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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #461  
Old March 11th, 2012, 5:08 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio
I don't think its possible to return a spilled fluid to a broken container. Repairo worked to fix the bowl of dittany Hermione drops at one point but she couldn't "repairo" to dittany back into the bowl... So Snape couldn't "repairo" Harry's potion back into his cauldron - any why would he? This gave him a perfectly good excuse to do his favorite thing: fail Harry.

Wasn't there an instance where someone magically threw potion at someone else? (I may be mixing worlds here.) If so, it would be possible to return the potion to the vial.

But I see your point--even if Snape hadn't knocked over Harry's assignment, he wouldn't go out of his way to help him. Though I don't see why Harry couldn't repair the vial and recover the potion himself, though it was probably then contaminated.
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HBP: Horace Slughorn“What kind of blood was that, incidentally?” asked Dumbledore loudly over the chiming of the newly unsmashed grandfather clock.

“On the walls? Dragon,” shouted the wizard called Horace, as, with a deafening grinding and tinkling, the chandelier screwed itself back into the ceiling.

There was a final plunk from th piano, and silence.

“Yes, dragon,” repeated the wizard conversationally. “My last bottle, and prices are sky-high at the moment. Still, it might be reusable.”

He stumped over to a small crystal bottle standing on top of a side board and held it up to the light, examining the thick liquid within.

“Hmm. Bit dusty.”
So it's shown here that fluid can be returned to a container, though it may pick up impurities (wonder if there is a spell to fix that--this scene makes no reference either way.) The impurities may or may not have effected Harry's potion. I think Snape would have been capable of performing the charm--though, as Goddess Clio points out, why would he?


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  #462  
Old March 11th, 2012, 6:11 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Found it!
HBP: Horace Slughorn“What kind of blood was that, incidentally?” asked Dumbledore loudly over the chiming of the newly unsmashed grandfather clock.

“On the walls? Dragon,” shouted the wizard called Horace, as, with a deafening grinding and tinkling, the chandelier screwed itself back into the ceiling.

There was a final plunk from th piano, and silence.

“Yes, dragon,” repeated the wizard conversationally. “My last bottle, and prices are sky-high at the moment. Still, it might be reusable.”

He stumped over to a small crystal bottle standing on top of a side board and held it up to the light, examining the thick liquid within.

“Hmm. Bit dusty.”
So it's shown here that fluid can be returned to a container, though it may pick up impurities (wonder if there is a spell to fix that--this scene makes no reference either way.) The impurities may or may not have effected Harry's potion. I think Snape would have been capable of performing the charm--though, as Goddess Clio points out, why would he?
"Repairo-ing" a fluid back into a container might have to do with the fluid's consistency; the dittany Hermione spills might have been very liquid-y, like water, whereas the dragons blood is described as "thick" so it might be more viscous or have more body to it than a fluid like water and might therefore be more likely to be effected by the "repairo" charm - does that make sense? like it would be easier to repairo syrup or honey back into a container than water or juice or something because syrup or honey is stickier... lol this argument is getting less and less cool-sounding, I'm going to stop here

So it's possible Snape was simply unable to return Harry's potion to the cauldron because of its consistency, but then again, he might have been able to but just didn't want to.


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  #463  
Old March 11th, 2012, 6:58 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
"Repairo-ing" a fluid back into a container might have to do with the fluid's consistency; the dittany Hermione spills might have been very liquid-y, like water, whereas the dragons blood is described as "thick" so it might be more viscous or have more body to it than a fluid like water and might therefore be more likely to be effected by the "repairo" charm - does that make sense? like it would be easier to repairo syrup or honey back into a container than water or juice or something because syrup or honey is stickier... lol this argument is getting less and less cool-sounding, I'm going to stop here
It's possible that consistency would affect the outcome of returning a liquid to it's container after it's spilled. But I would think dragon's blood was similar to our blood--not homogenous--it has solids and liquids. So if the blood returned to the bottle was still useable, then I would think both parts would have to be recombined--the thick, sticky parts as well as the more fluid parts. Interesting that what JKR uses in this instance covers both ends of the spectrum.

