Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Agreed, but the relationship was doomed from the beginning when Harry looked at Snape and his scar hurt and he grimaced, leading Snape to think Harry hated him already.

It was a grimace of pain. Did Snape see it, and think maybe Petunia filled Harry in on his betrayal of Lily by calling her a Mudblood at school? Not sure Snape how much Snape knew about who was bringing up Harry at that point, but if Snape was wondering what caused Harry pain to look at him, that's the only thing I can think of.

Originally Posted by Blackcatsmeow

I don't think it was Harry's grimace. I think it was that he looked like James, and was sorted into Gryfindor. Followed quickly by becoming the youngest Seeker in a century.

Snape seems to have hated Harry before Harry became a Seeker (though I'm sure that added to it, considering Harry looked like James and Snape was jealous of James's Quidditch skills). But I agree on the "looked like James" and "sorted into Gryffindor" parts for Snape's initial hate of the child. I think he already resented Harry because Lily died protecting him, so he was predisposed to hate him when he saw him.

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Well, the expression was probably one that Snape saw frequently on James's face!

Well, Harry does look a lot like James, so if they were in pain their expressions would be similar.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I think that's correct. Snape probably had no knowledge of the effects of Harry's scar at that point in time, and it was easy enough for Snape to misinterpret that. Plus Harry talked back to him in his first class.

It is true that Snape does not know the effects of the scar, and that that is what caused Harry pain, rather than looking at Snape, who Harry had no knowledge of up to that point. I would think Snape assumed that Petunia had been telling Harry things about him, actually, since that is the only way Harry could know enough to have a reaction when he looked at Snape.

[Blackcatsmeow]

I think when Harry came into the first potions class. Snape already disliked him; but when he didn't show a natural ability towards potions, like Lily presumably had; I think he took it as confirmation that Harry was truly James' heir and legacy on the world not Lily's.

I think Snape was doomed to dislike Harry; because Harry was such a mix of his parents. He was living proof that Lily had loved someone else.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

It is true that Snape does not know the effects of the scar, and that that is what caused Harry pain, rather than looking at Snape, who Harry had no knowledge of up to that point. I would think Snape assumed that Petunia had been telling Harry things about him, actually, since that is the only way Harry could know enough to have a reaction when he looked at Snape.

Oh good point. I had forgotten about Snape and Petunia's history. That would be a logical conclusion for him to reach. Although Snape may have been aware that Harry and his aunt weren't on the best of terms since he, with Dumbledore had been keeping a bit of an eye out and would have likely been updated. Still, Snape could have easily imagined a petulant Petunia telling Harry everything out of spite. Good call.

[gertiekeddle]

I'm not sure whether I'd read the first eye contact of Snape and Harry that way. To me it's rather saying something about Harry's relation to Snape (his scar hurts due to Voldemort lingering behind Quirrells turban, not because Snape looks at him, but Harry believes so for quite some time) but not so much about Snape's to Harry.
Snape observes the boy he is - I totally agree here - determined to hate claping his face with his hand the moment he looks at him. Dunno if James ever did that, but imo it is unlikely that even Snape would judge such a clear reaction as disapproval towards him.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by Blackcatsmeow

Just did my first reread of the series since DH came out.

One of the things that struck me this time was the tragedy of the Harry/Snape relationship.

If Snape had been able to see past Harry resemblance to James, and Harry's Quidditch skills. If Snape could have seen Harry as his own person, or as Lily's son they could have had a very special relationship.

Harry was basically starving for adult approval and mentors. He quickly forms strong bonds with any adult who is genuinely kind to him. Look at his relationships with Hagrid, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lupin, etc.

Snape had the chance to really see that a very real and meaningful part of Lily lived on in Harry. But he squandered that, while he worked valiantly for Lily's memory, and to honor her sacrifice, I don't think he really ever understood what Harry was. Maybe, maybe at the very end, but in true Snape fashion only after it was to late.

I think that's really insightful. In DH, when Snape lets his indignation at Dumbledore's plan for Harry show, almost involuntarily, I think this potential shines through Snape's self-imposed guard and I find it a powerful moment, because it made me rethink his feelings for Harry, with one short like.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Sereena

Sure, but it was still a request done out of selfishness, right?

I think it was done out of an intense desire to keep Lily alive.

As Dumbledore himself pointed out when Snape said he'd only asked Voldemort for Lily's life.

