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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3



 
 
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  #141  
Old December 6th, 2010, 6:57 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
To be fair, this is merely speculation, we don't know whether Snape did or did not judge Lily regards to those particular instances. The novels, with rare exception, are told via Harry's POV and not Snape's, which does limit what we see/know of other character thoughts/motivations.
For me, the memories showed that Snape did not judge her, or indeed anyone else. There is nothing in his memories/words to assign blame on Lily for the way she viewed the werewolf memory for example or for the way she broke off with Snape. Of course we can argue that Snape did not show all the memories of his entire relationship with Lily and so it is speculation and on that basis I would agree, but on the basis of what I have in canon and what I read of Snape; I feel he doesn't judge his friends. He simply accepts them for what they are.

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Regards the werewolf incident, what did he say to Lily? "You're not going to...I won't let you..." It's up in the air as to what exactly he meant here, of course, but to me hardly engenders the idea of total forgiveness/acceptance/non-judgement of Lily's viewpoint.
As her friend, Snape can warn her, why shouldn't he? If she can say how awful his Slytherin friends are and reasons he should not be hanging out with them, I presume he can safely say that Lily's good opinion of certain Gryffindor students could be misplaced, because Snape knows another side to them. He wouldn't be wrong imo. I am sorry, but I don't know how the forgiveness/acceptance/non-judgement is applicable here.

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To me, it appears he's very much at odds with what she has said - not without reason IMO because we "know" he knows more than he is allowed to confide on this particular subject - but to me he's not in agreement Lily's comment, not in acceptance of it either, and there's no signs of forgiving her that particular point of view IMO - just a proffered apology when she'd taken exception to his "I won't let you..." comment.
Of course he's at odds with what she said and probably hurt at what she didn't. I don't think Snape thought about forgiving Lily at that time. I think he was too anxious about their friendship which he felt was slipping away from him. He differed from her point of view and tried to make her see it, though he accepted it when she told him to back off. Had he not been anxious about their friendship, and assuming Lily spoke in the same manner, I think Snape would have been very, very hurt, but I still think he would have held his peace. I come away thinking that things like loyalty, friendship, honesty and straightforwardness means a lot to Snape, and he followed those principles all his life. It takes a lot for him to break off something he values, not just friendship but other things too imo. Even as a teenager on the threshold of becoming a DE, he was honest with Lily about his Slytherin friends; he was honest about his opinions of others to her, even if she did not agree with those and so on. He is also honest to Dumbledore on the hill, saying that he asked for Lily’s life in exchange for Harry’s; he could have lied, he need not have come at all; he could have sent an owl and spared himself the humiliation, but I think Snape was different in many ways and if he made mistakes, like he did, he was not afraid to confront those mistakes and try his best to rectify/undo them. Even if they took the rest of his life.

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But then again he also held a deep bitterness, per the author, for Lily's child because the babe was absolute proof that Lily preferred another man to him. And that too does not speak of complete acceptance/forgiveness of Lily - for her choices - to me either.
As per the author maybe; imo it's not reflected in the books, not when Snape showed Harry the boy he's supposed to have hated unfairly until the day he died, the scene where he meets Dumbledore on the hill, not when he shows the memory where he crying after Lily's death, saying he wants to die too.

I think he very much accepted her choices; he never badgered her to forgive him and give him one more chance once she told him it was all over, he accepted that Lily did not want him as a friend anymore and he respected that. There is no criticism from him on this, and not on anything else either really. JMO.

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Pottercast 2007"He [Alan Rickman as Severus Snape] needed to understand, I think, and does completely understand and did completely understand where this bitterness towards this boy, who's living proof of her preference for another man, came from."
This was for the movies firstly, and secondly, if it was for the Books as well, then, I think JKR should not have included some memories which falsify this theory imo.

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Regards to other possible friends, as hinted about Lucius Malfoy, we also don't know how Severus actually viewed him either. I'd say that Dumbledore is numbered among Severus's friends. Just my opinion. But he hardly accepted/forgave or otherwise failed to judge Dumbledore's comments/actions, IMO.
I am not sure Dumbledore was Snape's friend. I think Lucius was and while we don't have any friendly interaction between the two, no casual chit chats, I feel that Narcissa would not have come risking her life and Draco's and Lucius's to Snape, if she was not sure about Snape's relationship with Lucius. She calls him Lucius's old friend and I see nothing in the text to make that statement dubious or false.

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Or it is simply indicative that Narcissa had no one else to turn to in her desperation as she herself confesses to Severus. Who else could she reasonably turn to?
Surely not to Snape, if she feels Snape will report her to Voldemort. That would mean certain death for her and Draco and maybe Lucius too. She is not simply informing Snape about Voldemort's plans, she is asking him for help, help that is quite contrary to what Voldemort has ordered Draco to do imo.


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  #142  
Old December 6th, 2010, 8:00 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
For me, the memories showed that Snape did not judge her, or indeed anyone else. There is nothing in his memories/words to assign blame on Lily for the way she viewed the werewolf memory for example or for the way she broke off with Snape. Of course we can argue that Snape did not show all the memories of his entire relationship with Lily and so it is speculation and on that basis I would agree, but on the basis of what I have in canon and what I read of Snape; I feel he doesn't judge his friends. He simply accepts them for what they are.
I'd disagree with the 'nothing in his words' aspect, because he certainly appears to me to be upset with Lily in talking about the werewolf incident. I'd also disagree that he "accepts them for what they are" because I'm sorry, he called her 'Mudblood'. Yes, we know he was under extreme distress and it just slipped out, but there it is. It, to me, is a type of judgement on his part, whether he ever intended to utter it against her or not, is to me, entirely beside the point.

We also know how Pensieves work:
“Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?”

JKR: It’s reality.
The Pensieve doesn't give us the thoughts/emotions behind what we "see" or the views held by the person they come from, this includes all of the Prince's memories. So we IMO do not "know" what Snape is thinking, nor really what Lily is thinking either, none of that is disclosed in those memories. We "see" a conversation that took place between he and Lily. So again, it's down to pure speculation whether he judged her or not, whether he forgave her or not, etc...