Odd that Slughorn could tell that it was dusty, methinks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
So it's possible Snape was simply unable to return Harry's potion to the cauldron because of its consistency, but then again, he might have been able to but just didn't want to.
I think he still had his dander up about their last Occlumency lesson and would not have gone out of his way to help Harry with his assignment.


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  #464  
Old March 11th, 2012, 5:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Guys, every single post must clearly relate back to the thread topic. If you go off at a tangent exploring details which may or may not prove something about Snape you must include at least one sentence making very clear how this information relates back to Snape. It is not fair to expect people who've just joined the thread to have to scroll back several posts or even pages to work out how what you're talking about relates to Snape.


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  #465  
Old March 11th, 2012, 11:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

My apologies! I should have included a link to posts further up on the thread where this topic was discussed in greater detail. I became excited and lost my head when I found the reference while studying HBP for the Read-a-Thon thread.


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  #466  
Old March 11th, 2012, 11:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Harry was having Occulmancy lessons with Snape, Snape ran out of the room to help Montague, and Harry dove into Snape's memories in the pensieve. The next time they had class, Snape ignored Harry. Harry, who believed he had brewed his potion correctly, set his flask in Snape's desk, turned around, and heard a crash. Some think Snape knocked it over, but I'm convinced Harry wasn't paying attention, and set the potion too close to the edge of the desk. I think this was an example in the books where it was left open ended so that some would still suspect Snape was "not a very nice guy," so to speak. In my opinion, Snape was very hurt and angry over Harry's actions, and he had chosen to ignore Harry. I can't see him knocking over the potion with a classroom full of students watching.

I think the current subject is whether or not Snape could have rescued Harry's potion and put it back in the flask and graded it. IMHO, it would depend on the potion and the consistency, but I also think Snape was so angry with Harry at that moment that he had no intentions of going out of his way to correct Harry's mistake.


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  #467  
Old March 12th, 2012, 6:53 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Harry was having Occulmancy lessons with Snape, Snape ran out of the room to help Montague, and Harry dove into Snape's memories in the pensieve. The next time they had class, Snape ignored Harry. Harry, who believed he had brewed his potion correctly, set his flask in Snape's desk, turned around, and heard a crash. Some think Snape knocked it over, but I'm convinced Harry wasn't paying attention, and set the potion too close to the edge of the desk. I think this was an example in the books where it was left open ended so that some would still suspect Snape was "not a very nice guy," so to speak. In my opinion, Snape was very hurt and angry over Harry's actions, and he had chosen to ignore Harry. I can't see him knocking over the potion with a classroom full of students watching.
It certainly doesn't sound like it was Harry's fault at all. Carefully reading the passage of the incident (OOTP, pages 660-661 US edition in "Career Advice"), the "accident" happens after Harry has already put it on Snape's desk, and when Harry turns around, Snape is looking at Harry "with gloating pleasure". Snape has, of course, noticed that Hermione cleaned up for Harry after he flasked & corked his sample, and that Harry would not be able to submit another. Snape took the opportunity to make sure Harry's work was for naught when he saw Hermione empty the cauldron. Sorry, but the way the passage reads, it seems clear that Snape intentionally nudged Harry's sample off his desk on purpose.


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  #468  
Old March 12th, 2012, 9:15 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
It certainly doesn't sound like it was Harry's fault at all. Carefully reading the passage of the incident (OOTP, pages 660-661 US edition in "Career Advice"), the "accident" happens after Harry has already put it on Snape's desk, and when Harry turns around, Snape is looking at Harry "with gloating pleasure". Snape has, of course, noticed that Hermione cleaned up for Harry after he flasked & corked his sample, and that Harry would not be able to submit another. Snape took the opportunity to make sure Harry's work was for naught when he saw Hermione empty the cauldron. Sorry, but the way the passage reads, it seems clear that Snape intentionally nudged Harry's sample off his desk on purpose.
Quote:
At the end of the lesson he scooped up some of the potion into a flask, corked it and took it up to Snape's desk for marking, feeling that he might at last have scraped an 'E'.

