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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5



 
 
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  #661  
Old August 17th, 2011, 8:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by HokeyHouseElf View Post
The fact that Lily could let a single word ruin her friendship is, in my opinion, really sad.
There are few things in this life worse than that kind of cruelty and betrayel. I myself wonder why Snape let his inner bigotry destroy the one good thing in his life. It wasn't the word so much as what the word represented. The word was representative IMO of the Death Eater ethos of the genocide and torture of Muggleborn witches and wizards. It meant that Snape bought into the bigotry and thought that the people of Lily's birth were not worthy of living. It was the most terrible betrayel that Snape could have committed and it must have cut Lily's heart out that her best friend thought that she was filth not worthy of living unless he said so. IMO. 'Mudblood' meant that Lily's blood was less than the dirt under his feet. That is what the word meant, bigotry and hatred of the worst kind.



Last edited by eliza101; August 17th, 2011 at 8:50 pm.
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  #662  
Old August 17th, 2011, 8:50 pm
JohanT  Undisclosed.gif JohanT is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
Always? Do we have canon for this? He'd been hanging with fellow Slytherins that Lily didn't like. Was Lily supposed to just like what Snape was becoming because he was her first wizard friend? Do you still hang out with every friend you've made in your lifetime, especially the first ones?
You have a point, but I don't know, I feel as though I would have given a friend another chance, but as you say, Snape was hanging around with future Death Eaters who will basically make a living off of killing off people of Lily's blood status.


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  #663  
Old August 17th, 2011, 9:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
You have a point, but I don't know, I feel as though I would have given a friend another chance, but as you say, Snape was hanging around with future Death Eaters who will basically make a living off of killing off people of Lily's blood status.
Say you had a friend, a very good friend. What would be the one thing that this friend could do you that would make you turn around and walk away from him/her? Where would you draw the line between what you could accept and forgive and what would cut the heart out of your body so your friend could stamp on it? That is IMO what Snape did to Lily here. That was why this was his worst memory, Not because of the fight with James and Co. Because he did the unforgivable thing, and he lost the best thing in his life, and he knew he did it, no one else.


  #664  
Old August 17th, 2011, 9:48 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
I see what you mean. I just feel pity for Snape, with him begging Lily to forgive him.
I think if Snape was truly sorry at that time, what he would have done was stop associating with people who looked down on muggles/muggleborns for good. But he still stuck by them. Of course, Snape does repent later on. But at that time, he was not ready to change.


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  #665  
Old August 17th, 2011, 9:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
I see what you mean. I just feel pity for Snape, with him begging Lily to forgive him.
Is he begging her to forgive him? Here is the 'Apology' Scene.

Quote:
The scene changed. . .
“I’m sorry.”
“I’m not interested.”
“I’m sorry!”
“Save your breath.”
It was nighttime. Lily, who was wearing a dressing gown, stood with her
arms folded in front of the portrait of the Fat Lady, at the entrance to Gryffindor Tower.
“I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.”
“I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just—”
“Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve made
excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk
to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends—you see, you don’t
even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?”
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
“I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.”
“No—listen, I didn’t mean—”
“—to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood,
Severus. Why should I be any different?”
JKRowling DEathly Hallows.

Now what i find interesting is that Snape says,
'I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just'
Now Lily finishes it for him, 'Slipped out.' That is why Lily won't forgive him. He isn't saying that he should never have used the word, he should never even have thought the word really, he is saying he didn't mean to call her the foulest insult possible. Lily puts her finger on it. He calls all the other Muggleborns by that name, why is she so different? Well the answer is of course that Snape has feelings for Lily, he doesn't give two hoots for the other Muggleborns. It is this mindset that Lily will not tolerate. She will not be his exception and she wants nothing to do with him and the path he is bound and determined to take. He cannot tell her any different, she knows when he is lying, She knew from there first meeting when he lied. She refuses to have anyting to do with Voldemort and his Death Eaters. The First War is in full swing, Lily knows as well as anyone the Muggleborns are being murdered and that is it. Her line is drawn right there. She will not excuse or forget his bigotry.