So while I can understand your opinion, I still disagree.
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
As her friend, Snape can warn her, why shouldn't he? If she can say how awful his Slytherin friends are and reasons he should not be hanging out with them, I presume he can safely say that Lily's good opinion of certain Gryffindor students could be misplaced, because Snape knows another side to them. He wouldn't be wrong imo. I am sorry, but I don't know how the forgiveness/acceptance/non-judgement is applicable here.
Uh, what exactly was he warning her about? He'd already told her, from all appearances in the memory, that he suspected Lupin to be a werewolf. So what was he warning her about, exactly? That a particular Gryffindor quidditch player was a toerag? She already knew this too, as the memory indicates. So what exactly was he referring to when he said "You're not going to...I won't let you..."? Could it be that he was telling her "I won't let you think well of that boy and that incident?" More than likely IMO. Couple that with his not being able to "tell" her the truth about that particular incident, from his point of view, it had to be upsetting to him.
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
As per the author maybe; imo it's not reflected in the books, not when Snape showed Harry the boy he's supposed to have hated unfairly until the day he died, the scene where he meets Dumbledore on the hill, not when he shows the memory where he crying after Lily's death, saying he wants to die too.
IMO, I feel the books very clearly reflect Sev's opinion of an innocent child, Harry, both when he doesn't bother to ask the Dark Lord to spare Lily's child nor when he tell's Dumbledore to never tell Harry, because he couldn't bear it, for "Potter" to know. Along with the years of questionable behavior towards Harry while he was in school. I'm not saying Harry was blameless in some instances, far from it, but Snape tended to treat Harry horribly IMO.

By the time Harry sees those memories, Snape is dead. What did it matter anymore to him if Harry saw those memories when he knew he was in the throws of death and they simply didn't have the power to hurt him anymore? Plus, I don't think Harry would have trusted Snape had he not laid foundation to do so - showing the friendship with his mother, and his long held love for Lily, accomplished that IMO.
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I think he very much accepted her choices; he never badgered her to forgive him and give him one more chance once she told him it was all over, he accepted that Lily did not want him as a friend anymore and he respected that. There is no criticism from him on this, and not on anything else either really. JMO.
Perhaps if we had all of the Prince's memories that he held of Lily, I might agree. But we have a very limited amount of memories and therefore a limited amount of information. So I can't say, personally, whether he ever once badgered her into taking him back as a friend or not once she'd dropped him.
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
if it was for the Books as well, then, I think JKR should not have included some memories which falsify this theory imo.
It was for both, actually, and I guess it's down again to differing opinions once more. Some fans see that Snape was quite bitter about Harry to the end while many others do not. This doesn't mean he failed to act in order to protect Harry, no - far from it. His actions though were geared towards doing it for "Lily" and not altruistically doing things for the sake of doing the right things.

That's not a slap either. It was the fear of Lily's death and her literal death that wrought specific changes in the character of one Severus Snape. Which is why we get to hear from his own genuine shock and disbelief about "raising Harry for slaughter", his distaste at having to kill his friend {Dumbledore}, and his comment of how the ones who've died recently were "only the ones he couldn 't save". He did change quite significantly IMO.
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I am not sure Dumbledore was Snape's friend.
Yeah, I can understand that. To me though, Dumbledore was the only person that Snape didn't have to hide who he really was from, and that he felt Dumbledore trusted him implicitly - even when Mad-Eye is trying to convince him otherwise in GoF, the relaxed manner in which he quips to Dumbledore about "composing an epitaph". IMO, Snape considered Dumbledore a friend. Whether Dumbledore was a true friend to Snape, however, is something else entirely.
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think Lucius was and while we don't have any friendly interaction between the two, no casual chit chats, I feel that Narcissa would not have come risking her life and Draco's and Lucius's to Snape, if she was not sure about Snape's relationship with Lucius. She calls him Lucius's old friend and I see nothing in the text to make that statement dubious or false.
She does say that he's Lucius's "old friend"...but is that "old friend from school" or "old friend from early Death Eater days" or "used to be friends long ago, but not so much now"? And does that signify a special close bond or a casual passing acquaintance type friendship? You know what I mean? I think that there's room to wiggle regards to many friendships in the series.
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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Surely not to Snape, if she feels Snape will report her to Voldemort. That would mean certain death for her and Draco and maybe Lucius too. She is not simply informing Snape about Voldemort's plans, she is asking him for help, help that is quite contrary to what Voldemort has ordered Draco to do imo.
Why would she think that though, that he'd tell Voldemort? Even her own sister, who was completely unsympathetic to the danger Draco was in, even she knew and didn't rat Cissy out to her beloved Voldemort. I mean if Voldemort's very own trustworthy top lieutenant is keeping the secret, surely Snape could as well?


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Last edited by Kat_Suki; December 6th, 2010 at 8:03 am.
  #143  
Old December 6th, 2010, 9:25 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
She does say that he's Lucius's "old friend"...but is that "old friend from school" or "old friend from early Death Eater days" or "used to be friends long ago, but not so much now"? And does that signify a special close bond or a casual passing acquaintance type friendship?
But Narcissa seems rather sure of Spinner's End whereabouts in HBP, doesn't she? She also seems rather sure of the reception awaiting her - she merely knocks, without any defensive moves whatsoever.

Furthermore, Snape greets her with "Narcissa!...What a pleasant surprise!", not "Narcissa! How in Merlin's name did you get here?!".

He is on first-name basis with both Malfoys:
For the same reason that Avery, Yaxley, the Carrows, Greyback, Lucius" — he inclined his head slightly to Narcissa — "and many others did not attempt to find him."

(Bellatrix happens to call him "Snape" throughout that little chat, BTW).

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Why would she think that though, that he'd tell Voldemort? Even her own sister, who was completely unsympathetic to the danger Draco was in, even she knew and didn't rat Cissy out to her beloved Voldemort. I mean if Voldemort's very own trustworthy top lieutenant is keeping the secret, surely Snape could as well?
That particular top lieutenant was a blood relative:
"Cissy, your own sister? You wouldn't--"

And there is a world of a difference between "could" and "would": at that point, Narcissa has no idea whether Severus will agree to help her (which would increase the chances Snape not "ratting" regardless of his relationship with Malfoys, as Voldy would not be likely to react kindly to this kind of deal). If we adopt the theory Snape and Lucius were not as close as Narcissa suggests, she would be risking Draco's life even before he set out on his "mission" - it's simply illogical, given the reason for her visit to Spinner's.

Whether that particular stage of their friendship dates back to school days, return of Voldemort, or some years in between, we have no way of knowing, true. But at that particular point in time....

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Dumbledore trusted him implicitly
Apparently, wasn't the only one.


