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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
Loathing 25 15.53%
Contempt 16 9.94%
Envy 27 16.77%
Hatred 17 10.56%
Jealousy 59 36.65%
Regret 0 0%
You're evil for restricting the options and not even putting up my favourite. 17 10.56%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #21  
Old May 8th, 2008, 3:35 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I chose loathing, because it's more inclusive. Loathing could be caused by jealousy, and it includes hatred; plus it's a logical feeling to have a result of bullying, while contempt, in my opinion, is a rather arrogant feeling for those we consider beneath us, and I don't think Snape, as much as he hated Potter Sr., saw him that way.
I think you have done a very good job defining contempt (I underlined your definition). I'm wondering though, if Snape did in fact feel superior to James. Or, if he didn't feel superior during their days as students, if he didn't join the Death Eaters in order to feel superior.


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  #22  
Old May 8th, 2008, 3:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

That's a tough poll, picking one when all seem to be applicable! *sigh*
In the end I went with Jealousy mainly because most of his actions are to try and show Lily that James/Maruaders are "not as wonderful as some people think" (paraphrased). I think Snape sensed the threat of an attraction between Lily and James pretty early on. After all Lily "hated" James which is an emotion usually associated with being attracted to someone even if Lily was unaware of it. And although their first interaction on the train could be said to be loathing or contemptuous, I think - mainly because of Snape's overwhelming love for Lily - that jealousy would be the overriding emotion with those others as bi-products. He knew that James fancied Lily and I think he was very much aware of how much of a threat there was to his chances, he was afterall extremely smart it probably didn't take him long to work that one out. All his actions seem to be done out of desperation like there's a clock ticking and his times running out e.g. even his words to Lily "I won't let you!" show how desperate he was. I disagee that he was controlling in relation to Lily - just very desperate. He thought that if he could expose the Marauders in some way that that would prevent James from getting Lily - unfortunately that backfired quite badly as it seemed to have pushed her towards James. *shakes head* Poor Severus!


  #23  
Old May 8th, 2008, 3:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I wanted to vote for the last option, because making me pick just one anything aboot Snape IS evil...however, I picked "hate". Though I needed to consult a dictionary to determine what the difference is between hate and loathing.

Merriam-Webster Onlinehate: 1 a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b: extreme dislike or antipathy

loathing: extreme disgust


If this is accurate (1. a in particular), hate is a better description for an emotion that is not instinctive, but based in experience, which is how I think Snape's feelings for James developed. I don't doubt he was jealous and envious later, as well, certainly over Lily, and maybe also over James' friends and school social standing, both of which would have contributed to a power imbalance that would have made it harder for Snape to pursue his hatred of James on equal terms.


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  #24  
Old May 8th, 2008, 5:02 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I think you have done a very good job defining contempt (I underlined your definition). I'm wondering though, if Snape did in fact feel superior to James. Or, if he didn't feel superior during their days as students, if he didn't join the Death Eaters in order to feel superior.
Thank you, Susan.

I don't think Snape ever felt superior to James, or inferior to him. I think he was intelligent enough to see neither was the case. And there is something else - there is a scene in which I believe we see Severus expressing genuine, pure contempt - Spinners End when he talks to Peter. It's very different from how he felt about James, if his own bashing of him is any indication. We see he is passionate about hating him, and he is completely dispassionate with Peter. To me this shows a definite distinction in the quality of negative feelings he feels for each of them. Perhaps deep down Severus understood that James did make Lily happy, and this didn't allow him to feel contempt for him - and it did fuel his hatred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I wanted to vote for the last option, because making me pick just one anything aboot Snape IS evil...however, I picked "hate". Though I needed to consult a dictionary to determine what the difference is between hate and loathing.

Merriam-Webster Onlinehate: 1 a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b: extreme dislike or antipathy

loathing: extreme disgust
Well then, it seems its the definition of loathing that I got wrong. When I voted I thought it meant intense and active hatred.


