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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #161  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 8:16 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
That he became a DE later should not IMO be a yardstick to judge him at a time he was not one. He was, for example, not even part of the prank played by Avery and Mulciber IMO. And there is no canon to suggest he was thinking about joining the DEs once he left school. What do we have apart from Lily's angry words where she assumes what Snape wanted to be and leaves IMO. What are those words based on?

Snape was not allowed to answer by Lily. Maybe if she had allowed him to answer and if he had agreed with her words, then she was right. But as the break up scene is now, there is only Lily's opinion; no facts to go along with it IMO.

1) Does Lily accuse Snape of playing evil pranks?
2) Does Lily accuse Snape of practising the dark arts?
3) Does Lily say that she does not like his (supposed) fascination of Voldemort and his DEs?

She does not. There is nothing in canon except Lily's opinion, which remains as an opinion only, because she did not allow Snape to answer IMO.

DH - TPT"...I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just--"
"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater Friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."
"No--listen, I didn't mean--"
"--to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone else of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"
He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole...




There is nothing in canon to suggest Snape was planning to be a DE at the time of the SWM either IMO.



What is this assumption based on? This is based on Lily' opinion, on her thoughts and I don't agree that her thoughts and opinions are facts. Sirius, for example said Snape was a DE in OOTP (Occlumency), when everyone including Harry knew he was a spy for the Order. Would Sirius' statement make Snape a DE in OOTP?



In canon there is no evidence to suggest Snape was thinking of being a DE at the time of the SWM IMO.



I think it was because he was too shocked and perhaps even betrayed by a girl he thought knew him inside out. I think he was utterly taken aback by her words and her thoughts and before he could collect himself enough to speak his side, she was gone IMO.
No Snape was not a DE at the time. Lily never accused him of being one. She said that he couldn't wait to leave school and join up. He did just that when he left school. In canon there is no evidence that Lily was going to join the Order, but given the kind of girl she was, who's surprised she did?
At the time Snape was a schoolboy, if he wanted to show her she was wrong, well he had time to plan a different career path. But he didn't, he did just what she said he wanted to do.


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  #162  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 8:28 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape was not allowed to answer by Lily. Maybe if she had allowed him to answer and if he had agreed with her words, then she was right. But as the break up scene is now, there is only Lily's opinion; no facts to go along with it IMO.
Honestly, why are we acting like Snape should have even needed all this time to answer? If Snape was really such a great friend to Lily, his best friend, a Muggleborn, why on EARTH should we expect him to have all this time explaining why Lily's accusations were wrong? Shouldn't we expect him to vehemently deny her statement? Instead it's okay for him to ho-hum about his answer and Lily should have been forgiving? Also, he had time to answer...which is why it's described that he was silent for a moment. He could have used that moment to say, "No, I DON'T want to be a Death Eater." He didn't, end of story.

His silence proved his guilt, and it simply adds up and makes sense when one takes into consideration his future actions and poor decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
There is nothing in canon to suggest Snape was planning to be a DE at the time of the SWM either IMO.
The fact that he is schmoozing with people who, by the time we read DH, we KNOW become Death Eaters, he was practicing dark arts and excusing horrible behavior by someone we KNOW becomes a death eater, called Lily a Mudblood and (according to Lily) has used it in previous ocassions and didn't deny Lily's accusation that he wanted to become a DE...the text isn't supposed to blatantly say, "and this, this, and this is what prompted Snape to become a Death Eater." That's insulting to the readers intelligence. Based on what we know going into the Prince's Tale we can read Lily's accusation as proof of what is to come. As readers we gather evidence and various aspects from the books to come to a conclusion, and the notion that Snape may have found Voldemort and the DEs attractive in Hogwarts is far from far fetched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Would Sirius' statement make Snape a DE in OOTP?
You're only proving my point. We, at the moment, have proof that Sirius was wrong about that. Just as we have proof, thanks to canon, that even if Snape thought that Sirius was the one who betrayed the Potters, he was wrong. Nothing in canon debunks Lily's assumptions. If anything, canon aids it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think it was because he was too shocked and perhaps even betrayed by a girl he thought knew him inside out. I think he was utterly taken aback by her words and her thoughts and before he could collect himself enough to speak his side, she was gone IMO.
I simply disagree. And if anybody should have really felt betrayed here, it was Lily.