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  #144  
Old December 6th, 2010, 10:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
I think it is obvious from one of their dialogues seen in the pensive that he did not want to kill him.But I don't think he felt bad about doing it since he realised Dumbledore would die anyway and he pretty much following HIS plan.He might felt sad for his passing anyway.I don't know if they were the best of friends but they were definately close.
2. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I think there's good in Snape and there had always been.I think he is a good person and I know I may be biased.I think if he was given the chance he would turn against Voldemort, openly or as a spy.
3. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
They justify them up to a point.I understand why he acted the way he did but I still think he shouldn't be so harsh on poor Neville.
4. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I can't be sure.It's a part of the story that we are not given with much detail.I can't imagine the two of them being casual friends.And I don't know Snape would accept Dumbledore as a father figure.Both are great but I think their personalities don't really match.I think it was a weird relationship.I am sure that they cared for each other anyway.
5. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
Can't answer that yet since I haven't read many interviews and none of them mentioned Snape.Or at least I don't remember of it.
6. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
The fact that up to pretty much the last book we are given a character with a mystery, whose intentions are not clear.The pensive chapter gives us his true personality, his true motives and loyalties.
The reason there is so much controversy around his character is probably the fact that many still consider him a bad person, with no morals and believe that he belong with the dark lord's side whereas others think he is good person with a very unlucky life.
7. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
I would tell them he is a tortured soul, a brave man and someone you can't help but feel sympathy for.


  #145  
Old December 6th, 2010, 12:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
As per the author maybe; imo it's not reflected in the books, not when Snape showed Harry the boy he's supposed to have hated unfairly until the day he died, the scene where he meets Dumbledore on the hill, not when he shows the memory where he crying after Lily's death, saying he wants to die too.
I think that Snape's conflicting feelings toward Harry are reflected in the books. I doubt that JKR could have made it more plain, actually (without tipping over into hyperbole!)

The only thing I would quibble with is the ‘hating Harry until he died’ quote. I simply don’t see that in Snape’s death scene (and I would be disappointed if that really was the author’s intent). But I do think the bitterness Snape struggles with toward Harry (throughout the series) is genuine and not feigned. And it’s precisely that conflict between love and hate which help to make Snape such a fascinating and memorable character.

I do see the releasing of the memories as a sort of confession on Snape's part.

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I think he very much accepted her choices; he never badgered her to forgive him and give him one more chance once she told him it was all over, he accepted that Lily did not want him as a friend anymore and he respected that. There is no criticism from him on this, and not on anything else either really. JMO.
This makes Snape sound rather passive. Not the way I see him, at all.

IMO, he wasn’t prepared to accept that Lily had a point about the direction his life was going in – every time she raises the issue, he tries to deflect the subject. If he had really listened to Lily, he wouldn’t have gone ahead ultimately and joined the Death Eaters. Saying that ‘he accepted that Lily did not want him as a friend anymore’ makes it sound like Lily merely dumped him because she was fed up with him. As you know, that is not an interpretation of Lily's character I subscribe to. I believe that Lily’s concerns about Severus were genuine and had foundation. Sev is not a wronged innocent in that regard. In fact, her worst fears about him came true ...

Which, of course, is the story of his turning back and his redemption. Which is not to say that he still struggled with the darker side of his personality, e.g. his scary ability to hang onto old grudges (an ability he shares with quite a few other characters in the Potterverse, I hasten to add! He's in good company. )

On the subject of Snape's friendship with Lucius, this is not something I think about much. Perhaps that’s because I prefer not to think that Snape had a close friendship with a man like Lucius.

But clearly Lucius was a significant person in young Sev's life … otherwise JKR wouldn’t have shown us the older Lucius welcoming 11 year old Severus to the Slytherin table. That is an important little detail.

So, yep, I do think there is a clear implication in the text that Snape did have a close relationship of sorts with the Malfoys, otherwise Narcissa would never have trusted him enough to come to him for help.


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Last edited by Pearl_Took; December 6th, 2010 at 12:54 pm.
  #146  
Old December 6th, 2010, 1:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
I'd disagree with the 'nothing in his words' aspect, because he certainly appears to me to be upset with Lily in talking about the werewolf incident.
Of course he would be. He had not told her about the werewolf incident because he was, like the others involved in that incident forbidden to speak about it, yet Lily seemed to know and she was not unduly concerned about him. I think the words 'we're best friends aren't we'(not the exact words), is indicative of both wanting a reassurance that they were best friends and showing a hurt that she wasn't speaking like one at that moment imo.

But are you saying that he shouldn't be upset with her, if circumstances warranted it? Exhibiting natural emotions is not equal to saying that he was judgemental about Lily imo.

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I'd also disagree that he "accepts them for what they are" because I'm sorry, he called her 'Mudblood'. Yes, we know he was under extreme distress and it just slipped out, but there it is. It, to me, is a type of judgement on his part, whether he ever intended to utter it against her or not, is to me, entirely beside the point.
Point. He called her a Mudblood; he should not have called her one, or indeed anyone that name. But I disagree that makes him judgemental, because he came to apologise for his mistake (a word not uttered deliberately, but in extremely difficult circumstances), he never justified it. Had it been uttered deliberately, then that's different imo. But it wasn't. If he did call others by that name as Lily says he did, (for all you know Lily might have spoken in anger too; this accusation might have slipped out from her too) well she wasn't unduly upset about it until she was called one.

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The Pensieve doesn't give us the thoughts/emotions behind what we "see" or the views held by the person they come from, this includes all of the Prince's memories. So we IMO do not "know" what Snape is thinking, nor really what Lily is thinking either, none of that is disclosed in those memories. We "see" a conversation that took place between he and Lily. So again, it's down to pure speculation whether he judged her or not, whether he forgave her or not, etc...
That he did not judge her and he shrugged it off, is shown for me, by his behaviour towards her after this conversation in the same memory.

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Uh, what exactly was he warning her about?
Things we can't go into on this thread.

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Could it be that he was telling her "I won't let you think well of that boy and that incident?" More than likely IMO.
Sure he was trying to say that. He was almost killed for a joke, because a boy found him hanging around him irritating; he should not get angry/upset/furious about it? He should not want to tell Lily that there wasn't any need to think nicely about such boys who could lead you to get killed because you irritated them?

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Couple that with his not being able to "tell" her the truth about that particular incident, from his point of view, it had to be upsetting to him
What was the truth from Snape's point of view? Do you think it differed from the actual truth of what happened in such a way that made his point of view false? That his anger was misplaced with what he knew at that time?

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IMO, I feel the books very clearly reflect Sev's opinion of an innocent child, Harry, both when he doesn't bother to ask the Dark Lord to spare Lily's child.
But are you judging the DE Snape alone, or are you judging the Snape who grew into the bravest man Harry knew.