  #25  
Old May 8th, 2008, 6:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
And also ... on a different tack, although Snape is often vicious to Harry verbally, I have never taken his snide remarks that Harry should be expelled seriously. As the man assigned by Albus to protect Harry, he knows perfectly well that Harry should remain at Hogwarts, in safety, under the watchful eye of both himself and Albus! Not that Snape doesn't think Harry needs disciplining ... far from it. But the threats to expel Harry are all bark and no bite, IMO.
I respect your view and I agree that in the scene Moriath provided, Snape was likely exaggerating because he would know that Dumbledore would not agree to expell Harry for a silly potions prank. However, I would repectfully disagree that Snape's remarks about having Harry expelled were not always serious. On two separate occassion, imo, Snape did make a real effort to have him expelled. This I do not feel was directed at Harry so much, as a throw back to Snape's own youth and his efforts to have the Marauders expelled and imo, especially James. These two scenes are those to which I refer:

CoS, The Whomping Willow
*following Harry and Ron's arrival in the bewitched car*

"Silence!' snapped Snape again. "most unfortunately, you are not in my house and the decision to expel you does not rest with me. I shall go and fetch the people who do have that happy power..."

*following a lecture by McGonagall and Dumbledore. Ron Speaking to Dumbledore*

"Well, your're expelling us, aren't you?" said Ron

Harry looked quickly at Dumbledore

"Not today, Mr. Weasley,' said Dumbledore. 'But I must impress upon both of you the seriousness of what you have done...I must also warn you that if you do anything like this again, I will have no choice but to expel you."

Snape looked as though Christmas had been cancelled. He cleared his throat and said, "Professor Dumbledore, these boys have flouted the Decree for the Restriction of Underage Wizardry, caused serious damage to an old and valuable tree...surelly acts of this nature..."

"It will be for Professor McGonagall to decided on these boys' punishments, Severus,' said Dumbledore calmly. 'They are in her house and are therefore her responsibility....'Come Severus,'..."

Snape shot a look of pure venom at Harry and Ron as he allowed himself to be swept out his office...


POA, Hermione's Secret
*Snape speaking with the Minister of Magic*

"Ah, well, Snape...Harry Potter, you know...we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned."

"And yet - is it good for him to be given so much special treatment? Personally I try to treat him like any other student. And any other student would be suspended - at the very least - for leading his friends into such danger. Consider, Minister: against all school rules - after all the precautions put in place for his protection - out of bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a murderer - and I have reason to believe he has been visiting Hogsmeade illegally, too-"

"well, well...we shall see, Snape, we shall see...the boy has undoubtedly been foolish..."


As I interpret the first scene, Snape was honestly upset that Potter and Weasley would not be expelled for an offense that clearly warranted it (Dumbledore confirmed that it would be an appropriate punishment).

As I interpret the second scene, Snape was speaking to the Minister of Magic, who has high authority and could demand Harry's suspension and/or expulsion of Dumbledore. Imo, there was a real attempt by Snape at that time to have Harry removed from Hogwarts, at the very least, for a time. Snape believed that Harry was unconscious and so he spoke for the Minister's ears only, thus, I do not see any reason for Snape's bark to be worse than his bite in that scene. Further, Snape calmly attempted to express his desires in a subtle manner as if to manipulate the Minister into seeing his viewpoint ('should we treat Potter differently?) and this after having been verbally honored by the Minister, so Snape knew he was in his good books and he had the Minister's ear ("...Lucky you were there, Snape...Order of Merlin, Second Class, I'd say. First Class, if I can wangle it!"). Snape's private speech with the Minister here would be an example where there was no element of 'scare tactics' involved because if the Minister was convinced, he could force Dumbledore's hand and have Harry removed, imo.


