Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Read-a-Thon: GoF



 
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 9:18 pm
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 5285 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,158
Read-a-Thon: GoF

Since Hes asked for a new thread, and I wanted to reply to it, I am making the new thread.

This thread is designed to discuss the Harry Potter series chapter-by-chapter with others who are reading along. We are currently on Order of the Phoenix, covering Chapters 22-24. Each Tuesday, we will begin discussing the three next chapters (e.g. This Tuesday will begin Chapters 25-27 - I will change the title accordingly) and continue in that cycle until we finish the series.

The last few posts:

xhanax315:    


  Chapter Tweny-Four:

Quote:
He had a bad feeling about this parting; he did not know when they would next see each other and felt that it was incumbent upon him to say something to Sirius to stop him doing anything stupid-
(U.S. Version, page 523) Had Harry not expect to see him during the summer?

Why would Mrs. Weasley disapprove of the two-way mirror?

Why did Harry have difficulty with Occlumency when he could fend off the Imperius curse?

Why was there such tense reaction from Snape when the graveyard scene flashed by?

Did Snape catch the memory of the Sorting Hat suggesting to put Harry in Slytherin house?

Something came up in one of the books I'm reading along with OOTP, so I figured I'd put it in here as well:
Quote:
For all his anti-emotional ranting, Snape certainly reacted to the graveyard image. Why was Snape so pale (can he get any "pale")? Could he have been at the graveyard the night of Voldemort's rebirthing? On her website, Jo let us know that Snape can see Threstrals becase as a Death Eater, he would have "seen things." What atrocites has Snape participated in?
Wizading World Press, page 125
  


ally_xx:    


  Had Harry not expect to see him during the summer?

Because he was constantly worried that Sirius was going to do something reckless and get himself captured.

Why would Mrs. Weasley disapprove of the two-way mirror?

Molly didn't approve of a lot of things. She probably thought Sirius would use the mirror to give Harry details about what was happening at the Order.

Why did Harry have difficulty with Occlumency when he could fend off the Imperius curse?

Probably because his mind is connected with Lord Voldemorts. You can be good at some things and not at others.

Why was there such tense reaction from Snape when the graveyard scene flashed by?

Snape was probably didn't like to see the Dark Lord rising again.

Did Snape catch the memory of the Sorting Hat suggesting to put Harry in Slytherin house?

I don't think so, Harry heard the hat inside his head, Snape can only see the memories. I don't think he could have heard what the Hat was thinking as well. But even if he did, would it really matter?
Quote:
For all his anti-emotional ranting, Snape certainly reacted to the graveyard image. Why was Snape so pale (can he get any "pale")? Could he have been at the graveyard the night of Voldemort's rebirthing? On her website, Jo let us know that Snape can see Threstrals becase as a Death Eater, he would have "seen things." What atrocites has Snape participated in?
When you first became a Death Eater, Voldemort probably made you do cruel things to gain that special honour.
I have no doubt that he got Snape to do something evil. And for all we know, he could have witnessed a family member dying.
  


TreacleTartlet:    


  
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
Why would Mrs. Weasley disapprove of the two-way mirror?
I think Molly thought Sirius wanted to tell Harry too much about the Order and what they were doing. She probably thought he would use the mirror to do so, or to encourage Harry to be reckless and put himself in danger.

Quote:
Why did Harry have difficulty with Occlumency when he could fend off the Imperius curse?
Harry simply wasn't trying, as he wanted to know what was in the corridor in his visions and dreams. Also, JKR said he would never have been good at it because this emotions are too close to the surface.

I have answered the next two questions together as they refer to the same thing.
Quote:
Why was there such tense reaction from Snape when the graveyard scene flashed by?
Quote:
Something came up in one of the books I'm reading along with OOTP, so I figured I'd put it in here as well:
Quote:
For all his anti-emotional ranting, Snape certainly reacted to the graveyard image. Why was Snape so pale (can he g[et any "pale")? Could he have been at the graveyard the night of Voldemort's rebirthing? On her website, Jo let us know that Snape can see Threstrals becase as a Death Eater, he would have "seen things." What atrocites has Snape participated in?
Wizading World Press, page 125
I don't think that it was seeing Cedric's body that caused the reaction from Severus.In that particular group of memories we also see James and Lily in the Mirror of Erised. I always thought that it was the shock of seeing Lily that caused the reaction from Severus turning him pale. I don't expect he ever thought he would see her again so it must have been a huge shock.

OotP, Occlumency

A great black dragon was rearing in front of him... his father and mother were waving at him out of an enchanted mirrror...Cedric Diggory was lying on the ground with blank eyes staring.
  