I don't quite remember Dumbledore calling Snape selfish. He said Snape disgusted him, because Snape did not ask for James and Harry's lives. I thought Dumbledore was totally in the wrong to say that. I also thought he was being cruel and harsh to a man who was suffering already, albeit because of his own acts. I felt Snape could not ask for the life of James, who every one knew was his personal enemy for over seven years and Harry's life, when Snape himself brought news to Voldemort about the Prophecy. Once Voldemort chose Harry, that child was destined to vanquish Voldemort. How could Snape ask for Harry's life?

I believe Snape came to Dumbledore not because he cared for James or Harry; I don't think he did at that time; but because he knew they were very important to Lily and he also wanted to ensure Lily would be doubly safe.

I don't disagree that Snape's actions were important that night, but I disagree with the implication that he was a hero in that situation in some way.

I don't think he was a hero that night, mainly because he wasn't there, but I do think he was brave to ask Voldemort for Lily life, and he was certainly brave to come to Dumbledore on the hill, when he knew that Dumbledore could capture him and cart him off to Askaban, but I think he was a hero, when he decided to walk the long, hard, lonely road to change to become the man he did.

Remember that Snape's actions also contributed to the family being targeted in the first place. So in my mind it's something like this: minion tells psycho about a child who might grow up to destroy him, psycho identifies child and targets him and his family, minion is unhappy because the mother of the family happens to be someone he loves so he asks for her life to be spared as psycho does not need her dead in order to fulfill his purpose. I don't really see anything heroic here, though I agree that Snape has done other heroic acts in the series.

I think the Potters were targets long before Voldemort came for them because of the prophecy. They were members of the order and had defied and survived Voldemort three times. But yes, Snape's information did enable Voldemort to choose Harry and because of Harry, the Potters became specific targets.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't quite remember Dumbledore calling Snape selfish. He said Snape disgusted him, because Snape did not ask for James and Harry's lives. I thought Dumbledore was totally in the wrong to say that. I also thought he was being cruel and harsh to a man who was suffering already, albeit because of his own acts. I felt Snape could not ask for the life of James, who every one knew was his personal enemy for over seven years and Harry's life, when Snape himself brought news to Voldemort about the Prophecy. Once Voldemort chose Harry, that child was destined to vanquish Voldemort. How could Snape ask for Harry's life?

I don't think Dumbledore meant that Snape should have asked for James's life as well, just that Snape only seemed to be concerned about Lily because he loved her and not all that concerned about the murder of a young family. This is where the selfishness comes into it. He loved her so he wanted her to live. He didn't love James so he didn't care that James lost his life (or that the murdering of her family would devastate Lily).

I don't think he was a hero that night, mainly because he wasn't there, but I do think he was brave to ask Voldemort for Lily life, and he was certainly brave to come to Dumbledore on the hill, when he knew that Dumbledore could capture him and cart him off to Askaban, but I think he was a hero, when he decided to walk the long, hard, lonely road to change to become the man he did.

I actually think his character was not allowed to grow or change as much as he could have. The fact that he holds grudges is part of his charm so to speak so I don't have a problem with that. But whenever there was any indication that his motivation was something other than just Lily Lily Lily, it turns out it wasn't. Even the "Always" scene confirms it. Many readers find it touching and it is, but it also shows Snape as a static character whose motivation (or love life) hardly changed from the time he was 11.

I think the Potters were targets long before Voldemort came for them because of the prophecy.

Definitely.

[ShadowSonic]

There's also that Snape apparently never had any intention of honoring his "Life Debt" to James when this would've been the perfect time for that. But I suppose there was only so much he could do.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

There's also that Snape apparently never had any intention of honoring his "Life Debt" to James when this would've been the perfect time for that. But I suppose there was only so much he could do.

The fact that there were no consequences when he ignored the supposed life debt is interesting. In fact Severus didn't believe there was a life debt: he thought James was saving Remus's life rather than his.

Actually I think Dumbledore's comment was misdirection and there was no life debt.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Sereena

I don't think Dumbledore meant that Snape should have asked for James's life as well, just that Snape only seemed to be concerned about Lily because he loved her and not all that concerned about the murder of a young family. This is where the selfishness comes into it. He loved her so he wanted her to live. He didn't love James so he didn't care that James lost his life (or that the murdering of her family would devastate Lily).

To Snape, James was his enemy and I don't think he thought about Harry at all. If he did, he wouldn't have taken the half prophecy to Voldemort knowing that Voldemort would most likely kill the child no sooner than he was born.