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  #26  
Old May 8th, 2008, 6:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Here I must disagree with you, TGW. Snape's antipathy to Harry makes no sense to me if it's not everything to do with how Snape feels about James. To Snape, Harry is James Incarnate: not only is Harry a reminder to Snape of what he lost, he is also determined to see the Boy Who Lived as a spoilt, conceited brat who disobeys rules and takes stupid risks. This view helps to explain Snape's immense anger at Harry in PoA, for example, when he accuses Harry of putting himself at risk and thus dishonouring the efforts of others to protect him from 'the murderer Sirius Black'.
Quote:
But Harry, whilst reckless and often a rule-breaker, is not a spoilt brat, and his deceased father did not grow up to be a villain. So, while I completely acknowledge that Snape worked to protect Harry, his perspective on the boy is at the same time unfair and skewed and distorted. As Albus says to him, "You see what you want to see." Unfortunately, he seems determined to see Harry as the worst of James Potter reborn from the word go.
I would completely and wholehearedly agree with you Pearl, but Snape's actions don't hurt Harry. Had he loathed Harry because of James, I think Snape would have taunted Harry a lot more, and surely horribly, by mocking Harry's memories in class (after their Occlumency lessons).

Another way he could hurt Harry was by allowing Harry into his mind and showing him some of the 4 on 1 fights Snape says James and co. fought with him all the time (in HBP).

Again the memories at the time of death don't show Snape's hate of James Potter as the reason for Snape's actions towards Harry IMO. I think Snape was extremely divided between acknowledging Harry and pushing him away.

I also think Snape could not be nice to Harry because of his own role as a spy and his own past with James and Lily. That IMO took shape in what we saw as Snape's interaction with Harry, because he made Harry firmly turn away from him and I think Snape used his dislike of James to push Harry away.

Did Snape hate or loathe Harry? I don't think so. Did he go out of his way to push Harry to hate him using James Potter, I would say yes.

Snape is comfortable with Harry hating him, I feel at times, because that is an emotion Snape can deal with, though I am not sure why I feel that way. Perhaps it is his inability to deal with his deeper emotions regarding Harry or some such things, or well, I don't know.

While Harry did not know, Snape trusted Dumbledore and knew that Voldemort was coming back. He also was in touch with other DEs like the Malfoys. He could not be seen as friendly or nice towards Harry and nor could he by being friendly to Harry while alone, allow Harry to think well of him IMO.

With this I think there was also the past Snape shared with James and the fact Harry was the living proof of Lily's love for anothr man, when he desperately wanted that post; I think everything had a hand in his outlook regarding Harry; not merely his opinion of James, Sirius or even Lily IMO.

Snape is also harshest with Harry comparing him with James especially when Harry does something dangerous, like in POA when Harry goes to Hogsmeade, placing himself in great danger; when in HBP Harry's chasing him and stopping him from leaving; when Harry asks Snape to listen to Sirius in POA and the like. If I'm wrong in any facts, forgive me, I don't have my books with me at present.

Quote:
JKR says that Snape "loathed Harry to the very end". The way I see it is that Snape wrestled with his feelings towards the boy -- wanting to hate him because he was Potter's son, yet sworn to protect Harry because he'd loved his mother. But the only reason I can think of why Snape would have loathed Harry so much (for the most part) is because he had loathed his father.
I love JKR for the world she has given us, and I used to quote her in every other post, and I still read every interview of hers, but I also respectfully disagree with her on a few things.

If she wanted to show me, that Snape hated Harry, I think she did not do a good enough job IMO. By showing us the memories of Snape in the TPT and by Snape's actions throughout the books she IMO told me something different.

I saw Snape's punishment for the sectumsempra, for breaking into a teacher's memories, for throwing a firecracker into Goyle's cauldron and I also saw in the memories of his anguish and his remorse and his reaction when he was told by Dumbledore that Harry had to die, and I am afraid, I just cannot see JKR's point of view, when she says Snape hates and loathes Harry.

