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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #321  
Old March 17th, 2010, 12:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Why should we think that Lily made a mature choice in choosing James and Sirius as friends over Snape when they were obviously neither mature themselves nor actually nicer to anyone? (Well, they were nicer to her - a pretty girl in their own house).
Why would we think that, if it never happened? Lily was not friends with James or Sirius at the time of SWM, nor was she right afterwards. She did not choose James and Sirius over Severus. A year later, when Lily is friends with them, it is not "obvious" that they are not mature or nice, because it is a year later, not still that moment on the playground. We know James and Sirius went on to join the Order and fight to protect others, and Severus went on to join the Death Eaters and fight to harm others, so I think I can detect a difference in the respective paths they all chose in regards to maturity and niceness. If I assume that they are changing gradually towards their respective goals, I can only conclude that it is obvious to me that James and Sirius were more mature by the time Lily was friends with them. But I also think that Severus was well out of the friends window by that point. I don't see that it was ever Lily thinking she had to choose between them because her life had to be all about one boy or the other. In my opinion it was Lily choosing to be Lily and stand up for Lily and Lily's ideals. In my opinion, those ideals included a belief that disdain for Muggleborns was wrong, and Voldemort and his Death Eaters were destructive forces that needed to be stopped.

Quote:
Why is it immature of Snape to want his best friend to forgive him when he made a huge mistake?
In my opinion, it is because Severus doesn't understand the mistake that needs forgiving. It seems to me that he is sorry he upset Lily, but he doesn't get everything that she finds upsetting. Upsetting Lily seems to strike Severus as a bad thing, but disdaining Muggleborns in general, targetting them in general, and wanting to join an organization that seeks to oppress, torture, and murder in the name of blood purity doesn't seem to strike Severus as any kind of "mistake". I think it is his idea that Lily would exist in this little bubble, and not care about anything outside of it, that is immature. He puts "filthy little Mudblood" in the bubble with her and wants to take it back as the single lone mistake he has made, but Lily doesn't really live in a little bubble and she's now looking at the bigger picture, which in my view Severus fails to understand.



Last edited by OldMotherCrow; March 17th, 2010 at 12:26 pm.
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  #322  
Old March 17th, 2010, 8:12 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Why should we think that Lily made a mature choice in choosing James and Sirius as friends over Snape when they were obviously neither mature themselves nor actually nicer to anyone?
Where in the text does it indicate that Lily chose James and Sirius over Snape? Canon shows why Lily breaks away from Snape, and it was because of Snape's own actions.

Quote:
especially since he has been watching the whole Ron/Hermione drama-rama unfold over years and their reunion in DH. How many times did they break up and forgive each other?
Ron never called Hermione a racial slur and/or aligned himself with racists who hated people like her. That's the difference. If Snape's actions and choices are not taken into account, then of course that loses Lily's reasoning for her actions, making her look like she's being too mean and unreasonable. But I feel you'd have to deny canon in order to get to that point.


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Last edited by RavenStar83; March 17th, 2010 at 9:27 pm.
  #323  
Old March 17th, 2010, 10:43 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Where in the text does it indicate that Lily chose James and Sirius over Snape? Canon shows why Lily breaks away from Snape, and it was because of Snape's own actions.
They talk about James and Sirius and Lupin every time they have a conversation. Lily and Snape are not talking to each other in a vacuum. She defends her own House mates even though she earlier saw them attacking Snape - that's a choice, too, in my opinion. Also she is probably a prefect so yes, I hold her to a higher standard. I guess that's a mistake on my part.

JMO


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Last edited by silver ink pot; March 18th, 2010 at 6:31 pm.
  #324  
Old March 17th, 2010, 11:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
They talk about James and Sirius and Lupin every time they have a conversation. Lily and Snape are not talking to each other in a vacuum. She defends her own House mates even though she earlier saw them attacking Snape - that's a choice, too, in my opinion.
We have one conversation between Snape and Lily where Snape brings up the Marauders. It's the memory before SWM. And where is she defending her housemates after the Mauraders attacked Snape? What conversation are we referring to?

As I said, where in text does it indicate Lily left Snape for the Mauraders? From what I read fromthe text itself, we're shown her reasons why she ends the friendship, and it was Snape's actions alone.

Quote:
Also she is a prefect so yes, I hold her to a higher standard. I guess that's a mistake on my part.
By any chance is this referencing to something I should know about?


