing back Voldemort. Thus, they tortured the Longbottoms for any possible information on Voldemort. To me, that seems a fairly reasonable explanation.
This makes a lot of sense. It's far too coincidental that the other family destroyed around the same time as Harry's was that of the other possible child of the prophecy. I can see the idea that Voldemort sent Bellatrix and co. to track down the Longbottoms, without telling them why.

Quote:
Exactly. It is certainly possible that Karkaroff simply did not know about Bellatrix and company - especially given the high status of Bellatrix in Voldemort's ranks, and Barty Crouch Jr.'s important affiliation with the Ministry.
But he knew Lucius and did not name him. And in the graveyard, Voldemort had no hesitation in naming several of his followers in front of nearly all of their fellows 9those who were still at large) - including those with Ministry influence, like MacNair and Lucius Malfoy. I'm inclined to wonder how truthful Karkaroff was being - or was there something to gain by not naming Lucius? Perhaps Lucius had bribed some Ministry officials, or members of the Wizengamot to ensure Karkaroff was released, in exchange for Karkaroff not naming him? Lucius was cleared, but it wouldn't help his case if he was named by another DE.

Quote:
On a somewhat relevant note, how do you think Moody lost his eye? In Karkaroff's trial, Moody has both his normal eyes. We do not have a description of him in the other memories, so do you think it is possible that Moody was involved in subduing the Lestranges?
I like that idea - I can see Bellatrix or one of her group doing something like that - they wouldn't have gone quietly, anyhow.


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  #1444  
Old October 16th, 2011, 3:36 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 28-30

How was it that the portrait of the Fat lady was able to scold Molly Weasley from coming back late from a date with Arthur when she was at Hogwarts?


  #1445  
Old October 16th, 2011, 11:35 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 28-30

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Yeah, it makes sense that Crouch had seen the three of them on the Map. However, there was still the risk that it would come up in conversation between Dumbledore and Snape.
It always amazes me that Barty Crouch Jr. gambled so highly with this risk - especially since Voldemort was under the impression that Snape had left him forever. But I think the situation warranted the risk, as Crouch Jr. had to detain Crouch quickly, which meant that he had to be monitoring the perimeter of the Hogwarts grounds rather than wait inside the castle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
But he knew Lucius and did not name him.
Do we know how long Karkaroff knew Lucius? Draco only says that Lucius "knows the headmaster [of Durmstrang], you see." So the minimum amount of time that Lucius has known Karkaroff would be around 4 years, before Draco went to Hogwarts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
And in the graveyard, Voldemort had no hesitation in naming several of his followers in front of nearly all of their fellows 9those who were still at large) - including those with Ministry influence, like MacNair and Lucius Malfoy. I'm inclined to wonder how truthful Karkaroff was being - or was there something to gain by not naming Lucius? Perhaps Lucius had bribed some Ministry officials, or members of the Wizengamot to ensure Karkaroff was released, in exchange for Karkaroff not naming him? Lucius was cleared, but it wouldn't help his case if he was named by another DE.
You make a good point, but I think the circumstances around Voldemort's rebirth differ from his initial rise to power. He was overcome by emotion and he was scathing toward his Death Eaters; I think he lacked some of his normal composure, and he did not see the necessity to hide others' identities. I think this was a risky move, given the unfaithfulness these Death Eaters had already shown him. But he seemed to only identify certain Death Eaters that he was most unhappy with ("Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them.").

But I do agree that Karkaroff was lying, to an extent. Interestingly, Sirius tells Harry earlier that Karkaroff "put a load of other people into Azkaban in his place." If Sirius's account his true, then that means Karkaroff also revealed other names at another time or that the memory we witnessed is incomplete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
How was it that the portrait of the Fat lady was able to scold Molly Weasley from coming back late from a date with Arthur when she was at Hogwarts?
There are several instances where the Fat Lady interacts with Gryffindor students, even scolding them at times. It is up to the student to say the password (which the Fat Lady can only partly refuse) in order to avoid her discourse! Here are some examples of the Fat Lady interacting with Gryffindor students:
SS, The Midnight DuelThey didn’t stop running until they reached the portrait of the Fat Lady on the seventh floor.

“Where on earth have you all been?” she asked, looking at their bathrobes hanging off their shoulders and their flushed, sweaty faces.

“Never mind that — pig snout, pig snout,” panted Harry, and the portrait swung forward.

GoF, The Four ChampionsThe wizened witch who had flitted into her neighbor’s painting when he had joined the champions downstairs was now sitting smugly beside the Fat Lady. She must have dashed through every picture lining seven staircases to reach here before him. Both she and the Fat Lady were looking down at him with the keenest interest.

“Well, well, well,” said the Fat Lady, “Violet’s just told me everything. Who’s just been chosen as school champion, then?”

“Balderdash,” said Harry dully.

“It most certainly isn’t!” said the pale witch indignantly.

“No, no, Vi, it’s the password,” said the Fat Lady soothingly, and she swung forward on her hinges to let Harry into the common room.

HBP, HorcruxesBy the time he got up to the portrait of the Fat Lady and pulled off his Invisibility Cloak, he was not surprised to find her in a most unhelpful mood.

“What sort of time do you call this?”

“I’m really sorry — I had to go out for something important —”

“Well, the password changed at midnight, so you’ll just have to sleep in the corridor, won’t you?”

“You’re joking!” said Harry. “Why did it have to change at midnight?”

“That’s the way it is,” said the Fat Lady. “If you’re angry, go and take it up with the headmaster, he’s the one who’s tightened security.”
[...]
“Come back! All right, I lied! I was annoyed you woke me up! The password’s still ‘tapeworm’!”

So I do not find the Fat Lady scolding Molly at all different from her sentience we are shown throughout the books.

Chapter 31: The Third Task

Why do you think Sirius believed (or did he just feign confidence) in this statement: "He [Voldemort] cannot hope to lay hands on you while you are under Dumbledore’s protection"? After all, Sirius has been the one throughout the story that has realized the potential for the antagonist to be acting from within Hogwarts, under Dumbledore's nose. Was that comment purely an attempt to reassure Harry?

What does it tell you about Wizarding media, Wizarding government, and even Hogwarts school that Rita Skeeter is able to publish libeling articles about a 14-year-old? Do you think that the Wizarding authorities should have been able to exert more protection over Harry's public image? After all, Fudge shows in OotP that the Ministry can heavily influence the Prophet.

Do you think it was necessary to exempt Harry and Cedric from their end-of-term exams? Especially in Cedric's case, he would be missing the N.E.W.T. examinations; what do you think he did/would have done to make up those exams, which seem fairly vital in establishing a Wizarding career?

I wonder if Bill and the portrait of Violet have a slight history, given Violet's wink to him in the chamber.

One has to respect Ron's honesty to Mrs. Weasley about how he did on his History of Magic Exam!

I am always intrigued by the golden mist enchantment that flipped the world upside down. It seems like extraordinary magic - something that would be worthy of study in the Department of Mysteries.