Snape has his lows; that he joined the DEs; that he went to Voldemort with half a Prophecy are the terrible lows and I don't think you will hear anyone defend that to be right. Snape made those terrible choices and he lived with the results of those choices for the rest of his life. I disagree about Snape not asking Voldemort for Harry's life. That is asking for death from Voldemort and it would not save Lily either. Had Snape asked Voldemort to spare the child who had the power to off him, Voldemort would have killed him and then gone after the Potters and killed them too. What Snape could ask of Voldemort he did. What he could not ask of Voldemort he placed in Dumbledore's hands imo.

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nor when he tell's Dumbledore to never tell Harry, because he couldn't bear it, for "Potter" to know
What's wrong about this? Why should he not want his help to remain private?

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Plus, I don't think Harry would have trusted Snape had he not laid foundation to do so - showing the friendship with his mother, and his long held love for Lily, accomplished that IMO.
Harry knew the difference between a truthful memory and a tampered one. Snape, instead of showing Harry the memories of his personal life, could have just as easily shown him more discussions with Dumbledore. That would have convinced Harry too. He need not have shown the personal memories he did imo.

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Yeah, I can understand that. To me though, Dumbledore was the only person that Snape didn't have to hide who he really was from, and that he felt Dumbledore trusted him implicitly - even when Mad-Eye is trying to convince him otherwise in GoF, the relaxed manner in which he quips to Dumbledore about "composing an epitaph". IMO, Snape considered Dumbledore a friend.
I think they had a good working relationship and Snape certainly trusted Dumbledore and Dumbledore, Snape. But I don't think they were friends. I don't think Snape let him in (just because he knew a lot about Snape), and I don't think Dumbledore let Snape in either. Friendship has to be a two way thingy, even between Snape and Dumbledore.

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Whether Dumbledore was a true friend to Snape, however, is something else entirely.
I think Dumbledore regarded Snape very highly and I think he absolutely trusted Snape; I think he was on Snape's side in Snape's differences against Gryffindors (when they were all students), but I don't think they were friends in the true sense of the word.

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Posted by Pearl_Took
I think that Snape's conflicting feelings toward Harry are reflected in the books. I doubt that JKR could have made it more plain, actually (without tipping over into hyperbole!)
The thing is, I see all of Snape's interaction with Harry with Snape's background as spy, so for me I think the incidents are coloured in that light and while I can acknowledge/agree that Snape was nasty, I can't really agree that Snape was nasty because he wanted to be nasty to James Potter's son; that he bullied because he was jealous of Harry being James's son and there wasn't a thing Harry or Neville could do about it (mind you, he probably was jealous of what he lost; what I disagree is he took that jealousy on a child that had nothing to do with it; that makes Snape a small man and a coward and one of the things I think Snape wasn't, was a coward) and he hurt Harry because he found pleasure in doing so.

I see his actions as a teacher interwoven with those of a spy and I think this may be one of the reasons I don't attribute Snape's interactions with Harry or indeed any other student as cruel. JMO

Sorry for the long post.


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  #147  
Old December 6th, 2010, 1:58 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
But Narcissa seems rather sure of Spinner's End whereabouts in HBP, doesn't she? She also seems rather sure of the reception awaiting her - she merely knocks, without any defensive moves whatsoever.

Furthermore, Snape greets her with "Narcissa!...What a pleasant surprise!", not "Narcissa! How in Merlin's name did you get here?!".
He also addressed Pettigrew by his nickname, Wormtail, though I hardly think it means they're bosom buddies. I do note that while Bella never takes the time to call Severus by anything but his surname, he certainly addresses Bella as Bellatrix and yet they also do not appear as bosom buddies.

Quite frequently in this series we see that characters are simply referred to via surnames and this habit does not necessarily denote good friendship or lack thereof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
And there is a world of a difference between "could" and "would": at that point, Narcissa has no idea whether Severus will agree to help her (which would increase the chances Snape not "ratting" regardless of his relationship with Malfoys, as Voldy would not be likely to react kindly to this kind of deal). If we adopt the theory Snape and Lucius were not as close as Narcissa suggests, she would be risking Draco's life even before he set out on his "mission" - it's simply illogical, given the reason for her visit to Spinner's.
I disagree, Dags. It's not simply illogical and the reason I believe that is that we clearly already have it stated in canon that Narcissa was taking a terrible risk with her son's life and it is Severus that gives it to us, remember?

"I am one of the few the Dark Lord has told. Nevertheless, had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been guilty of great treachery to the Dark Lord."

Narcissa hoped that Snape was in on the plan, she didn't know for sure, heck even Bellatrix didn't know if he was or not. Narcissa took a horrible gamble with her child's life by approaching Snape as she did. But then, she was absolutely desperate to save Draco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Whether that particular stage of their friendship dates back to school days, return of Voldemort, or some years in between, we have no way of knowing, true. But at that particular point in time....
I'm currently of the mind that it was from school days and that's based on how I'm reading what Narcissa says. Instead of greeting Severus and saying "you have always been a dear friend of our family, Severus" instead she phrases it thus "You are Lucius's old friend". That indicates {to me at least} that while they all have a passing acquaintance from over the years, it's Lucius/Sev that seemed to have a connection more than the others. And then, what level of 'connection' or 'friendship' is tossed in the mix.

Of course, that is simply my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daggerstone View Post
Apparently, wasn't the only one.
Ba dump ching.


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  #148  
Old December 6th, 2010, 2:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Harry knew the difference between a truthful memory and a tampered one. Snape, instead of showing Harry the memories of his personal life, could have just as easily shown him more discussions with Dumbledore. That would have convinced Harry too. He need not have shown the personal memories he did imo.
I would even say, showing the personal memories could have had the opposite effect. So far as Snape knew, Harry had no idea of Snape's responsibility in the murder of Harry's parents. Yet Snape revealed this to Harry, among the "personal" memories. To me this suggests the giving of the memories was as much about telling Harry the full, true story, as about engendering Harry's trust for Albus's purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
He also addressed Pettigrew by his nickname, Wormtail, though I hardly think it means they're bosom buddies. I do note that while Bella never takes the time to call Severus by anything but his surname, he certainly addresses Bella as Bellatrix and yet they also do not appear as bosom buddies.
If you quote the whole section to put these things in context, the difference is apparent. He is cordial to Narcissa (her arrival is a "pleasant surprise"), curt to Bella (her presence is acknowledged with her name and a nod), and contemptuous of Peter (whom he causes to serve him and then dismisses, with a hex to make it certain). Concluding Cissy is a friend, Bella is a disliked colleague to whom he must display surface respect, and Peter is someone to whom he will not display even that token respect despite their common service to Volemort, seems natural to me from what we are shown.