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  #163  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 8:29 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
No Snape was not a DE at the time. Lily never accused him of being one. She said that he couldn't wait to leave school and join up.
That's a huge statement/assumption from Lily as far as Snape was concerned IMO. He would have felt betrayed that someone he had thought the world of, was thinking of him the way she did IMO.

Quote:
He did just that when he left school. In canon there is no evidence that Lily was going to join the Order, but given the kind of girl she was, who's surprised she did?
Is Snape to be judged by what he became later than by what he was at that time (the time of the break up)?

Quote:
At the time Snape was a schoolboy, if he wanted to show her she was wrong, well he had time to plan a different career path. But he didn't, he did just what she said he wanted to do.
If he had not planned that career path at all at the time of the SWM, how could he show her he changed?


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  #164  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 8:33 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
He would have felt betrayed that someone he had thought the world of, was thinking of him the way she did IMO.
Snape would have a lot of nerve thinking/feeling that way that after calling Lily a horrible slur earlier that day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
If he had not planned that career path at all at the time of the SWM, how could he show her he changed?
He can't just change his blood prejudice overnight but in a fairy tale world he could have acknowledged that his views about muggles/muggleborns is wrong and that he'll try to get his act together.


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Last edited by random_musing; February 2nd, 2010 at 8:36 am.
  #165  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 8:42 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

This is me butting in. Just once. Because my tongue already hurts.

Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose? As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances. In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall. It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life. Snape did wrong, he knew it. And he spent a large part of his life making up for it. If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly. In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.


  #166  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 9:03 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
This is me butting in. Just once. Because my tongue already hurts.

Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose? As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances. In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall. It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life. Snape did wrong, he knew it. And he spent a large part of his life making up for it. If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly. In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.
Well Moriath, it just show's that anyone who loves Rabbie Burns can never be wrong.


  #167  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 10:06 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
Honestly, why are we acting like Snape should have even needed all this time to answer?
All this time? The whole break up scene was what, some one and a half minute from start to finish? That is "all this time"? I disagree.

Quote:
Shouldn't we expect him to vehemently deny her statement?
When? Lily came, she spoke and she went away. When would Snape deny anything, let alone vehemently?

Quote:
Instead it's okay for him to ho-hum about his answer and Lily should have been forgiving?
For the mudblood word. No; she need not. If she was breaking up because of that then that's a totally different issue (which I wrote about a apge or so back).

She was breaking up because she felt he would become a DE. That's a totally different thing IMO.

Quote:
Also, he had time to answer...which is why it's described that he was silent for a moment.
He had time to answer you said.

This is what happeend in the break up scene.

"...I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just--"

Lily cut him off before he could finish.

"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater Friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"

And then spoke, not about the mudblood comment alone, but also about other things and Snape's clearly shocked IMO.

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

Before he could speak....

"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."

She's spoken again.

"No--listen, I didn't mean--"

Snape tries again.

"--to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone else of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"

Lily, predictably cuts him off .... again.

He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole...

Snape's not going to give up; Lily's too important for him and he struggles to find the right words to speak and ..... she's already left.

Where in this is all the time Snape had to deny everything Lily threw at him?

Quote:
His silence proved his guilt, and it simply adds up and makes sense when one takes into consideration his future actions and poor decisions.
Snape at that time was being judged by not how he was then, but by what he became in the future? I disagree.

Quote:
You're only proving my point. We, at the moment, have proof that Sirius was wrong about that. Just as we have proof, thanks to canon, that even if Snape thought that Sirius was the one who betrayed the Potters, he was wrong. Nothing in canon debunks Lily's assumptions. If anything, canon aids it.
And yet at the time that's all Lily's words were. Asumptions. I hold a view that Snape from age 11 should not be seen as a DE because he became one in the future. At 11, when he joined Hogwarts, he was fascinated by the Dark arts; he was in Slytherin where his fellow students all turned out to be DE's and yet that's no reason to say Snape would become one. Not even the fact Snape became a DE in the future makes it right to say that. JMHO. If I understand your posts right; you say Snape became one and so Lily's right; I differ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose?
To show Harry his life story IMO. Of his highs and lows and of his love for Lily; his mistakes (with the prophecy); and his realisation of his mistakes IMO.