I am half-surprised Hagrid did not bring Fluffy back for the Triwizard Tournament! But I suppose the three-headed dog would be an almost impossible obstacle for someone who did not know his weakness!

What do you think would have happened if Cedric did take the Triwizard Cup Portkey, alone?

Do you think Harry should feel guilty/partly responsible for Cedric's death, as he was the one who suggested they both take the Cup?


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  #1446  
Old October 17th, 2011, 11:13 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Chapter 31: The Third Task

Why do you think Sirius believed (or did he just feign confidence) in this statement: "He [Voldemort] cannot hope to lay hands on you while you are under Dumbledore’s protection"? After all, Sirius has been the one throughout the story that has realized the potential for the antagonist to be acting from within Hogwarts, under Dumbledore's nose. Was that comment purely an attempt to reassure Harry?
I think he was exercising some power of postive thinking there. And trying to reassure himself as well as Harry. He knew better than anyone it was possible to get into Hogwarts without Dumbledore knowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
What does it tell you about Wizarding media, Wizarding government, and even Hogwarts school that Rita Skeeter is able to publish libeling articles about a 14-year-old? Do you think that the Wizarding authorities should have been able to exert more protection over Harry's public image? After all, Fudge shows in OotP that the Ministry can heavily influence the Prophet.
I think the main reason Skeeter and the Prophet could get away with such a thing was because Fudge was most likely encouraging it. It backed up what he himself thought of Harry.

Their government definitely needs some development--seems more rule of will vs. rule of law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think it was necessary to exempt Harry and Cedric from their end-of-term exams? Especially in Cedric's case, he would be missing the N.E.W.T. examinations; what do you think he did/would have done to make up those exams, which seem fairly vital in establishing a Wizarding career?
I can see how they would need the extra time to prepare, but it seems Cedric would have to take his NEWTs at some point. Or maybe he just got an automatic Outstanding in everything for being the Hogwart's champion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I am always intrigued by the golden mist enchantment that flipped the world upside down. It seems like extraordinary magic - something that would be worthy of study in the Department of Mysteries.
That was pretty cool stuff. I like how JKR described how it "twinkled innocently" at Harry after he figured out how to escape it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I am half-surprised Hagrid did not bring Fluffy back for the Triwizard Tournament! But I suppose the three-headed dog would be an almost impossible obstacle for someone who did not know his weakness!
But that would have given Harry an unfair advantage, wouldn't it? Since he knew the secret?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
What do you think would have happened if Cedric did take the Triwizard Cup Portkey, alone?
He's still a spare. And LV would have done away with him just to keep the plot a secret and perhaps have another go at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think Harry should feel guilty/partly responsible for Cedric's death, as he was the one who suggested they both take the Cup?
He shouldn't as there was no way he could have guessed what would happen. But that's never stopped him from feeling guilty before!

At the same time, he knew something was fishy about how his name was entered into the Goblet of Fire and perhaps should have taken that into account. And really--every year it's was always Voldemort behind the weird happenings.

Here's a question: In Skeeter's article an unnamed wizard is referenced as saying..."serpents are often used in the worst kinds of Dark Magic, and are historically associated with evildoers." Since we know that a boomslang is a snake and boomslang skin is used in Polyjuice Potion, is that mixture perhaps leaning a bit to the dark side?


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Last edited by mirrormere; October 18th, 2011 at 7:52 pm.
  #1447  
Old October 18th, 2011, 1:31 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
He's still a spare. And LV would have done away with him just to keep the plot a secret and perhaps have another go at it.
I agree. i think Voldemort would have had him killed and made it look like he died as a result of the tournament. It would only have meant Moody/Crouch would have to devise another plan for getting Harry, which perhaps didn't include the tournament, because that was the last event.


Quote:
Here's a question: In Skeeter's article an unnamed wizard is referenced as saying..."serpents are often used in the worst kinds of Dark Magic, and are historically associated with evildoers." Since we know that a boomslang is a snake and boomslang skin is used in Polyjuice Potion, is that mixture perhaps leaning a bit to the dark side?
I think so. I can't see how impersonating a person can really be considered a "positive" action, overall, no matter the results. And in order for Hermione to get the potion instructions, didn't she have to get them from "Most Potente Potions," a book in the restricted section of the library?


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  #1448  
Old October 18th, 2011, 8:05 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
I think so. I can't see how impersonating a person can really be considered a "positive" action, overall, no matter the results.
That always did strike me as deceitful, though it does a wonderful job for several storylines!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
And in order for Hermione to get the potion instructions, didn't she have to get them from "Most Potente Potions," a book in the restricted section of the library?
And I had forgotten about that. She most certainly did.

My impression of the restricted section was that it was regulated because of the difficulty of attaining the desired results described in the books by unsupervised or uneducated students and that they might hurt themselves or others. That it was restricted because it contained information on Dark Magic apparently never really sunk in for me--even after learning that the books on horcruxes used to be there. I mean this is a school for children after all. Why keep books like that around?

And as for being restricted--you would think that section would also be protected by spells to repel unqualified students. It worked for the Goblet of Fire. As it was, anyone could get access if they really wanted to.


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  #1449  
Old October 20th, 2011, 4:30 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

I wonder how they got the Sphinx to the maze? I know they had to notify the Muggle Prime Minister, still, it wasn't a small item.


  #1450  
Old October 22nd, 2011, 1:41 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
I think the main reason Skeeter and the Prophet could get away with such a thing was because Fudge was most likely encouraging it. It backed up what he himself thought of Harry.
I agree that this was the case in OotP, but not in GoF. Throughout GoF Fudge was still accepting, inviting, and cordial towards Harry. Not until Harry returned from the graveyard announcing Voldemort's return did Fudge lose that partiality toward Harry and begin to see Harry as an adversary.

