Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Cloak > The Tales of Beedle the Bard

DH Symbol on the Fountain



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old December 10th, 2008, 2:39 am
Jack5555's Avatar
Jack5555  Male.gif Jack5555 is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 4527 days
Posts: 1,156
DH Symbol on the Fountain

What was Jo's point of putting the DH symbol on the Fountain picture? I really don't understand how TFoFF relates to death.


__________________
“These are dark times, there is no denying. Our world has perhaps faced no greater threat than it does today. But I say this, to our citizenry: WE, ever your servants, will continue to defend your liberty and repel the forces that seek to take it from you! Your Ministry, remains, strong!”
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old December 10th, 2008, 2:43 am
Voldemorts8thHorcrux's Avatar
Voldemorts8thHorcrux  Female.gif Voldemorts8thHorcrux is offline
Secret Keeper
 
Joined: 4986 days
Location: just took over world,on throne
Age: 25
Posts: 5,710
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

I kind of think that it is because the DH symbol does not symbolize just death, but is kind of like Nirvana in Buddhism, achieving peace of mind. The Third Brother and Harry all understood that things like death happen and were wise and didn't try to stop the inevitable. So basically I think i means that the Fountain partly symbolizes feeling good about yourself and just letting things happen. A kind of go with the flow kind of thing.


__________________


Official Member of the Jacq Triumvirate

My Deviantart Account

Voldemort Feels Pretty, My animated music video for "I feel Pretty" Featuring LORD VOLDEMORT!

My original story: Teeter Totter (Has absolutely nothing to do with playgrounds)


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old December 11th, 2008, 4:55 pm
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 5285 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,158
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

This is the most alluring aspect of the illustrations, and perhaps the book, in my opinion. As I see it, the symbol is only known to Questers as that of the Deathly Hallows. As Voldemorts8thHorcrux elucidates, the symbol could be understood by others with a different meaning. However, why did JKR include this rune in this particular illustration? From DH, Hermione only notices the symbol twice that we know of, above the title of the Tale of the Three Brothers and on Ignotus' tombstone. The inclusion of the rune does not appear to be canon-based, but I do not believe the copies of the book are, either (there are not runes above each of the titles, for instance). However, it is interesting to wonder if the Fountain of Fair Fortune has any impact on the Questers' belief in the Deathly Hallows, if it is understood by another meaning, or both. If so, how does it impact the belief in the Hallows? It is difficult for me to believe JKR included the symbol in this illustration if it is not related to something we know (the Hallows).


__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138

Last edited by MrSleepyHead; February 14th, 2009 at 10:03 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old December 13th, 2008, 4:04 pm
capella_black's Avatar
capella_black  Female.gif capella_black is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4917 days
Age: 36
Posts: 793
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

There are a bunch of other symbols on the fountain, most of which seem to be co-opted from somewhere else. Maybe it would have just felt weird to her to put all these other 'runes' on there and not put the all important Hallows rune?


__________________


I met J. K. Rowling!



She said you should read my fanfics:
Sirius Black and the Drapery of DoomThe Werewolf Prank (by capella_black and Arithmancer)
Regulus Kills Again (One-shot)Lily Evans and the Golden Lyre

Pottermore: CatSnitch Black walnut with phoenix feather core, eleven inches, unyielding
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old December 14th, 2008, 12:39 am
PureBloodGirl  Female.gif PureBloodGirl is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 4288 days
Location: Imprisoned by Tibsy, HELP ME!
Age: 24
Posts: 1,906
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

I didn't notice the symbol on there until you pointed it out. There are some other symbols on there too. I wonder what they all mean.


Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old December 14th, 2008, 10:27 am
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5175 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl View Post
I didn't notice the symbol on there until you pointed it out. There are some other symbols on there too. I wonder what they all mean.
Some of the other symbols seen on the fountain are astrological symbols, also used in alchemy.There are also other symbols, such as the Greek letter Omega and the All Seeing -Eye.

They read, from the top of the fountain to bottom:

Mars
Sun and Moon combined

Jupiter
Omega

Mercury
All seeing eye

Saturn
Hallows sign


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_symbols

Quote:
Mars: Drive/aim/force (arrow) over divine spirit (circle)
Sun: Divine spirit (circle) surrounding seed of potential
Moon: Mind or evolving human spirit (crescent)
Jupiter: Mind (crescent) rising above the horizon of matter (cross)
Mercury: Mind (crescent) poised over divine spirit (circle) and matter (cross)
Saturn:Matter (cross) taking precedence over mind or human spirit (crescent)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega

Quote:
Omega: Ω
Omega (the last letter of the Greek alphabet) is often used to denote the last, the end, or the ultimate limit of a set, in contrast to Alpha, the first letter of the Greek alphabet. In the New Testament book of Revelation, God is declared to be the "alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"...
...The word literally means "great O" (ō mega, mega meaning 'great'), as opposed to Omicron, which means "little O" (o mikron, micron meaning "little").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

Quote:
All Seeing Eye:
The Eye of Providence or the all-seeing eye is a symbol showing an eye surrounded by rays of light or a glory, and usually enclosed by a triangle. It is sometimes interpreted as representing the eye of God keeping watch on humankind (see Divine Providence)....