__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138

Last edited by MrSleepyHead; October 4th, 2011 at 10:27 pm.
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 9:24 pm
Hes's Avatar
Hes  Female.gif Hes is offline
Embroidered by imaginatio
 
Joined: 5443 days
Location: One second out of sync
Age: 38
Posts: 5,979
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Older version can be found here


  #3  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 10:04 pm
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 5285 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,158
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Now that I am not double-posting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315
Why would Mrs. Weasley disapprove of the two-way mirror?
For many reasons, I think. Most importantly, in my opinion, it skirted around all the rules Hogwarts (or, should I say, Umbridge) had implemented, and Harry's use of it would have made him more prone to trouble. Mrs. Weasley is very protective of Harry, and she would not want him to get in trouble for something so easily avoided. Also, the mirrors would allow Sirius to talk safely to Harry and the others, and I do not think Molly liked the idea of Sirius encouraging the trio into further rule-breaking or giving information about the Order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315
Why did Harry have difficulty with Occlumency when he could fend off the Imperius curse?
As TreacleTartlet said, Harry did not try to succeed at Occlumency. With the Imperius Curse, "Moody" forced Harry to keep trying until Harry did succeed. However, JKR did say this:
"The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling;"
Part Two; July 16, 2005
She said to me, "So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories.

Occlumency is tied to the person's emotions, whereas fighting the Imperius Curse is more a question of will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315
Why was there such tense reaction from Snape when the graveyard scene flashed by?
Like TreacleTartlet, I always read Snape's reaction as caused by the sight of Lily, not of Cedric's body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315
Did Snape catch the memory of the Sorting Hat suggesting to put Harry in Slytherin house?
I think he saw Harry with the Sorting Hat, but I do not think he could have known what the Sorting Hat was telling Harry. The Sorting Hat talked to Harry's mind, not verbally, and Snape did not even enter that memory. He just saw it, so even if the Hat verbally expressed its thoughts, Snape would likely have been unable to hear it - he could only se the scenes, as far as I can tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanx315
Something came up in one of the books I'm reading along with OOTP, so I figured I'd put it in here as well:
Referencing ally_xx:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally_xx
When you first became a Death Eater, Voldemort probably made you do cruel things to gain that special honour.
I have no doubt that he got Snape to do something evil. And for all we know, he could have witnessed a family member dying.
I agree. We see Voldemort forcing Draco to do terrible deeds in DH. As I read it, he not only wants to punish Draco, but he wants the "good" in Draco to be forced out by doing evil deeds. I would not be surprised if all Death Eaters go through this.

Also, even if Snape did not commit any murders himself, I think, by being with a group of Death Eaters, he most certainly would have during his tenure.


__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138
  #4  
Old May 24th, 2009, 4:02 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 4370 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 35
Posts: 2,591
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Had Harry not expect to see him during the summer?
I took that as being Harry's instincts, combined with the uncertainty of the times- everyone was in danger.

Quote:
Why would Mrs. Weasley disapprove of the two-way mirror?
As has already been mentioned, I think Molly was concerned about the amount of infomration Sirius was giving the Trio already and would be especially concerned that he would spill more secrets with no-one to hold him back or no risk of letters being intercepted.
Plus, she was worried about what would happen if Umbridge found out.

On that score, why didn't Molly take the opportunity to persuade the gang to stop the DA, once she knew Arthur was going to be okay and while she could speak freely?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Occlumency is tied to the person's emotions, whereas fighting the Imperius Curse is more a question of will.
That makes a lot of sense, I can see how different kinds of mental strength are required for determination and compartmentalising your feelings.

I wonder why Neville was so horrified at the idea of his friends having found out about his parents. Was it becasue he didn't want pity? Or becasue he didn't want to be gossipped about, as Harry was? Or interrogated about it by classmates?

Also, why didn't students raised in the wizarding world already know about the Longbottoms? We are told in GoF that the attack on the Longbottoms caused outrage, just when people had thought it was all over. Plus, we find out in OotP that the Lestranges and co. were almost as notorious as Voldemort himself and wizarding children had grown up hearing their names mentioned fearfully - why then, did the Weasleys and other wizarding kids not know already?

As for Moody's suspicions that Harry was possibly being possessed- was that just typical Moody paranoia? Or had Dumbledore told the Order that Voldemort might try to possess Harry? Seeing as he couldn't very well tell the entire Order about his Horcrux suspicions, was this as close as he would go to the whole truth with them?