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Last edited by RavenStar83; March 17th, 2010 at 11:25 pm.
  #325  
Old March 18th, 2010, 2:00 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Also she is a prefect so yes, I hold her to a higher standard. I guess that's a mistake on my part.
Lily is not a Prefect. Just sayin'.


  #326  
Old March 18th, 2010, 2:11 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
She defends her own House mates even though she earlier saw them attacking Snape - that's a choice, too, in my opinion.
I don't recall her defending the Marauders. During SWM, Lily defends Snape and tells them to stop. The aftermath of the incident was Snape going to apologize and Lily telling him that she's made excuses for him for long enough and that she doesn't want to keep going like that.

If you're referring to the Pensieve scene before SWM, she calls James an arrogant toerag, but she doesn't praise him in any way. The point she was trying to communicate was that Avery and Mulciber were evil, practicing Dark Magic and all.


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  #327  
Old March 18th, 2010, 2:35 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Lily is not a Prefect. Just sayin'.
Actually - Lily is 'most likely' a prefect. We do not get the info straight out for one way or another - however it is very unusual for the Head Boy or Girl to have not come from the prefects. The fact that James is Head Boy (without having been a prefect) does not mean that Lily got her position in such an unusual way as well. For BOTH of them to have received the honor without the normal path would have been seen as doubly strange. Therefore, odds are that at least ONE of them was a prefect. Not solid canon, but more likely.


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  #328  
Old March 18th, 2010, 2:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Actually - Lily is 'most likely' a prefect. We do not get the info straight out for one way or another - however it is very unusual for the Head Boy or Girl to have not come from the prefects. The fact that James is Head Boy (without having been a prefect) does not mean that Lily got her position in such an unusual way as well. For BOTH of them to have received the honor without the normal path would have been seen as doubly strange. Therefore, odds are that at least ONE of them was a prefect. Not solid canon, but more likely.
We see Lily in fifth year, and no mention is made of her having the badge, and no mention is made of her being a Prefect, nor do we see her take any action as a Prefect. She is not a Prefect within the story. We don't get her 6th and 7th year story, so we never learn why she is Head Girl in the future. Appearantly not because she was Prefect (unless she replaced someone as Prefect in the 6th year- if the first Wizarding War was anything like Hogwarts in Harry's 6th year, people were being disappeared and murdered and students were being pulled out of school-- so it's possible she was needed to step in to fill a vacancy. But really, unless JK Rowling chooses to address this, there are many possibilities as to why she was Head Girl and no way of knowing-- other than knowing she was not shown to be a 5th year Prefect).



Last edited by OldMotherCrow; March 18th, 2010 at 2:55 pm.
  #329  
Old March 18th, 2010, 6:11 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by CurseCruciatus View Post
I don't recall her defending the Marauders.
I recall something where Lily said , "It's not dark magic" when Snape tries to turn the criticism back onto "Potter and his gang" 's activities. The reading I had was that she was making a comparative statement and viewing James Potter as a prat but an essentially harmless prat who was not into "dark" magic. In that sense she was mitigating the actions of the Marauders.

This begs the question again what exactly is "dark" magic as understood by these two characters? Clearly Snape seems to think Potter capable of something akin to dark magic- and perhaps in relation to Lupin's lycanthropy. Lily does not. But she also doesn't believe Lupin to be a werewolf at this point in time. Both of the perceptions are colored by their own experience. It's understandable and complex. There is no objective source here.


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  #330  
Old March 18th, 2010, 6:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I recall something where Lily said , "It's not dark magic" when Snape tries to turn the criticism back onto "Potter and his gang" 's activities
Here you go...

The Prince's Tale, DH“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.” The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
“They don’t use Dark Magic, though.” She dropped her voice.


She wasn't exactly defending the Marauders in the true sense, as she was merely trying to make the point that Snape's friends, are like the epitome of evil and she could only justify this by comparing them with lesser evil.

Snape on the other hand well isn't an objective observer to take his word on it, as he has three reasons to be partial towards the marauders. One his constant rivalry with them. Two his friends are on the stand, and third being Dark Magic which he well wanted to pursue.


  #331  
Old March 18th, 2010, 6:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Why do you think did this encounter go 'wrong'?
IMO, it was because of his appearance and lack of social skills. He looked silly in the overly large coat, and, by admitting that he'd been watching them other times made them feel uncomfortable. It was not a very good first impression.