I saw a lot of extremely well concealed concern, and his somewhat conflicted feelings of self hatred, jealousy and longing whenever he saw Harry because Harry was the product of Lily's love for James, but somehow I never saw hatred or loathing in Snape's eyes for Harry, because he was James's; longing that he, Snape was not in James's positon with regards to Lily, jealousy that James could win Lily's love and self hatred that he threw it all away, but not hatred towards Harry because of James IMO.

I think if that's what JKR wanted to portray, she did a bad job IMO.


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  #27  
Old May 8th, 2008, 9:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
As I interpret the second scene, Snape was speaking to the Minister of Magic, who has high authority and could demand Harry's suspension and/or expulsion of Dumbledore. Imo, there was a real attempt by Snape at that time to have Harry removed from Hogwarts, at the very least, for a time. Snape believed that Harry was unconscious and so he spoke for the Minister's ears only, thus, I do not see any reason for Snape's bark to be worse than his bite in that scene. Further, Snape calmly attempted to express his desires in a subtle manner as if to manipulate the Minister into seeing his viewpoint ('should we treat Potter differently?) and this after having been verbally honored by the Minister, so Snape knew he was in his good books and he had the Minister's ear ("...Lucky you were there, Snape...Order of Merlin, Second Class, I'd say. First Class, if I can wangle it!"). Snape's private speech with the Minister here would be an example where there was no element of 'scare tactics' involved because if the Minister was convinced, he could force Dumbledore's hand and have Harry removed, imo.
But Snape doesn't even mention expulsion when talking to the minister, and prior to your quote he says of the trio "They weren't responsible for their actions." Hardly the words of someone trying to get them expelled. He certainly wants to get Harry into trouble - but I don't think he wants to get him expelled. Afterall Snape has promised to protect Harry - a promise he takes very seriously; how can Snape fulfill this promise if Harry is expelled?

Snape's feelings for Harry are incredibly complex.

Still can't pick a poll option regarding James


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  #28  
Old May 8th, 2008, 9:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Do you interpret this scene differently after DH?

Well, I'm not really sure how much I considered this scene before DH...I suppose now, having the proof that he was a good guy (though I always believed in him) and knowing all the details, I do look at it a bit more significantly, though. Honestly, yes, Harry had a good reason for the disruption but he genuinely deserved to be punished for it. If McGonagall or some other professor had witnessed such a thing, there would be detention, surely. Snape knew Harry did it, so why not punish him? I wonder, was it because he could see that it was done with good intentions in mind? Obviously expulsion was an empty threat; Snape makes the same one several times throughout the series and never does he act upon it.


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  #29  
Old May 8th, 2008, 10:09 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
But Snape doesn't even mention expulsion when talking to the minister, and prior to your quote he says of the trio "They weren't responsible for their actions." Hardly the words of someone trying to get them expelled. He certainly wants to get Harry into trouble - but I don't think he wants to get him expelled. Afterall Snape has promised to protect Harry - a promise he takes very seriously; how can Snape fulfill this promise if Harry is expelled?

Snape's feelings for Harry are incredibly complex.

Still can't pick a poll option regarding James
I respect your view. I interpreted this portion: "I try to treat him like any other student. And any other student would be suspended - at the very least - for leading his friends into such danger..." to mean that Snape was recommending that Harry be suspended "at least" - with the at least signifying that something more, like expulsion, might be appropriate.

Imo, Snape was still unsure if Voldemort would return. He was trusting of Dumbledore's opinion in general, but imo, Snape was doubtful because his mark was dormant and that left him feeling like he might be wasting his time helping Dumbledore protect Harry from nothing. I feel this is supported by Snape ceasing to speak of expulsion altogether after GoF when his mark confirmed that Voldemort had indeed returned.


