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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5



 
 
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  #201  
Old July 7th, 2011, 10:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by ManglePuppets View Post
The pause he gives when Lily asks if it matters that she is muggle-born obviously shows that their is some there, or at least he knows such prejudices exist, but the fact that he wanted her to be in the same house---if he had known Slytherins were crazed about blood status, I don't think he'd want Lily to be in that house.
I dunno, Snape clearly compartmentalize Lily in his mind, since he was capable of joining the Death Eaters and calling people Mudbloods and yet still wanting to have Lily in his life. If he was capable of those completely conflicting desires then I'm sure he could have wanted Lily in Slytherin while still acknowledging the Pureblood ideology. Though I personally think he would have been happy if she was in any house but Gryffindor.

Quote:
When he got to Hogwarts, instead of being eccepted, he realized, quite early, that he would be abused and ridiculued like he did at home, simply from being a Slytherin, or pro-Slytherin as we see in the one flash back with he and Lily on the train.
We never got evidence that Slytherins were abused and ridiculed for being Slytherins. Yes, people had house rivalries, but what people seemed to really hate were the pureblood supremacists. If Snape was hated at Hogwarts, it was because he was going around calling people Mudbloods and hanging out with Mulciber. He was also known for being interested in the Dark Arts.

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Is it any wonder why so many Slytherins turned dark?
I think it's more that dark wizards are attracted to Slytherin for the history and the pureblood ideology, rather than Slytherin producing dark wizards. I think it's unlikely that every dark wizard just happened to share the same traits as Slytherin, so I think many of them made the choice to be put there because of their darker interests.


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  #202  
Old July 7th, 2011, 11:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
I dunno, Snape clearly compartmentalize Lily in his mind, since he was capable of joining the Death Eaters and calling people Mudbloods and yet still wanting to have Lily in his life. If he was capable of those completely conflicting desires then I'm sure he could have wanted Lily in Slytherin while still acknowledging the Pureblood ideology. Though I personally think he would have been happy if she was in any house but Gryffindor.
Good point.


Quote:
We never got evidence that Slytherins were abused and ridiculed for being Slytherins. Yes, people had house rivalries, but what people seemed to really hate were the pureblood supremacists. If Snape was hated at Hogwarts, it was because he was going around calling people Mudbloods and hanging out with Mulciber. He was also known for being interested in the Dark Arts.
Yes, we do. In the very beginning of the first book, Hagrid, who is generally an unbiased character, complains to Harry about how bad the Slytherins are. The reason why Harry doesn't want to be in that house is because of this. Throughout most of the series we are given the disposition that the Slytherins are the most hated house, because of a collected bad lot, the whole house is spat on.

Quote:
I think it's more that dark wizards are attracted to Slytherin for the history and the pureblood ideology, rather than Slytherin producing dark wizards. I think it's unlikely that every dark wizard just happened to share the same traits as Slytherin, so I think many of them made the choice to be put there because of their darker interests.
I Agree.


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  #203  
Old July 8th, 2011, 12:11 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
That's fair, but then we must conclude that Snape underwent a radical change in his ideas during those missing years. It's absolutely possible, but I would point out his near-miss regarding Petunia ("She's only a--"), where the implication is either that he does not value Muggles in comparison to Wizards. I'll admit I've vacillated about this when it comes to Snape, because I don't think it's every really clear what he believes. At the very least I hope you'll agree that he had some opportunity to notice that Muggleborns were not held in high esteem by some wizards.
I agree with you that he has little use for Muggles (and I think the reasons why this would be are pretty clear too - he can't wait to be quit of his father, his family, and the place he lives, and start his new, and the poor sap hopes, far better, life among wizards, in the wizard world where he belongs). But Lily is not a Muggle. She is a witch. And it is my opinion that it is this, rather than her physical beauty or visible enjoyment of life, that causes him to initially approach her.

I think it is very hard to know what he did or did not have the opportunity to observe. He lives in what Bella characterizes as "a Muggle dunghill". Is his mother prejudiced against Muggleborns? It seems unlikely, she married a Muggle. Though the mistake that apparently was for her may have caused a revision of her views on the blood issue, naturally.

Does he have many other wizard contacts? This is flimsy evidence, but his interest in a witch in his neighborhood makes me put the scraps together to come up with a picture in which he has very little contact with the wizard world. If he had lots of witch and wizard friends who rattle on about Mudbloods during his frequent visits, I don't think he would have been hanging out at the Muggle playground, admiring Lily and her magic from afar. He'd have been looking forward to his next visit to "his" world. Instead, as I see it, he is stuck in Spinner's End and escapes it in his dreams about the day when he will finally attain his promised land. Dreams he is delighted to share with his witch best friend, once he makes her acquaintance.

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Seriously though, the narrative repeatedly uses words like "eager" and "greedy" to describe Snape's behavior. I would also point out something that strikes me about the language in the narrative... Lily primarily "looks" at Snape, but Snape "watches" Lily. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but doesn't that sort of put Snape at a distance even though he spends time face-to-face with her?
Oh, I agree there is a difference and it is deliberate. While "watch" can mean in the manner of an audience watching a performance, suggesting distance (which I gather is how you take it), it also has the meaning of attentive, close, vigilant, and prolonged looking, which is how I always took it (especially in combination with the eager sorts of adjectives). To me the asymmetry in language seems to convey the asymmetry in the relationship, that Lily is more important to Sev than any other person, while Sev is one among many people who are to various degrees special to Lily.

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To be honest, I don't really see a marked difference between young Snape and teen Snape, although of course I am open to the idea because something must explain how Snape ended up a Death Eater.
I'm not trying to say his personality changed or something like that. I think he had a disappointment in his Hogwarts years. To me, it seems that as a child, he coped with the problems that he had, by convincing himself that they would go away when he was finally able to go to Hogwarts. He would go there, and he would be accepted and respected and successful and happy because he would be a good student and a wizard just like all of the other boys and girls. His success in attaching Lily would probably have confirmed the correctness of this view for him, as I see it. And then it didn't quite work out as glowingly as he had imagined, and he was left looking for a new solution. And the easy solution that presented itself is hinted, in my opinion, by Lucius's hand on his shoulder.