How do you interpret Lily's behaviour here?
Since she seemed the more adventuresome of the two, she stood her ground. She didn't seem to grasp the reference to her being a witch and was insulted, so, she went on the defensive. Also, she seemed to become more wary when she learned Severus had been watching her before.

Why does Lily glare at Snape?
Again, his manner was offputting and he'd insulted her sister.

Has this scene changed your opinion of Lily and Snape's friendship?
No. I think their friendship developed because Lily saw in him someone who knew about the WW, and, also, she may have felt sorry for him and (since we're told she kind of took care of strays, as per Lupin's remarks), she may have just wanted to reach out to him.




Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

IMO, he was reluctant because of his appearance and lack of social skills. I think he felt he could approach her because they had magic in common, but, he was still concerned about being rejected. I don't think he would have approached her if she had not been magical -- he told Petunia pretty much that he would not waste his time spying on a Muggle.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

No. I think it was only because of that common bond of magic that they became "friends." I think she would have avoided him otherwise.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

No, I don't. Liliy was attractive, loved and well cared for, her family was at least middle-class, she seemed well rounded socially. Snape was almost the exact opposite. But, he brought the knowledge of magic to the friendship, which, IMO, Lily was as anxious for as he was for affection. But, I don't think Lily ever felt Snape was her equal socially, only that he had the advantage of knowing about magic.

I've often wondered if Lily's extreme talent in Potions might have come from some help from the Half-blood Prince. Snape was very talented in Potions, as we know from his notes. But, we didn't hear much from Slughorn about Snape's abilities, just Lily's. I've often wondered why.


4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Once Sev and Lily were sorted into separate Houses, I think the "friendship" was condemned from there. Even though they spent time together at school,
I've never been sure about the "best friend" thing. That insinuates "equals," and, as I said before, I don't think Lily thought of Snape as an equal. I think he was just someone she needed at the time to help her understand her magical abilities and to help her keep from feeling like the "freak" that Petunia kept calling her.

We don't see enough about what went on day-to-day as far as them visiting each other's homes, having anything in common besides magic. Nothing about celebrating events together, etc. Just magic.

The Fifth Year at Hogwarts seems to be a turning point for most of the students. They've become teenagers and their "interests" are changing, as we see with Harry and Cho startng with Year Four and then becoming more involved in Year Five. They've learned a good bit of magic; they've become closer to their own House mates and learned prejudices about other Houses. Also, they may taking many separate classes and not see each other much. They eat and spend all but a little spare time with their own House members. They would have had to both have worked very hard to maintain their friendship, and, I'm not sure how much time and/or effort either of them were able to put into "maintenance."

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I think they would have remained friends, but, there would have come a time when it would have ended because, unlike Harry and Hermoine's friendship for example, Snape was in love with Lily, and, I don't think she was in love with him. Eventually, it would have blown up, one way or the other. The difference in the Houses was just the catalist that helped to bring about the end.

Of course, we know that Snape became involved with the DE's in Slytherin and Lily became more set against them and Snape as well because of things said about them in Gryffindor.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

Both of the above. I also think that Snape realized that James Potter was interested in Lily and was used to getting what he wanted. Snape never seemed to completely understand Lily (another thing that doesn't support the "best friends" thing). I think he was getting frustrated and saw that the end of the friendship was coming and didn't know what to do about it. Since he was so good at potions, I've always wondered why he didn't slip Lily a mild love potion. Guess that shows he did have honor.


7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Snape apologized, but, it was too little too late. I think Lily was losing interest in him by then, and moving away from him. I think the "Mudblood" incident gave her the reason she was looking for to end the friendship, such as it was at that time. I think Snape was totall dependant on her for real affection, and, I think that affection, for whatever reasons, was waning. I don't think Lily was mean, she was just a young woman who was at a stage in her life where she was looking at her future and, Snape didn't fit into it.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I think they would have eventually gone their separate ways. Like I said, I think Snape was in love with Lily, but, she wasn't in love with him. I don't think they would have ever become romantically involved nor do I think their friendship would have gone on once Lily married and had her own family, even if there had not been a war or a Voldemort.


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  #332  
Old March 18th, 2010, 7:00 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I'm sorry, I changed my post to read that Lily was probably a prefect.

I think this is one of those implied things in the text that are not spelled out for us, such as Lily's patronus being a silver doe, which Harry seems to know all about at the end of the book but which we are never shown.