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  #30  
Old May 8th, 2008, 10:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I think that Snape's continuous mention of expulsion has many purposes.
It frightens Harry, and communicates the seriousness of his actions (though it never gets through Harry's head, because Harry always knows he has a good reason). It also helps Snape vent his anger, and frustration, and resentment towards Harry, knowing of course, that neither McGonagall or Dumbledore will agree to expel him. Of course in the years of denial towards Voldemort's return, Snape probably had some fantasy of having Harry expelled, still knowing it would never happen, but I don't believe he ever really tried to have him expelled. It was always an empty threat to make himself feel a little better, in my opinion.


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  #31  
Old May 8th, 2008, 11:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

IMO, Snape seems to think expulsion is a good way of getting rid of people he hates - according to Sirius he did try to get the marauders expelled all the time, following them around (Lily also mentions him following them around).


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  #32  
Old May 9th, 2008, 12:11 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
But Snape doesn't even mention expulsion when talking to the minister, and prior to your quote he says of the trio "They weren't responsible for their actions." Hardly the words of someone trying to get them expelled. He certainly wants to get Harry into trouble - but I don't think he wants to get him expelled. Afterall Snape has promised to protect Harry - a promise he takes very seriously; how can Snape fulfill this promise if Harry is expelled?

Snape's feelings for Harry are incredibly complex.
So true

Ok, I agree here with you about the expulsion. I think that is the farthest thing from Snape's mind because let's not forget, Snape was protecting Harry and there is no safer place than Hogwarts for him. I only think he wants to impress the seriousness of the situation upon him and have him receive some type of punishment just like the other students would have. I think he sees James in him in that as well. Harry, like his father, gets away with pranks and things. This, imo, reminds Snape of James very much an so he tries to have him be punished for his actions as James never was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post

Imo, Snape was still unsure if Voldemort would return. He was trusting of Dumbledore's opinion in general, but imo, Snape was doubtful because his mark was dormant and that left him feeling like he might be wasting his time helping Dumbledore protect Harry from nothing. I feel this is supported by Snape ceasing to speak of expulsion altogether after GoF when his mark confirmed that Voldemort had indeed returned.

I would have to disagree with this idea of Snape wasting his time... I think if anyone knows what Voldemort was capable of it is Snape. I do not think he would let his guard down for anything.


  #33  
Old May 9th, 2008, 12:38 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

As much as Snape is a nasty(yet effective) teacher, all his 'expelling' threats are empty, at least towards Harry anyway.
He was just being nasty for the sake of being hate-able, especially towards Harry because of James.

But he knows Harry need to be in Hogwarts, under the watch of the Order and himself, so he didn't really mean it.


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  #34  
Old May 9th, 2008, 12:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

The Poll : Where's the 'all of the above' option, eh? And why can't we choose more than one?
Wikipediajealousy is the fear of losing something that one possesses to another person (a loved one in the prototypical form), while envy is the pain or frustration caused by another person having something that one does not have oneself.

Looking at the definitions, I think Envy would be better suited. Considering that Snape hated James even before he started fancying Lily, I'd say that it was envy with regards to James' other qualities, and jealousy, where Lily was involved.

So, Snape only feared losing Lily to James for about two or three years (even less, if Snape was convinced by Lily telling him that she thought James a toerag). Before that, losing Lily to James wasn't an issue. So, that would be envy, not jealousy. And afterwards, when Lily was with James, it would be envy again, because Snape wishes that he had what James does.

I got the feeling that Snape was envious of James's other qualities as well, like his talent in Quidditch, and his popularity, from how he repeatedly mentions them to Harry. So, I'd say that the main feeling would be envy, rather than jealousy, which was only an issue for a short time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Had he loathed Harry because of James, I think Snape would have taunted Harry a lot more, and surely horribly, by mocking Harry's memories in class (after their Occlumency lessons).
IMO, Snape took particular care to ensure that he could get away with what he did to Harry. Dumbledore has a pretty good idea of what goes on in the school (portraits?), and he would definitely have intervened if Snape had gone too far. We see that the level of Snape's mistreatment rises when he and Harry are together and unsupervised.