I guess I agree that Snape did not care much for James's life and I won't call him selfish for it. Ron in the RoR wanted to leave Goyle behind to die in the Fiendfyre because to Ron, Goyle was the enemy. I don't think Molly lost any tears for offing Bellatrix. To her, Bellatrix was the enemy.

Harry himself in HBP wished for Snape's death once he came to know Snape was the DADA teacher. That was because he saw Snape as the enemy imo. Should Snape feel compassion for his enemy? Sure I think that'd make him a very good person with exalted ideals. Did he? I'm afraid not at that time; there would come a time when the 21 year old Snape would grow, mature and learn life's lessons and do his best to save friend and foe if they were working for the same cause. But at 21 years Snape, I think did not care for the foe who was on the opposite side.

I actually think his character was not allowed to grow or change as much as he could have. The fact that he holds grudges is part of his charm so to speak so I don't have a problem with that. But whenever there was any indication that his motivation was something other than just Lily Lily Lily, it turns out it wasn't. Even the "Always" scene confirms it. Many readers find it touching and it is, but it also shows Snape as a static character whose motivation (or love life) hardly changed from the time he was 11.

I believe Snape as we see him in the Books is severely handicapped by the fact he is a spy. We don't see the real Snape openly. I do think, though, that the real Snape Snape slipped away at times to show his true personality, which was certainly not a grudging bitter man who wasn't allowed to grow.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

There's also that Snape apparently never had any intention of honoring his "Life Debt" to James when this would've been the perfect time for that. But I suppose there was only so much he could do.

I think it's debatable for whom James Potter came. Two students were his friends and one of them was almost like his brother. Remus would have been expelled at best and probably lost his life or be carted off to Azkaban/Kissed at worst, while Sirius would have been expelled and also shipped off to Azkaban or Kissed and then there was Snape who was not thought of very highly by the three students. While of course it's possible that James came there only for Snape who owed him a lie debt, and not for Remus and Sirius who didn't owe him anything, I think it's more the other way around. That Remus and Sirius owed James life debts for he surely saved their lives, magic and from a long stint in Azkaban. Saving Snape saved the other two and I think that's what happened.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I guess I agree that Snape did not care much for James's life and I won't call him selfish for it.

Lily loved James, James made her happy. Snape loved Lily, so shouldn't he care that her husband and child were about to be killed? That's where the selfishness comes in, IMO. I can't see it as heroic that he wanted her to be spared. Any man who loves a woman (or indeed even just "desires" her) would not want her to be killed, it doesn't take a hero to feel that way about someone.

Harry himself in HBP wished for Snape's death once he came to know Snape was the DADA teacher. That was because he saw Snape as the enemy imo. Should Snape feel compassion for his enemy? Sure I think that'd make him a very good person with exalted ideals.

I'm not saying he should feel compassion or care about James. I understand that he hated him after what James and his pals did to him in school. But we're talking about whether or not Snape's act of asking Voldemort for Lily's life was noble and heroic and I'm saying that I don't think it was. It was a normal gesture from someone who loves someone. I actually see parallels between Snape and Narcissa. Both were okay with Voldemort's ideals and methods until Voldemort turned against someone they loved. At that time, both of them abandoned ship.

I believe Snape as we see him in the Books is severely handicapped by the fact he is a spy. We don't see the real Snape openly. I do think, though, that the real Snape Snape slipped away at times to show his true personality, which was certainly not a grudging bitter man who wasn't allowed to grow

He was at least a little bit bitter, wasn't he? He could have acted indifferently towards Harry and his mates, he could have just ignored Sirius and Remus. I don't think it's fair to say that he didn't hold any grudges. It's a big part of who he was, IMO.

As for growth, it's implied somewhat by the "lately, only those I could not save", but cancelled out by the whole "Always" thing and JKR's comments that he wouldn't have cared what happened to Harry if it hadn't been for Lily (though those aren't strictly canon).

[ShadowSonic]

Makes me wonder how he'd have acted if Harry had been Harriet and looked just like Lily except she had James' eyes.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Sereena

Lily loved James, James made her happy. Snape loved Lily, so shouldn't he care that her husband and child were about to be killed?

That's why I think Snape came to Dumbledore. While I'm sure his dislike of James meant not much affection or care about James's general well being, Snape knew Lilys happiness meant James and Harry being alive and whole. Does Snape have to like James? I don't think so. Did he need to particularly care about James's life? I don't think so. But he knew for Lily to happy, James and Harry needed to be protected. So he came to Dumbledore; also it did not hurt to have Lily protected twice, which may also have factored into his meeting with Dumbledore.