Thus, in GoF Rita Skeeter's publications in the Prophet seem unaffected by the Ministry. And perhaps that is because the Wizarding World has a level of freedom of the press, and Fudge only began abusing that when he needed to. But I see the case of libeling Harry as an overstep of protections that should have been place over the life of a 14-year-old. In OotP through DH we are shown that the Ministry could influence the Prophet, and I wonder why they would not have influenced it to protect children that were attacked without provocation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
I can see how they would need the extra time to prepare, but it seems Cedric would have to take his NEWTs at some point. Or maybe he just got an automatic Outstanding in everything for being the Hogwart's champion?
I think the former is morel likely: I do not think being selected by the Goblet of Fire would be indicative of one's intelligence/knowledge equaling Outstanding N.E.W.T.s in all classes. Perhaps Cedric was exempt from the end-of-term exams, but given those exams were his N.E.W.T.s he still chose to take them? Or he chose to delay taking them until the summer, if there was such a program?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
But that would have given Harry an unfair advantage, wouldn't it? Since he knew the secret?
I never saw Hagrid as necessarily impartial! But, yes, I think that would be a reason Fluffy would not have been cleared for use: Dumbledore, at the least, would have known that no one could get past him unless they knew his weakness: a weakness that took even Voldemort months to uncover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
He's still a spare. And LV would have done away with him just to keep the plot a secret and perhaps have another go at it.
I think the complications would have been potentially severe, though, for Voldemort. This scenario forces us to imagine Voldemort's intended plan in killing and sending back Harry and how he expected to keep hidden his rebirth. And there is an entire thread on that and how the Portkey was meant to work. So I think it would have been very complicated: if Voldemort killed Cedric, would he simply send the body back with the Portkey and hope that Cedric's death would be explained by the third task? If he allowed Cedric to live (without having Cedric see anything to be incredibly suspicious) how Cedric's testimony impact things? Would Voldemort decide to use Cedric's blood to be reborn rather than try again to get Harry's? If so, then that would complicate the entire plot of Harry's and Voldemort's blood connection. So I think that had Cedric won alone the impacts would be far-reaching and, for us, very speculative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Here's a question: In Skeeter's article an unnamed wizard is referenced as saying..."serpents are often used in the worst kinds of Dark Magic, and are historically associated with evildoers." Since we know that a boomslang is a snake and boomslang skin is used in Polyjuice Potion, is that mixture perhaps leaning a bit to the dark side?
I agree with MerryLore that the Polyjuice Potion is far from innocent, and that while it may not be classified as a "Dark" potion, it certainly had qualities that Dark wizards could (and did) easily abuse.

But I would take the testimony from that wizard with a grain of salt, given that he was a member of the Dark Force Defense League - the same league that Gilderoy Lockhart was a member of! Thus, I have always mildly questioned the accuracy of that testimony (though, of course, Lockhart was also awarded an Order of Merlin, though we know that the achievement of Orders of Merlin could be contrived, too). I do not doubt that the essence of that statement is correct: snakes are associated with Slytherin, Parseltongue is linked to Dark wizards, and snakes are prevalent in Dark wizard/witch Muggle lore as well. But I think it is difficult to claim a potion is Dark because of its requirement of snake ingredients (e.g. some love potions use Ashwinder eggs and snake fangs are used in boil-cure potions). I think that statement by the anonymous wizard is made with a great deal of bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
I mean this is a school for children after all. Why keep books like that around?

And as for being restricted--you would think that section would also be protected by spells to repel unqualified students. It worked for the Goblet of Fire. As it was, anyone could get access if they really wanted to.
Harry notes in SS/PS that the Restricted Section contained books for upper-level study of Defense Against the Dark Arts (and likely other advanced courses as well). So I think there was certainly some utility in these books for the students, though I also perceive the Restricted Section and the Hogwarts library in general as a grand collection of books throughout the centuries, so that it is as much a resource as a historical collection.

It is interesting that - unlike in the movie - the Restricted Section is only separated from the rest of the library by a low-hanging rope. But I do not think "anyone" could get access if they wanted to, given the hawk-eyes of Madam Pince would have always caught violators during library hours. And, amazingly, it seems that Harry and his friends were among a minority of students who violated nighttime hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
I wonder how they got the Sphinx to the maze? I know they had to notify the Muggle Prime Minister, still, it wasn't a small item.
Sphinxes seem much more sentient than dragons. I do not think a sphinx would have been brought into the tournament unless it agreed to come. That, or wizards overpowered the sphinx and forced her into the maze; but given the sphinx's casual, unperturbed actions, I think it more likely that she came willingly with the promise of protecting a "treasure" with a riddle.

Chapter 32: Flesh, Blood, and Bone

Do you think Pettigrew's hand being used to rebirth Voldemort created a special bond between those two wizards, or would the lack of magical protection in Pettigrew's blood and/or his willing sacrifice nullify any similar connection as we see between Harry and Voldemort?

Do you think there is a significance to the colors the potions changed? Blue with the bone of the father, red with the flesh of the servant, and white with the blood of the enemy?

Chapter 33: The Death Eaters

Why do you think Voldemort relayed his family history to Harry?

What does it say about Voldemort that he told Harry that the Death Eaters were his "true family." Did he really think of them in this way?

What did Voldemort tell his Death Eaters about "the steps [he] took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death," since he apparently did not divulge the secret of the Horcruxes?

Harry's hopes for the police to come, to me, show how desperate and scared he is, but also how unnatural his magic is to him sometimes.

Very subtle foreshadowing with the true danger of Peter's silver hand when Voldemort says, "May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail."

More excellent foreshadowing on Voldemort's multiple Horcruxes with the statement, "...it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked."

I enjoy Voldemort's sadistic humor with, "Well, one of them was already at hand, was it not, Wormtail? Flesh given by a servant…"


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  #1451  
Old October 22nd, 2011, 6:12 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

chap. 32. I don't think there was any special connection between Voldemort and Wormtail. I think if there was, Wormtail's silver hand wouldn't have killed him. Voldemort was Wormtail's master and that was the only connection that I could see.
I never thought about there being a significance with the potion changing colors. Whenever Harry was in Potions class, potions always changed colors when certain ingredients were added. then too, the whole concoction was heated. That might have had something to do with the colors changing.
I think Voldemort wanted to brag to Harry how he overcame his poor background and became a "great wizard". And even though he called the DE's his true family, I don't think he really meant them as a family; he never trusted any of them.
My first thought about what he told the DE's about his steps he took to guard against death, I didn't think he really explained what he did, but then somehow, Regulus Black found out about the horcruxes, so Voldemort had to tell someone about horcruxes, unless he just said he found a way to defeat death. Voldemort talked in riddles here. I think a lot of his followers didn't understand what he was saying. I just had a thought, if he did talk about the horcruxes in detail, how he made them, I wonder if he killed that person afterwards?


  #1452  
Old October 23rd, 2011, 3:22 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I agree that this was the case in OotP, but not in GoF. Throughout GoF Fudge was still accepting, inviting, and cordial towards Harry. Not until Harry returned from the graveyard announcing Voldemort's return did Fudge lose that partiality toward Harry and begin to see Harry as an adversary.
True, but I seem to recall the Ministry exerting quite a bit of influence over the Prophet later on, so minimally, Fudge didn't put a stop to it. Why was that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Thus, in GoF Rita Skeeter's publications in the Prophet seem unaffected by the Ministry. And perhaps that is because the Wizarding World has a level of freedom of the press, and Fudge only began abusing that when he needed to. But I see the case of libeling Harry as an overstep of protections that should have been place over the life of a 14-year-old. In OotP through DH we are shown that the Ministry could influence the Prophet, and I wonder why they would not have influenced it to protect children that were attacked without provocation.
Even in our world "famous" children are reported on and not everything is written in the best possible light. Of course they have lawyers and agents that take the rags to task over such matters on their behalf, and Harry really had no one to help him there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I think the complications would have been potentially severe, though, for Voldemort. This scenario forces us to imagine Voldemort's intended plan in killing and sending back Harry and how he expected to keep hidden his rebirth. And there is an entire thread on that and how the Portkey was meant to work. So I think it would have been very complicated: if Voldemort killed Cedric, would he simply send the body back with the Portkey and hope that Cedric's death would be explained by the third task? If he allowed Cedric to live (without having Cedric see anything to be incredibly suspicious) how Cedric's testimony impact things? Would Voldemort decide to use Cedric's blood to be reborn rather than try again to get Harry's? If so, then that would complicate the entire plot of Harry's and Voldemort's blood connection. So I think that had Cedric won alone the impacts would be far-reaching and, for us, very speculative.
And speculation stops us how? Hahahahahaha!