I love reading about how happy Sirius was that Christmas -singing carols and decorating the house -it makes me glad that after everything, he had one happy Christmas, with the most important people still in his life -Harry, Remus and to a lesser extent, the Weasleys and Hermione.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
  #5  
Old May 24th, 2009, 6:26 pm
xhanax315's Avatar
xhanax315  Undisclosed.gif xhanax315 is offline
Mrs Gilbert Grape
 
Joined: 5269 days
Location: Surrounded by traitors...
Age: 29
Posts: 2,993
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Wow, a new thread already? I didn't think we'd make it this far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I wonder why Neville was so horrified at the idea of his friends having found out about his parents. Was it becasue he didn't want pity? Or becasue he didn't want to be gossipped about, as Harry was? Or interrogated about it by classmates?
For a second there I thought you had taken the words right out of my notebook for the next question; its a similar question for the next chapter. Anyhow, I believe that it's a mixture of all three. He was already gossiped about because he seemed a bit dim in the begining, so I don't think he would've appreciated the weight of his parents condition to add to it. Also, I don't think he would've liked sharing the details with his classmates, you saw how he reacted when Harry, Ron, and Hermione saw him at St. Mungo's. I don't think pity would've helped much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Also, why didn't students raised in the wizarding world already know about the Longbottoms? We are told in GoF that the attack on the Longbottoms caused outrage, just when people had thought it was all over. Plus, we find out in OotP that the Lestranges and co. were almost as notorious as Voldemort himself and wizarding children had grown up hearing their names mentioned fearfully - why then, did the Weasleys and other wizarding kids not know already?
I think a lot of what happened in the first war was kept among the parents themselves, I don't think a lot of the students knew of the deaths and torturing of people. Look at Ron, he didn't have any idea of the incident. The children probably weren't told for what the Lestranges were guilty of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
As for Moody's suspicions that Harry was possibly being possessed- was that just typical Moody paranoia? Or had Dumbledore told the Order that Voldemort might try to possess Harry? Seeing as he couldn't very well tell the entire Order about his Horcrux suspicions, was this as close as he would go to the whole truth with them?
I think to some extent Dumbledore told them of Harry being posessed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I love reading about how happy Sirius was that Christmas -singing carols and decorating the house -it makes me glad that after everything, he had one happy Christmas, with the most important people still in his life -Harry, Remus and to a lesser extent, the Weasleys and Hermione.
This brought a tear to my eye when you mentioned it.


__________________

Johnny Depp at the Dark Shadows Premiere.
Photo courtesy from twitpik.com
Johnny Depp is my possession, and no one else's, however much they might think so and claim....
  #6  
Old May 24th, 2009, 6:55 pm
Freaky's Avatar
Freaky  Female.gif Freaky is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 5250 days
Location: Mixed weather Devon, UK
Age: 43
Posts: 3,081
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
Anyhow, I believe that it's a mixture of all three. He was already gossiped about because he seemed a bit dim in the begining, so I don't think he would've appreciated the weight of his parents condition to add to it. Also, I don't think he would've liked sharing the details with his classmates, you saw how he reacted when Harry, Ron, and Hermione saw him at St. Mungo's. I don't think pity would've helped much.
I agree with this, but also that he didn't want his parents to receive ridicule. He reacted quite violently when a mad person was acted out, so really feels quite emotional about this, as you'd expect. I think he's quite used to being an object of ridicule, didn't want to add to that, but more so that he wanted to keep his parents out of it too. We know he's proud of them because he tells his grandmother he's not embarrassed by them, and the fact he keeps the sweet wrappers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
I think a lot of what happened in the first war was kept among the parents themselves, I don't think a lot of the students knew of the deaths and torturing of people. Look at Ron, he didn't have any idea of the incident. The children probably weren't told for what the Lestranges were guilty of.
I agree with this. Even though that history was scary, even to them, it's still history. How many of us know the intimate details of our families from World War 2, or even more recent wars? You'd only know the finer details if you were really interested in history, and not many of them seem to be. They all just seem to be concerned about Voldemort, and not really any of his followers.


__________________
Mrs Weasley set the potion down on the bedside cabinet, bent down, and put her arms around Harry. He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother. The full weight of everything he had seen that night seemed to fall in upon him as Mrs Weasley held him to her. His mother's face, his father's voice, the sight of Cedric, dead on the ground, all started spinning in his head until he could hardly bear it, until he was screwing up his face against the howl of misery fighting to get out of him
  #7  
Old May 24th, 2009, 7:06 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5175 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I wonder why Neville was so horrified at the idea of his friends having found out about his parents. Was it becasue he didn't want pity? Or becasue he didn't want to be gossipped about, as Harry was? Or interrogated about it by classmates?
Like xhanax315, I think it was a combination of all three reasons. Also, his parents were insane due to being tortured, and even though I am sure Neville was proud of them, mental illness carries a stigma and can be embarrasing for family members of those who suffer. So, although Harry, Ron and Hermione would be sympathetic, if it became general knowledge, well, kids can be cruel.