It's true that no one mentions Lily being a Prefect to Harry in OotP, but only because they are trying to make him feel better by pointing out that James wasn't one. It never comes up because Harry didn't identify with his mother at that time, and expresses no curiousity about her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurseCruciatus
I don't recall her defending the Marauders.
I recall something where Lily said , "It's not dark magic" when Snape tries to turn the criticism back onto "Potter and his gang" 's activities. The reading I had was that she was making a comparative statement and viewing James Potter as a prat but an essentially harmless prat who was not into "dark" magic. In that sense she was mitigating the actions of the Marauders.

This begs the question again what exactly is "dark" magic as understood by these two characters? Clearly Snape seems to think Potter capable of something akin to dark magic- and perhaps in relation to Lupin's lycanthropy. Lily does not. But she also doesn't believe Lupin to be a werewolf at this point in time. Both of the perceptions are colored by their own experience. It's understandable and complex. There is no objective source here.
Here's the quote ~ Lily tells Snape he should be grateful to James about saving his life:

“It was Dark Magic, and if you think that’s funny—”
“What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?” demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.
“What’s Potter got to do with anything?” said Lily.
“They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?”
“He’s ill,” said Lily. “They say he’s ill—”
“Every month at the full moon?” said Snape. . . .

“They don’t use Dark Magic, though.” She dropped her voice. “And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there—”


There's a great deal of irony there - Lily believes that there's something dark and dreadful under the Whomping Willow and Snape should be grateful to James for saving him from it, but she refuses to believe that her friend Lupin could turn into a dark creature like a werewolf.

Lily probably also didn't know about the Invisibility Cloak and the Marauder's Map, and while being an unregistered Animagi isn't "dark," it is definitely illegal.

So given her lack of knowledge about the Marauders, and the fact that she won't believe anything Snape tells her, it almost makes sense that she views her own housemates through rose-tinted glasses, in my opinion.


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  #333  
Old March 18th, 2010, 7:09 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
But really, unless JK Rowling chooses to address this, there are many possibilities as to why she was Head Girl and no way of knowing-- other than knowing she was not shown to be a 5th year Prefect).
That her prefect status was not mentioned, does not mean Lily was not a prefect in fifth year. I consider it highly likely she was, based on the evidence we have, to wit, that she was Head Girl later, that she was not a Quidditch captain (if she and James had played together on the team, I would consider it inconceivable no one mentioned this), that she was popular, and that she was an academic high achiever.

After all, in OotP, was Lupin's pin mentioned? We certainly have no evidence he ever acted as a Prefect. Even though we are told he was one.

Lily might even have considered herself to be acting as a prefect in the Worst Memory scene, before she lost her temper.


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  #334  
Old March 18th, 2010, 7:39 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Absolutely. I always felt Lily was a bit hypocritical when she broke off her friendship because Snape called her a Mudblood, when she knew he was calling every muggleborn by that name.
I would respectfully disagree on this. I feel Lily may well have been giving her long-term friend the benefit of the doubt, by extending more of a hand of loyality and trust to him, than the other friends negative comments whom she was excusing his behaviour too. If they had any early objections to him, they might have been along the lines of him looking weird, a loner, or simply being Slytherin, the latter we see from Harry's generation how at odds the Houses are. Lily accepts him despite those things so she may have dismissed any comments/objections, even as they grew and doubt started to creep in. It wasn't until directly faced with being called a Mudblood herself, it hit her very hard what her friend was becoming and the change he was undergoing. Imo.



Last edited by Annielogic; March 18th, 2010 at 8:46 pm. Reason: typo
  #335  
Old March 18th, 2010, 7:46 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I'm sorry, I changed my post to read that Lily was probably a prefect.
Okay

Quote:
I think this is one of those implied things in the text that are not spelled out for us, such as Lily's patronus being a silver doe, which Harry seems to know all about at the end of the book but which we are never shown.