I think Voldemort would have just left Cedric's body in the graveyard-perhaps even burying it. Who would find it? He was fixated on Harry and I think would have attempted his kidnapping again.

Here's a thought: what if Moody/Crouch Jr was able to attach a "flesh memory" to the cup so that it only ported when Harry touched it? I imagine that might be possible.


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Last edited by mirrormere; October 23rd, 2011 at 3:33 am.
  #1453  
Old October 23rd, 2011, 11:21 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
chap. 32. I don't think there was any special connection between Voldemort and Wormtail. I think if there was, Wormtail's silver hand wouldn't have killed him. Voldemort was Wormtail's master and that was the only connection that I could see.
I agree that there was likely no special connection between Voldemort and Wormtail, but my reasoning is not that the silver hand would not have killed Peter. As I see it, Voldemort created the silver hand to kill Wormtail if Wormtail's loyalty wavered again. Thus, connection or not, I think the hand would have done its job. My explanation for why there was apparently no extra connection between the two wizards is the intent behind the connection. Though Wormtail used his own flesh and blood to resurrect Voldemort (just as Harry's blood was used), Wormtail's sacrifice was willing, whereas Harry's was forced. I think that willingness/choice on Wormtail's part would have nullified any possible magical connection - whereas Harry's sacrifice was forcibly taken, despite Harry's objection. And, of course, there is the aspect that Harry and Voldemort's destinies were entwined more than any other wizards we know of, and Wormtail and Voldemort simply did not have those connections.

I think it would have been interesting, though, if Wormtail's life debt to Harry was somehow transferred to Voldemort when Wormtail used his own hand to rebirth Voldemort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
And even though he called the DE's his true family, I don't think he really meant them as a family; he never trusted any of them.
We know he trusted Lucius and Bellatrix with his Horcruxes, though he did not trust them with the information of what they truly were. But, I agree: just as he tells Dumbledore that his Death Eaters were "friends" (in HBP, Lord Voldemort's Request), I think he was lying to Harry/deluded when he called his Death Eaters his "family." Perhaps "family of servants."
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
My first thought about what he told the DE's about his steps he took to guard against death, I didn't think he really explained what he did, but then somehow, Regulus Black found out about the horcruxes, so Voldemort had to tell someone about horcruxes, unless he just said he found a way to defeat death. Voldemort talked in riddles here. I think a lot of his followers didn't understand what he was saying. I just had a thought, if he did talk about the horcruxes in detail, how he made them, I wonder if he killed that person afterwards?
I do not think Voldemort ever mentioned Horcruxes, or his making of them, to his Death Eaters. Here are Dumbledore's thoughts on the matter, which I trust:
HBP, Horcruxes"Then you told me, two years later, that on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eaters. ‘I who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality.’ That was what you told me he said. ‘Further than anybody!’ And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes, Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I don’t believe any other wizard has ever had."

Thus, Dumbledore does not think Voldemort told his Death Eaters about his Horcruxes, and I doubt that he even told them that he had made one Horcrux - otherwise, Lucius and Bellatrix may have been able to realize that what they protected could have been a Horcrux. Although Voldemort told his Death Eaters that they knew the steps he had taken to ensure immortality, I rather think that he just made it known that his chief goal was immortality, and he would "update" the Death Eaters occasionally with small statements of getting closer, finding a way, becoming more invincible, etc. But never revealing the Horcruxes. Yes, Regulus discovered Voldemort's Horcrux (we do not know if he realized Voldemort created multiple ones, though), but he writes in the note that he discovered Voldemort's "secret." So I doubt that Voldemort ever told anyone - save for, perhaps, Nagini - that he had created one or more Horcruxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
True, but I seem to recall the Ministry exerting quite a bit of influence over the Prophet later on, so minimally, Fudge didn't put a stop to it. Why was that?
I am a little unclear on your meaning here, I apologize. Why was it that in GoF Fudge minimally influenced the Prophet to stop it libeling Harry? If that is the question, I think it is because controlling the Prophet did not occur to Fudge. Not until OotP did he, in my interpretation, realize how useful the Prophet could be for his propaganda against Dumbledore. I do not think Ministry interference with the Prophet was technically allowed, due to a freedom of the press, but Fudge influenced the Prophet more or less under the table when he needed something. But in GoF the circumstances were not dire enough (or, I should say, beneficial enough for him) to interfere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Even in our world "famous" children are reported on and not everything is written in the best possible light. Of course they have lawyers and agents that take the rags to task over such matters on their behalf, and Harry really had no one to help him there.
This is certainly true, but it makes me wonder about the absence of child welfare agencies/attorneys to protect minors from media attention. And it is not so much the media attention as it is the defamation/libel that draws my attention. But perhaps Wizarding law requires the victim to oppose the media's libel of him/her in order for official action to be taken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
And speculation stops us how? Hahahahahaha!
Speculation never stops us! Without it, none of us would be on these forums!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
I think Voldemort would have just left Cedric's body in the graveyard-perhaps even burying it. Who would find it? He was fixated on Harry and I think would have attempted his kidnapping again.
I am unsure that Voldemort would have simply left Cedric's body in Little Hangleton. The purpose, as I interpret it, for Voldemort's complex plan of kidnapping Harry was so that he could use Harry's blood to be reborn, kill Harry, and be resurrected without suspicion of his return. If Cedric (or even Harry, for that matter) had never returned out of the maze, I think it would have alerted the authorities - or Dumbledore, at least - that foul play was at work; and at this time, just as with the Gringotts break-in in SS/PS, people would wonder if Voldemort was behind it. Thus, in order to maintain the secrecy of his return, I think Voldemort would have returned Cedric's body to the maze.

But I wonder if he would have killed Cedric at all, in this scenario. I do not think Voldemort would have used Cedric's blood to be reborn and that he would try again for Harry. Thus, killing Cedric would simply complicate matters, especially when Voldemort remained fragile and body-less. I am more inclined to think that they would have performed a memory charm on Cedric to make him forget about Little Hangleton/the graveyard and return him to the maze. Then, Cedric wins the Triwizard Tournament, the supposed danger to Harry seemingly passes (thus, perhaps, reassuring those around him), and suspicions of Voldemort's return are not formed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Here's a thought: what if Moody/Crouch Jr was able to attach a "flesh memory" to the cup so that it only ported when Harry touched it? I imagine that might be possible.
This is an interesting idea. We have an insufficient knowledge of Portkeys, so we cannot really say for certain if this would be possible. But given a flesh memory charm can be placed on a Snitch, perhaps a variation of it could be placed on the Triwizard Cup Portkey. Barty Crouch Jr. was able to Confund the Goblet of Fire, so perhaps he could have specialized the Triwizard Cup Portkey to be activated only by Harry. Good thought.