Quote:
As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances.
Yes. Snape did not feel he was unfairly treated by Lily. He loved her, in spite of whatever faults she may have had IMO. I also think he felt that Lily chose something else over him.

Quote:
In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall.
I agree.

Quote:
It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life. Snape did wrong, he knew it.
Yes. Snape did wrong by calling her a word he should not have said IMO.

Quote:
If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly.
Then why did he not come to her in the next two years. If Lily's words are true, then Snape did not love her enough, for he never tried to change in the next two years and try and get her back as his friend. Lily was not important to him at that time and yet canon says otherwise. Lily was the most important thing for Snape. So I don't know if Snape loved her later when she became James' wife and not in the two years after the break up, when she was still single and before she started dating James.

I think Snape loved her a lot; and was able to see that she had indeed chosen her way (James) and on that road there was no place for Snape. I think he accepted it as well. IMO.

Quote:
In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.
Snape showed Harry what happened; I also think he concentrated on his life, his shortcomings, his love and his guilt, his work and the message. But those memories also show others and their interaction to Snape; for example the SWM showed Snape's Worst Memory and yet in that there was so much a reader could understand about 4 other characters, Lily and Snape himself. Likewise I think the TPT was Snape's story, but each memory showed not just his story but also revealed a part of the story of another character, Lily, the Marauders and Dumbledore IMO.


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  #168  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 10:45 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
This is me butting in. Just once. Because my tongue already hurts.

Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose? As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances. In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall. It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life. Snape did wrong, he knew it. And he spent a large part of his life making up for it. If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly. In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.
Rather weird that you and I are agreeing about anything Snape-related, but this is how I interpret it as well.


  #169  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 10:51 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
My post addressed itself to the idea that he would not have been willing/able to resist peer pressure. I think it is clear enough first, that he must have (unless we think Avery and Mulciber thought it cool that Sev had muggleborn friend?), and second, that he would have been willing to put up with more to retain that friendship with his "best" friend.
Hmmm... I do wonder why Severus thought he could have both; be friends with Lily and hang out with Avery and Mulciber. Surely there is an obvious conflict of interest here, which makes me think that Avery and Mulciber may have just turned a blind eye to Severus' friendship with Lily. We know Severus was a very bright student and was making up new spells at this time. Maybe, Mulciber and co. decided to overlook his attachment to Lily in order to have someone so talented in their little gang.Just a thought.


  #170  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:02 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
The_Green_Woods;5491473]All this time? The whole break up scene was what, some one and a half minute from start to finish? That is "all this time"? I disagree.
A minute and a half can be quite long enough to say 'I'll change.' I would think 2 seconds would cover it.

Quote:
When? Lily came, she spoke and she went away. When would Snape deny anything, let alone vehemently?
When she paused and he did not speak.

Quote:
For the mudblood word. No; she need not. If she was breaking up because of that then that's a totally different issue (which I wrote about a apge or so back).
She was breaking up because she felt he would become a DE. That's a totally different thing IMO.
Her fears about what he would become certainly played a part, but the chief reason was that he called her a racial slur.

Quote:
He had time to answer you said.

This is what happeend in the break up scene.

"...I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just--"

Lily cut him off before he could finish.

"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater Friends--you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"

And then spoke, not about the mudblood comment alone, but also about other things and Snape's clearly shocked IMO.

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

Before he could speak....

"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."

She's spoken again.

"No--listen, I didn't mean--"

Snape tries again.

"--to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone else of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"

Lily, predictably cuts him off .... again.