In its current form, the symbol first appeared in the west during the 17th & 18th centuries, but representations of an all-seeing eye can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Eye of Horus.....

United States
In 1782 the Eye of Providence was adopted as part of the symbolism on the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States.

Freemasonary
The Eye of Providence also appears as part of the iconography of the Freemasons. Here it represents the all-seeing eye of God, and is then a reminder that a Mason's deeds are always observed by God (who is referred to in Masonry as the Grand Architect of the Universe).


Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old December 14th, 2008, 4:26 pm
Voldemorts8thHorcrux's Avatar
Voldemorts8thHorcrux  Female.gif Voldemorts8thHorcrux is offline
Secret Keeper
 
Joined: 4986 days
Location: just took over world,on throne
Age: 25
Posts: 5,710
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

hmm that's pretty interesting



__________________


Official Member of the Jacq Triumvirate

My Deviantart Account

Voldemort Feels Pretty, My animated music video for "I feel Pretty" Featuring LORD VOLDEMORT!

My original story: Teeter Totter (Has absolutely nothing to do with playgrounds)


Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old December 14th, 2008, 8:36 pm
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5175 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

I think the pairing up of the glyph representing Saturn with the Hallows Symbol seems to make some sense.
I see this as representing the foolishness of the Hallows quest. Or, like the Peverell brothers attempt to gain immortality. In essence,the desire for matter over spirit, as represented by Saturn.
Saturn (matter taking precedence over mind or human spirit)

As, Dumbledore wisely put it. ' You know the Stone was really not such a wonderful thing. As much money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings would choose above all - the trouble is humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things which are worst for them.'


Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old December 14th, 2008, 8:47 pm
JJFinch's Avatar
JJFinch  Female.gif JJFinch is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4694 days
Location: Cornwall, England
Age: 28
Posts: 834
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

I hadn't noticed that either until I saw this thread! Perhaps Jo felt it was necessary to put some tiny clue in the illustrations which would explain why DH-Devotees such as Xeno Lovegood felt they had been left clues by Beedle? It's also interesting to note that tha fountain is in the shap of a dragon - what's the significance of that I wonder? Perhaps all these symbols are just supposed to show the magic that the fountain is meant to contain. Also bear in mind that these drawings probably started off as mere doodles.


__________________


"Six years ter the day since we met, Harry, d'yeh remember it?"
"Vaguely...didn't you smash down the front door, give Dudley a pig's tail and tell me I was a wizard?"
"I forge' the details."

Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old December 15th, 2008, 1:43 am
Beav58  Female.gif Beav58 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4022 days
Location: Seattle, WA
Age: 36
Posts: 7
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

I don't think the symbol on the fountain was in any way a mistake or to represent anything different from the symbol in the Three Brothers story. It just may give the symbol extra meaning. I do believe there are a lot of similarities between the Three Brothers story and the Fountain story. Its hard to explain, but they seem to have a lot of similarities.

Both involved 4 main characters, usually a group of three with a fourth character that didn't quite belong. Its obvious with the three brothers and death. For the fountain, it was the three women and the knight just sort of tagged along. Both were attempting to obtain something greater than what thought was humanly possible. The brothers with being masters of death. The Fountain story had unnatural luck. Both stories ended in saying something that the power has always been from within, not from some external source. It just seems to be the same life lesson overall. That it is within your own grasp to make your own power/luck from within.

With the three women, by the end of their journey they had worked to find the answers to their own problems. The Knight found he already had what he needed. In the Three Brothers story, the first two bothers failed to understand that lesson, and fell to death at a young age, whereas the third bother understood that and simply wanted to live a happy normal life instead of seeking power beyond himself.

In Harry Potter, it was sort of the same idea too. That Voldemort was weak because you relied on an external object to find her strength, whether it was the Elder wand or even the horcruxes. Whereas Harry Potter beat Voldemort by giving into the natural laws and found the power from within. Maybe the symbol was made to symbolize that lesson or that form of power, simply based on the lessons both stories represented.