  #666  
Old August 17th, 2011, 9:53 pm
JohanT  Undisclosed.gif JohanT is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Oh I stand corrected then. You're right, Snape's evident prejudice against Muggle-borns was still present even though he was in love with one.


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  #667  
Old August 17th, 2011, 9:58 pm
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
Oh I stand corrected then. You're right, Snape's evident prejudice against Muggle-borns was still present even though he was in love with one.
I don't want to correct you. I want...I want you to maybe read a little deeper into the text. If you decide that I have a point, fine. But if you think I'm wrong I want you to defend your point of view, vigorously, Because that is what I will do.


  #668  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:00 pm
JohanT  Undisclosed.gif JohanT is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I don't want to correct you. I want...I want you to maybe read a little deeper into the text. If you decide that I have a point, fine. But if you think I'm wrong I want you to defend your point of view, vigorously, Because that is what I will do.
No, actually I completely agree with you. I did not remember that conversation between them, nor did I remember the proper reason Lily stopped being Snape's friend. It was all kind of fuzzy in my mind. I think it was kind of Lily to come outside to hear Snape out, and I agree with her decision.


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Last edited by JohanT; August 17th, 2011 at 10:03 pm.
  #669  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
No, actually I completely agree with you. I did not remember that conversation between them, nor did I remember the proper reason Lily stopped being Snape's friend. It was all kind of fuzzy in my mind.
That's fine, friends?


  #670  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Ummm topic please? We have private messages.


  #671  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
That's fine, friends?
Friends


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  #672  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
The word was representative IMO of the Death Eater ethos of the genocide and torture of Muggleborn witches and wizards. It meant that Snape bought into the bigotry and thought that the people of Lily's birth were not worthy of living. It was the most terrible betrayel that Snape could have committed and it must have cut Lily's heart out that her best friend thought that she was filth not worthy of living unless he said so.
The DE's were not out to erase the "mudbloods" from the face of the earth. They wanted them to know their "proper place" which was below the "pureblood" wizards. Some of the DE's were genocidal and wanted to terrorize people, absolutely, but they all were not.

Had she been the typical "mudblood" (not Harry's mom) and they held power,the DE's would have kept Lily out of Hogwarts and stopped her from doing magic.

I'm not trying to excuse the DE's or their beliefs. Snape was very wrong to join them. I think he was at a point in his life where he felt powerless and disrespected, and joined them to build himself up. He made a very poor decision and paid for it the rest of his life. But he very clearly did not want Lily to die.


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  #673  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by alwaysme View Post
Ummm topic please? We have private messages.
Sorry about that.


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  #674  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
Sorry about that.
It's fine. I understand you are new to the site.

We just try to keep the focus on the characters as much as possible here. You have a private owlery for chit chat.


  #675  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Snape thought joining the DE's would impress Lily. IMHO, he thought she was so wonderful and outstanding that they would eventually see the same things he saw in her, and would eventually come to see that her lineage didn't matter.

Snape was socially awkward and inept, and did not see the world realistically. Her lineage would have mattered to the DE's. But I think Snape at the time did not see things clearly. And I suspect Lily knew what the DE's were all about and found them offensive.


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  #676  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
The DE's were not out to erase the "mudbloods" from the face of the earth. They wanted them to know their "proper place" which was below the "pureblood" wizards. Some of the DE's were genocidal and wanted to terrorize people, absolutely, but they all were not.
It's stated several times that the DEs were murderers. They did not campaign for "filthy mudbloods" to be oppressed, they murdered people who opposed them. During the first war, people dreaded coming home to find the Dark Mark hovering in the air, and their family murdered inside. People did not celebrate so carelessly, risking the Statute of Secrecy because the DEs disliked Muggleborns, Voldemort was not known as "You-Know-Who" by Snape's fifth year because he made strong speeches against Muggleborns. These people were murderers and torturers.
Some wanted to commit murder and torture, like Bellatrix; some, like Snape, simply did not care who died as long as they got power.