He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole...
Snape's not going to give up; Lily's too important for him and he struggles to find the right words to speak and ..... she's already left.
Where in this is all the time Snape had to deny everything Lily threw at him?[/quote]

I hope you dont mind, I'm going to go through the scene again, here's how it apperars in the book in it's entirilty-

Quote:
“I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.”
“I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just—”
“Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve “I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.”
“I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just—”
571
“Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve made
excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk
to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends—you see, you don’t
even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t
wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?”
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
“I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.”
“No—listen, I didn’t mean—”
“—to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood,
Severus. Why should I be any different?”
He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she
turned and climbed back through the portrait hole. . .made
excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk
to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends—you see, you don’t
even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?”
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
“I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.”
“No—listen, I didn’t mean—”
“—to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood,
Severus. Why should I be any different?”
He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she
turned and climbed back through the portrait hole. JK Rowling Deathly Hallows.
Lily interupts Snape when he is saying 'I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just—”, and she says 'It just slipped out?'
Now is this an interuption or is she just finishing his words for him? Either way she's not interested and who could blame her She then goes on to say that he and his precious little DE freinds just can't wait to join up. There is a hyphen in this speech and this indicates to me a pause. Snape had no trouble interupting Lly in the previous scene, he can't speak now? She closes with a question, 'Can you?'. He opens his mouth, comma indicating a pause, than closes his mouth. Then Lily closes with a speech that to me echoes with sadness and resignation. Snape is clearly struggling to find something to say, but he just can't. She has said it all really. And at this time she does feel contempt for him. All it would have taken was some kind of sign that he meant to change, but he does nothing.

Quote:
Snape at that time was being judged by not how he was then, but by what he became in the future? I disagree.
Oh, I think that Snape is being judged on his actions at the time.

Quote:
And yet at the time that's all Lily's words were. Asumptions. I hold a view that Snape from age 11 should not be seen as a DE because he became one in the future. At 11, when he joined Hogwarts, he was fascinated by the Dark arts; he was in Slytherin where his fellow students all turned out to be DE's and yet that's no reason to say Snape would become one. Not even the fact Snape became a DE in the future makes it right to say that. JMHO. If I understand your posts right; you say Snape became one and so Lily's right; I differ.
Lily was speaking her fears for the future. She made no assumptions, she made a prediction which proved to be all to true.


Quote:
To show Harry his life story IMO. Of his highs and lows and of his love for Lily; his mistakes (with the prophecy); and his realisation of his mistakes IMO.
I thought he just had to give Harry the Prophecy and enough information to make him believe it. His interactions with Dumbledore would have done that. The Lily episodes were just, well indulgence is a harsh word to use but it seems apt.

Quote:
Yes. Snape did not feel he was unfairly treated by Lily. He loved her, in spite of whatever faults she may have had IMO. I also think he felt that Lily chose something else over him
.

Yes, she chose not to be his exception to the rule. IMO.



Last edited by eliza101; February 2nd, 2010 at 11:10 am.
  #171  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:26 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I don't think it's realistic to expect Snape to realise all this that we are able to see in hindsight in the course of a minute or so; not do I think there was a chance that he could have "changed" overnight or even seen where and why he needed to change if he were to retain his friendship with Lily. And I also don't think it was all that easy for him. Point is, he did change, even if it was years later and way too late to get anything out of it - which, by the way, makes his final change and the process that got him there all the more worthwhile and impressive. When he did decide to change, he had nothing to gain, but he persisted, even after Lily died. So I think he more than made up for his behaviour with Lily at school


  #172  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:30 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose? As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances. In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall. It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life. Snape did wrong, he knew it. And he spent a large part of his life making up for it. If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly. In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.
Yes, I agree Adult-Severus wanted Harry to see these memories for a reason, Adult-Severus can see that Lily’s predictions came true and almost certainly that they held truth at that time. And yes he regrets that now he is an adult.

But just because the adult him sees it this way does not mean that that is what was going through the mind Teen-Severus at the time.

To me these are two very different things because Adult-Severus has had years/decades to analyse the scene, he has hindsight and can now see where his hanging around with Mulciber & Avery led him but most teens (actually most people full stop imo) are not that good at seeing where the people they hang out with will lead them at the time.