I know it may be a bit of a stretch, but I doubt JKR would have put the deathly hallows symbol there for nothing. After how large of a role it played in the HP7, it isn't an accident. There has to be some kind of a connection.



Last edited by Beav58; December 15th, 2008 at 1:52 am.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old December 27th, 2008, 3:35 pm
Fury's Avatar
Fury  Male.gif Fury is offline
Registered Animagus
 
Joined: 5546 days
Location: Hogwarts Grounds
Age: 36
Posts: 4,801
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

Not realizing there was a whole thread about this, I put a bit of speculation in the actual Fountain of Fair Fortune thread.

Quote:
I also have to wonder why there is the Deathly Hallows mark on the fountain. Did a Hallow Hunter just happen to come across the fountain, and in his obsession mark the fountain with the mark itself? Or is the fountain itself connected to the Deathly Hallows?
Now that I have been thinking for a bit, I think it is the first one. I think it was something that happened in the wizarding world. I don't think JK Rowling would have just randomly wanted the sign on the fountain. Unless you go by what Beav58 (which is very nicely put) has, there is no real connection to the Deathly Hallows (Tale of Three Brothers) story.

The original marking Hermione found in the book (Above the Tale of the Three Brothers) apparently wasn't put in the book to begin with. We know the book was Albus Dumbledore's apparently, because it was given to Hermione from him. So he might have put it there.

But there is really absolutely no reason (unless Beedle the Bard himself was a Hallow Hunter) for the mark to be at the fountain when it was made. So yes, I like to think it was put there (on the original fountain in other words) by a Hallow Hunter.


__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old December 27th, 2008, 10:02 pm
Murzim's Avatar
Murzim  Female.gif Murzim is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 5295 days
Location: Canis major close to Sirius
Age: 49
Posts: 1,237
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

IMO the pictures in Beedle the Bard (the wizarding version) were made by an un-enlightened artist who put all mysterious symbols (s)he could think of on the fountain. It was treated as a children’s book for generations so I think it likely Beedles stories were kept but different editions had different illustrations matching the taste of the time. It’s what you see with Muggle fairy tales.
The symbol heading The Tale of the Three Brothers in Hermione's/Dumbledore's version was according to Hermione handwritten, it was not put there by the illustrator. I think it unlikely that the illustrator of that version had any idea what the mysterious symbol he depicted on the fountain meant or that it was connected with The Tale of the Three Brothers.

Another possible explanation is, that Hermione deliberately wanted the symbol on the fountain. The fountain, according to the story, doesn't have real power. Maybe she wanted people to think that the Hallows were as useless as the fountains water, or that the Hallows were just a myth like the fountain. Harry and IMO Hermione has no interest to increase the number of people believing in the Hallows.


Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old December 31st, 2008, 8:18 am
SilverQueen  Female.gif SilverQueen is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 5460 days
Location: Onstage
Age: 31
Posts: 134
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

All of the symbols seem to be pointing towards a meaning of mission accomplished, goal achieved, completion of the quest. Enlightenment too perhaps. Which is interesting, since the four seekers did not set out to find what they found, and never realized the truth of the fountain...but that, I suppose, is the point.

And who knows, maybe JKR has assigned all of these symbols special meanings in the Wizarding World that we don't know about because she hasn't published a rune dictionary yet.


__________________
WADA
Wizarding Academy of Dramatic Arts
Second Year


"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old January 4th, 2009, 9:39 pm
RemusLupinFan's Avatar
RemusLupinFan  Female.gif RemusLupinFan is offline
I want to believe
 
Joined: 5681 days
Location: The office in the basement
Posts: 5,897
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

I didn't notice the symbol either until I saw this - I wasn't paying that much attention to the drawings. I'm not sure there really is a significance. I figure that the symbol was on there because it was a very old and mysterious wizarding rune like the other runes on the fountain. But it is interesting that the symbol shows up somewhere other than in the Tale of the Three Brothers.