Quote:
Also, why didn't students raised in the wizarding world already know about the Longbottoms?
Again, I agree with xhanax315! I don't think such things were probably talked about in general, or discussed with the children.


  #8  
Old May 24th, 2009, 7:55 pm
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 5285 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,158
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Some of my own notes from these three chapters:

  • OotP, Ch. 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Page 480, American, HB"They might not have found Arthur for hours, and then it would have been too late, but thanks to you he's alive and Dumbledore's been able to think up a good cover story for Arthur being where he was, you've no idea what trouble he would have been in otherwise, look at poor Sturgis..."

    What cover story did Dumbledore "think up"? Lucius found it odd that Arthur was down by the Department of Mysteries corridor on the day of Harry's hearing. What excuse could Dumbledore give Arthur for being down by the Department of Mysteries?
    Perhaps that Arthur was working late and heard a commotion downstairs. After all, Everard's portrait "said [he'd] heard something moving downstairs". Could Mr. Weasley have used the same excuse, claiming he heard the snake?
  • When talking about St. Mungo's, Moody says "Theory was sick wizards could come and go and just blend in with the crowd..." (Page 482).
    How is this possible, when we see that, under normal circumstances, wizards dressing like Muggles immediately draw attention? When that appearance is combined with, for instance, a girl who sprouted wings or a man clanging like a bell, how could wizards "just blend in with the crowd"? The only explanation I can think of is that Londoners may be too busy to see the wizards, or else Muggle's just don't look properly, like with the Knight Bus.
  • On page 489, Fred says, "When you say you were 'on duty'..." However, Mr. Weasley never said he was "on duty" - he explains he "had a very long day, dozed off, got sneaked up on, and bitten."
    Is Fred just referencing what Dumbledore said? "Your father has been injured in the course of his work for the Order of the Phoenix..." (Page 473).

  • OotP, Ch. 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Page 479, American, HB"Breakfast!" said Sirius loudly and joyfully, jumping to his feet. "Where's that accursed house-elf? Kreacher! KREACHER!"
    But Kreacher did not answer the summons.

    How could Kreacher disobey a direct order to come to Sirius? I suppose he could have found a loophole with Sirius just calling his name, but I find it difficult to believe Kreacher can deliberately disobey such a clear order.

  • OotP, Ch. 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward, Page 507, American, HB"Do you mean to tell me," said Mrs. Weasley, her voice growing louder with every word and apparently unaware that her fellow visitors were scurrying for cover...

    We know Lupin went to talk to the werewolf; Bill, Fred, and George went to get tea; and Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Ginny also went to tea. However, where did Moody go, who also visited Mr. Weasley?
  • Lockhart's memory was erased, so were his portraits' memories also obliviated?
    OotP, Ch. 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward, Page 511, American, HB...the wall around Gilderoy's headboard, for instance, was papered with pictures of himself, all beaming toothily and waving at the new arrivals.

    I would assume they also had their memories addled, but, since they were painted before the real Lockhart's memory was erased.
  • Why was the Department of Mysteries door locked when Sturgis Podmore was trying to get through? We know that Harry's dreams always prevented him from going through the door, but eventually the door opened in his dreams. Why would the door have been locked earlier in the book, but then become unlocked?


__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138
  #9  
Old May 24th, 2009, 8:26 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5175 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
OotP, Ch. 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Page 480, American, HB"They might not have found Arthur for hours, and then it would have been too late, but thanks to you he's alive and Dumbledore's been able to think up a good cover story for Arthur being where he was, you've no idea what trouble he would have been in otherwise, look at poor Sturgis..."

What cover story did Dumbledore "think up"? Lucius found it odd that Arthur was down by the Department of Mysteries corridor on the day of Harry's hearing. What excuse could Dumbledore give Arthur for being down by the Department of Mysteries?

Perhaps that Arthur was working late and heard a commotion downstairs. After all, Everard's portrait "said [he'd] heard something moving downstairs". Could Mr. Weasley have used the same excuse, claiming he heard the snake.
Yep, I'd go along with that as a possible cover story.

Quote:
OotP, Ch. 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Page 479, American, HB"Breakfast!" said Sirius loudly and joyfully, jumping to his feet. "Where's that accursed house-elf? Kreacher! KREACHER!"
But Kreacher did not answer the summons.