I just want to say in concluding this post - we see a laughably tiny amount of information about Snape's early life to be attempting a definitive reconstruction, and none of it provides his thoughts and feelings. I'm posting my best guess, and trying to explain which bits and pieces I am getting it from. I'm not saying I think you're wrong, you've explained where your ideas come from quite clearly.


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  #204  
Old July 8th, 2011, 2:02 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I'm agreeing that teaching was not a suitable career for Snape, and I'm also pointing out exactly why he was stuck in a job he disliked.
Well I was under the impression that he was stuck in a job he disliked because he had agreed to do "anything" for Dumbledore. Or rather not because of the mistakes he had made but rather a desire to atone for those mistakes.

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Snape is shown to be intelligent. I think it would take an idiot not to realise what the DEs were. Voldemort was already known as You-Know-Who by Snape's fifth year. That says that he and his followers had been terrorising the population to the extent that people feared his name. People were living in fear of these dangerous criminals, and I think it would take an idiot not to be aware of that, and Snape was certainly not an idiot.
Well IMO canon does not protray Regulus as an idiot, yet he too signed up to be a Death Eater and regretted it. I think it is perfectly possible for an intelligent person to be so focussed on their goals, and to be so absorbed in their ambition that they loose sight of how they are to achieve those ambitions. I don't think that Snape really considered what Voldemort's agenda was; Snape was only interested in attaining the power and prestige that he perceived went with being a Death Eater. Jo Rowling herself has said that Severus thought that Lily would be impressed by him becoming a Death Eater, and this was probably because Severus thought that this would be impressive. This is not altogether surprising IMO given Sev's experiences with first his father and then James Potter. So I find it perfectly plausible that Sev became a DE without fully understanding the implications of this decision. I also think that he didn't really care; that he blinded himself to the worst side of being a Death Eater, as long as it didn't effect him personally.

Quote:
Snape did not realise his mistake at the time he went to Dumbledore, IMO - he realised that Lily was in danger. He didn't want someone he cared about to die. That is not the same as recognising that joining a group of genocidal terrorists at all is wrong. I think that realisation came much later for Snape.
But in going to Dumbledore he made a huge and dangerous leap in the right direction. He was certainly aware that there was no way back to being a Death Eater from that point. He certainly didn't go to Dumbledore with the expectation of getting Dumbledore to save Lily while he went back and carried on being a Death Eater. SO it was at that moment that he stopped being a Death Eater and the moment when he felt great remorse for being a Death Eater in the first place. If someone has the courage to turn against a group such as the Death Eaters and betray them as Snape did, then IMO that person has shown through their actions a determination to do the right thing.

Quote:
As for second chances, it is regrettable that he is unable to give Harry a first chance, even after the massive second chance he himself was given.
Well as Dumbledore said - some wounds run too deep to heal (excuse my paraphrasing) Snape was completely unfair to Harry, but IMO Harry understood the emotional baggage that Severus was carrying regarding himself and was able to look beyond what had happened in the classroom to what had happened throughout the fight against Voldemort, and see that Snape's treatment of him, while unjust wasn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.


Canismajoris - Great points regarding Lily and Snape's relationship. I don't think that Sev was secure in the relationship either. However I think it is difficult to judge their relationship based on the snippets we are shown. Due to the circumstances of the revelation of these conversations they are occasions when Sev and Lily are disagreeing, so we are only shown the worst part of their relationship. They must have had some really good times because otherwise I can't see how their friendship could have lasted so long.


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  #205  
Old July 8th, 2011, 2:12 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
To me, it seems that as a child, he coped with the problems that he had, by convincing himself that they would go away when he was finally able to go to Hogwarts. He would go there, and he would be accepted and respected and successful and happy because he would be a good student and a wizard just like all of the other boys and girls. His success in attaching Lily would probably have confirmed the correctness of this view for him, as I see it. And then it didn't quite work out as glowingly as he had imagined, and he was left looking for a new solution. And the easy solution that presented itself is hinted, in my opinion, by Lucius's hand on his shoulder.
I think that,

As a young child, he felt rejected and neglected by his parents. Perhaps he knew no other wizard children.

He spots Lily and sees her doing magic, and is thrilled. Another magical child! He is no longer so alone.

He thinks he will finally gain acceptance at Hogwarts, among fellow witches and wizards. He arrives, full of knowledge and excitement. However, it doesn't go as he imagines it would.

He joins the DE, thinking he will finally be accepted with them. But he messes up, and they target Lily.

He becomes a professor at Hogwarts, surrounded by professors who grow to respect and accept him, but he can't fully rid himself of all those memories of rejection, plus he is a spy and cannot really be himself around anyone but Dumbledore. The Malfoys seem to have offered him friendship, but of course since he is a spy, he darn sure can't really return the sentiment. He has to hide his spying.

Then he AK's Dumbledore. The very professors who once respected him now LOATHE him, and he has to allow them to reject him in order to appear on LV's side. And the DE's, whose actions he himself rejects? He has to pretend to be on their side.

All very sad, I think.

Emma Watson said something at the premier today which stood out to me. She said Hermione came to Hogwarts full of excitement and eager to learn. And we know Hermione read everything she could get her hands on. I'm wondering if Professor Snape was so hard on her because she reminded him of himself when he first came to school? He probably had that nerdy, well-read, bookish excitement, thrilled to be at Hogwarts, and perhaps was the first to raise HIS hand in class and show off his knowledge. Perhaps that was squashed in him, and part of his feelings of deep rejection. Perhaps Hermione reminded him of what he once was? And why when her teeth grew when that spell hit her, he had no sympathy, since people made fun of his looks?