As for mocking Harry's memories, he could not possibly have done that in class, because the lessons were a secret. Besides, Harry has seen some of Snape's memories, none of which were particularly flattering to Snape. Snape would expect Harry to retaliate in kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Another way he could hurt Harry was by allowing Harry into his mind and showing him some of the 4 on 1 fights Snape says James and co. fought with him all the time (in HBP).
As I said on the previous thread, Snape tends to lie outright when it comes to James' actions. So, most likely, there were never any four on one fights in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Again the memories at the time of death don't show Snape's hate of James Potter as the reason for Snape's actions towards Harry IMO. I think Snape was extremely divided between acknowledging Harry and pushing him away.
DH“—mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent—”
“You see what you expect to see, Severus,” said Dumbledore, without raising his eyes from a copy of Transfiguration Today.

***

“Why? You aren’t trying to give him more detentions, Severus? The boy will soon have spent more time in detention than out.”
“He is his father over again—”

Snape compares Harry to James twice. In the other memories, Harry was not mentioned at all, or Snape hadn't been told of his resemblance to James, only to Lily. I keep wondering, did Snape expect Harry to look like Lily? That was what Dumbledore told him, after all. That might also add to Snape's revulsion of Harry at first sight, because he never expected to see a mini-James with Lily's eyes, after hoping for something different for eleven years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Did Snape hate or loathe Harry? I don't think so. Did he go out of his way to push Harry to hate him using James Potter, I would say yes.
I'd say that he did both. There's nothing in canon to suggest that Snape felt anything other than hatred for Harry, for one thing. I agree that he wanted Harry to hate him, because he would feel justified in hating Harry then, because it was mutual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape is comfortable with Harry hating him, I feel at times, because that is an emotion Snape can deal with, though I am not sure why I feel that way. Perhaps it is his inability to deal with his deeper emotions regarding Harry or some such things, or well, I don't know.
Could you explain this a bit more? I don't really understand your reaching the conclusion that there were any 'deeper emotions'. What exactly do you base it on? I do get what you mean about Snape being more comfortable with hating Harry though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
While Harry did not know, Snape trusted Dumbledore and knew that Voldemort was coming back. He also was in touch with other DEs like the Malfoys. He could not be seen as friendly or nice towards Harry and nor could he by being friendly to Harry while alone, allow Harry to think well of him IMO.
But he could have been indifferent to him, treated him like any other student, and not singled him out.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape is also harshest with Harry comparing him with James especially when Harry does something dangerous, like in POA when Harry goes to Hogsmeade, placing himself in great danger; when in HBP Harry's chasing him and stopping him from leaving; when Harry asks Snape to listen to Sirius in POA and the like. If I'm wrong in any facts, forgive me, I don't have my books with me at present.
There are plenty other occasions in which Snape is unjustifiably harsh towards Harry. For example, when he fetches Harry from the gates in HBP, when he tries to get Harry expelled at the end of PoA, etc.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I saw a lot of extremely well concealed concern, and his somewhat conflicted feelings of self hatred, jealousy and longing whenever he saw Harry because Harry was the product of Lily's love for James, but somehow I never saw hatred or loathing in Snape's eyes for Harry, because he was James's; longing that he, Snape was not in James's positon with regards to Lily, jealousy that James could win Lily's love and self hatred that he threw it all away, but not hatred towards Harry because of James IMO.
I respect your opinion, but I have to say that I never saw anything of the sort. I think that Jo did a good job of conveying that Snape loathed Harry. From the first moment that Snape sets eyes on Harry, it becomes clear to Harry that Snape dislikes him. After the first class, he's convinced that Snape hates him. Harry's reasons for reaching such a conclusion are clearly explained. The reader can feel the malice and hatred dripping off Snape's words, throughout the series. If that was concern, it was extremely well concealed. In fact, the author felt so compelled to conceal it, that she tells her fans the exact opposite, that Snape actually loathed Harry!