Quote:
"I am one of the few the Dark Lord has told. Nevertheless, had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been guilty of great treachery to the Dark Lord."

Narcissa hoped that Snape was in on the plan, she didn't know for sure, heck even Bellatrix didn't know if he was or not. Narcissa took a horrible gamble with her child's life by approaching Snape as she did. But then, she was absolutely desperate to save Draco.
This would only be a risk if Snape reported her. Instead he gave her the cover she needed, by establishing he already knew. That Cissy came to him, suggested she believed he would not betray her, regardless of his state of knowledge.

Quote:
That indicates {to me at least} that while they all have a passing acquaintance from over the years, it's Lucius/Sev that seemed to have a connection more than the others. And then, what level of 'connection' or 'friendship' is tossed in the mix.
I agree his primary connection is to Lucius, but he is a friend of the family not just from school days, as I see it. There are two bits of supporting evidence. 1) Cissy knows where he lives (Bella does not). 2) Draco early in the series already has a high opinion of Snape - garnered from his father, I would guess.


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  #149  
Old December 6th, 2010, 3:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But are you saying that he shouldn't be upset with her, if circumstances warranted it? Exhibiting natural emotions is not equal to saying that he was judgemental about Lily imo.
If circumstances warranted? No. This is hardly Hermione and the Firebolt betrayal, is it? Circumstances didn't warrant his upset this time, IMO. He was upset and deflecting the conversation away from his Death Eater friends that Lily was grilling him on. But then, while trying to deflect away from his friends, he throws in that lot and questions her about them when they clearly were not her friends, not from what we see in the memories. So why do it? Not out of concern for her safety, IMO, because he'd already warned her previously. Which leaves jealousy as a motivator, IMO. A normal everyday emotion, we all feel it and we have confirm from the author that Lily's future husband and Sev suspected the other of having feelings for Lily and that is what was behind a lot of their issues with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Point. He called her a Mudblood; he should not have called her one, or indeed anyone that name. But I disagree that makes him judgemental, because he came to apologise for his mistake (a word not uttered deliberately, but in extremely difficult circumstances), he never justified it. Had it been uttered deliberately, then that's different imo. But it wasn't. If he did call others by that name as Lily says he did, (for all you know Lily might have spoken in anger too; this accusation might have slipped out from her too) well she wasn't unduly upset about it until she was called one.
Actually, it's been my personal experience that when things pop out under duress is when you tend to get down to the real opinions, the things that eat at you, but which most people otherwise bite their tongue rather than say it in mixed company.

In this instance, we know he didn't mean to call her that. He was under great stress at the time and there is no denying that. He did regret it, not just that day, but the rest of his life.

But as to whether Lily not being unduly upset until it was directed at her? Opinion. Hadn't yet heard him say that terrible word in front of her or just heard rumors of it? Entirely possible, yet still opinion. Made excuses for him and his supposed behaviors for years? That's not opinion, it's factually stated in canon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
What was the truth from Snape's point of view? Do you think it differed from the actual truth of what happened in such a way that made his point of view false? That his anger was misplaced with what he knew at that time?
False, no. Entirely accurate? No again. He heard what was spoken of that event to the Headmaster. That would reveal certain aspects he would have been unaware of, but once those things were known, he chose to overlook or disbelieve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But are you judging the DE Snape alone, or are you judging the Snape who grew into the bravest man Harry knew.
Snape, from start to finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I disagree about Snape not asking Voldemort for Harry's life...What Snape could ask of Voldemort he did.
He asked for Lily's life to be spared in exchange for the life of her child, the admission of which garnered Dumbledore's "You disgust me!" comment. Snape could have valued the life of an innocent child more than his own. That was not beyond him, he certainly valued Lily's life more than his own. He didn't even try, IMO, not until Dumbledore shamed him into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
What's wrong about this? Why should he not want his help to remain private?
Private yes. But it goes to what we were discussing, i.e. Snape's bitterness towards Harry. It was a bitter blow that 'Potter' would know that Snape had loved Lily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Harry knew the difference between a truthful memory and a tampered one. Snape, instead of showing Harry the memories of his personal life, could have just as easily shown him more discussions with Dumbledore. That would have convinced Harry too. He need not have shown the personal memories he did imo.
Er....how would Snape be aware that Harry knew to distinguish memories from tampered memories? He didn't know that for a certainty at all, "we" the reader knew this because we see Harry "learn" that difference with Slughorn but Snape was nowhere within that frame of knowledge. All Snape knew for sure was that Harry had a penchant to dive into people's memories. So all Snape had to do was give memories and any would do? But why would Harry trust Snape to stay long enough to watch the bits with he and Dumbledore if not for establishing his love for Lily Potter - something he shared in common with Harry - and therefore lead into why Dumbledore trusted him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer
I would even say, showing the personal memories could have had the opposite effect. So far as Snape knew, Harry had no idea of Snape's responsibility in the murder of Harry's parents. Yet Snape revealed this to Harry, among the "personal" memories.
Harry did know about Snape's involvement regards to his parents murder, he learned of the prophecy in OotP and learned of Snape being the one to overhear it and thus convey it to Voldemort in HBP, his conversation with Trelawney. We even see Harry rant at Dumbledore about it.

This wasn't news to Harry. The fact that Snape attempted to save Lily from the death warrant the Dark Lord had issued was a news flash, though. The vision of he and Dumbledore, talking of saving the Potters, was proof to Harry that Dumbledore's belief was correct: that Snape bitterly regretted conveying that prophecy to the Dark Lord and that he had no idea that Voldemort would interpret it and then intend to kill an innocent family because of it, especially that the family in question was that of Lily Evans Potter.


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  #150  
Old December 6th, 2010, 3:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
This wasn't news to Harry.
It was so far as Snape knew, as I indicated. Harry learned this new fact less than an hour before he left for the Cave with Albus, an event that was followed shortly by Snape's killing of Albus.

When Albus's portrait speaks to Snape to advise him on giving the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry, he warns Snape Harry may be upset because of what Snape did to George. To me this strongly suggests Albus never told Snape Harry had learned of his involvement in the Prophecy, since among the things Harry has learned about Snape recently, surely this latter would be expected to excite Harry's hatred rather more?