How could Kreacher disobey a direct order to come to Sirius? I suppose he could have found a loophole with Sirius just calling his name, but I find it difficult to believe Kreacher can deliberately disobey such a clear order.[/list][list][*]
Dumbledore later explains (The Lost Prophesy) that the night that Harry sees Arthur bitten by Nagini, Kreacher took advantage of being ordered 'OUT' by Sirius and visits Narcissa. Harry tells Sirius that he hasn't seen Kreacher since that night and one seems to have seen him, so I think he was still at the Malfoy's.


  #10  
Old May 24th, 2009, 8:30 pm
hpfan795  Male.gif hpfan795 is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3885 days
Location: Godrics Hollow
Posts: 439
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Dumbledore later explains (The Lost Prophesy) that the night that Harry sees Arthur bitten by Nagini, Kreacher took advantage of being ordered 'OUT' by Sirius and visits Narcissa. Harry tells Sirius that he hasn't seen Kreacher since that night and one seems to have seen him, so I think he was still at the Malfoy's.
Kreacher could have left anyway though, notice how Dobby left in COS...


  #11  
Old May 24th, 2009, 9:37 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 4370 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 35
Posts: 2,591
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
This brought a tear to my eye when you mentioned it.
Sorry. Know what you mean, though, that always gets to me, it's one of the few bright spots in OotP.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
  • When talking about St. Mungo's, Moody says "Theory was sick wizards could come and go and just blend in with the crowd..." (Page 482).
    How is this possible, when we see that, under normal circumstances, wizards dressing like Muggles immediately draw attention? When that appearance is combined with, for instance, a girl who sprouted wings or a man clanging like a bell, how could wizards "just blend in with the crowd"? The only explanation I can think of is that Londoners may be too busy to see the wizards, or else Muggle's just don't look properly, like with the Knight Bus.
I'm thinking the same way Muggles don't notice people disappearing through solid walls or bursting out from them, for that matter. There may be some kind of spell or charm in the vicinity of St. Mungos to prevent Muggles from noticing anything unusual.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
OotP, Ch. 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, Page 479, American, HB"Breakfast!" said Sirius loudly and joyfully, jumping to his feet. "Where's that accursed house-elf? Kreacher! KREACHER!"
But Kreacher did not answer the summons.

How could Kreacher disobey a direct order to come to Sirius? I suppose he could have found a loophole with Sirius just calling his name, but I find it difficult to believe Kreacher can deliberately disobey such a clear order.[/list][list][*]
Maybe he had to punish himself afterwards for not answering the call. Dobby left Malfoy Manor without permission but would have to punish himself when he returned. Also, Kreacher had to obey any member of the Black family- perhaps Kreacher told Narcissa or Bellatrix he was being summoned and they gave him the opposite order, to stay until they had more information. Might be his loophole.


Quote:
  • Why was the Department of Mysteries door locked when Sturgis Podmore was trying to get through? We know that Harry's dreams always prevented him from going through the door, but eventually the door opened in his dreams. Why would the door have been locked earlier in the book, but then become unlocked?
I would imagine it wasn't actually opened in reality, but Voldemort was visualising what was in there and so the door was opened in the dream.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
  #12  
Old May 25th, 2009, 12:07 am
xhanax315's Avatar
xhanax315  Undisclosed.gif xhanax315 is offline
Mrs Gilbert Grape
 
Joined: 5269 days
Location: Surrounded by traitors...
Age: 29
Posts: 2,993
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

[quote=MrSleepyHead;5310460]Some of my own notes from these three chapters:

OotP, Ch. 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward, Page 507, American, HB"Do you mean to tell me," said Mrs. Weasley, her voice growing louder with every word and apparently unaware that her fellow visitors were scurrying for cover...
  • We know Lupin went to talk to the werewolf; Bill, Fred, and George went to get tea; and Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Ginny also went to tea. However, where did Moody go, who also visited Mr. Weasley?[\quote]
I would have thought that Moody had stayed to visit Mr. Weasley as well. Perhaps he just sank in the shadows while Mrs. Weasley was discussing Mr. Weasley's stitches.


[quote=MrSleepyHead;5310460]
  • Lockhart's memory was erased, so were his portraits' memories also obliviated?
    OotP, Ch. 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward, Page 511, American, HB...the wall around Gilderoy's headboard, for instance, was papered with pictures of himself, all beaming toothily and waving at the new arrivals.