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Let us examine the "Epic Silence" of which you speak.

DH"Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends --- you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you!”

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

“I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.”


There we see it. He opened his mouth and closed it, and then Lily drew her conclusion. You suppose he could not deny he himself had every intention of becoming a Death Eater the very soones he could manage.

However, in light of what Lily says to him, it is also possible that he might have wanted to:

1) Actually finish the sentence that Lily surmises he would have finished with the words "slipped out", but in some other way that was what he was trying to say before she interrupted him.

2) Ask "Too late for what?"

3) Ask "Why do you need to make excuses for me to your other friends?"

4) Was having a brain melt trying to decide how to address the complex DE-related situation of his entire current and former circle of friends. Even if he had not made his decision, he might suspect former friends no longer in school, had. (Bella, e. g.).

5) Was considering asking something like "What do my friends have to do with anything?" but opted to think about it longer before saying something that might seem really stupid.
Yes, Just because Lily makes an assumption does not mean that is what is going on in teen-Sev’s mind at the time.

Personally I think he is confused at what he see’s as Lily’s change of subject. Please note I am not saying that Lily has changed the subject – she knows she hasn’t, but I don’t think Teen-Severus gets that it’s all part of the same thing. I think his mind is so intent on apologising for calling her a mudblood that the rest of it throws him and confuses him. It also parallels in reverse the incident where Lily thinks he’s changing the subject but he isn’t, which shows how poor they have both become at listening to each other imo.


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Last edited by kittling; February 2nd, 2010 at 11:34 am.
  #173  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:40 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Yes, I agree Adult-Severus wanted Harry to see these memories for a reason, Adult-Severus can see that Lily’s predictions came true and almost certainly that they held truth at that time. And yes he regrets that now he is an adult.

But just because the adult him sees it this way does not mean that that is what was going through the mind Teen-Severus at the time.

To me these are two very different things because Adult-Severus has had years/decades to analyse the scene, he has hindsight and can now see where his hanging around with Mulciber & Avery led him but most teens (actually most people full stop imo) are not that good at seeing where the people they hang out with will lead them at the time.



Yes, Just because Lily makes an assumption does not mean that is what is going on in teen-Sev’s mind at the time.

Personally I think he is confused at what he see’s as Lily’s change of subject. Please note I am not saying that Lily has changed the subject – she knows she hasn’t, but I don’t think Teen-Severus gets that it’s all part of the same thing. I think his mind is so intent on apologising for calling her a mudblood that the rest of it throws him and confuses him. It also parallels in reverse the incident where Lily thinks he’s changing the subject but he isn’t, which shows how poor they have both become at listening to each other imo.
Well Kittling, Isort of see it this way as well. I do see two seperate Snapes, the Snape who was and the Snape who became. Does that make sense? Sorry, the grandsons devoured the cake.


  #174  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:41 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I had sworn not to post in this thread again for the remainder of the decade.

Typical Gryffindor, can't keep her mouth shut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose? As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances. In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall. It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life. Snape did wrong, he knew it. And he spent a large part of his life making up for it. If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly. In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.
I agree.

I can see how some could see Lily not giving Sev a fair chance in the scnee outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor. However, when I read TPT for the first time, I did think JKR was dropping pretty unsubtle clues that Lily had just cause to be worried about the direction Sev's life was taking. So while I feel for Sev in that scene, I can understand what JKR was trying to do with Lily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I thought he just had to give Harry the Prophecy and enough information to make him believe it. His interactions with Dumbledore would have done that. The Lily episodes were just, well indulgence is a harsh word to use but it seems apt.
Eliza, I wouldn't say the Lily memories were 'indulgent' but absolutely crucial to convincing Harry that he, Snape, was genuine, because of his motives for turning against Voldemort.

Harry gets the message. Later on, he taunts Voldemort with the words that "Snape loved my mother" and had turned against Voldy "from the moment you began to hunt her down." (Man, I love that bit. )

The way I see it is that Snape was really exposing himself to Harry with those Lily memories. And that is what is so remarkable, really. Because he had begged Dumbledore, back in 1981, never to betray his deepest secret, that he had loved Lily Evans, and he couldn't bear the thought of 'Potter's son' ever knowing such a thing.