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  #151  
Old December 6th, 2010, 3:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat Suki
Narcissa hoped that Snape was in on the plan, she didn't know for sure, heck even Bellatrix didn't know if he was or not. Narcissa took a horrible gamble with her child's life by approaching Snape as she did. But then, she was absolutely desperate to save Draco.
Snape and Narcissa were both gambling big time in that scene, but that doesn't rule out them being friends over the years. JMO

For one thing, Draco seems to know Snape and thinks highly of him from day one in Book One.

For another thing, Umbridge said that Lucius "spoke highly" of Snape.

For another, Snape shakes his head when Harry tries to tell Fudge that Lucius was in the graveyard as a Death Eater in GoF. I'm sure Snape knew that Lucius was going to be punished for getting the Diary-Crux destroyed, which is alluded to by Dumbledore in King's Cross, I believe.

The way I see it, the Malfoys were not good people, but Snape didn't have many friends and they accepted him despite his blood status (which Narcissa doesn't seem to care about at all). Also, staying close to the Malfoys was a good idea over the years because he could glean information for Dumbledore.

And Narcissa not only mentions them being friends, but says that Snape was "the only one." We can speculate on what that means, but perhaps she figures he is the only one of the DEs who wouldn't throw Lucius or Draco under the bus. Or he was the only one who didn't laugh at Lucius for getting tossed in jail. Or he was the only one she could trust anymore - my first impression.

And I think Snape had real compassion for Narcissa in the Unbreakable Vow scene, imo. I never expected to be sympathetic towards Narcissa, but she showed over the course of HBP and DH that she had a heart, and I think that appealed to Snape as well. It's not good that Narcissa trapped Snape into agreeing to kill Dumbledore, but as it turned out, Dumbledore wanted him to do it anyway.

So the good impulse to help the Malfoys (which I believe came from friendship) and look out for Draco set alot of other things in motion, including Harry being Master of the Elder Wand. Snape took the fall for Draco when Voldemort killed him. But that would have happened whether Snape was Master of the Wand or not because, like Draco, he wouldn't have known he might be Master. JMO (Edit: Sorry to be confusing in my original post - Snape never knew about the Elder Wand and I didn't mean to imply that).


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Last edited by silver ink pot; December 6th, 2010 at 3:39 pm.
  #152  
Old December 6th, 2010, 4:14 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
For another, Snape shakes his head when Harry tries to tell Fudge that Lucius was in the graveyard as a Death Eater in GoF.
Does he? I only ever remember Harry noticing Snape making a "sudden movement" when he mentions Lucius's name, then his "eyes fly back to Fudge." I may just be mis-remembering though.


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  #153  
Old December 6th, 2010, 5:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

You remember correctly, FA13. I think SIP's point, though, is that the gesture (whatever it was) was elicited by the mention of Lucius's name, suggesting concern for or interest in Lucius specifically.


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  #154  
Old December 6th, 2010, 6:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

From the Harry Potter thread
Quote:
posted by FurryDice
The alternative to which may well have been Azkaban, which would also have meant no freedom, and Dementors 24/7.
Snape came to Dumbledore expecting to be killed (canon). When he wasn’t killed at once, he probably thought (this is an assumption) he would be Kissed. Both didn’t happen, but Snape imo did not come prepared for freedom.

Quote:
Any canon to show that Snape felt remorse for James' death?
HBP – The Seer Overheard"Don't tell me it was a mistake, sir, he was listening at the door!"
"Please let me finish," Dumbledore waited until Harry had nodded curtly, then went on. "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did no know -- he had no possible way of knowing -- which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father --"
Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter.
"He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?"
"You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --""But he's a very good Occlumens, isn't he, sir?" said Harry, whose voice was shaking with the effort of keeping it steady. "And isn't Voldemort convinced that Snape's on his side, even now? Professor...how can you be sure Snape's on our side?
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely."
bold mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Circumstances didn't warrant his upset this time, IMO.
I disagree. I think nearly getting killed for annoying another student would make anyone furious and if their best friend felt that was nothing big, I think one would feel very upset and I think Snape did too.

Quote:
Made excuses for him and his supposed behaviors for years? That's not opinion, it's factually stated in canon.
Made excuses for his behaviour? Or simply made excuses for him? I lean towards the latter because bad behaviour is not stated, but Lily goes on to say that she’s sure that Snape is going to become a DE once he leaves School, which at that time is speaking unfairly in anger, much as Snape spoke that morning by speaking a word he should not have.

Quote:
He asked for Lily's life to be spared in exchange for the life of her child, the admission of which garnered Dumbledore's "You disgust me!" comment. Snape could have valued the life of an innocent child more than his own. That was not beyond him, he certainly valued Lily's life more than his own. He didn't even try, IMO, not until Dumbledore shamed him into it.
My point was whether he valued Harry’s life or not, he could not have asked Voldemort to spare it. That was why he came to Dumbledore imo.

Quote:
Private yes. But it goes to what we were discussing, i.e. Snape's bitterness towards Harry. It was a bitter blow that 'Potter' would know that Snape had loved Lily.
I’d agree if Snape himself did not reveal it to Harry.

Quote:
Er....how would Snape be aware that Harry knew to distinguish memories from tampered memories?
By viewing Slughorn’s tampered memory, which Dumbledore showed him and seeing other memories that were not tampered.

Quote:
But why would Harry trust Snape to stay long enough to watch the bits with he and Dumbledore?
I don’t think Harry knew the answer to that himself; not at that point. But trusting Snape was something Harry did implicitly until the end of HBP, when he saw Snape kill Dumbledore. Plus he also liked the Prince, whom he thought of as a friend and came to know was Snape. I think Harry felt betrayed by Snape (when he killed Dumbledore), because he trusted Snape so much. Just like Sirius trusted Snape not to misuse what he saw in Harry’s mind in the Occlumency lessons, Harry trusted Snape enough to tell him that Sirius was captured by Voldemort and that he saw that vision. He expected Snape to help, even after he saw the SWM.

I think Dumbledore’s trust of Snape may have seeped into Harry, at an unconscious level from day one, while he resisted, he learnt from PS/SS that Snape was on his side; it was only after HBP, Harry wanted to kill Snape; it was truly personal for Harry; he felt betrayed by Snape. After he saw the memories he realised Snape was Dumbledore's man as much as he was. He throws that word at Voldemort; that was what he called himself to Scrimgeour in HBP, and in DH, in the Final Battle that is what he calls Snape – Dumbledore’s man. He identifies with Snape in that Hall, in front of Voldemort, in front of a hundred others. But, from the end of HBP until Snape's death in the Shack, Harry was struggling with what he thought was Snape's betrayal as much as Dumbledore’s (when he came to know about Ariana and Grindelwald). When Snape ordered him to take the memories, Harry automatically obeyed.