    I would assume they also had their memories addled, but, since they were painted before the real Lockhart's memory was erased.[\quote]
Hmm....I had not thought about this before. It would seem as though the portraits would keep their memories, but what happened to all his portraits after his removal from Hogwarts? Were they there at St. Mungo's? How much would the portraits help in regaining his memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
  • Why was the Department of Mysteries door locked when Sturgis Podmore was trying to get through? We know that Harry's dreams always prevented him from going through the door, but eventually the door opened in his dreams. Why would the door have been locked earlier in the book, but then become unlocked?
Hmm....I would think that before the door became unlocked, that's how Voldemort had seen it, and it was relayed to Harry that way. I think after he figured out how to get through the door was when the door happened to opened for Harry, but was as refrained from going in as Harry was.


[quote=FurryDice;5310523]

I'm thinking the same way Muggles don't notice people disappearing through solid walls or bursting out from them, for that matter. There may be some kind of spell or charm in the vicinity of St. Mungos to prevent Muggles from noticing anything unusual.[\quote]

This is how I imagined it worked with wizards coming in and out of St. Mungo's.


__________________

Johnny Depp at the Dark Shadows Premiere.
Photo courtesy from twitpik.com
Johnny Depp is my possession, and no one else's, however much they might think so and claim....
  #13  
Old May 25th, 2009, 4:01 am
HedwigOwl's Avatar
HedwigOwl  Female.gif HedwigOwl is offline
Curse Breaker
 
Joined: 5578 days
Location: Surfing a Probability Wave
Posts: 6,970
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
OotP, Ch. 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward, Page 511, American, HB...the wall around Gilderoy's headboard, for instance, was papered with pictures of himself, all beaming toothily and waving at the new arrivals.

I would assume they also had their memories addled, but, since they were painted before the real Lockhart's memory was erased.
I'd assume their memories were the same sad state as Lockhart's. It seems the portrait ends up with the memories the deceased had at the end of their life. On the bright side, he didn't remember the people he'd cheated or done in while taking credit for their discoveries/deeds. Maybe he'll end up a better, though still vain, person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead
Why was the Department of Mysteries door locked when Sturgis Podmore was trying to get through? We know that Harry's dreams always prevented him from going through the door, but eventually the door opened in his dreams. Why would the door have been locked earlier in the book, but then become unlocked?
Was the door locked, or did Sturgis just get caught before he could get in?

As far as Harry's inability to get through the door.....though Harry was really seeing what Voldemort was thinking about, it's not the same as actually seeing through Voldemort's eyes as in the incident with Mr. Weasley, or when Frank was murdered at the Riddle house. Voldemort's not actually at the the DoM, just thinking that he needed to get the prophecy but also knowing he couldn't actually go after it himself because of the aurors. So Voldy wouldn't be thinking of getting through the door himself, although the DoM was on his mind, so that's what Harry saw -- a closed door that he can't go through. Later, when the door opens for Harry, I think that's Voldemort putting the idea into Harry's head so Harry would be curious & want to go to the DoM. When that didn't work, he had the DE's get involved and gave Harry the false "vision" of Sirius being tortured at the DoM.


__________________
http://www.cosforums.com/images/img/401694897da473df47.png[/img]
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff...

....I miss David Tennant....
  #14  
Old May 25th, 2009, 4:19 am
xhanax315's Avatar
xhanax315  Undisclosed.gif xhanax315 is offline
Mrs Gilbert Grape
 
Joined: 5269 days
Location: Surrounded by traitors...
Age: 29
Posts: 2,993
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
I'd assume their memories were the same sad state as Lockhart's. It seems the portrait ends up with the memories the deceased had at the end of their life. On the bright side, he didn't remember the people he'd cheated or done in while taking credit for their discoveries/deeds. Maybe he'll end up a better, though still vain, person.
Well, Lockhart's not really considered dead when he's in St. Mungo's so I wouldn't think that the pictures would lose their memories as well. The pictures didn't look like they had changed much:

Quote:
...the wall around Gilderoy's headboard, for instance, was papered with pictures of himself, all beaming toothily and waving at the new arrivals.
Order of the Phoenix, U.S. Version, page 511


__________________

Johnny Depp at the Dark Shadows Premiere.
Photo courtesy from twitpik.com
Johnny Depp is my possession, and no one else's, however much they might think so and claim....
  #15  
Old May 25th, 2009, 4:32 am
HedwigOwl's Avatar
HedwigOwl  Female.gif HedwigOwl is offline
Curse Breaker
 
Joined: 5578 days
Location: Surfing a Probability Wave
Posts: 6,970
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
Well, Lockhart's not really considered dead when he's in St. Mungo's so I wouldn't think that the pictures would lose their memories as well. The pictures didn't look like they had changed much:


Quote:
...the wall around Gilderoy's headboard, for instance, was papered with pictures of himself, all beaming toothily and waving at the new arrivals.