It's true that no one mentions Lily being a Prefect to Harry in OotP, but only because they are trying to make him feel better by pointing out that James wasn't one. It never comes up because Harry didn't identify with his mother at that time, and expresses no curiousity about her.
Well, Harry states (kind of out of the blue) that Lily's Patronus was a doe. I'll except that even on that thin bit of evidence, because it's there and it seems important to the story. No one ever states that Lily was a Prefect. It is an assumption that she was a Prefect and no one bothers to mention it, or note a badge on her robes, because they had other priorities. Her being a Prefect simply wasn't in the story in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer
That her prefect status was not mentioned, does not mean Lily was not a prefect in fifth year. I consider it highly likely she was, based on the evidence we have, to wit, that she was Head Girl later, that she was not a Quidditch captain (if she and James had played together on the team, I would consider it inconceivable no one mentioned this), that she was popular, and that she was an academic high achiever.
But it is still not said that she is a Prefect. It needs to be added to the story by us the readers in order to make her a Prefect. In order to say she is not a Prefect we don't have to subtract anything from the story. I don't want to start assigning authorities and powers to the characters when it is not indicated that they have them. I could do it just as easily with any other character, too, but I'd rather stick to the text.

Quote:
After all, in OotP, was Lupin's pin mentioned? We certainly have no evidence he ever acted as a Prefect. Even though we are told he was one.
We are told Lupin is a Prefect.

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Lily might even have considered herself to be acting as a prefect in the Worst Memory scene, before she lost her temper.
Or something else. First she has to be a Prefect. If she were a Prefect she might be thinking Prefect-y things. But first she has to be a Prefect.



Last edited by OldMotherCrow; March 18th, 2010 at 8:07 pm. Reason: forgot quote attribution!
  #336  
Old March 18th, 2010, 8:04 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Lily might even have considered herself to be acting as a prefect in the Worst Memory scene, before she lost her temper.
That could be possible, because by the looks of it, Snape and Lily didn't seem to be at very good terms during the scene....

SWM, Ootp“There you go,” he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, “you’re lucky Evans was here, Snivellus —”
I don’t need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!”
Lily blinked. “Fine,” she said coolly. “I won’t bother in future. And I’d wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus.”


Now, she was clearly on his side in the scene until this happens. Now why would Snape say that...because he was under lot of stress...true he was, but when you are in a situation like Snape, you don't end up lashing out your only ally. The problem between the two had been going on for some time and by the looks of it, they were at a mutual disagreement. So when Lily must have decided to step it, I don't think it was solely because Severus was his friend, but because she felt it was a part of her job?


  #337  
Old March 18th, 2010, 9:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I've often wondered if Lily's extreme talent in Potions might have come from some help from the Half-blood Prince. Snape was very talented in Potions, as we know from his notes. But, we didn't hear much from Slughorn about Snape's abilities, just Lily's. I've often wondered why.
Or perhaps they were her own skills, her own hard work.

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Once Sev and Lily were sorted into separate Houses, I think the "friendship" was condemned from there. Even though they spent time together at school,
I've never been sure about the "best friend" thing. That insinuates "equals," and, as I said before, I don't think Lily thought of Snape as an equal. I think he was just someone she needed at the time to help her understand her magical abilities and to help her keep from feeling like the "freak" that Petunia kept calling her.
Teenage Snape considered Lily a Mudblood - this shows he was the one who didn't see her as an equal. What evidence is there that Lily didn't consider Severus an equal?

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We don't see enough about what went on day-to-day as far as them visiting each other's homes, having anything in common besides magic. Nothing about celebrating events together, etc. Just magic.
That wouldn't be enough to maintain a friendship for the first five years of Hogwarts when they both had other magical friends, and they both had other friends long before fifth year -Lily's who didn't see why she made excuses for him, Snape's who considered Lily and those like her to be scum. The only memories we see are those relevant to the development and end of their friendship.


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I think they would have remained friends, but, there would have come a time when it would have ended because, unlike Harry and Hermoine's friendship for example, Snape was in love with Lily, and, I don't think she was in love with him. Eventually, it would have blown up, one way or the other. The difference in the Houses was just the catalist that helped to bring about the end.
Therein lies part of the problem -Lily wasn't in any way obliged to return Snape's feelings.

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Of course, we know that Snape became involved with the DE's in Slytherin and Lily became more set against them and Snape as well because of things said about them in Gryffindor.
Not to mention the things they did - the Dark Magic Mulciber used against Mary Macdonald and the final straw was Snape calling Lily a Mudblood - showing that he really did just consider her an exception to his prejudices, imo.