Just a theory.

And I'm not making excuses for his behavior towards Hermione - just trying to understand the Snape character.


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  #206  
Old July 8th, 2011, 2:26 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
SO it was at that moment that he stopped being a Death Eater and the moment when he felt great remorse for being a Death Eater in the first place. If someone has the courage to turn against a group such as the Death Eaters and betray them as Snape did, then IMO that person has shown through their actions a determination to do the right thing.
Well, I don't think there is any real canon evidence showing that at the time Snape went to Dumbledore he felt remorse for being a DE. All we are shown is that he indeed felt great remorse and regret for the threat on Lily's life, but whether Snape felt that his collective time as a DE was wrong is still inconclusive. It's all subjective and open to interpretation. Personally, I don't think Snape, at the time he went to Dumbledore, understood the evil that comes with being a DE and supporting a ruthless sociopath. Rather, I think his switch to the light may have opened his eyes to this, and only then would he have been able to feel remorse for the days he spent as a DE.

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
I'm wondering if Professor Snape was so hard on her because she reminded him of himself when he first came to school? He probably had that nerdy, well-read, bookish excitement, thrilled to be at Hogwarts, and perhaps was the first to raise HIS hand in class and show off his knowledge. Perhaps that was squashed in him, and part of his feelings of deep rejection. Perhaps Hermione reminded him of what he once was? And why when her teeth grew when that spell hit her, he had no sympathy, since people made fun of his looks?
I'm not really inclined to believe this. We don't know what was squashed out of him at Hogwarts, if anything was for that matter, but I'm inclined to believe that the teachers wouldn't have berated a student for showing a willingness to learn. No, that seems to have been Snape's job. I think Snape was harsh on Hermione because he was simply annoyed by her. Plus the fact that she happened to be Harry Potter's best friend. That was probably the icing on the cake, her friendship with Harry.



Last edited by slytherin001; July 8th, 2011 at 2:41 am.
  #207  
Old July 8th, 2011, 2:47 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
I'm not really inclined to believe this. We don't know what was squashed out of him at Hogwarts, if anything was for that matter, but I'm inclined to believe that the teachers wouldn't have berated a student for showing a willingness to learn. No, that seems to have been Snape's job. I think Snape was harsh on Hermione because he was simply annoyed by her. Plus the fact that she happened to be Harry Potter's best friend. That was probably the icing on the cake, her friendship with Harry.
I'm not thinking the professors were harsh with Snape when he attended Hogwarts. I'm think more along the lines of SWM.

Snape was rarely harsh with Ron, but he and Harry were great friends. I don't think his friendship with Hermione had anything to do with it. There had to be a reason he found Hermione annoying, in your words, I think.


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  #208  
Old July 8th, 2011, 3:05 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
I'm not thinking the professors were harsh with Snape when he attended Hogwarts. I'm think more along the lines of SWM.

Snape was rarely harsh with Ron, but he and Harry were great friends. I don't think his friendship with Hermione had anything to do with it. There had to be a reason he found Hermione annoying, in your words, I think.
Snape found Hermione annoying because she was a suck up. In his own words, "An insufferable know it all." Hermione constantly wanted attention, for the teacher's approval. In other words, Hermione was much like a dog who wanted to be pat on the head and be told, "good dog." Snape saw that behavior annoying, paired up with the fact that she hung out with Potter, and was a Gryffindor, explains it all. Ron never raised his hand during class, so that's why Snape didn't yell at him as much. Ron seemed to catch on quicker than Hermione did that Snape didn't like him, and it would be stupid to bother raising your hand.


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  #209  
Old July 8th, 2011, 3:12 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by ManglePuppets View Post
Snape found Hermione annoying because she was a suck up. In his own words, "An insufferable know it all." Hermione constantly wanted attention, for the teacher's approval. In other words, Hermione was much like a dog who wanted to be pat on the head and be told, "good dog." Snape saw that behavior annoying.
And my theory is that he was the same way when he first entered Hogwarts. Excited, nerdy, "know-it-all" who also wanted approval and acceptance. He wanted that pat on the head, and respect for his knowledge.


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  #210  
Old July 8th, 2011, 3:15 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
And my theory is that he was the same way when he first entered Hogwarts. Excited, nerdy, "know-it-all" who also wanted approval and acceptance. He wanted that pat on the head, and respect for his knowledge.
I would also see Snape very much as a brainy kid eager to learn, but I don't see Snape as eager to announce it to the whole school. He is shown as being a very quiet. insecure boy, so I always imagined that while he would answer questions in class, never with as much enthusiasm or desire to prove himself.