Harry reached the Head's office after he saw the dead at the Great Hall and he actually plunges into Snape's memories hoping to get away from his own grief. So I don’t think there was any doubt Harry would not see the memories. Once he started watching and he realised what he was seeing, which was Snape's life story and featured his parents and Sirius, I don’t even think it occurred to Harry to doubt him at all. And from the very first scene Harry is on Snape's side, and as Harry’s reactions unfold of the TPT, it is clear he is identifying himself with Snape in a big way, the effect of which is shown in the Epilogue imo.

Quote:
if not for establishing his love for Lily Potter - something he shared in common with Harry -
Because Harry never knew Snape loved Lily, and Snape could well establish his trust with other memories too imo.


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  #155  
Old December 6th, 2010, 11:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
You remember correctly, FA13. I think SIP's point, though, is that the gesture (whatever it was) was elicited by the mention of Lucius's name, suggesting concern for or interest in Lucius specifically.
Right. Which goes to what I was saying, if there was friendship, it was Sev/Lucius and not necessarily a close one but possibly just one from school.

And SIP, I get that Lucius spoke to Umbridge and said something nice about Snape. How much, though, was in order to destabilize Dumbledore, lull Umbridge into a false sense of acceptance of Snape, and/or because he was a DE working behind the scenes and having private conversations with Fudge? IMO, some of all of the above. So, whatever he conveyed regards to Severus is highly suspect, IMO.

Now, for Draco however, it's obvious that Snape was spoken well of. But if he really were that close a friend, why wasn't he invited round during summer holidays? Of course, we really don't know that he wasn't, it's just that to me Draco would know him on a personal basis, rather than just 'my father speaks highly of you' basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I disagree. I think nearly getting killed for annoying another student would make anyone furious and if their best friend felt that was nothing big, I think one would feel very upset and I think Snape did too.
I can respect that. But was Lily in danger? Yes, he had an absolute right to be upset, his hands were tied and his friend only knew part of the incident. But was she in danger? No, not IMO, and it is later pointed out in the scene - "I just don't want you to be made a fool of---He fancies you, James Potter fancies you! - it's a jealousy issue that's the motivator - again why Severus said "You're not going to---I won't let you" - and not concern for her welfare, IMO, and that's why I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Made excuses for his behaviour? Or simply made excuses for him? I lean towards the latter because bad behaviour is not stated, but Lily goes on to say that she’s sure that Snape is going to become a DE once he leaves School, which at that time is speaking unfairly in anger, much as Snape spoke that morning by speaking a word he should not have.
I just don't see Lily apologizing to her friends because Snape refuses to wash his hair. So why make excuses for him? The fact that she calmly tells him "you've chosen your path and I've chosen mine" to me indicates that she had some type of knowledge regards to his behavior and choices. Why wouldn't she, she'd been his best friend for more than five years?

As for his becoming a Death Eater, some may feel it was unfair of her to have made that comment, but it was hardly inaccurate. Not from what we know. We also have Rowling's comments:
Bloomsbury LiveChatWell, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the Dark Side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.
This too, shows his choices/intent while at school - after the fact, yes - but it bolsters what we have seen of that instance of Severus's memory. It also shows us that given time, he might have straightened himself out. He always had that potential, IMO. As it was, the catalyst for change was Lily being in danger and then, Lily's death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
By viewing Slughorn’s tampered memory, which Dumbledore showed him and seeing other memories that were not tampered.
And when did that happen? Because the only one we see viewing those memories is Harry/Dumbledore. Now, one could argue that Severus participated in handing memories to Dumbledore, sure. We know for a fact that he did, I suspect more than once.

Do we ever see him Pensieve diving with Dumbledore, though? Not that I'm aware. So again, how would Severus have that knowledge of what Harry knew regards to tampered memories, if it's not established Snape had any knowledge about it in the books or interviews? Or is it just speculation on your part? I can totally understand the idea, but I disagree with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I don’t think Harry knew the answer to that himself; not at that point.
Right and I agree, to a point. That's why I feel that it was necessary to use his memories and love for Lily to keep Harry there. Snape understood that about Harry IMO. And if he grabbed Harry's attention long enough to keep him from losing interest it would be the perfect lead in to why Dumbledore always trusted Snape even when Harry didn't, or had since lost faith in Dumbledore's assurances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Because Harry never knew Snape loved Lily, and Snape could well establish his trust with other memories too imo.
Yeah, we know this. Why was it important to establish it to Harry though, if not to grab his attention and garner his trust?


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  #156  
Old December 7th, 2010, 1:08 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat Suki
And SIP, I get that Lucius spoke to Umbridge and said something nice about Snape. How much, though, was in order to destabilize Dumbledore, lull Umbridge into a false sense of acceptance of Snape, and/or because he was a DE working behind the scenes and having private conversations with Fudge? IMO, some of all of the above. So, whatever he conveyed regards to Severus is highly suspect, IMO.
We'll just have to disagree. I see no reason why Lucius would tell Umbridge anything good about Snape unless he believed it himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat Suki
Now, for Draco however, it's obvious that Snape was spoken well of. But if he really were that close a friend, why wasn't he invited round during summer holidays? Of course, we really don't know that he wasn't, it's just that to me Draco would know him on a personal basis, rather than just 'my father speaks highly of you' basis.
There's no canon about what Snape did in the summer, so nothing rules out Snape visiting Malfoy Manor, imo. Harry notices that Snape seemed to like Draco as well, which implies that he had been around the boy before he came to Hogwarts. Just my opinion.

Dumbledore knew alot about what the other DEs thought of Harry after the Dark Lord was vanquished the first time, and Snape goes through it all again with Bellatrix in HBP - how they thought Harry would be the next Dark Lord and all that. So I think Snape learned a great deal about their curiousity towards Harry through his dealings with the Malfoys.


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  #157  
Old December 7th, 2010, 1:53 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Right. Which goes to what I was saying, if there was friendship, it was Sev/Lucius and not necessarily a close one but possibly just one from school.
I'd say this supports a closer and more recent friendship than one that did not continue after school. The incident in which Snape reacts to mention of Lucius's name occurs more than 20 tears after Lucius finishes Hogwarts. Further, it takes place at a time when Snape must be preoccupied with his own problems. He has felt the Dark Mark burn, and anticipates returning to face Voldemort shortly after that scene.


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  #158  
Old December 7th, 2010, 5:12 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

Several thoughts on several points, in no particular order...