That's where the selfishness comes in, IMO. I can't see it as heroic that he wanted her to be spared. Any man who loves a woman (or indeed even just "desires" her) would not want her to be killed, it doesn't take a hero to feel that way about someone.

I think it was brave on his part to ask Voldemort for Lilys life, knowing she was an Muggleborn. I think it was brave of him to come to meet Dumbledore on the hill. Heroic I think Snape was when he look a long, hard look at himself and started to change, and continued to evolve until he died.

I actually see parallels between Snape and Narcissa. Both were okay with Voldemort's ideals and methods until Voldemort turned against someone they loved. At that time, both of them abandoned ship.

Just like Dumbledore was okay with Grindelwald's ideals until his sister died and Grindelwald abandoned him. Then he changed to become the man he did.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Makes me wonder how he'd have acted if Harry had been Harriet and looked just like Lily except she had James' eyes.

I think he'd be much the same.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

That's why I think Snape came to Dumbledore. While I'm sure his dislike of James meant not much affection or care about James's general well being, Snape knew Lilys happiness meant James and Harry being alive and whole. Does Snape have to like James? I don't think so. Did he need to particularly care about James's life? I don't think so. But he knew for Lily to happy, James and Harry needed to be protected.

I disagree. In DH, Chapter 33, "The Prince's Tale", we see Snape's memory of his meeting with Dumbledore when he realized Voldemort decided Harry was the one he needed to kill:

"You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down --- kill them all ---"

"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother in exchange for the son?"

"I have --- I have asked him ---"

"You disgust me," said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little. "You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

It is only after Snape realizes Dumbledore would not help him save Lily without the others being safeguarded as well that he relents. I think Snape, at that point at least, understood very little about love except as it related to him. He didn't love Lily enough to realize she would be forced to live having seen the murders of her husband and son. He thought only in terms of himself.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think it was brave on his part to ask Voldemort for Lilys life, knowing she was an Muggleborn. I think it was brave of him to come to meet Dumbledore on the hill. Heroic I think Snape was when he look a long, hard look at himself and started to change, and continued to evolve until he died.

Again, I disagree. In light of the example of Snape's memory quoted above, I think that Snape was driven only by self-interest, nothing more.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

To Snape, James was his enemy and I don't think he thought about Harry at all. If he did, he wouldn't have taken the half prophecy to Voldemort knowing that Voldemort would most likely kill the child no sooner than he was born.

I guess I agree that Snape did not care much for James's life and I won't call him selfish for it. Ron in the RoR wanted to leave Goyle behind to die in the Fiendfyre because to Ron, Goyle was the enemy. I don't think Molly lost any tears for offing Bellatrix. To her, Bellatrix was the enemy.

Harry himself in HBP wished for Snape's death once he came to know Snape was the DADA teacher. That was because he saw Snape as the enemy imo. Should Snape feel compassion for his enemy? Sure I think that'd make him a very good person with exalted ideals. Did he? I'm afraid not at that time; there would come a time when the 21 year old Snape would grow, mature and learn life's lessons and do his best to save friend and foe if they were working for the same cause. But at 21 years Snape, I think did not care for the foe who was on the opposite side.



I believe Snape as we see him in the Books is severely handicapped by the fact he is a spy. We don't see the real Snape openly. I do think, though, that the real Snape Snape slipped away at times to show his true personality, which was certainly not a grudging bitter man who wasn't allowed to grow.



I think it's debatable for whom James Potter came. Two students were his friends and one of them was almost like his brother. Remus would have been expelled at best and probably lost his life or be carted off to Azkaban/Kissed at worst, while Sirius would have been expelled and also shipped off to Azkaban or Kissed and then there was Snape who was not thought of very highly by the three students. While of course it's possible that James came there only for Snape who owed him a lie debt, and not for Remus and Sirius who didn't owe him anything, I think it's more the other way around. That Remus and Sirius owed James life debts for he surely saved their lives, magic and from a long stint in Azkaban. Saving Snape saved the other two and I think that's what happened.

I think the most important point is that James saved Snape. It was Snape that brought up James' motive when he was telling Harry about the events. At the time, his sole intent was to badmouth his old enemy and he believed that by destroying Jame's motive, it somehow destroyed any merit associated with James' act.

The thing is, regardless as to what would have happened to Remus or Sirius - Azkaban or death or whatever - Snape would likely be dead as well. That is the most important fact for Snape. He was only alive because of James. Everything else, including James' motive, didn't matter at all. Snape had life and he needed to be grateful for that.