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Old July 8th, 2011, 3:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Questions
  1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore? Yes and no. I believe his soul was still intact because Severus knew Dumbledore was dying and would have been tortured by Bellatrix. He helped end Dumbledore's suffering, and kept a promise he made to a Friend. He also promised a Mother he'd protect her Baby so another situation like Harry Potter's didn't happen. I also say "no" because I think it tore at Snape's core to do this. He tried, several times, and at one point got into a heated argument with Dumbledore which was over heard by Hagrid. He wanted out--he didn't want to do it. If given a choice, I think he would have rather died himself than kill his Friend to save the life of another Child. Plus, he had to live with it for the rest of his life. So, I think, on a personal level, his soul was torn but to everyone else, it was made stronger.
  2. To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility? Completely. They made Severus become an emotional cripple. From all accounts, he witnessed his Mother being abused by his Father on a daily basis. I'm sure Severus himself fell victim to abuse and was left to fend for himself. I'm sure his Mother blamed him for all the wrong in her life and as a result made him pay by neglecting him, making people know what a shame he was to her, etc. As for the decisions later in life, for example to talk in a low, controlled voice, was probably the result of being screamed at and listening to screaming. I also think Snape is partially responsible for his Choices, because he made them on his own, despite Lily telling him he was better than the DE, that he had so much potential. He chose his path in life, and later suffered because of it.
  3. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? That's a hard one. Since she Married James Potter and had his Son, I would say "no". It would be a constant reminder of what he had lost, etc. It would have made him even more bitter and much angrier and more bent and determined to get vengeance on the world. Would he have turned to the good side in that case? As much of a Snape fan, unless he met an older version of himself and unless He shook him and scared the living daylights out of him by saying "This is what happened and you'll be just as culpable as Tom Riddle" and showed Lily being affected in some way, I doubt it.
  4. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Because he'd been rejected every where he turned. Here was her older Sister already telling Lily what a Freak of nature Snape was. Every time he saw her, Petunia was there influencing Lily's movements. Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical? Because of the way he was raised, no, probably not.
  5. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? Because they wound up in the two different Houses with the biggest rivalry, their Friendship was put to the test. Again, they both had outside influences which impacted their Friendship. We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship? I think Lily worked harder than Snape did to maintain the Friendship. Snape, on the other hand, didn't give his decisions and how they made Lily feel much thought. I think he felt as long as he didn't lay a hand on her, call her derogatory names Muggles used, swore at her, threatened her, she would accept his decisions. However, she threw him a curve ball. She stood up for herself and spoke up on her beliefs. She told him some of his decisions, like his being into Dark Arts, hanging with Death Eaters, etc put him in a very negative light. Again, she saw that person hiding within him and wanted him to give that side of himself a chance to prove he was more than a stereotypical Slytherin. The only time Snape did work to really save their Friendship was when he called her M#D@(ood, saw the hurt and horror on her face and realized he blew it.
  6. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship? I think if he had been able to save it, Lily might have been his closest Friend for a long, long time. I think he would have not only had a huge scare after the incident, but learned words do hurt and can ruin/kill a friendship. I also think he may have slowly cut his ties to the Death Eaters. Maybe not the Dark Arts, but at least the people he socialized with. He may have gone on to live in a different house, learned to take pride in himself and those around him and maybe have stood up for kids who were like him.
  7. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius? It didn't change anything. I knew there was an underlying reason for his "murder" of Dumbledore, that he just didn't merely walk up and say "nice to know you". As for his treatment of Sirius, I think it was always a mutual dislike for each other. I think it was a case where they both needed to be told to "Grow up" and put their Childish "MacEnroe/Connors like" insults to rest.
  8. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series? While it explained it, it doesn't excuse it. This is where I think Dumbledore should have read him the riot act from day one and made it clear he was not to bully the Children like that. Even if their Guardians said nothing, Dumbledore was his Mentor/Father Figure and should have been more firm.
  9. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level? Although we would never hear Severus Snape saying "Please forgive me", I think on many levels he would have appreciated being told "Now that I see the truth, I do/eventually will forgive you". Did he need it? Yes, absolutely. He needed Harry to say "I forgive you for what you did" in order to move on and make amends with Harry.
  10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him? Dumbledore was a substitute Father Figure for a man who desperately needed a Mentor at a very young age. Was he a Friend? Yes, I think so. If he didn't trust Dumbledore enough to consider him a Friend, I doubt he'd let his guard down and let his real self and emotions show.


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  #212  
Old July 8th, 2011, 3:29 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManglePuppets View Post
I would also see Snape very much as a brainy kid eager to learn, but I don't see Snape as eager to announce it to the whole school. He is shown as being a very quiet. insecure boy, so I always imagined that while he would answer questions in class, never with as much enthusiasm or desire to prove himself.
Yes, I don't see that Snape and Hermione were similar in this aspect. We never see Snape in the classroom, but I never got the feeling that Snape was the type to overtly display his knowledge. I always saw him as the type to keep his head down and stay quiet while he did his work. I never got the notion that Snape was an insufferable know-it-all that Hermione was often wont to be. I think, ultimately, this difference in the display of knowledge between Snape and Hermione is what annoyed Snape most about Hermione. The fact that she happened to be bosom buddies with Harry Potter didn't help anything either. I think you explained quite nicely why Snape wasn't as harsh on Ron as he was with Hermione.


  #213  
Old July 8th, 2011, 3:48 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

I think Snape found Hermione frustrating because she was so eager for approval and couldn't resist helping people. It's the students that don't put their hands up and haven't understood that need a teacher's attention. To teach them anything Snape had to get them to think for themselves, instead of relying on Hermione to have the answers.

When Snape asked Neville to make a potion, it was not because he needed the potion. The point was for Neville to understand the process involved in making it. Neville would learn nothing if Hermione did the work for him.

When Snape asked questions of students he'd never taught before, it was not because he expected or needed the answers, it was to find out how much they knew. If he let Hermione answer all the questions, or he asked questions that everyone could answer, he'd learn nothing useful about the class.


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  #214  
Old July 8th, 2011, 4:18 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
yes, because he knew it was dumbledores wishes, he wasnt doing it to be evil, he was doing it to show mercy. i also think that snapes heart was torn the day he chose his life of death eaters over lily, i think he was never the same. but that love he had for lily kept his soul and heart good. that love is what kept him coming back to the good side.