I think that Jo did a very good job of showing us that Snape was clever enough to pick his moments, rather than any concern or care on Snape's part. He uses the opportunities he gets to administer punishments, to the point of overstepping his authority. For example, in the first Potions class, he takes points off Harry for cheek, and later on, for intentionally letting Neville mess up his potion. In the first case, it is only after repeated humiliation that Harry finally has enough, and talks back. Snape basically goads him into it. We're shown that Harry is singled out. The same scene is repeated year after year, in various guises, with Snape taunting and goading Harry into talking back.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view. I interpreted this portion: "I try to treat him like any other student. And any other student would be suspended - at the very least - for leading his friends into such danger..." to mean that Snape was recommending that Harry be suspended "at least" - with the at least signifying that something more, like expulsion, might be appropriate.

Imo, Snape was still unsure if Voldemort would return. He was trusting of Dumbledore's opinion in general, but imo, Snape was doubtful because his mark was dormant and that left him feeling like he might be wasting his time helping Dumbledore protect Harry from nothing. I feel this is supported by Snape ceasing to speak of expulsion altogether after GoF when his mark confirmed that Voldemort had indeed returned.
I agree wholeheartedly, WWB. Snape's actions in Dumbledore's absence show us that they weren't just empty threats.


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Last edited by vivekgk; May 9th, 2008 at 1:34 am.
  #35  
Old May 9th, 2008, 2:20 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by Tonks View Post
Harry, like his father, gets away with pranks and things. This, imo, reminds Snape of James very much an so he tries to have him be punished for his actions as James never was.
I respect your opinion, but based on canon, Snape knew that James had been punished numerous times for many of the pranks he pulled. He said as much when he made Harry sort through the many cards detailing James' detentions served and listing his old pranks or I think the book called them petty offenses - . (HBP - Sectumsempra). And also from DH-TPT:

Dumbledore: “Why? You aren’t trying to give him more detentions, Severus? The boy will soon have spent more time in detention than out.”

Snape: “He is his father over again".

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
The Poll : Where's the 'all of the above' option, eh? And why can't we choose more than one?
Wikipediajealousy is the fear of losing something that one possesses to another person (a loved one in the prototypical form), while envy is the pain or frustration caused by another person having something that one does not have oneself.

Looking at the definitions, I think Envy would be better suited. Considering that Snape hated James even before he started fancying Lily, I'd say that it was envy with regards to James' other qualities, and jealousy, where Lily was involved.
You make a good point based on the detailed definitions. I would agree that envy is more definitive. I just picked jealousy figuring it incorporated both meanings. But I agree that more than one option could be chosen in any case and that Snape's feelings shifted depending on what part of his life we are referring to.

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I got the feeling that Snape was envious of James's other qualities as well, like his talent in Quidditch, and his popularity, from how he repeatedly mentions them to Harry. So, I'd say that the main feeling would be envy, rather than jealousy, which was only an issue for a short time.
I agree, that was my understanding as well based on Snape's comments to Harry in the books. But also with respect to his comments to Lily in memory #5.

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As I said on the previous thread, Snape tends to lie outright when it comes to James' actions. So, most likely, there were never any four on one fights in the first place.
I interpreted many of Snape's comments in that light as well. For example when he said James had a "little talent on the Quidditch pitch" (POA, Snape's Grudge) - when it was evident from the cup in the trophy room that he'd been extremely talented.

Quote:
Snape compares Harry to James twice. In the other memories, Harry was not mentioned at all, or Snape hadn't been told of his resemblance to James, only to Lily. I keep wondering, did Snape expect Harry to look like Lily? That was what Dumbledore told him, after all. That might also add to Snape's revulsion of Harry at first sight, because he never expected to see a mini-James with Lily's eyes, after hoping for something different for eleven years.
That is an interesting thought, I'd never considered that before. It is possible that Snape was expecting that Harry might more resemble Lily than James on the first day he set eyes upon him.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 9th, 2008 at 2:38 am.
  #36  
Old May 9th, 2008, 3:14 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
IMO, Snape seems to think expulsion is a good way of getting rid of people he hates - according to Sirius he did try to get the marauders expelled all the time, following them around (Lily also mentions him following them around).
Yes, but that only makes it more sense why adult Snape continues to use it as a threat. I imagine teen Snape saw expulsion as an extreme punishment that he would hate to have himself, and so he uses it as a weapon against others. Adult Snape, however, only uses the threat of it to help keep his students and his temper in line.