Quote:
Had she been the typical "mudblood" (not Harry's mom) and they held power,the DE's would have kept Lily out of Hogwarts and stopped her from doing magic.
But - Lily was "the typical mudblood"; she was just like everyone else that the DEs considered scum. Should Lily have been okay with being an exception? Should Lily have been grateful that Snape told her she deserved to live and have a magical education? She did not need the permission of a DE or budding DE to be a witch.
These DEs had no right to tell anyone that they did not deserve magic. And they did more than tell people they did not deserve magic - they tortured and murdered.

Quote:
I'm not trying to excuse the DE's or their beliefs. Snape was very wrong to join them. I think he was at a point in his life where he felt powerless and disrespected, and joined them to build himself up. He made a very poor decision and paid for it the rest of his life. But he very clearly did not want Lily to die.
I think Snape was unable to tell the difference between fear and respect, in that case. The DEs were not about respect, they were about fear. The wizarding community lived in fear of these criminals.
Snape did not want Lily to die, but he did not care whose lives were destroyed by the DEs, the people he wanted to join. That's quite clearly shown by his actions in joining the DEs, and in particular, with the prophecy.
IMO, Lily recognised how demeaning it was to be an exception to these prejudices.


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  #677  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:45 pm
SlytherinZolf20  Undisclosed.gif SlytherinZolf20 is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Is he begging her to forgive him? Here is the 'Apology' Scene.

JKRowling DEathly Hallows.

Now what i find interesting is that Snape says,
'I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just'
Now Lily finishes it for him, 'Slipped out.' That is why Lily won't forgive him. He isn't saying that he should never have used the word, he should never even have thought the word really, he is saying he didn't mean to call her the foulest insult possible. Lily puts her finger on it. He calls all the other Muggleborns by that name, why is she so different? Well the answer is of course that Snape has feelings for Lily, he doesn't give two hoots for the other Muggleborns. It is this mindset that Lily will not tolerate. She will not be his exception and she wants nothing to do with him and the path he is bound and determined to take. He cannot tell her any different, she knows when he is lying, She knew from there first meeting when he lied. She refuses to have anyting to do with Voldemort and his Death Eaters. The First War is in full swing, Lily knows as well as anyone the Muggleborns are being murdered and that is it. Her line is drawn right there. She will not excuse or forget his bigotry.
So, do you believe that Snape had redeemed himself at the end of his life for what he said to Lily and did when he was young. Did Snape's years of service for Dumbledore and spying on Voldemort redeem him or did he die a man without redemption and sent to the Wizarding version of Hell if there is one.


  #678  
Old August 17th, 2011, 11:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Having good manners is not dishonest and being polite is not being po-faced.
Having good manners and being polite is not always coming from an honest place, though. Look at Tom Riddle - model student, everyone liked him, but he was something else on the inside. Sometimes the nicest people in the world are also the most ruthless social snipers you'll ever meet, and not very trustworthy or likable when all is said & done. Pettigrew was also a great friend to the Potters, but he turned a spy for Voldemort and he eventually ratted them out.

Quote:
Why would anybody trust someone who was insulting all the time.
In the context of the books? Because Dumbledore trusted him Besides, no one had any clue that he was a spy, and as a spy, Snape couldn't trust anyone anyway. I imagine he (and DD, too for that matter) must have feared another "Pettigrew" in the ranks of the Order - a completely undetected spy working for Voldemort, feeding information back to the other side about everyone - including Snape.

Keeping a cold distance is a mean way to deal with people in a normal life, but during a time of war, as a spy and a key player in the grand scheme of things, maybe keeping a cold distance was just the safest & smartest thing to do. I don't consider being a spy during a time of war as "an excuse" for being distant and impolite with fellow members of the Order & Harry, rather, I think those are just the conditions under which he was living, and the stress of those conditions - to me - do explain his behavior to a great extent.