I think the purpose of this scene was to reveal the extent of one of the negative aspects of Snape's character. Over a decade had passed and Snape continued to cling to the stubborn mindset of his youth, to the extent that he would demean a dead man to his young, impressionable son. There is no excuse for that, imo, but I didn't feel like JRK intended for there to be one. That is just who he was.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I think the most important point is that James saved Snape. It was Snape that brought up James' motive when he was telling Harry about the events. At the time, his sole intent was to badmouth his old enemy and he believed that by destroying Jame's motive, it somehow destroyed any merit associated with James' act.

He said pretty much the same thing to Lily when she confronted him about the fact that he was ungrateful for what James did to save him from "whatever's down there" in The Prince's Tale chapter of DH. Twenty years later Snape was telling the same skewed take on what happened that night.

Originally Posted by WWB

The thing is, regardless as to what would have happened to Remus or Sirius - Azkaban or death or whatever - Snape would likely be dead as well. That is the most important fact for Snape. He was only alive because of James. Everything else, including James' motive, didn't matter at all. Snape had life and he needed to be grateful for that.

At the very least he would have become a werewolf himself, and probably suffered a severe wound or several wounds.

Originally Posted by WWB

I think the purpose of this scene was to reveal the extent of one of the negative aspects of Snape's character. Over a decade had passed and Snape continued to cling to the stubborn mindset of his youth, to the extent that he would demean a dead man to his young, impressionable son. There is no excuse for that, imo, but I didn't feel like JRK intended for there to be one. That is just who he was.

Snape was an incredibly needy person, I think. I was listening an old song by the Doobie Brothers, "What a Fool Believes," the other day and Snape came to mind as the incarnation of the fool. "As she rises to her apology, anybody else would surely know he's watching her go, but what a fool believes, he sees." He never moved on from his obsession with Lily. She was, perhaps, the first of his failures with those he most wanted to impress. Voldemort was the second in that Lucius Malfoy was his Number One, so to speak. After Voldemort killed Lily, Snape fixated on being Dumbledore's Number One. We read the truth of that in The Prince's Tale, again, as Snape's fury at Dumbledore closeting with Harry and not letting Snape in on what they were doing was glaringly obvious.

[ShadowSonic]

The sad thing was that if Lily had lived, Snape might've just accepted it and moved on with his life and probably found happiness with someone else. Her dying turned her into a martyr in his mind, some symbol of perfection. Of course, Harry also sees her as since (and the narrative seems to make her out to be perfect as well) so I'm not sure if this is intentional or not.

I'm not sure whether this inability to grow up into a real adult is something Snape always suffered from or if it was mainly the result what happened to the Potters.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I disagree. In DH, Chapter 33, "The Prince's Tale", we see Snape's memory of his meeting with Dumbledore when he realized Voldemort decided Harry was the one he needed to kill:

"You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down --- kill them all ---"

"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother in exchange for the son?"

"I have --- I have asked him ---"

"You disgust me," said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little. "You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

It is only after Snape realizes Dumbledore would not help him save Lily without the others being safeguarded as well that he relents. I think Snape, at that point at least, understood very little about love except as it related to him. He didn't love Lily enough to realize she would be forced to live having seen the murders of her husband and son. He thought only in terms of himself.

I don't think Snape felt that just because Lily would die if her husband and child died, he need not bother to ask Voldemort for her life. He did the only thing he could do with Voldemort, which I believe was to ask for Lily's life. He came to Dumbeldore because I think he believed that for Lily to be happy, she needed her son and husband to be alive. While he could not ask Voldemort for that boon, he could warn Dumbledore and ask him to keep her and them safe. Which is what I think he did.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

The thing is, regardless as to what would have happened to Remus or Sirius - Azkaban or death or whatever - Snape would likely be dead as well. That is the most important fact for Snape. He was only alive because of James. Everything else, including James' motive, didn't matter at all. Snape had life and he needed to be grateful for that.

From my point of view, I think the more important point is would James Potter have come to the Shack if it weren't for Sirius and Remus. If he came to know Snape was in danger of losing his life and if Sirius and Remus weren't involved, would James Potter have come there to save Snape's life? I'm quite sure he would not have. in OOTP Snape is attacked by a student for existing. Would such a student rush to save Snape, when Snape was in danger of losing his life in a situation of his own making. I don't think he would.