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  #37  
Old May 9th, 2008, 3:48 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Imo, Snape was still unsure if Voldemort would return. He was trusting of Dumbledore's opinion in general, but imo, Snape was doubtful because his mark was dormant and that left him feeling like he might be wasting his time helping Dumbledore protect Harry from nothing. I feel this is supported by Snape ceasing to speak of expulsion altogether after GoF when his mark confirmed that Voldemort had indeed returned.
I disagree, we are shown Snape already needing to protect Harry, and thinking of it in terms of Voldemort vs. Dumbledore, in the first book of the series.

PS/SS"Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie."


He tells Bella he thought Quirrell ("unworthy Quirrell") was working on his own to get the Stone. But this is inconsistent with the quoted dialogue - apparently Snape alrady believed Quirrell was acting on behalf of someone else. Who else but Voldemort?


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  #38  
Old May 9th, 2008, 4:48 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I disagree, we are shown Snape already needing to protect Harry, and thinking of it in terms of Voldemort vs. Dumbledore, in the first book of the series.

PS/SS"Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie."


He tells Bella he thought Quirrell ("unworthy Quirrell") was working on his own to get the Stone. But this is inconsistent with the quoted dialogue - apparently Snape alrady believed Quirrell was acting on behalf of someone else. Who else but Voldemort?
Excellent point. Why would Snape bring up this question of "loyalties" at all with someone whom he believed was working for himself?

Something I think is interesting about the "expulsion" issue in COS is that Dobby was at the same time trying to keep Harry out of school, first by intercepting letters from his friends, making Harry miss the train, then by jinxing a bulger to go after Harry - all in order to "protect" him.

I just think it's interesting parallel and/or contrast- between the two types of characters who are basically trying to protect Harry.


  #39  
Old May 9th, 2008, 8:23 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I honestly don't think Sanpe ever meant to get Harry expelled for real. I was inclined to believe he did pre-DH, but after the secenes in the Prince's Tale, I can't see it plausibe. At the very least, he knew there was no way Dumbledore would let the boy anywhere out of his sight. And his supposed desire to see him expelled is at glaring odds, in my opinion, with the perseverance with which Snape is shown to keep his word to Dumbledore all those years. We only seehim falter once - after he's asked to murder Dumbledore - and he comes back from that too. For him to seriously have considered Harry's expulsion over the boy's disobedience or supposed arrogance makes no sense to me.


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Old May 9th, 2008, 8:40 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

My interpretation is based on Snape's understanding that Harry was safe from Voldemort at the Dursleys, which is where he would be sent if he were to be kicked out of Hogwarts (if just temporarily). That together with the idea that Voldemort had not returned (pre-GoF), combined to allow Snape to feel that his demands and requests for Harry to be expelled would not place his life in danger.

Fundamentally, imo, Snape did not wish to see any more of Harry!James than absolutely necessary and having him removed from the school would have been a victory over James (Harry) in his opinion. I think the conversation with the Minister of Magic was particularly telling because Snape believed that he was speaking to him privately and the Minister was the only person who could go over Dumbledore's head. Snape's even suggesting the idea of suspension "at least" to the Minister about Harry takes the matter outside of the realm of an 'empty threat' imo, because the Minister would not see it as a threat, but rather as a serious suggestion that Harry be at least temporarily removed. The Minister did not agree with Snape, but what if he had and had a suspension issued for Harry?


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; May 9th, 2008 at 8:45 am.
 
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