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  #1454  
Old October 24th, 2011, 2:35 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Voldemort Crucio'd a DE who crawls on hands and knees and begs for forgiveness. but, he does nothing to Lucius, why Crucio someone, everyone else just got a reminder to do better or something.


  #1455  
Old October 24th, 2011, 7:12 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 31-33

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
Voldemort Crucio'd a DE who crawls on hands and knees and begs for forgiveness. but, he does nothing to Lucius, why Crucio someone, everyone else just got a reminder to do better or something.
I think he just used Avery as an example thus terrifying everyone else into submission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think Pettigrew's hand being used to rebirth Voldemort created a special bond between those two wizards, or would the lack of magical protection in Pettigrew's blood and/or his willing sacrifice nullify any similar connection as we see between Harry and Voldemort?
The story doesn't seem to indicate that there is a connection between either Wormtail or Riddle. It seems the incantation only recognized Wormtail's flesh as an ingredient and discarded his blood. Perhaps magic only accompanies actual blood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Do you think there is a significance to the colors the potions changed? Blue with the bone of the father, red with the flesh of the servant, and white with the blood of the enemy?
Not anything I can see. Blue, red and white are the colors of England's flag-not seeing any significance there. It's also the color of the 3 Eleven rings in TLOTR- but why should that mean anything in HP's world? Blue (indigo) is at one end of the visible light spectrum while red is at the other end. Mixing all colors of the visible spectrum together gives you white, but I'm not connecting any particular meaning there. And that's pretty much all I've got!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Chapter 33: The Death Eaters

Why do you think Voldemort relayed his family history to Harry?
That has always puzzled me. He is so against Muggles and Muggle borns, why does he admit to it? It completely nullifies his theories about magical blood since "the most powerful wizard of all time" had a Muggle father. He has projected his hate for his father abandoning him upon an entire segment of humanity. And he completely refuses to acknowledge that a Muggle born imbued her son with such powerful magic that it nearly defeated LV himself.

I think that at the moment of his reincarnation, partially made possible because he killed his father, his jubilation at his own cleverness required that he comment on it-there is no one else around to appreciate what he has just accomplished and he seems to consider Harry an equal. (Otherwise it's called exposition.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
What does it say about Voldemort that he told Harry that the Death Eaters were his "true family." Did he really think of them in this way?
It tells me he is a psychopath. It doesn't seem that he was so horribly mistreated at the orphanage, so where does he get all this hate from? Most likely what an upbringing in an orphanage didn't provide him with was sufficient, in his opinion, stroking of his ego. There is a difference between wanting to be loved and wanting to be worshipped. The "real" family he surrounded himself with didn't love him in a familial sense; they worshipped him because of his power. And that's what he preferred to actual love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
What did Voldemort tell his Death Eaters about "the steps [he] took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death," since he apparently did not divulge the secret of the Horcruxes?
Well he says "They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, . . " So we can't be certain what he told or to whom. Regulus knew he was dealing with horcruxes but obviously Snape did not or he would have passed that information on to DD-which is possibly the reason LV didn't tell him.

The term Death Eater has always intrigued me. "Eating Death" seems more synonymous with overcoming death-not necessarily causing death. It rather suggests that LV promised his followers, in some way, that by joining him they could become immortal (most religions promise this in some way or another.) That would be a powerful recruiting tool. Since one earned DE status by proving one's loyalty and usefulness to LV, I can easily see him promising such a benefit for his inner circle.

Following this line of reasoning: DD remarked that LV's greatest fear was death. Not given much to empathy, he would assume that was the greatest fear of all people. So he initially gains followers by threat: join me and I won't kill you. I think he somehow sensed this would not be enough and so then attempts to secure loyalty through enticement: prove yourself and I'll provide you with immortality-you will become one of my Death Eaters.

But LV, of course, is mistaken. Most other people have greater fears than death: loss of freedom is one; loss of loved ones is another-and neither sentiments Voldemort would understand.

In light of such a scenario, it would be extraordinarily significant, upon Lily's death, for Snape to tell Dumbledore: "I wish I were dead"-that possibly being a full renunciation of his Death Eater pact, if it existed as I've outlined.

On the other hand, and I'm not sure he ever says this in the books, but in DH2 LV tells Snape "Only I can live forever." This would indicate he wasn't planning on sharing immortality with anyone and once again was lying to ensure his own power.

Just some conjecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Harry's hopes for the police to come, to me, show how desperate and scared he is, but also how unnatural his magic is to him sometimes.
That was a rather odd, Muggle thought to have at that particular moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Very subtle foreshadowing with the true danger of Peter's silver hand when Voldemort says, "May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail."

More excellent foreshadowing on Voldemort's multiple Horcruxes with the statement, "...it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked."
Quite true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I enjoy Voldemort's sadistic humor with, "Well, one of them was already at hand, was it not, Wormtail? Flesh given by a servant…"
Okaaay . . .that might reveal a bit more about you than about LV's sense of humor. . . (just kidding!! - no need for the mods to get involved. . .)

Other:
LV doesn't mention the incident with Harry and the young Tom Riddle at this point. And they seem two very distinct beings. So if the CoS reincarnation had worked, would one LV eventually become obsessed with taking out the other?

Seems a horcrux could serve two purposes. One prevented the disembodied remnant of LV's soul from completely disintegrating or passing on to the afterlife. The other allowed complete reconstitution from a soul fragment. Which raises another question: why didn't the other horcruxes try to reanimate? Guess I'll go explore the horcrux thread.