__________________

X-Files is the property of Ten Thirteen Productions, 20th Century Fox
WolfCloak30 Pottermore
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old March 12th, 2009, 12:43 am
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 5285 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,158
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJFinch
Also bear in mind that these drawings probably started off as mere doodles.
I find the suggestion that JKR put the Deathly Hallows symbol on the Fountain of Fair Fortune purely for the fun of it slightly improbable and unlike the Harry Potter fandom. With the cover releases of each of the books, not one detail was left out. We, as Harry Potter fans, dissected the illustrations, assigning every minute detail a significance. Many of these were incorrect and irrelevant, but I would hardly consider the Deathly Hallows symbol on the fountain a small detail. To me, the symbol was incredibly obvious when I simply glanced at the fountain. It is difficult for me to believe that JKR would have drawn the symbol on the fountain for no real reason - JKR has proven in her writing that such details are quite important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJFinch
Perhaps Jo felt it was necessary to put some tiny clue in the illustrations which would explain why DH-Devotees such as Xeno Lovegood felt they had been left clues by Beedle?
Meanwhile, I think this is the most satisfactory explanation for the symbol's presence on the Fountain of Fair Fortune. The Questers seeking the Deathly Hallows clearly had to find evidence for the existence of the Deathly Hallows. I think they would have seen the symbol on the fountain as proof that Beedle knew that the Deathly Hallows did exist, and was a clue to their existence. I would say the story of The Fountain of Fair Fortune alludes to that of The Tale of the Three Brothers. Each of the characters could reference one of the Hallows:
  • Asha, sick of a malady no one could cure, sought to banish her sickness and live a long life. = Ignotus and the Cloak of Invisibility
  • Altheda, robbed of her wealth and wand, hoped to relieve her powerlessness and poverty. = Antioch and the Elder Wand
  • Amata, deserted by a man she loved, wanted to be relieved of grief and longing. = Cadmus and the Resurrection Stone
Not direct connections, but I feel Questers may have made a similar connection and used the presence of the symbol as one to help them in their quest for the Hallows.

The fountain itself may also have had some significance in how they viewed the quest for the Deathly Hallows - tackling obstacles (which may also have played a part) to obtain "Fair Fortune."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury
But there is really absolutely no reason (unless Beedle the Bard himself was a Hallow Hunter) for the mark to be at the fountain when it was made. So yes, I like to think it was put there (on the original fountain in other words) by a Hallow Hunter.
The question then becomes, is the Fountain of Fair Fortune real? Did Beedle the Bard not only know of the Deathly Hallows, but also of a fountain said to make wizards immeasurably lucky? Are all the tales Beedle ever wrote based on fact - events and objects that actually exist(ed)? Intriguing questions. I, however, think not. I cannot imagine Beedle the Bard could know of so many objects like the Deathly Hallows. I feel Beedle wrote numerous fairy tales to disguise the Tale of the Three Brothers with - and, in doing so, hide (and simultaneously introduce) the Deathly Hallows!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murzim
Another possible explanation is, that Hermione deliberately wanted the symbol on the fountain. The fountain, according to the story, doesn't have real power. Maybe she wanted people to think that the Hallows were as useless as the fountains water, or that the Hallows were just a myth like the fountain. Harry and IMO Hermione has no interest to increase the number of people believing in the Hallows.
But Hermione only translated the stories - we have no evidence that she drew the pictures. I also cannot envision Hermione altering such artwork in a compilation of Beedle's, since she treats books with the utmost respect. For her to put the Deathly Hallows symbol in the illustration would seem out of character, to me.


__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old March 18th, 2009, 5:57 pm
metamorphus  Male.gif metamorphus is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 5133 days
Location: Maharashtra (India)
Age: 31
Posts: 4
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Each of the characters could reference one of the Hallows:
  • Asha, sick of a malady no one could cure, sought to banish her sickness and live a long life. = Ignotus and the Cloak of Invisibility
  • Altheda, robbed of her wealth and wand, hoped to relieve her powerlessness and poverty. = Antioch and the Elder Wand
  • Amata, deserted by a man she loved, wanted to be relieved of grief and longing. = Cadmus and the Resurrection Stone
Good thinking mate;
I was thinking only in terms of hallows, but this thought is pretty interesting.
and it kind of fits together.
3 witches - 3 hallows,
and
their 3 individual wishes match to the 3 properties of hallows
lost love : stone
need for power : wand
Defy sickness/death : clock

Just wonder why other symbols r there though?


Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old April 4th, 2009, 12:40 am
katana's Avatar
katana  Female.gif katana is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 4549 days
Location: need....more....footage!! D:
Age: 41
Posts: 1,096
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl View Post
I didn't notice the symbol on there until you pointed it out. There are some other symbols on there too. I wonder what they all mean.
I didn't either. I had to go double check my book. And I just noticed that the pole of the fountain is actually a elongated dragon. I saw the wings on the middle part before and though it was odd, but missed the rest.


__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old August 11th, 2009, 8:02 am
Delos Delos is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 5109 days
Posts: 11
Re: DH Symbol on the Fountain

Maybe the drawn images weren't in the original Rune version. That might explain why Hermione didn't notice the symbol there.


Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Cloak > The Tales of Beedle the Bard

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 8:24 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.