Quote:
I have truthfully never understood the devaluation of charaters because they don't go around being bad mannered grouches.
I can only speak for myself, but I value all of the characters' contributions to the story. While I rank Snape higher than others, I don't do so because he is a bad mannered grouch. Nor do I rank others lower because they are good mannered & jovial. Everyone is allowed to have their own favorites for their own reasons. To me, what's most important about Snape is what Joyce Millman said in her essay "To Sir, with Love" - it's his internal conflict and choice to side with the Good, that makes him different & special in my eyes.

Still, it's funny you say that, because many who don't like Snape say that positive interpretations of Snape "cheapen his character".

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
But I don't think Snape was ever light-hearted.
And personally, I think it would cheapen his character if his bullying behaviour and dour demeanour was just an act.
This is a very recent comment, but I've read this type of thing more than once in the past. I'm not sure how it all adds up, but it does seem like a double-edged sword to say:

A.) That a positive interpretation cheapens the character, while
B.) The character is not worth much anyway because he is not as warm & friendly as the others.

IMO, behavior (the outward part of a character) is 50% of the picture, with any character (again, I would point to Pettigrew & the young Tom Riddle). The other 50% is motivations (the inner part of a character), and I happen to like Snape for the good that was inside of him.


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  #679  
Old August 17th, 2011, 11:05 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
It's stated several times that the DEs were murderers. They did not campaign for "filthy mudbloods" to be oppressed, they murdered people who opposed them.
They murdered people who opposed them - exactly. [staff edit]. Yes - they murdered and tortured, but their agenda was not to murder all the "mudbloods" - they wanted to subjugate them. They wanted power over them. Murder and torture were a means to an end, although some DEs would have enjoyed that aspect of it, in particular. Bellatrix is one, i think. I don't think Voldemort had any empathy period, and he simply wanted all the power he could get, as well as living forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
But - Lily was "the typical mudblood"; she was just like everyone else that the DEs considered scum. Should Lily have been okay with being an exception? Should Lily have been grateful that Snape told her she deserved to live and have a magical education? She did not need the permission of a DE or budding DE to be a witch.
These DEs had no right to tell anyone that they did not deserve magic. And they did more than tell people they did not deserve magic - they tortured and murdered.
And I have never disagreed with this, personally. The DE's were wrong, of course, as was Snape. The reason Lily was targeted specifically later on, after she had Harry, was because of the prophecy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think Snape was unable to tell the difference between fear and respect, in that case. The DEs were not about respect, they were about fear. The wizarding community lived in fear of these criminals.
While I am not excusing Snape's poor choice, IMHO he was brought up in an abusive and neglectful home and thought his wizarding skills would bring him respect at Hogwarts, but he wasn't respected there, either. He had a very difficult time. He was in Slytherin and met budding DE's who no doubt sold him a story that joining them would bring him the respect he craved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Snape did not want Lily to die, but he did not care whose lives were destroyed by the DEs, the people he wanted to join. That's quite clearly shown by his actions in joining the DEs, and in particular, with the prophecy.
IMO, Lily recognised how demeaning it was to be an exception to these prejudices.
Snape was not particularly concerned at the time with other mudbloods, true enough. I only mention that he did not want her to die to underscore the idea that the DE's main agenda was not to wipe out mudbloods, but to subjugate them. And he had a crazy idea that lily was special and eventually they would see that as well, IMHO. Yes - it was demeaning and she was correct to see it that way.


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Last edited by SusanBones; August 20th, 2011 at 2:21 am. Reason: delete controversial comparison
  #680  
Old August 17th, 2011, 11:23 pm
JohanT  Undisclosed.gif JohanT is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

I was under the impression that Snape joined the Death Eaters because of his love for the Dark Arts as well as his need to be accepted in a group. By joining the Death Eaters, he would be able to hone his abilities in Dark magic, as well as be accepted by a powerful leader who recognized his worth.


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