Order of the Phoenix, U.S. Version, page 511
Yes, but even in Lockhart's memory-deprived state, he also acted that way, so it would be an accurate current depiction of his pictures:
OotP, page 508
A man was peering out at them with his nose pressed against the glass. He had wavy blond hair, bright blue eyes, and a broad vacant smile that revealed dazzlingly white teeth.


__________________
http://www.cosforums.com/images/img/401694897da473df47.png[/img]
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff...

....I miss David Tennant....
  #16  
Old May 25th, 2009, 4:34 am
witchsmart's Avatar
witchsmart  Female.gif witchsmart is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 4806 days
Location: The Library
Age: 27
Posts: 1,418
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
Hmm....I had not thought about this before. It would seem as though the portraits would keep their memories, but what happened to all his portraits after his removal from Hogwarts? Were they there at St. Mungo's? How much would the portraits help in regaining his memory?
Even if they had retained their memories, I don't believe the photographs would be much help to Lockhart since, as we've seen, photographs don't talk, they only wave at real people in a fashion characteristic of their real selves. So all Lockhart's pictures would have shown him is that he was a very confident, happy person, which he has retained in his personality.


__________________

Twins on a Train
Working With the Weasleys
No Chance
Runaway

Proud member of OFINOA (Obsessed Fans In Need Of Avatar)
  #17  
Old May 25th, 2009, 5:42 am
horcrux4's Avatar
horcrux4  Female.gif horcrux4 is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5136 days
Location: Sheffield UK
Age: 74
Posts: 2,167
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

I suppose this is the difference between paintings and photographs. Paintings can talk, give opinions, carry out tasks etc. Photos just wave at you, move in and out of shot, and so on. So I don't think the photos of Lockhart would have had memories anyway.


__________________
Meet Mickey, my new kitten!
Quote:
"From this time forth we shall be leaving the firm foundation of fact and journeying together through the murky marshes of memory into thickets of wildest guesswork."
Albus Dumbledore, HBP
  #18  
Old May 25th, 2009, 6:37 am
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 5285 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,158
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
Dumbledore later explains (The Lost Prophesy) that the night that Harry sees Arthur bitten by Nagini, Kreacher took advantage of being ordered 'OUT' by Sirius and visits Narcissa. Harry tells Sirius that he hasn't seen Kreacher since that night and one seems to have seen him, so I think he was still at the Malfoy's.
Certainly, but how could Kreacher ignore a direct summons? I do believe Kreacher could have found a loophole that Sirius just shouted his name, not actually summoning him, but when Harry wonders how to summon a Kreacher in HBP, he just says Kreacher's name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I'm thinking the same way Muggles don't notice people disappearing through solid walls or bursting out from them, for that matter. There may be some kind of spell or charm in the vicinity of St. Mungos to prevent Muggles from noticing anything unusual.
That is a good comparison. I always thought disappearing into the glass of Purge and Dowse Ltd. had a similar "enchantment" to King's Cross, but I had not thought of the entire street being enchanted in that manner. I agree that some charm may be placed around the area to convince Muggles that the incoming wizards are not there, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
Maybe he had to punish himself afterwards for not answering the call. Dobby left Malfoy Manor without permission but would have to punish himself when he returned. Also, Kreacher had to obey any member of the Black family- perhaps Kreacher told Narcissa or Bellatrix he was being summoned and they gave him the opposite order, to stay until they had more information. Might be his loophole.
I certainly believe Kreacher had to punish himself afterward. Dobby punished himself for leaving without being ordered. Kreacher disobeyed a fairly clear summons, as I see it, so I would imagine his punishment would be more severe.

It is possible that Narcissa or Bellatrix told Kreacher to stay when being summoned - Sirius says that Kreacher is "supposed to do whatever anyone in the family asks him..." However, I think Sirius' orders had more influence on Kreacher, since Sirius was the actual owner (the "true master," if you will) of Kreacher, through inheritance.* Thus, I find it difficult to believe Narcissa or Bellatrix could order Kreacher to disobey one of Sirius' orders - otherwise, Kreacher could have told them almost everything about the Order of the Phoenix (save for the things prohibited by the Fidelius Charm).
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I would imagine it wasn't actually opened in reality, but Voldemort was visualising what was in there and so the door was opened in the dream.
I always read it this way as well. The door only opened once Voldemort had discovered what laid beyond - the same is true for when the door to the Hall of Prophecy is open. However, why would the door be locked for Sturgis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl
Was the door locked, or did Sturgis just get caught before he could get in?
Here is an excerpt from the Daily Prophet article:
OotP, Ch. 14, Percy and Padfoot, Page 287, American, HB...the Wizengamot charged him with trespass and attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on 31st August. Podmore was arrested by Ministry of Magic watchwizard Eric Munch, who found him attempting to force his way through a top-security door at one o'clock in the morning.