To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
obviously the way he was raised played a role in how he viewed others. he was probably raised to hate half bloods or mudbloods. for this he cant be faulted, however once he got older and realized for himself that his parents were wrong he should have made better choices, however he made a choice to join the death eaters and to be prejiuce againt anyone who was not a pureblood.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
i believe james and lily would have remained married and for this snape would have been resentful. nothing could change that. but like i said earlier, it was lily's love that kept snape good in the end. without lilys love he would have never played the role he played so well.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I believe his parents dissaproval prevented this. also at school his choice of friends would have never accepted him dating a "mudblood". i believe he would have loved her either way.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think it was the friendships they each made outside of eachother that changed their friendship. I dont think they needed to work to maintain a friendship, i think they simply were friends no matter what. it was snapes inconsiderate words and friendships that prevented them from staying friends, it was snapes choice to tamper with the dark arts and lily's ability to refuse to become a part of that, that prevented them from staying friends.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
if snape decided to eliminate every friend he had that was involved with the dark arts, then maybe his life would have been different. but it was unlikely that snape would ever give up the friends he had especially since lily's friends (james, lupin, sirius, peter) didnt like snape. everyone wants to be accepted.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
i can see and understand the resentment. i know he probably felt betrayed by lily in a way, and probably always wished he was able to walk away from the life he was welcomed into as a child. he probably he probably held a lot of jealousy and this jealousy turned his motives into vindication. i think this jealous rage explains his attitude to sirius. and also siruis was mean to him as a child and snape never forgot about it. i think his murder of dumbledore shows that even through the jealousy he could still see the greater good and love was still in his heart, even after all the betrayal he felt.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
I believe snape felt responsible for harry's tragic past. snape felt like he owed something to harry but he was burdened by this because he hated james so much. and when he saw harry he not only saw lily, the one he loved but he also saw james. Neville reminded him of what voldermort could have done, and reminded snape that it was harry not neville that volermort chose. i think this angered snape because snape in some way wished that it was nevilles parents who had been killed and not his lily. i think that he also felt torn for feeling this way about nevilles parents because they were good people. but to snape, no one compared to lily. i think his treatment of harry and neville is a direct relection of the torn feelings he had for them and their families.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
Yes. i not only think he wanted harrys forgiveness but also his acceptance. i believe snape felt rejected his whole life except by 2 people. lily potter and lord voldermort. this again shows us that he was torn between a love he could never have and power he didnt want. his whole life snape was rejected by lilys friends but snape loved lily and probably wanted nothing more than to be accepted. so on some level i believe he hoped that acceptance would come from harry. maybe this is the void he was looking to fill and he hoped that harry could fill it. i believe snape wanted harrys forgiveness, forgiveness he wished lily was there to give. not only to forgive for telling voldermort the prophecy but forgiveness for not listening to lily when she told him to not befriend the people he was befriending.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I dont think either. i think snape again, was torn. he hated dumbledore for making his live a double life but he loved dumbledore for being good and giving him the ablility to protect lily's son. again this good v evil, lily v vordermort come up again... i believe that snape trusted dumbledore more than anyone in his life and for this he may have looked at dumbledore as a father figure, giving him guidence and direction.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
the fact that not only does the audience know if he is good or evil, i think there are moments when snape himself isnt sure.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
his strength is his ability to have love...and to use that love to be willing to sacrifice himself. his flaw is that he lets the past control his present, he has to much anger.

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
he is a person who cant let go of love...and cant let go of hate. he allows these feelings to tear at his very soul and it forces him to act in a way that seems unjust and unfair. he allows his past to control his present and he is not quick to admit something like love, because he means it so much, it hurts.


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Last edited by nevilleismyhero; July 8th, 2011 at 4:20 am.
  #215  
Old July 8th, 2011, 7:00 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

I have a quibble with the notion that Snape was not suited for teaching. I think he was likely well suited for teaching... just not for teaching children.

He would have been brilliant, I think, teaching a class of Master's or Ph.D. level Potions students. In fact, I think he - and they - might have found it fun. He seems to be the type who gets energized by highly competent people... and extremely frustrated by people who are not at that same level (which children - simply by virtue of being children - are not). As a sidenote: I totally get not being suited for teaching children. It's precisely why I teach college and not elementary or secondary school. And yes, I am sufficiently nice.

At any rate, as a teacher, Snape is well organized, he appears to use his own Potions improvements rather than a canned text, he teaches the component ingredients and requires his students to learn how ingredients interact, he requires critical thinking of his students, he uses an active/collaborative learning methodology, and he sets high standards. All of these factors bode well for working with advanced students and adult learners. And I think these techniques demonstrate that he has given some thought to his pedagogy.

The problem is that he's teaching kids. And he shouldn't be. So yes, Snape is not well suited for teaching the students he's teaching, but I don't think that means he would be not be well suited for a teaching career exclusively in the more advanced levels. He might actually be great at it.

Leslie and nevilleismyhero

I enjoyed reading your responses. You both have clearly put a lot of thought into your answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie
As for his treatment of Sirius, I think it was always a mutual dislike for each other. I think it was a case where they both needed to be told to "Grow up" and put their Childish "MacEnroe/Connors like" insults to rest.
I totally agree with this. This is an instance, in my opinion, where Dumbledore should have intervened. As their "commanding officer," I think that he should have done more to get them to work through their differences rather than just have them shake hands and call it an alliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilleismyhero
Neville reminded him of what voldermort could have done, and reminded snape that it was harry not neville that volermort chose. i think this angered snape because snape in some way wished that it was nevilles parents who had been killed and not his lily. i think that he also felt torn for feeling this way about nevilles parents because they were good people. but to snape, no one compared to lily. i think his treatment of harry and neville is a direct relection of the torn feelings he had for them and their families.
Neville is a great kid and one of my favorite characters. But I don't think the text provides sufficient evidence that Snape singled him out due to the prophecy. What I think the text more fully supports is what I wrote above: that Snape is not suited to teach younger students... and he's definitely not suited to teach students who require special attention. He actually makes his frustration with Neville's difficulties clear during the infamous toad incident.

Here's the dynamic I see taking place: Neville's difficulties make Snape impatient and angry. Snape's impatience and anger make Neville more nervous and give him more difficulties. Neville's increased difficulties make Snape even more impatient and angry. Etc. It becomes a vicious cycle. Neville starts to break the cycle, though, when he gets involved with the DA. By his 7th year, he has no fear of Snape remaining.