He had just turned away when he heard a smashing noise. Malfoy gave a gleeful yell of laughter. Harry whipped around. His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor and Snape was watching him with a look of gloating pleasure.

"Whoops,' he said softly. 'Another zero, then, Potter.'
There's nothing in that short passage to indicate that Snape saw Hermione clean up Harry's workspace, although I suppose it's possible he did.

Once again JKR has written the scene in such a manner that the reader can deduce almost anything s/he wants.


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  #469  
Old March 12th, 2012, 7:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

snapes witch is right, my interpretation when I first read that passage (and now again, for that matter) was that Malfoy had pushed it off the desk. All Snape did was look pleased.


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  #470  
Old March 13th, 2012, 1:09 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Admitted,Severus had a bit of a petty streak when it came to Harry, but I don't think he would have pushed the flask off the desk to give Harry an intentional zero. I can see him gloating if the flask fell off, but not pushing it himself. Also, I didn't get the idea that he had seen Hermione clean up Harry's work space.

Since Harry passed his Fifth Year Potions with an "Exceeds Expectations," and wasn't enough of an outstanding Potions student to make up for many zeroes or failing marks, is it possible that Severus was able to recognize that the potion was correct, then gave Harry a passing mark even though he ridiculed him in front of the class? This would have made him look good to the DE's kids and still would have given Harry a passing grade that they wouldn't have known about.

By OotP Severus was still trying to win his way back into Voldemort's good graces and any negative report from one of the DE's children, such as Draco, Goyle, Crabbe, etc., might have made that more difficult. By making Harry look foolish he was winning the approval of the Slytherin DE offspring. More than likely good reports about him and his dislike of Harry would have been going home to the parents, and, in turn, to Voldemort.


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  #471  
Old March 13th, 2012, 6:05 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Admitted,Severus had a bit of a petty streak when it came to Harry, but I don't think he would have pushed the flask off the desk to give Harry an intentional zero. I can see him gloating if the flask fell off, but not pushing it himself. Also, I didn't get the idea that he had seen Hermione clean up Harry's work space.
I think it would have been very easy for Snape to use a non-verbal spell to get the flask over the edge of the desk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minerva'sCat
Since Harry passed his Fifth Year Potions with an "Exceeds Expectations," and wasn't enough of an outstanding Potions student to make up for many zeroes or failing marks, is it possible that Severus was able to recognize that the potion was correct, then gave Harry a passing mark even though he ridiculed him in front of the class? This would have made him look good to the DE's kids and still would have given Harry a passing grade that they wouldn't have known about.

By OotP Severus was still trying to win his way back into Voldemort's good graces and any negative report from one of the DE's children, such as Draco, Goyle, Crabbe, etc., might have made that more difficult. By making Harry look foolish he was winning the approval of the Slytherin DE offspring. More than likely good reports about him and his dislike of Harry would have been going home to the parents, and, in turn, to Voldemort.
Both very good points, I think that there's likely truth in both. However, there is real dislike of Harry by Snape, as we see him complaining to Dumbledore in the pensieve memories from the very beginning. There are no points to win or favorable impressions to gain by complaining to Dumbledore.


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  #472  
Old March 13th, 2012, 3:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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I think it would have been very easy for Snape to use a non-verbal spell to get the flask over the edge of the desk.
True but Harry didn't like Snape and often blamed Snape for things Snape didn't do, such as trying to knock Harry off his broom during Quiddich in the first book, and later on, Sirius' death, IMHO.

The scene in the book was left open to interpretation intentionally by the author, I believe. I personally don't believe Snape would intentionally destroy a student's classwork or give them a poor grade when they earned a better one. We never hear the trio saying their grades in his class were not accurate.