I guess, as a dying man, Severus thought he had nothing to lose. But, much more importantly, he wanted Harry to know the full truth, which of course included the reason why Lily ended the friendship. I've always seen it as pretty brave on Snape's part, to show all that to 'Potter's son'.


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Last edited by Pearl_Took; February 2nd, 2010 at 11:48 am.
  #175  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:50 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I think his mind is so intent on apologising for calling her a mudblood that the rest of it throws him and confuses him. It also parallels in reverse the incident where Lily thinks he’s changing the subject but he isn’t, which shows how poor they have both become at listening to each other imo.
Yes, looking at previous conversation we see between the two of them, it is starting to look rather like a theme in their communications, imo.

I also think that Lily's introduction of the DE stuff has thrown him, hence the opening and closing his mouth. Being speechless often signifies that one is stunned and confused.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I had sworn not to post in this thread again for the remainder of the decade.

Typical Gryffindor, can't keep her mouth shut. :lol


Quote:
The way I see it is that Snape was really exposing himself to Harry with those Lily memories. And that is what is so remarkable, really. Because he had begged Dumbledore, back in 1981, never to betray his deepest secret, that he had loved Lily Evans, and he couldn't bear the thought of 'Potter's son' ever knowing such a thing.

I guess, as a dying man, Severus thought he had nothing to lose. But, much more importantly, he wanted Harry to know the full truth, which of course included the reason why Lily ended the friendship. I've always seen it as pretty brave on Snape's part, to show all that to 'Potter's son'.
I totally agree!



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; February 2nd, 2010 at 11:56 am.
  #176  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:01 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I also think that Lily's introduction of the DE stuff has thrown him, hence the opening and closing his mouth. Being speechless often signifies that one is stunned and confused.
I think that scene can be read in two ways: either that Sev knows perfectly well what Lily is accusing him of, and can't think of any way in which to defend himself, hence the 'opening and closing of his mouth'. Which is the way I interpreted it first time I read it.

Or you can see it as Lily not giving Sev a proper chance to speak and defend himself. I respect the opinion of those who do interpret it that way, but for myself I've always given Lily the benefit of the doubt -- that she had given Sev chances before, in the past, but this was the last straw.

Quote:
I totally agree!


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  #177  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:17 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I think that scene can be read in two ways: either that Sev knows perfectly well what Lily is accusing him of, and can't think of any way in which to defend himself, hence the 'opening and closing of his mouth'. Which is the way I interpreted it first time I read it.

Or you can see it as Lily not giving Sev a proper chance to speak and defend himself. I respect the opinion of those who do interpret it that way, but for myself I've always given Lily the benefit of the doubt -- that she had given Sev chances before, in the past, but this was the last straw.
Agreed!

I think Lily had given him chances in the past, but I'm not so sure that Severus actually understood that. That is why I think he is taken aback. Yes, Lily had mentioned his association with Mulciber before and how she disliked him and his friends and their behaviour, but Lily and Severus still remained friends afterwards. So, I think Sev was a bit shocked that she suddenly made it a big thing. In other words, I think he just didn't see it coming.


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Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:23 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I had sworn not to post in this thread again for the remainder of the decade.

Typical Gryffindor, can't keep her mouth shut.



I agree.

I can see how some could see Lily not giving Sev a fair chance in the scnee outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor. However, when I read TPT for the first time, I did think JKR was dropping pretty unsubtle clues that Lily had just cause to be worried about the direction Sev's life was taking. So while I feel for Sev in that scene, I can understand what JKR was trying to do with Lily.



Eliza, I wouldn't say the Lily memories were 'indulgent' but absolutely crucial to convincing Harry that he, Snape, was genuine, because of his motives for turning against Voldemort.