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Since he was so good at potions, I've always wondered why he didn't slip Lily a mild love potion. Guess that shows he did have honor.
That's not honour, that's just common decency, respecting someone's right to make their own decisions. IMO, feeding someone a love potion to gain their artificial affection is utterly despicable - it was completely wrong of Merope to give Riddle Sr. the love potion, it was utterly wrong of Romilda to try to slip love potion to Harry. Likewise if Snape had given Lily love potion.

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Snape apologized, but, it was too little too late. I think Lily was losing interest in him by then, and moving away from him. I think the "Mudblood" incident gave her the reason she was looking for to end the friendship, such as it was at that time. I think Snape was totall dependant on her for real affection, and, I think that affection, for whatever reasons, was waning. I don't think Lily was mean, she was just a young woman who was at a stage in her life where she was looking at her future and, Snape didn't fit into it.
What indication is there that Lily wanted to end the friendship? I don't think "Mudblood" was the perfect excuse Lily had been looking for, I think it was a terrible betrayal of a friend on Snape's part. And certainly, someone who shared the views of Death Eaters in relation to people like Lily and people like her parents had no place in the future of a young woman who had "chosen her path" -i.e. opposition to that kind of terrorism.


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  #338  
Old March 18th, 2010, 11:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Furry Dice

Or perhaps they were her own skills, her own hard work.
As I said, these are thoughts while reading and after completing reading the last two books. I didn't say tht it was or wasn't. Just wondered, since they were best friends and studied together a lot, if Snape had helped Lily. Who knows? Maybe it was the other way around.



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Teenage Snape considered Lily a Mudblood - this shows he was the one who didn't see her as an equal. What evidence is there that Lily didn't consider Severus an equal?
He must have felt that she was somewhat his equal since he took the time and, for him, great effort, to get to know her.


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That wouldn't be enough to maintain a friendship for the first five years of Hogwarts when they both had other magical friends, and they both had other friends long before fifth year -Lily's who didn't see why she made excuses for him, Snape's who considered Lily and those like her to be scum. The only memories we see are those relevant to the development and end of their friendship.
My statement was meant to say that most "best friends" spend a lot of time together both in school and away. We don't see anything in the memories about this, so, it would be speculation to say one way or the other.

I've seen it with my own children, who went to Catholic School when all of the other children in the neighborhood went to the public school. Their friendships were closer with the kids at school during the school year, but, closer with their friends in the neighborhood during holidays and school breaks. However, their "best" friends were always included in holiday celebrations, birthday parties, trips, etc.

We are told any of this about Lily and Snape. Did they visit each other, or, was magic the only thing they had in common?


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Therein lies part of the problem -Lily wasn't in any way obliged to return Snape's feelings.
There wasn't any mention of "obligation." I just stated that I didn't feel Lily was or would be romantically interested in Severus and that it would be difficult to maintain a friendship once she became involved with another guy.



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Not to mention the things they did - the Dark Magic Mulciber used against Mary Macdonald and the final straw was Snape calling Lily a Mudblood - showing that he really did just consider her an exception to his prejudices, imo.
Children say and do terrible things when they are under stress. That does not excuse Snape from using "Mudblood," but, again, sometimes even "best friends" have major fights and call each other terrible names. I think they were drifting apart and Lily was just as glad to have a reason to end the relationship. Again, that does not make her a bad person. It only makes her human.


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That's not honour, that's just common decency, respecting someone's right to make their own decisions. IMO, feeding someone a love potion to gain their artificial affection is utterly despicable - it was completely wrong of Merope to give Riddle Sr. the love potion, it was utterly wrong of Romilda to try to slip love potion to Harry. Likewise if Snape had given Lily love potion.
You call it "decency," I call it "honor." It's the same thing. Snape could have stooped that low. He had the ability. But, as much as he loved Lily, he couldn't bring himself to do such a despicable thing.


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What indication is there that Lily wanted to end the friendship? I don't think "Mudblood" was the perfect excuse Lily had been looking for, I think it was a terrible betrayal of a friend on Snape's part. And certainly, someone who shared the views of Death Eaters in relation to people like Lily and people like her parents had no place in the future of a young woman who had "chosen her path" -i.e. opposition to that kind of terrorism.
As I said before, I think the "Mudblood" incident was just convenient. Lily had been taking a lot of heat from her other friends about her friendship with Snape. She was growing away from him and, IMO, that incident was a good time to break it off.