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  #473  
Old March 13th, 2012, 6:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I understood the Fifth year tests were their O.W.L.S. and they were given and graded independent of the Hogwarts faculty. So Harry's Exceeds Expectations was not from Snape, though what Harry learned of Potions was.


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  #474  
Old March 13th, 2012, 6:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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I understood the Fifth year tests were their O.W.L.S. and they were given and graded independent of the Hogwarts faculty. So Harry's Exceeds Expectations was not from Snape, though what Harry learned of Potions was.
Yes, my understanding of OWLs is they're a bit like Muggle GCSEs in England and Wales - not continuously assessed, so how well you do in class and for homeworks during the year is irrelevant to what grade you get in the externally assessed exams that count towards your future career.

To bring this back to Snape, giving Harry zero marks may be petty, cruel and unfair, but it is not directly going to impact on his future (although arguably it cold destroy his confidence enough to affect his performance in the external tests).


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Old March 13th, 2012, 7:58 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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To bring this back to Snape, giving Harry zero marks may be petty, cruel and unfair, but it is not directly going to impact on his future (although arguably it cold destroy his confidence enough to affect his performance in the external tests).
And I think this is illustrated in HBP when Harry starts using Snape's old Potion book. When Harry is able to directly access Snape's knowledge without Snape's personality and animosity in the way, Harry excels at Potions and his confidence increases tremendously.


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  #476  
Old March 13th, 2012, 8:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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I understood the Fifth year tests were their O.W.L.S. and they were given and graded independent of the Hogwarts faculty. So Harry's Exceeds Expectations was not from Snape, though what Harry learned of Potions was.
But...they still receive grades in their classes at the end of each year, so they know where they stand in each subject long before they take their O.W.L.S. and which subjects they are strong in and which subjects they need to improve upon. They are also graded on homework assignments. A professor's grades are important, IMHO, and they show a student's understanding of the subject.

If Snape were not grading them accurately as they went along, it would have come up. I also believe Snape wants the students to score well and I personally see nothing which shows he would have graded them unfairly. Personally, I see no examples in any of the books where Snape ruined a student's schoolwork, or where his grading was biased.

I'm not saying he wasn't angry enough at Harry to knock his flask off the desk, but the book doesn't say either way, and I don't see a precedent for it in the books.


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Old March 14th, 2012, 3:38 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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I think it would have been very easy for Snape to use a non-verbal spell to get the flask over the edge of the desk.
I'm sure he would have been, but that doesn't mean that he did. The scene is left to interpretation, and mine is that the flask fell off the desk. But, that doesn't make it so, either. Just my opinion.

Quote:
Both very good points, I think that there's likely truth in both. However, there is real dislike of Harry by Snape, as we see him complaining to Dumbledore in the pensieve memories from the very beginning. There are no points to win or favorable impressions to gain by complaining to Dumbledore.
The memories that we see where he is complaining to Dumbledore are during Harry's first year. IMO, those were based on his dislike of Harry's father. Later, because each had unfounded negative ideas about the other the animosity between the two just snowballed. After so long it just became the norm between them.


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  #478  
Old March 14th, 2012, 5:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I always got the idea that Draco or one of his cronies knocked it off, and that maybe Snape saw, but didn't do anything about it.


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Old March 14th, 2012, 6:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I always thought Harry's robes brushed against it, and he hadn't kept the bottle carefully in the first place, so it fell off. Sometimes, we knock things over, without knowing that it was us that did it. It is a possibility, specially in long, swishy robes. JMO.


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Old March 14th, 2012, 6:59 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by iluvseverus View Post
I always thought Harry's robes brushed against it, and he hadn't kept the bottle carefully in the first place, so it fell off. Sometimes, we knock things over, without knowing that it was us that did it. It is a possibility, specially in long, swishy robes. JMO.
I also imagine that his robes brushed the top of the flask as he turned away. It says he heard the smashing noise "just as he turned away", so I think it must have been on its way down to the floor almost immediately after placing it on the desk. Accidents happen, and I don't think Snape or Draco's reaction to Harry's misfortune in this instance would be anything new.


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