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  #1456  
Old October 25th, 2011, 3:37 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
That has always puzzled me. He is so against Muggles and Muggle borns, why does he admit to it? It completely nullifies his theories about magical blood since "the most powerful wizard of all time" had a Muggle father.
I think it was a partial boast, telling Harry how he overcame the tainted Muggle blood to still become “the most powerful wizard of all time” and touted blood purity. But I also think he was inexplicably drawn to Harry and their shared characteristics. Just as the Tom Riddle in CoS notes the similarities they share, Voldemort saw baby Harry as the biggest threat because he was more similar to himself than Neville was. Thus, I think Voldemort had an uncontrollable fascination with Harry and their shared characteristics. But I also think that he saw no harm in telling Harry the truth when he was going to kill Harry in a matter of minutes anyway. No Death Eaters would have heard that conversation between Voldemort and Harry, so Voldemort did not have to worry about his reputation/blood purity being questioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
The term Death Eater has always intrigued me. "Eating Death" seems more synonymous with overcoming death-not necessarily causing death. It rather suggests that LV promised his followers, in some way, that by joining him they could become immortal (most religions promise this in some way or another.)
This is a very interesting perspective, and something I agree with. I think it is logical that Voldemort, who based his life on overcoming his own mortality, would tantalize followers with immortality. So not only would Voldemort promise a Wizarding revolution, sanctifying pure-blood, and empowering his followers, but I think he would also tempt them with the idea of conquering (i.e. eating) Death. Given the greed and ambition of most of his followers, I think immortality would be a very successful allure. But if this were the case, I also see Voldemort as someone who may promise looming immortality to his followers but never truly allowing it, as only he could be immortal (though it was in the DH Part 2 movie, not the book, I think Voldemort’s perspective is captured by the quote of “Only I can live forever.”).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
That was a rather odd, Muggle thought to have at that particular moment.
If it was coming from Ron, yes, I would find it odd. But given Harry’s wide ignorance of the Wizarding world and his upbringing in the Muggle one, I think it is a thought that highlights how inherent that Muggle upbringing is to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Okaaay . . .that might reveal a bit more about you than about LV's sense of humor. . . (just kidding!! - no need for the mods to get involved. . .)
Perhaps I should not mislead with the word “enjoy.” I appreciate the pun, rather than actually find humor in Voldemort’s statement!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
LV doesn't mention the incident with Harry and the young Tom Riddle at this point. And they seem two very distinct beings. So if the CoS reincarnation had worked, would one LV eventually become obsessed with taking out the other?
They were two distinct beings; the reborn Voldemort did not know that his 16-year-old memory was sentient again until he tortured the story of the diary/the Chamber out of Lucius. This is what JKR said about the two Voldemort’s joining:
Jkrowling.com, F.A.Q. In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?
I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.

I imagine that the two Voldemorts would have combined in some way. I do not mean a rejoining of the two soul pieces, but rather a combining of the two powers: the 16-year-old Tom Riddle and the reborn Voldemort. But I think JKR’s comment makes it clear that they would not be antagonistic, but rather come together in some way to fortify Voldemort’s strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Seems a horcrux could serve two purposes. One prevented the disembodied remnant of LV's soul from completely disintegrating or passing on to the afterlife. The other allowed complete reconstitution from a soul fragment. Which raises another question: why didn't the other horcruxes try to reanimate? Guess I'll go explore the horcrux thread.
The case of the diary Horcrux is unique among Voldemort’s Horcruxes because it was designed to reanimate, to a degree. That piece of soul was enabled to function and interact with wizards, and it did so through a mixture of memory and possession. But I do not think a Horcrux inherently allows the reconstitution of life, as I doubt the Tom Riddle from the diary, if successful in draining the life out of Ginny, would have been “reborn” as Voldemort was in GoF. Instead, I think he would remain more of a shadow like we see from Priori Incantatem or the Resurrection Stone, rather than a clone. Otherwise, a Horcrux is not only a protector against immortality but also a cloning device, and I do not think it works like that. I think the diary Riddle would have still been, ultimately, a Horcrux that was bound to the diary. So if the diary were destroyed, the shadow of Tom Riddle would be destroyed.

Meanwhile, I think Voldemort could be resurrected because the soul piece from which he was reborn was not a fragment bound in a Horcrux. It was the free-living soul piece that resided in his body (the last one to be destroyed, according to Dumbledore) that allowed him to regain his body. But I do not think other soul fragments had that capability because they were enslaved inside magical objects. And unlike the body, if that magical container was destroyed the soul fragment was destroyed as well. Thus, I think reconstitution of a body would only be possible with the soul fragment that was torn from the original body, and not from soul fragments contained within a Horcrux.

As you can notice from the title, we will be tackling 4 chapters this "week" to finish up GoF. After we exhaust discussion on the individual chapters we will spend around a week discussing the book as a whole and then progress to OotP.


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  #1457  
Old October 25th, 2011, 6:17 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The case of the diary Horcrux is unique among Voldemort’s Horcruxes because it was designed to reanimate, to a degree. That piece of soul was enabled to function and interact with wizards, and it did so through a mixture of memory and possession. But I do not think a Horcrux inherently allows the reconstitution of life, as I doubt the Tom Riddle from the diary, if successful in draining the life out of Ginny, would have been “reborn” as Voldemort was in GoF. Instead, I think he would remain more of a shadow like we see from Priori Incantatem or the Resurrection Stone, rather than a clone. Otherwise, a Horcrux is not only a protector against immortality but also a cloning device, and I do not think it works like that. I think the diary Riddle would have still been, ultimately, a Horcrux that was bound to the diary. So if the diary were destroyed, the shadow of Tom Riddle would be destroyed.

Meanwhile, I think Voldemort could be resurrected because the soul piece from which he was reborn was not a fragment bound in a Horcrux. It was the free-living soul piece that resided in his body (the last one to be destroyed, according to Dumbledore) that allowed him to regain his body. But I do not think other soul fragments had that capability because they were enslaved inside magical objects. And unlike the body, if that magical container was destroyed the soul fragment was destroyed as well. Thus, I think reconstitution of a body would only be possible with the soul fragment that was torn from the original body, and not from soul fragments contained within a Horcrux.
The main difference between the diary and the other horcruxes was that it contained a memory of young Tom which could be strengthened by the souls of others. Even if Tom had been substantial enough to get out of the Chamber he would have still been tied to the diary as his soul had been put there in the horcrux spell. So anyone destroying the diary would still have destroyed Tom.

No other horcrux had an image of Voldemort in it so even if the locket had taken over the minds of Ron or Harry, it wouldn't have been able to become another Voldemort. As you say, only the original soul piece could do that, which is what happened in the graveyard.

Voldemort said to his DEs, "One or more of my experiments had worked". Do you suppose this means he had tried methods other than horcruxes to conquer death, or that more than one of his horcruxes was functioning properly? You can't test a horcrux without dying, so maybe he hadn't been really sure till he 'died' in Godric's Hollow.


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  #1458  
Old October 25th, 2011, 7:30 pm
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
The main difference between the diary and the other horcruxes was that it contained a memory of young Tom which could be strengthened by the souls of others. Even if Tom had been substantial enough to get out of the Chamber he would have still been tied to the diary as his soul had been put there in the horcrux spell. So anyone destroying the diary would still have destroyed Tom.
I agree. Voldemort designed the diary Horcrux to be used as a weapon as much as a protection. Thus, I do not think any of the other Horcruxes were imbued with as much essence as was the diary. I think the magic of the diary in itself shows this: the other Horcruxes seemed relatively benign with some potential protective curses on/surrounding them. Meanwhile, the diary acted as both a Horcrux and a Pensieve (in many ways). As such, it is logical that the diary was able to gain more sentience than any of the other Horcruxes, but it was still, ultimately, limited in that it was a Horcrux. If one destroys the magical container of the Horcrux, the soul fragment is destroyed - and the diary shows it was no exception, despite its added magic of memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
Voldemort said to his DEs, "One or more of my experiments had worked". Do you suppose this means he had tried methods other than horcruxes to conquer death, or that more than one of his horcruxes was functioning properly? You can't test a horcrux without dying, so maybe he hadn't been really sure till he 'died' in Godric's Hollow.
This is an interesting investigation, and I think it necessary to reference the surrounding passage:
GoF, The Death Eaters"What I was, even I do not know… I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked… for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it. Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive, and without the means to help myself…"

The way I interpret this is that his "experiments" are his Horcruxes. They are not his attempts/experiments he underwent when trying to make Horcruxes/seek a way to immortality, but they were his actual Horcruxes - in the plural. "One or more of my experiments had worked." That says, to me, "one or more of my Horcruxes had worked." He is saying that at least one of his Horcruxes had done its job, tethering him to life. I do not think he knows if the collected power of 5 Horcruxes was what kept him alive, or if only one of the Horcruxes functioned at a time; but what he did gather is that a single Horcrux's utility was not nullified by having others. Thus, I think Voldemort realized that his idea of multiple Horcruxes worked.