While I agree that James Potter did save Snape's life, I disagree that he would have done so even if Sirius and Remus were not there. James Potter I believe came to save Remus and Sirius, especially Sirius, and for him to save Sirius and Remus he had to save Snape. Which he did. That to me is more believable.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't think Snape felt that just because Lily would die if her husband and child died, he need not bother to ask Voldemort for her life. He did the only thing he could do with Voldemort, which I believe was to ask for Lily's life. He came to Dumbeldore because I think he believed that for Lily to be happy, she needed her son and husband to be alive. While he could not ask Voldemort for that boon, he could warn Dumbledore and ask him to keep her and them safe. Which is what I think he did.

If you closely read the passage from the book, it's clear that Snape had told Voldemort that he need only kill the child but not the mother as Snape desired her (we learn that from Voldemort in DH). It's also very clear that Dumbledore specifically phrased it that way to see if that's what Snape had indeed asked for. Snape made no distinction or protest that he had not suggested Voldemort just kill the child. Sorry, but Snape wasn't thinking about Lily at all, only that he wasn't sure he could live if Lily died. Not the same thing at all.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

From my point of view, I think the more important point is would James Potter have come to the Shack if it weren't for Sirius and Remus. If he came to know Snape was in danger of losing his life and if Sirius and Remus weren't involved, would James Potter have come there to save Snape's life? I'm quite sure he would not have. in OOTP Snape is attacked by a student for existing. Would such a student rush to save Snape, when Snape was in danger of losing his life in a situation of his own making. I don't think he would.

Well that is important to James' point of view, and if he thought that way, he would have to work on that during his life. But remember he was a Gryffindor and they are innately brave and courageous. So it was likely he had those traits and would have saved Snape independent of the circumstances. If he would only assist his friends, then his trait would have been some kind of selfish love for those he loved (Similar to Draco) - and he would have been raffled into Slytherin.

So while I think we were to understand Snape's storyline was nonsense and that James had saved him because he was simply a man in danger (as any good Gryffindor would do), I think Snape's rant wrongly shifted the focus from his point of view to James' point of view.

From Snape's point of view, imo, he should have been thinking, 'who cares why James saved me'! Because the only thing that really mattered to him was his safety and health. James placed himself in some danger as well, so the right thing to do would be to acknowledge that James had done it. And of course thank his lucky stars that he was alive and not a werewolf.

While I agree that James Potter did save Snape's life, I disagree that he would have done so even if Sirius and Remus were not there. James Potter I believe came to save Remus and Sirius, especially Sirius, and for him to save Sirius and Remus he had to save Snape. Which he did. That to me is more believable.

Well that's possible - and from James' point of view, he might should have been thinking about transferring to Slytherin with that selfish sort of thinking. I just don't think that is what JKR had in mind, but it is possible.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

He said pretty much the same thing to Lily when she confronted him about the fact that he was ungrateful for what James did to save him from "whatever's down there" in The Prince's Tale chapter of DH. Twenty years later Snape was telling the same skewed take on what happened that night.

Yup, he continually put the focus on James and his motive instead of acknowledging he'd been saved from potential horrors or death. As I said above, what difference does it make to Snape? I mean when someone saves your life the last thing that you should be on about doing is questioning their motive and then accusing them of not saving you with the correct mindset.

Snape was an incredibly needy person, I think. I was listening an old song by the Doobie Brothers, "What a Fool Believes," the other day and Snape came to mind as the incarnation of the fool. "As she rises to her apology, anybody else would surely know he's watching her go, but what a fool believes, he sees." He never moved on from his obsession with Lily. She was, perhaps, the first of his failures with those he most wanted to impress. Voldemort was the second in that Lucius Malfoy was his Number One, so to speak. After Voldemort killed Lily, Snape fixated on being Dumbledore's Number One. We read the truth of that in The Prince's Tale, again, as Snape's fury at Dumbledore closeting with Harry and not letting Snape in on what they were doing was glaringly obvious.

Yeah and I get it. He had a poor upbringing and a tough childhood, but like Harry, one can overcome those things. However, he was also set up to join Slytherin house by JKR, which means it was in his nature to be the type of individual that behaved the way he did - and also, among those that were most likely to follow the ways of Voldemort. So he had a lot to overcome - and he wasn't the only one. All of the Slytherins had a difficult time stepping back from evil.

In hindsight, it feels like the 'human side' of Snape's character was trying to get a free pass off of his rejection of evil. But that just didn't work for me. As an everyday individual - professor, mentor, protector, individual etc., he failed to ever reach a socially acceptable level of interaction with the world, imo. He was very consistent though; he was the same way with people on the good side, bad side and every other side (except Voldemort and Dumbledore), which to me shows that it was simply his personality.