At any rate, I'm not trying to justify Snape's treatment of Neville. Just trying to explain what I think is going on. And no, I don't think Snape's impatience and anger are Neville's fault.


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Last edited by ccollinsmith; July 8th, 2011 at 7:04 am.
  #216  
Old July 8th, 2011, 11:29 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
Well, I don't think there is any real canon evidence showing that at the time Snape went to Dumbledore he felt remorse for being a DE. All we are shown is that he indeed felt great remorse and regret for the threat on Lily's life, but whether Snape felt that his collective time as a DE was wrong is still inconclusive. It's all subjective and open to interpretation. Personally, I don't think Snape, at the time he went to Dumbledore, understood the evil that comes with being a DE and supporting a ruthless sociopath. Rather, I think his switch to the light may have opened his eyes to this, and only then would he have been able to feel remorse for the days he spent as a DE.
I understand what you mean. I don't think that Snape went to Dumbledore thinking "I made a terrible mistake when I joined the Death Eaters" rather he went to meet Dumbledore knowing that he was no longer a Death Eater, and that he was actually going to betray Voldemort. In other words he made a choice. In many ways this is the flip side of his calling Lily a "Mudblood" because retrospectively that was the point when he chose to side with the wannabe Death Eaters. IMO these were not conscious decisions by Severus, rather they were the actions which came from his heart's desires. He wanted to be a Death Eater thinking it would give him the power and prestiege he so conspicuously lacked, and that having the power and prestiege would impress Lily. The result is that he ends up severing his relationship with her. When Lily's life is threatened he realises that she is more important to him than power and prestiege. It is his first step on the path to redemption - he sees the light as it were and follows that light. And he perseveres on this path even though it takes him to the deepest, darkest and most dangerous places.

To me his actions in this respect speak resoundingly of remorse and a desire to atone. Yes Severus was an unfair bullying teacher, but that wasn't all he was; he was also an extraordinarily brave spy who managed to fool the greatest legilimens in the wizarding world, and if Harry was able to forgive Severus for his behaviour in the classroom in light of his work for the order, then I don't see that it is a problem.

ETA
I think Snape found Hermione annoying because she was annoying. Snape had little patience in the classroom and was easily irritated. I'm inclined to believe that having seen the things he'd seen, and experienced the things he'd experienced he considered much of what the pupils considered important as trivial. I think he wanted to his pupils to knuckle down and work hard because he knew what was out there; I also think that that was why he wanted to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts - because he wanted the pupils to be able to defend themselves. IMO he just wanted to give them all a good shake and frighten them so they wouldn't be complacent. In a way he was the exact oppostie of Umbridge!

Eta II

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith
I have a quibble with the notion that Snape was not suited for teaching. I think he was likely well suited for teaching... just not for teaching children.
Yes I'd have to agree with this. An important distinction to make!


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Last edited by CathyWeasley; July 8th, 2011 at 7:15 pm.
  #217  
Old July 8th, 2011, 8:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwendolen View Post
Snape's mother must have been one of the least prejudiced magical characters in the books, as she married a muggle. That may be why Snape knew prejudice existed before he went to Hogwarts, and why said it didn't matter - i.e. it didn't matter to him.
Where then, did Snape's attitude of "You're just a Muggle" come from? Perhaps Eileen Prince developed a resentment towards all Muggles because of her negative experience with one Muggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManglePuppets View Post
Yes, we do. In the very beginning of the first book, Hagrid, who is generally an unbiased character, complains to Harry about how bad the Slytherins are. The reason why Harry doesn't want to be in that house is because of this. Throughout most of the series we are given the disposition that the Slytherins are the most hated house, because of a collected bad lot, the whole house is spat on.
I think the information that Voldemort had been a Slytherin was a big factor in putting Harry off, and an understandable one, IMO. Also, Slytherin House had won the House Cup for several years before PS/SS. That indicates to me that the other teachers are not biased agaist Slytherin House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
I just want to say in concluding this post - we see a laughably tiny amount of information about Snape's early life to be attempting a definitive reconstruction, and none of it provides his thoughts and feelings.
I agree. For example, we see too little of Snape's early life to say definitively that Tobias was physically violent towards either Severus or Eileen. I think there is not enough textual evidence to say for certain either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
Well I was under the impression that he was stuck in a job he disliked because he had agreed to do "anything" for Dumbledore. Or rather not because of the mistakes he had made but rather a desire to atone for those mistakes.
His own choices led him to that situation. If Severus Snape had chosen a non-criminal lifestyle when he left Hogwarts, he would not have had a hand in Lily's death, he would not have been spying on Voldemort, he would not have been at Hogwarts in a job he hated.

Quote:
Well IMO canon does not protray Regulus as an idiot, yet he too signed up to be a Death Eater and regretted it. I think it is perfectly possible for an intelligent person to be so focussed on their goals, and to be so absorbed in their ambition that they loose sight of how they are to achieve those ambitions. I don't think that Snape really considered what Voldemort's agenda was; Snape was only interested in attaining the power and prestige that he perceived went with being a Death Eater. Jo Rowling herself has said that Severus thought that Lily would be impressed by him becoming a Death Eater, and this was probably because Severus thought that this would be impressive. This is not altogether surprising IMO given Sev's experiences with first his father and then James Potter. So I find it perfectly plausible that Sev became a DE without fully understanding the implications of this decision. I also think that he didn't really care; that he blinded himself to the worst side of being a Death Eater, as long as it didn't effect him personally.
IMO, Snape and Regulus knew what was going on. It was public knowledge that Voldemort was murdering people - he was already referred to as You-Know-Who by Snape's fifth year. Did Snape think that was because he threw really wild or glamorous parties? Molly and Arthur Weasley were among many couples who eloped, because they were afraid, and did not know if they'd be murdered. Canon says there, and in GoF, that people feared for their lives, because they knew that people were disappearing and being murdered.
IMO, Snape knew exactly what the DEs were, but did not care, if he was going to get something out of it.