Harry gets the message. Later on, he taunts Voldemort with the words that "Snape loved my mother" and had turned against Voldy "from the moment you began to hunt her down." (Man, I love that bit. )

The way I see it is that Snape was really exposing himself to Harry with those Lily memories. And that is what is so remarkable, really. Because he had begged Dumbledore, back in 1981, never to betray his deepest secret, that he had loved Lily Evans, and he couldn't bear the thought of 'Potter's son' ever knowing such a thing.

I guess, as a dying man, Severus thought he had nothing to lose. But, much more importantly, he wanted Harry to know the full truth, which of course included the reason why Lily ended the friendship. I've always seen it as pretty brave on Snape's part, to show all that to 'Potter's son'.
Yes Pearl, Your correct. I was a bit harsh.


  #179  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by RM
I'm really doubting that Snape was unable to deny her accusations, especially one as strong as accusing somebody of being a Death Eater, an open supporter of Voldemort. Instead he was opening and closing his mouth without saying anything; he had no excuses, no defense, because she was right and canon proves even further that she was right in her accusations. So yeah, I'm really having a hard time believing that he was merely perplexed by what Lily said. But to each her own!
I had a completely different take on that scene. I assumed that Snape was struggling with speech because he was so in love with her and was trying to get up the courage to tell her, but she cut him off.

I also agree with those who say that he was taken aback that she had so many things against him all of a sudden. This is a boy who believed that Lily was his best friend, and she is informing him all of a sudden that she wants nothing else to do with him. But that doesn't change how he feels about her.

I think anyone that age would be speechless in such a conversation. Maybe he was feeling those "snakes in the belly" like Harry when he has to talk to a girl at that age. Being tongue-tied and speechless around a girl isn't just singular to Snape in these books.

ETA: Let's also recall how shocked Harry is several times when people believe negative things about him - guilt by association with Cedric's death and being a Parseltongue for instance. None of which made Harry an evil person. Nor did Dumbledore's friendship with Grindelwald. At the moment that Lily was making her accusations, Snape was not a Death Eater, imo.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; February 2nd, 2010 at 12:30 pm.
  #180  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 2:17 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Fact is that Snape wanted Harry to see these exact memories. For what purpose? As I see it, it was not because he felt misunderstood and treated unfairly by Harry's mother and just couldn't die without letting her son know that she hadn't given him enough chances.
I do not believe that anyone has suggested this was Snape's reason for showing the breakup scene. Personally, I think Snape showed the breakup scene because it establishes something Harry grasped from the series of memories and communicated to Voldemort and the WW assembled in the final battle:

DH“Snape’s Patronus was a doe,” said Harry, “the same as my mother’s, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children."


Quote:
In my view these scenes are supposed to explain to Harry why Snape eventually changed sides and worked for Dumbledore and helped bringing about Voldemort's downfall. It's because SWM is the biggest regret of his life.
I would side with Albus Dumbledore, and suggest that the greatest regret of Snape's life is that he reported the Prophecy to Voldemort.

Quote:
Snape did wrong, he knew it. And he spent a large part of his life making up for it. If he had never intended to join the Death Eaters, if he had only been a victim of peer pressure, if he had only been treated unfairly and abandoned by his best friend, I doubt that the loss of Lily's friendship would have influenced him so strongly.
In what way do you suggest that the loss of her friendship influenced him, if his course was already set in stone before she broke it off? Or are you posting in support of the position SIP suggested, that without her presence in his life he eventually did become a DE?

Quote:
In my opinion, it weren't Lily's shortcomings Snape wanted to show to Harry but his.
True, but this does not prevent us from seeing such in Snape's presentation of his own. I also do not think Snape presented any memories for the express purpose of clarifying for Harry the relationship between his mother and his Aunt Petunia...nonetheless, as a consequence of seeing Snape's story, I have more of an understanding of where she was coming from.

The moment we are discussing IS a pivotal one. But we do not know why, exactly. Does Snape, after all these years, regret knowingly, at the age of 16, choosing violent, genocidal racism over his beloved? I find this hard to believe, because of his apparently very sincere desire to reconcile with her. Or does he regret his blindness to the logical extension of a path he was only beginning to embark upon? I get the second impression.


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