Chapter 34: Priori Incatatem

I find it interesting that Voldemort was so patient when dueling Harry, rather than simply abolishing the threat that had perturbed him for so long. In The Prince’s Tale Dumbledore tells Snape that Bellatrix likes to play with her food: a trait she seems to have learned from Voldemort along with Dark magic.

I like how the phoenix song during Priori Incantatem follows what Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them says about phoenixes. That is, it ignites courage in the good and strikes fear in the evil. And the reactions of Harry and Voldemort in this scene solidify that.

Do you think the phoenix song was caused by the phoenix feather cores? Do you think a different sound/song would have come if the shared core was, for instance, unicorn hair?

It took me a couple of re-reads to realize that the “echoing screams of pain” emitted from Voldemort’s wand were the shadows of the Cruciatus Curses he cast on Harry.

The shadows of Voldemort’s latest victims were more or less sentient, being omniscient and able to interact with Harry. Do you think the shadows of spells created by the spell Prior Incantato (e.g. the spell Amos Diggory used on Harry’s wand to reveal the shadow of the Dark Mark) would also have that sentience, or was this an anomaly caused by Priori Incantatem, the reverse spell effect?

Frank Bryce’s shadow seemed amazingly calm at seeing that true wizards existed; but who knows how much the shadow learned/experienced after Frank’s death?

What do you think the shadows were hissing towards Voldemort?

I am curious how many of you first read GoF with the original mistake of James appearing from the wand before Lily? If so, when did you realize that this was a mistake in the chronology?

Chapter 35: Veritaserum

Do you think it was Dumbledore who roughly seized Harry and turned him over? If so, why would Dumbledore handle Harry so roughly?

I think JKR masterfully described the chaos, drama, and intensity surrounding Harry’s return – amazingly tragic and engaging.

We get the first indication of “Moody’s” falsity when he refers to Voldemort as “the Dark Lord.” And even more surprising for a Death Eater, he actually says “Voldemort” when interrogating Harry. Why do you think that is?

Why do you think Barty Crouch Jr. lost his composure/sensibility when Harry returned, so much that he jeopardized his ideal position as a spy. How would things have changed if Crouch Jr. had been more patient and not kidnapped Harry away from Dumbledore?

Was Crouch Jr. smart in relying on Harry asking Neville for help? Personally, I thought Harry was stretching his luck by confiding in Hermione, Ron, and Sirius. Should Crouch Jr. not have realized that the champions were supposed to be proud and independent with the clues?

I find it interesting that Harry could not see shapes in the Foe-Glass when he first looked into it, but then Snape observes his own reflection in it later. Does the Foe-Glass only truly register enemies when they are directly confronting that person (for instance, as Moody said earlier, he is only in danger when he sees the whites of their eyes)?

Would Voldemort have rewarded Crouch Jr. for killing Harry, or was Voldemort so intent on killing Harry himself that he would have been infuriated by Crouch’s presumption?

I also find it interesting that Crouch Jr. coveted being “closer than a son” to Voldemort. Does this show us that he fled to Voldemort’s service to be wanted, needed, or useful to a “father figure” – something he did not have in his own home with his father?

Do you find it believable that Crouch Jr. had fooled Dumbledore through the third task, and only by Moody taking Harry after Harry returned did Dumbledore develop not just a suspicion but a certainty of an imposter?

This question was somewhat recently asked on another thread, but I will bring it up here. Why do you think Dumbledore knew to summon Winky for the interrogation of “Moody”, thus indicating that Dumbledore expected “Moody” to be Crouch Jr.?

Does anyone else want a trunk like Moody’s?

Do you think the 7th chamber of Moody’s trunk was always that pit/underground room, or did Crouch Jr. somehow alter it to allow him to bring the real Moody into Hogwarts?

I am always amazed that Mrs. Crouch had the physical ability to drink Polyjuice Potion within one hour of her death. I also find it interesting that, upon death, she apparently did not transform back into herself – unless, of course, it was a supposition of Crouch’s that she was buried with his appearance.

Was Crouch Sr. smart to imprison his son in such a way, or do you agree with Mrs. Crouch that he should have been given more freedom?

Do you think Dumbledore ever learned more about the Marauder’s Map than what Crouch Jr. mentioned?


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Last edited by MrSleepyHead; October 25th, 2011 at 10:00 pm.
  #1459  
Old October 26th, 2011, 4:37 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Chapter 34: Priori Incatatem

I like how the phoenix song during Priori Incantatem follows what Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them says about phoenixes. That is, it ignites courage in the good and strikes fear in the evil. And the reactions of Harry and Voldemort in this scene solidify that.
Do you think the phoenix song was caused by the phoenix feather cores? Do you think a different sound/song would have come if the shared core was, for instance, unicorn hair?
I do believe that the phoenix core had something to do with the wand cores. I'd like to think that Harry also heard this from his connection with Dumbledore through Fawkes, like in Chamber of Secrets, but I may be thinking too far into things.

It took me a couple of re-reads to realize that the “echoing screams of pain” emitted from Voldemort’s wand were the shadows of the Cruciatus Curses he cast on Harry.
I caught this later on as well.

The shadows of Voldemort’s latest victims were more or less sentient, being omniscient and able to interact with Harry. Do you think the shadows of spells created by the spell Prior Incantato (e.g. the spell Amos Diggory used on Harry’s wand to reveal the shadow of the Dark Mark) would also have that sentience, or was this an anomaly caused by Priori Incantatem, the reverse spell effect?
I think it's more the later.

Frank Bryce’s shadow seemed amazingly calm at seeing that true wizards existed; but who knows how much the shadow learned/experienced after Frank’s death?
I've not thought about this until now.

What do you think the shadows were hissing towards Voldemort?
I've always wondered about this, but I'm not entirely sure. Was Voldemort frightened at the mere sight of his victims or what they were hissing at him?

I am curious how many of you first read GoF with the original mistake of James appearing from the wand before Lily? If so, when did you realize that this was a mistake in the chronology?
I was one who read the mistake and always thought that's how it came about. It was until someone on here mentioned that there had been a correction in the later editions of GoF.

Chapter 35: Veritaserum

I think JKR masterfully described the chaos, drama, and intensity surrounding Harry’s return – amazingly tragic and engaging.