Quote:
Well as Dumbledore said - some wounds run too deep to heal (excuse my paraphrasing) Snape was completely unfair to Harry, but IMO Harry understood the emotional baggage that Severus was carrying regarding himself and was able to look beyond what had happened in the classroom to what had happened throughout the fight against Voldemort, and see that Snape's treatment of him, while unjust wasn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
So if Snape treats someone unjustly, it isn't a big deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slytherin001 View Post
Personally, I don't think Snape, at the time he went to Dumbledore, understood the evil that comes with being a DE and supporting a ruthless sociopath. Rather, I think his switch to the light may have opened his eyes to this, and only then would he have been able to feel remorse for the days he spent as a DE.
I don't think he understood the depths he had sunk to then, either. I think that what was bothering Snape then was his own feelings - he didn't want to experience the same grief he was willing to inflict on other people. I think it was much later that he realised how much evil he had immersed himself in as a DE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie33 View Post
From all accounts, he witnessed his Mother being abused by his Father on a daily basis. I'm sure Severus himself fell victim to abuse and was left to fend for himself. I'm sure his Mother blamed him for all the wrong in her life and as a result made him pay by neglecting him, making people know what a shame he was to her, etc.
I don't think there is anything in canon to say that Tobias was abusive on a daily basis - and there is nothing at all to say that he was physically abusive to either Snape or Eileen. He was unpleasant, and yelled a lot, but in canon, he is not physically abusive. And there is nothing to indicate that Eileen blamed her son for her problems.


Quote:
I think if he had been able to save it, Lily might have been his closest Friend for a long, long time. I think he would have not only had a huge scare after the incident, but learned words do hurt and can ruin/kill a friendship.
I doubt Snape would have learned from the incident if Lily had accepted his apology. I think it would have reinforced his delusion that he could have Lily and also the DEs in his life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwendolen View Post
I think Snape found Hermione frustrating because she was so eager for approval and couldn't resist helping people. It's the students that don't put their hands up and haven't understood that need a teacher's attention. To teach them anything Snape had to get them to think for themselves, instead of relying on Hermione to have the answers.
Unfortunately, Snape's methods do not work for students like Neville - he has no patience for students who struggle with the work. Also, his bullying behaviour puts students off raising their hands, IMO. Kids are not going to volunteer information if they expect to be ridiculed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilleismyhero View Post
i can see and understand the resentment. i know he probably felt betrayed by lily in a way, and probably always wished he was able to walk away from the life he was welcomed into as a child.
I think it would be a huge denial of his own responsibility if Snape felt that Lily had betrayed him. He hung around with people who considered Muggleborns to be scum, he called her a racist word that is described in the text as "unforgivable", "foul", "disgusting" and "very offensive". In what way could he imagine that Lily betrayed him, by refusing to be a doormat, another Eileen Prince?

Quote:
i think snape again, was torn. he hated dumbledore for making his live a double life but he loved dumbledore for being good and giving him the ablility to protect lily's son.
I think that would be quite ungrateful, if he hated or resented Dumbledore for not sending for the Aurors and having him carted off to Azkaban. I doubt Snape resents Dumbledore for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
At any rate, as a teacher, Snape is well organized, he appears to use his own Potions improvements rather than a canned text, he teaches the component ingredients and requires his students to learn how ingredients interact, he requires critical thinking of his students, he uses an active/collaborative learning methodology, and he sets high standards. All of these factors bode well for working with advanced students and adult learners. And I think these techniques demonstrate that he has given some thought to his pedagogy.
Where does Snape require understanding of components or critical thinking? His method seems to be writing the recipe on the board, telling the students to follow it, and then swooping around insulting the work, rather than using constructive criticism.

Quote:
The problem is that he's teaching kids. And he shouldn't be. So yes, Snape is not well suited for teaching the students he's teaching, but I don't think that means he would be not be well suited for a teaching career exclusively in the more advanced levels. He might actually be great at it.
Unfortunately, his first choice was crime, rather than acadaemia. My sympathies lie entirely with Snape's students, and not with a man whose own choices led him to where he was.

Quote:
Here's the dynamic I see taking place: Neville's difficulties make Snape impatient and angry. Snape's impatience and anger make Neville more nervous and give him more difficulties. Neville's increased difficulties make Snape even more impatient and angry. Etc. It becomes a vicious cycle. Neville starts to break the cycle, though, when he gets involved with the DA. By his 7th year, he has no fear of Snape remaining.
It may be a vicious cycle, but I do not think Nevile is in any way, shape or form responsible for it. Neville did nothing to provoke Snape, he did not deliberately struggle with his school work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
To me his actions in this respect speak resoundingly of remorse and a desire to atone. Yes Severus was an unfair bullying teacher, but that wasn't all he was; he was also an extraordinarily brave spy who managed to fool the greatest legilimens in the wizarding world, and if Harry was able to forgive Severus for his behaviour in the classroom in light of his work for the order, then I don't see that it is a problem.
Forgiveness does not mean the behaviour was okay. Forgiveness means that Harry no longer holds it against Snape, and is no longer angry about it. Forgiveness does not mean that Harry thinks Snape was justified in bullying students, IMO.

Quote:
I think Snape found Hermione annoying because she was annoying.
I think that would be a matter of opinion.