1. Having been a viciously bullied child myself, it causes deep emotional scars that invade all your later relationships and attempts at same. Probably the only people that an adult bullied child can form adult relationships with are other adult bullied children; otherwise we tend to keep to ourselves and view the rest of the world with a severely jaundiced eye, always wondering what the ulterior motive is of someone reaching out to us in perceived kindness... so I can understand Severus' snarkiness, aloofness, and need to display his superiority. It's a defense mechanism that no doubt became automatic after 7 years of torture at the hands of the Marauders. I have it myself, and it's been 35 years since I was in school... yes, I know that's projecting myself onto the character, but there it is.

2. Severus' reaction to Harry in the first book is to Harry's "fame", and Severus no doubt feels the need to step on it a bit, in an effort to keep this Potter from becoming another "annoying toerag". Another thought that just crossed my mind... perhaps he is also trying to beat Harry down a bit, so that he will be more likely to slide under Voldemort's radar. The match is more discreet than the bonfire, you know...

As for his treatment of Neville, Neville says it best in CoS: "And everyone knows I'm almost a Squib." Squibs have no business at Hogwart's, and Severus (being Slytherin) is perhaps more adamant about this than most. Of course, as time went on and it became apparent that Neville was not a Squib, just repressed with no self-confidence, it also became apparent he had no talent for Potions and should have stopped taking it. Severus would have not wanted an untalented student in Potions -- think of the waste of materials, time, and the danger.

3. Harry's thought on Severus as related to his son: I think he mentioned that one of the headmasters was a Slytherin and was the bravest man he knew in an effort to explain to Al that you can be a Slytherin and still be on the side of what's Right. To me, Right is not always equivalent with Good. I would far rather be Right.

4. I don't really see Snape as bullying his students -- I see him as being an extremely strict instructor, who doesn't put up with any sort of foolishness in his class. Given his subject and the potentially explosive nature of same, I can understand that. I was once a TA for Chemistry 101 lab, and I was tougher than nails. I'd throw people out for not having their hair pulled back... imagine what I'd do if they didn't follow the instructions for whatever they were doing that day.

5. My mental Severus is tall, maybe 5'10 or so, black fine straight hair, which can look greasy, slim and toned. The face has always been sort of a cross between Gary Oldman, Alan Rickman, and Jonathan Pryce (Mr. Dark in Something Wicked This Way Comes) -- a thin, angular, sensitive yet closed face, with dark eyes. I was very pleased to see that the movie Severus matched my mental Severus...

6. Did Severus "badger" Lily to be his friend again? Doubtful. By the time the breach occurred, he had been tormented so thoroughly by the Marauders and by his early childhood that he had learned a No meant No. He would not have been able to bring himself to petition her again -- by rejecting his apology, she rejected him forever. So he simply had to love her from afar. He would never have sought rapprochement again.

7. Is Severus friends with Lucius Malfoy, or indeed with anyone? Doubtful. Setting aside the age difference, which as they grew older would have mattered less, someone with Severus' background is very unlikely to form friendships. Acquaintances, alliances, respect for superiors -- certainly. But not friendships. As for why Narcissa came to him to protect Draco -- Severus is head of Slytherin House, he is Draco's favorite teacher, and he is also Voldemort's stated right-hand man. Who better to get to protect her only son? Narcissa is simply obeying her maternal instinct in a distinctly Slytherin way.

As for Dumbledore, I think the closest Severus could come to a relationship with him would be as a high-ranking subordinate.

This of course is not to say Severus can't love -- he can, and deeply, but he is afraid to express it, or form relationships based on it. His relationships are based on respect, fear, and good ol' Slytherin expediency -- what can I get out of this relationship? He doesn't do this to hurt anyone purposely, it is simply the way he thinks.

8. Is Severus' soul whole after killing Dumbledore? Yes. In fact, I believe that healing to the point that he can understand the concept of mercy proves his soul is intact. Mercy flows from love; Severus killed Dumbledore to prevent a more painful death by torture or from the Horcrux curse.

9. I think I'll finish this up by answering the question of summarizing Severus to someone who had never read the series:

Don't take him as he appears at first -- he is a man of loyalty, bravery and insight, but he's crippled by his early experiences and by his current circumstances. He's deeply flawed, but redeems himself in the end.


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Last edited by SadiraSnape; December 7th, 2010 at 3:55 pm.
  #159  
Old December 7th, 2010, 5:37 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I see no reason why Lucius would tell Umbridge anything good about Snape unless he believed it himself.
Then we'll agree to disagree, because Lucius has tried before to destabilize Dumbledore, both he and Snape were Death Eaters {Snape having renewed that association at Dumbledore's behest}, and the subsequent confidence to Umbridge from Malfoy regards to Snape along with Malfoy's jingling his money bags for Fudge at the Ministry just prior to Umbridge's appointment is more than enough, IMO, to question the motive of one Lucius Malfoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
So I think Snape learned a great deal about their curiousity towards Harry through his dealings with the Malfoys.
Certainly possible.

I do question, though, why Draco would have to tell his father that Snape was the best teacher at Hogwarts {CoS} rather than Lucius not being aware of it himself to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
The incident in which Snape reacts to mention of Lucius's name occurs more than 20 tears after Lucius finishes Hogwarts. Further, it takes place at a time when Snape must be preoccupied with his own problems.
While the friendship occurred at school that long ago {IMO}, we know that Snape continued his Death Eater duties until the time that Lily was murdered. So there'd by some type of acquaintanceship, IMO, between Snape/Lucius strictly through serving the Dark Lord - and of course he'd lost power 13 years ago.

There could also be a different motive to Snape's sudden movement, not one of "Oh, my old friend Lucius" but "Yeah, he was/is a Death Eater". Fudge, after all, was banging on about how Malfoy had been cleared of those charges years ago. Or, conversely, he could have been thinking "my friend" as speculated and simply be startled at how quickly Malfoy returned to the Dark Lord. In fact, perhaps, just to play devil's advocate, it was literal concern ... perhaps Snape was aware that the Dark Lord's possession {diary} which had been entrusted to Malfoy and yet was destroyed in CoS, perhaps he was fearful for Malfoy...?

I dunno. We have people called "old friends" within the context of the story, but that relationship generally isn't shown to be a close one, with a few noted exceptions, IMO.


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  #160  
Old December 7th, 2010, 8:20 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.3

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
You remember correctly, FA13. I think SIP's point, though, is that the gesture (whatever it was) was elicited by the mention of Lucius's name, suggesting concern for or interest in Lucius specifically.
Oh, thanks. That's a good intepretation of his actions.


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