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  #339  
Old March 19th, 2010, 12:55 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
He must have felt that she was somewhat his equal since he took the time and, for him, great effort, to get to know her.
He got to know her as possibly the first other magical child he had met and maintained that friendship while at Hogwarts. However, as he became more familiar with the idea of blood purity and the instant superiority it gave over some of his peers, he did begin to consider others Mudbloods - he uses it against people other than Lily. It's a word that is utterly vile and is the wizarding world's equivalent of the worst racial slurs in the real world. It's more than just the word- it's the mindset behind it - the thinking that someone else is inferior because of their origins.
And to me, the fact that Snape says that when he's not in control of what he's saying suggests he's thinking in that way on some level. He may love Lily, see that she's an incredibly powerful witch, but she's still a Mudblood for whom he's making an exception because he loves her. IMO.

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My statement was meant to say that most "best friends" spend a lot of time together both in school and away. We don't see anything in the memories about this, so, it would be speculation to say one way or the other.
Why would we see memories where they were sitting in the garden at Lily's or studying for their O.W.L.s together? Snape needed to show Harry the memories that would show him the truth, about the past, about his loyalties, about the Horcrux. Other memories would have been superfluous in an already long book.

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There wasn't any mention of "obligation." I just stated that I didn't feel Lily was or would be romantically interested in Severus and that it would be difficult to maintain a friendship once she became involved with another guy.
That would be neither person's fault imo.

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Children say and do terrible things when they are under stress. That does not excuse Snape from using "Mudblood," but, again, sometimes even "best friends" have major fights and call each other terrible names. I think they were drifting apart and Lily was just as glad to have a reason to end the relationship. Again, that does not make her a bad person. It only makes her human.
Mudblood is the most loaded and vile racial word in the series, I don't think it can be compared to a simple fight. The example of another pair of best friends- in all their fights, Ron never, ever called Hermione a Mudblood - and he vehemently stood up to anyone who used that word against her - even when she did hit herself. Not that Ron gets extra brownie points for that - not using racial epithets against your friends is a pretty basic part of friendship. IMO, of course.


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You call it "decency," I call it "honor." It's the same thing. Snape could have stooped that low. He had the ability. But, as much as he loved Lily, he couldn't bring himself to do such a despicable thing.
I don't think someone deserves gratitude or credit for not taking advantage- and that's what feeding someone love potion is. Someone who would do that shows that their feelings are only desire, not love.


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As I said before, I think the "Mudblood" incident was just convenient. Lily had been taking a lot of heat from her other friends about her friendship with Snape. She was growing away from him and, IMO, that incident was a good time to break it off.
Lily was also concerned about the friends Snape had - people she felt were prejudiced junior DEs - and rightly so. I think it was just the straw that broke the camels' back. Lily had been friends with Severus for five years of her friends' objections -why should she suddenly decide to give up? I think that saying Lily was looking for an excuse minimises and trivialises the seriousness of throwing a racial epithet at one's best friend. Interestingly enough, Snape phrases his insult in almost the exact same way as Draco Malfoy in CoS:

"No one asked your opinion, you filthy little Mudblood", he spat.
Draco Malfoy, CoS, pge 86, UK edition

"I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her"
Severus Snape, OotP, pge 571, UK edition.
(Bold mine)

One of these is thrown by a 12 year old who has been indoctrinated from an early age with prejudices and is directed at a girl he strongly dislikes -not that it excuses it, just showing the difference in circumstances.
One is thrown by a 15/16 year old, at a girl he considers his best friend, who was standing up for him, and with whom he hopes for a romantic relationship.


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Last edited by FurryDice; March 19th, 2010 at 1:00 am.
  #340  
Old March 19th, 2010, 4:05 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Lily was also concerned about the friends Snape had - people she felt were prejudiced junior DEs - and rightly so. I think it was just the straw that broke the camels' back. Lily had been friends with Severus for five years of her friends' objections -why should she suddenly decide to give up? I think that saying Lily was looking for an excuse minimises and trivialises the seriousness of throwing a racial epithet at one's best friend.
You make a good point there. IMO, Lily convinced herself tha, despite the fact Snape hung around the "junior DE's", he wasn't completely like them and he was better than Avery and Mulciber who practiced Dark Magic and called everyone "Mudblood". She was aware of Snape calling people that as well, but I suppose we don't really feel the full force of an insult until it's directed at us, so she kept convincing herself. I think it really hit her in the SWM incident that Snape was just another one of them and she really had been making excuses for him for too long.


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