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Last edited by FurryDice; July 8th, 2011 at 8:12 pm.
  #218  
Old July 8th, 2011, 9:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think he understood the depths he had sunk to then, either. I think that what was bothering Snape then was his own feelings - he didn't want to experience the same grief he was willing to inflict on other people. I think it was much later that he realised how much evil he had immersed himself in as a DE.
Of course. I hadn't meant to make my comment sound as though I thought Snape suddenly had a change of heart the moment he said 'Anything'. I agree with what you're saying. I think it was a gradual process that Snape came to realize and retribute all of the evil that came with being a DE, not just the part he had in the death of Lily. I think him switching sides and working with Dumbledore on the right path is what ultimately allowed him to see the error in his ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
I understand what you mean. I don't think that Snape went to Dumbledore thinking "I made a terrible mistake when I joined the Death Eaters" rather he went to meet Dumbledore knowing that he was no longer a Death Eater, and that he was actually going to betray Voldemort. In other words he made a choice. In many ways this is the flip side of his calling Lily a "Mudblood" because retrospectively that was the point when he chose to side with the wannabe Death Eaters. IMO these were not conscious decisions by Severus, rather they were the actions which came from his heart's desires. He wanted to be a Death Eater thinking it would give him the power and prestiege he so conspicuously lacked, and that having the power and prestiege would impress Lily. The result is that he ends up severing his relationship with her. When Lily's life is threatened he realises that she is more important to him than power and prestiege. It is his first step on the path to redemption - he sees the light as it were and follows that light. And he perseveres on this path even though it takes him to the deepest, darkest and most dangerous places.
Oh, I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.


  #219  
Old July 8th, 2011, 9:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
His own choices led him to that situation. If Severus Snape had chosen a non-criminal lifestyle when he left Hogwarts, he would not have had a hand in Lily's death, he would not have been spying on Voldemort, he would not have been at Hogwarts in a job he hated.
I think as a rule we should avoid "would haves" in situations like this. A hypothetical future based on hindsight is not as predictable as you're suggesting it is.

I see it as an irony that if Snape had not made those bad choices, a great many more people might have died, since Voldemort could have continued to gain power rather than falling that night in Godric's Hollow. So yeah, maybe things would have worked out better for Snape and Lily, but for how long?


  #220  
Old July 8th, 2011, 9:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
His own choices led him to that situation. If Severus Snape had chosen a non-criminal lifestyle when he left Hogwarts, he would not have had a hand in Lily's death, he would not have been spying on Voldemort, he would not have been at Hogwarts in a job he hated.
I wasn't disputing that it was Snape's own choices. Going back to my original point I was pointing out that his personality was not suited to being a teacher (specifically of children) and this was a contributing factor to his bad behaviour in the classroom. I am seeking to explore the reasons behind Snape's behaviour and dissect his character. Please correct me if I am wrong but the impression I am getting from your posts is that you are saying "Well it served him right to be in a job he hated" and while I respect your opinion and support your right to express it, I do not see that it really adds anything to the discussion of Snape's character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
IMO, Snape and Regulus knew what was going on. It was public knowledge that Voldemort was murdering people - he was already referred to as You-Know-Who by Snape's fifth year. Did Snape think that was because he threw really wild or glamorous parties? Molly and Arthur Weasley were among many couples who eloped, because they were afraid, and did not know if they'd be murdered. Canon says there, and in GoF, that people feared for their lives, because they knew that people were disappearing and being murdered.
IMO, Snape knew exactly what the DEs were, but did not care, if he was going to get something out of it.
Well canon also gives us Regulus who was raised in a racist household and whose family were proud to have him join the Death Eaters yet he too changed his mind. Certainly neither Snape nor Regulus thought they were signing up for a Teddy Bears picnic, but the true extent of what was expected of them was unlikely to be obvious until they were in too deep to back out. Both Regulus and Snape ultimately gave their lives in the fight against Voldemort.

Quote:
So if Snape treats someone unjustly, it isn't a big deal?
No that is not what I said. Harry was at the receiving end of Snape's injustice and Harry forgave him. IMO this was because he regarded Snape's appalling behaviour in the classroom as not that big a deal when looked at in the context of Harry's struggle to defeat Voldemort.

Quote:
Forgiveness does not mean the behaviour was okay. Forgiveness means that Harry no longer holds it against Snape, and is no longer angry about it. Forgiveness does not mean that Harry thinks Snape was justified in bullying students, IMO.
As a practicing Catholic I am quite fully aware of what forgiveness is. I have not said that Snape's behaviour was okay. I think my posts make it quite clear that I do not think Snape's behaviour was okay. I have called Snape's behaviour unjust which I think is very far from "okay" so I am at a loss to understand how I gave the impression that I thought Snape's behaviour was okay.

Which brings us to the topic of forgiveness in regard to Snape. Harry forgave Snape which as FurryDice said means that he no longer holds it against Snape and is no longer angry about it. I would add that forgiveness means that while acknowledging that what Severus did to him was wrong, he does not hate Severus for it. IMO forgiveness is another big theme of the books. IMO Snape's biggest problem is that he cannot forgive. He cannot forgive James for bullying him, he cannot forgive Sirius for (as he thinks in PoA) betraying the Potters and he cannot forgive himself for his part in Lily's death. IMO he also cannot forgive Harry for surviving whern Lily died. The person who is hurt most by this inability to forgive is himself; of course it also hurts other people, because it turns him into a rather bitter man who is full of self loathing. If you compare this to Harry who has an extraordinary capacity to forgive, we see that Harry is a happy well adjusted adult and this is a direct result of his capacity to forgive. Ultimately the person who most benefits when you forgive someone is yourself. If Harry had not forgiven Severus then it would not have affected Snape at all because he was dead, but it would have left Harry bitter perhaps as bitter as Severus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I think that would be a matter of opinion
.
Perhaps. But there are plenty of canon references to other people being annoyed by her, they just don't show it in the same way as Severus. I haven't got my books handy but I have a feeling that when Snape calls her an insufferable-know-it-all it says that the pupils have all said that themselves. Of course that doesn't make Snape saying it okay, but IMO it does support the idea that it wasn't only Snape who found her annoying.


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Last edited by CathyWeasley; July 8th, 2011 at 9:58 pm.
 
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