Assuming the Department of Mysteries door normally just swings open, I am stymied as to why Sturgis had to "force his way through" the door - unless the Prophet and the Ministry are bolstering Sturgis' crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl
So Voldy wouldn't be thinking of getting through the door himself, although the DoM was on his mind, so that's what Harry saw -- a closed door that he can't go through. Later, when the door opens for Harry, I think that's Voldemort putting the idea into Harry's head so Harry would be curious & want to go to the DoM. When that didn't work, he had the DE's get involved and gave Harry the false "vision" of Sirius being tortured at the DoM.
This is also very plausible, since Lucius was telling Harry how Voldemort "wondered why [Harry] didn't come running when he showed you the place where it [the prophecy] was hidden in your dreams." I also think, though, that Voldemort did not know what lay beyond the door to the Department of Mysteries at first, though, as well as the exact location of the Hall of Prophecy. This is why he would need to possess Nagini, as I see it, to find out what lay beyond, and only then could he implant the image of the Hall of Prophecy into Harry's mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by witchsmart
Even if they had retained their memories, I don't believe the photographs would be much help to Lockhart since, as we've seen, photographs don't talk, they only wave at real people in a fashion characteristic of their real selves. So all Lockhart's pictures would have shown him is that he was a very confident, happy person, which he has retained in his personality.
This is true - I misremembered. I thought Lockhart's pictures were portraits/paintings, but in CoS they are noted as photographs hanging on his office walls. To me, that should mean that the pictures over Gilderoy's bed in the ward would also be memory-addled, since photographs seem to reflect the current state of those in the picture (e.g. Percy walking out of the Weasley photograph).

However, would this mean that all of Lockhart's books would now show a Lockhart with a feeble, weaker smile? Or is there some time constraint on which photographs (taken at a certain date) will continue to reflect the individual's current mental state?

To me, it seems odd that all photographs of Lockhart would suddenly have the feeble grin caused by an erased memory, since the purpose of photographs are more or less to capture a moment in time. Certainly, wizarding photographs have exceptions, but I still believe they largely have similar intents.


__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138
  #19  
Old May 25th, 2009, 6:49 am
witchsmart's Avatar
witchsmart  Female.gif witchsmart is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 4806 days
Location: The Library
Age: 27
Posts: 1,418
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I always read it this way as well. The door only opened once Voldemort had discovered what laid beyond - the same is true for when the door to the Hall of Prophecy is open. However, why would the door be locked for Sturgis?
My guess is because the Death Eaters were already inside, and left it open so that Harry would not be detered as he tried to find Sirius. Why there wasn't a member of the Order guarding the Department of Mysteries . . .

Quote:
However, would this mean that all of Lockhart's books would now show a Lockhart with a feeble, weaker smile? Or is there some time constraint on which photographs (taken at a certain date) will continue to reflect the individual's current mental state?
I think they would reflect a person's personality more so than their current mental state. Even without his memory, Lockhart was still a very self-confident, overly-cheerful person, and so this is how his photographs acted. As for Percy, when he turned away from his family his personality became reserved, business-like and hostile toward his family, and thus this was reflected in his photographic-self. Along the same track, emotions are probably reflected in wizarding photos as well.


__________________

Twins on a Train
Working With the Weasleys
No Chance
Runaway

Proud member of OFINOA (Obsessed Fans In Need Of Avatar)
  #20  
Old May 25th, 2009, 3:37 pm
horcrux4's Avatar
horcrux4  Female.gif horcrux4 is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5136 days
Location: Sheffield UK
Age: 74
Posts: 2,167
Re: Read-a-Thon: OotP Ch. 22-24

I'm not sure how the door to the department of Mysteries was opened at all. If Sturgis couldn't get through (assuming that was the "high security door" he was attempting) how did the DEs do it? I'm assuming here that the DEs had opened it before Harry & Co got there as Harry wouldn't have known how to get in. Did you have to be an Unspeakable to enter? If so, did the DEs have a turncoat Unspeakable with them? And what was Sturgis' position anyway?


__________________
Meet Mickey, my new kitten!
Quote:
"From this time forth we shall be leaving the firm foundation of fact and journeying together through the murky marshes of memory into thickets of wildest guesswork."
Albus Dumbledore, HBP
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:00 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.