Do you find it believable that Crouch Jr. had fooled Dumbledore through the third task, and only by Moody taking Harry after Harry returned did Dumbledore develop not just a suspicion but a certainty of an imposter?
I'm not entirely sure about this one, however, I didn't ever really think that he was completely fooled even from the begining.

This question was somewhat recently asked on another thread, but I will bring it up here. Why do you think Dumbledore knew to summon Winky for the interrogation of “Moody”, thus indicating that Dumbledore expected “Moody” to be Crouch Jr.?
He probably had his suspicions from when Harry claimed to have seen Crouch Sr. in the Forbiddden Forest.

Does anyone else want a trunk like Moody’s?
Yeah definitely, then I'd have more space to store my numerous copies of Potter books.

Do you think the 7th chamber of Moody’s trunk was always that pit/underground room, or did Crouch Jr. somehow alter it to allow him to bring the real Moody into Hogwarts?
I'd like to think that's how the trunk came, considering there seemed to be an amount of Moody's actual personal belongings residing inside.

I am always amazed that Mrs. Crouch had the physical ability to drink Polyjuice Potion within one hour of her death. I also find it interesting that, upon death, she apparently did not transform back into herself – unless, of course, it was a supposition of Crouch’s that she was buried with his appearance.
I've thought about this quite frequently as well.

Was Crouch Sr. smart to imprison his son in such a way, or do you agree with Mrs. Crouch that he should have been given more freedom?
I'd have to agree with Crouch Sr on this one since we see how he broke away from Winky at the World Cup.

Do you think Dumbledore ever learned more about the Marauder’s Map than what Crouch Jr. mentioned?
I don't believe so.


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  #1460  
Old October 26th, 2011, 9:40 am
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Re: Read-a-Thon: GoF, Ch. 34-END

Quote:
I find it interesting that Voldemort was so patient when dueling Harry, rather than simply abolishing the threat that had perturbed him for so long.
Voldemort was very patient, indeed. Even waiting a year to capture Harry shows that.

Quote:
Do you think the phoenix song was caused by the phoenix feather cores? Do you think a different sound/song would have come if the shared core was, for instance, unicorn hair?
I never thought of it like that, but it makes sense to me. I was thinking it might have something to do Fawkes, but it never occurred to me that it was because of the cores. I'm trying to imagine that scene with dragon song now though.

Quote:
It took me a couple of re-reads to realize that the “echoing screams of pain” emitted from Voldemort’s wand were the shadows of the Cruciatus Curses he cast on Harry.
Took me a while to catch on to that too.

Quote:
The shadows of Voldemort’s latest victims were more or less sentient, being omniscient and able to interact with Harry. Do you think the shadows of spells created by the spell Prior Incantato (e.g. the spell Amos Diggory used on Harry’s wand to reveal the shadow of the Dark Mark) would also have that sentience, or was this an anomaly caused by Priori Incantatem, the reverse spell effect?
I think 'Priori Incantato' is the incantation that can be used on any wand to produce the Priori Incantatem effect. I don't think that it is limited to brother wands, but any wand is capable of forcing a wand to regenerate its last spells. I don't know what sentient means (*googles*, but I think the effect would be the same/very similar.

Quote:
What do you think the shadows were hissing towards Voldemort?
I would guess general insults and threats mainly. Voldemort also feared death, so I think just the sight of them shocked/intimidated him.

Quote:
I am curious how many of you first read GoF with the original mistake of James appearing from the wand before Lily? If so, when did you realize that this was a mistake in the chronology?
I can't remember how I first read it, but I don't think I'd have read it soon enough to read it that way. I do have the Manager/Assistant mistake in my copy of PoA though.

Chapter 35: Veritaserum

Quote:
Why do you think Barty Crouch Jr. lost his composure/sensibility when Harry returned, so much that he jeopardized his ideal position as a spy. How would things have changed if Crouch Jr. had been more patient and not kidnapped Harry away from Dumbledore?
Quote:
Was Crouch Jr. smart in relying on Harry asking Neville for help? Personally, I thought Harry was stretching his luck by confiding in Hermione, Ron, and Sirius. Should Crouch Jr. not have realized that the champions were supposed to be proud and independent with the clues?
I think he underestimated Harry. He probably thought about how he would have reacted if someone registered him for the TWT at 14, and expected Harry to do the same. I don't think he realised just how independent Harry was.

Quote:
I find it interesting that Harry could not see shapes in the Foe-Glass when he first looked into it, but then Snape observes his own reflection in it later. Does the Foe-Glass only truly register enemies when they are directly confronting that person (for instance, as Moody said earlier, he is only in danger when he sees the whites of their eyes)?
I think Snape could only see himself in the mirror because he was already in it. He had appeared as an enemy to Moody/Crouch Junior:

[fieldset=Veritaserum, pg 589 (UK ed.)]Moody was thrown backwards onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass. He looked around and saw the three of them standing in the doorway, Dumbledore in front, his wand outstretched.[fieldset]

The shapes would have warned Moody that danger was coming and he would have prepared for it, had he been paying attention to it. I think it might be a limitation of the Foe-Glass as to how specific the warning can be though. IMO, Harry wouldn't be able to see himself because its not an ordinary mirror and he wasn't really a treat to Moody.

Quote:
Would Voldemort have rewarded Crouch Jr. for killing Harry, or was Voldemort so intent on killing Harry himself that he would have been infuriated by Crouch’s presumption?
I think he'd be furious he didn't get to do it himself at first, but I think he'd have calmed down eventually and realised he was glad Harry was dead. Then he could proceed with his plans of taking over the wizarding world, in the knowledge that his one threat was gone.

Quote:
I also find it interesting that Crouch Jr. coveted being “closer than a son” to Voldemort. Does this show us that he fled to Voldemort’s service to be wanted, needed, or useful to a “father figure” – something he did not have in his own home with his father?
Excellent point. That could well explain why Crouch Junior joined the DEs in the first place.

Quote:
Does anyone else want a trunk like Moody’s?
It would come in very handy for storing all the junk I've collected over the years but don't want to get rid off. I'd probably lose the keys though.

Quote:
Was Crouch Sr. smart to imprison his son in such a way, or do you agree with Mrs. Crouch that he should have been given more freedom?
I'm actually torn about that. The way he was imprisoned was horrible, but I'm not sure Crouch Sr had a choice really. He had to try and prevent him from escaping and seeking out Voldemort. Crouch Sr probably would never had thought that Voldemort would seek out Jr (he thought he was dead) and, without Pettigrew and Bertha Jorkins, he probably never would have. I think it was probably the best solution Sr could come up with at the time.

Quote:
Do you think Dumbledore ever learned more about the Marauder’s Map than what Crouch Jr. mentioned?
I don't know, maybe? I wouldn't be surprised if Sirius or Lupin told him about it at some stage, but I think Dumbledore had more important things to worry about after that conversation and might just have forgot about it/thought it irrelevant...


 
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