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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4



 
 
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  #1321  
Old October 16th, 2012, 4:58 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I still say that it worked with Harry because it was a deliberate choice. I'm not so sure that James even could have "run away" given the time limits and the protections on the house. But I think the main part of the magic is making the conscious, deliberate choice, "I could live, but I choose to die to help the other(s)."


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  #1322  
Old October 16th, 2012, 6:23 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

It takes two for these things to work. One to make the offer, another to accept it (consciously or not). Lily blurted out something in a panic, Voldemort accepted her terms through his actions (though not his intentions) and together this created an unintentional protection spell.


  #1323  
Old October 16th, 2012, 8:34 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Actually Voldemort never refuses the deal. And when he kills her, he unwittingly accepts it. Lily's offer was "not Harry, kill me instead".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
It takes two for these things to work. One to make the offer, another to accept it (consciously or not). Lily blurted out something in a panic, Voldemort accepted her terms through his actions (though not his intentions) and together this created an unintentional protection spell.
I have no problem buying this explanation. My problem is that this is fan made and not actually explained in the books. It's how you and perhaps some other fans would explain the ancient magic if asked to do so but it isn't based on anything we have been told. Mostly because we haven't been told much at all about it all worked. The only thing we know, up until DH at least, is that Harry's mother died for him. Which isn't exactly correct since Lily's death would have never saved Harry (leaving aside the explanation provided above). She could choose to live or to die but Harry would have died either way. We don't know much else about how the magic works. We don't even know if Lily actually believed she had a choice in the matter or if her only choices were between being killed now or later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4
James may have chosen to face Voldemort and give Lily time to get away but that was his own choice, not one given him by Voldemort. Voldemort did give Harry a choice - to give himself up and spare the people fighting at Hogwarts or (implied) stay away and risk more deaths to his friends. Harry chose to give himself up, even though he may have realised that Voldemort would have probably gone on to kill those who opposed him nevertheless.
The choice was given to Harry's friends though not to Harry. Since they decided not to give him up and instead risk dying themselves why didn't their sacrifice protect Harry in turn? I understand why Harry's sacrifice protected them but why didn't the magic work when they decided not to give Harry to Voldemort?


  #1324  
Old October 17th, 2012, 5:25 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
The choice was given to Harry's friends though not to Harry. Since they decided not to give him up and instead risk dying themselves why didn't their sacrifice protect Harry in turn? I understand why Harry's sacrifice protected them but why didn't the magic work when they decided not to give Harry to Voldemort?
The choice was given to Harry. In ch 33 The Prince's Tale: "I speak now, Harry Potter, directly to you. You have permitted your friends to die for you rather than face me yourself. I shall wait for one hour in the Forbidden Forest. If at the end of that hour, you have not come to me, have not given yourself up, then battle recommences. This time I shall enter the fray myself, Harry Potter, and I shall find you, and I shall punish every last man, woman and child who has tried to conceal you from me." His friends hope he isn't going to make the choice to give himself up but finally that's the choice he makes.

What I find a bit of a plot-hole is that he didn't set off for the Forest to give himself up as per Voldemort's challenge but to die so the horcrux would be destroyed and someone else would have a chance to finish off Nagini and Voldemort. In the face-off with Voldemort he says he was ready to die to stop Voldemort hurting "these people" but that's not what was in his mind when he went to the Forest as far as I can see.


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  #1325  
Old October 17th, 2012, 6:32 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
What I find a bit of a plot-hole is that he didn't set off for the Forest to give himself up as per Voldemort's challenge but to die so the horcrux would be destroyed and someone else would have a chance to finish off Nagini and Voldemort. In the face-off with Voldemort he says he was ready to die to stop Voldemort hurting "these people" but that's not what was in his mind when he went to the Forest as far as I can see.
From DH, here are Harry's thoughts as he makes his way to the Forest that indicate Harry was going to sacrifice himself so that no one else would die:

DH, page 695, US Hardcover:

"Dumbledore knew, as Voldemort knew, that Harry would not let anyone else die for him now that he had discovered it was in his power to stop it. The images of Fred, Lupin and Tonks lying dead in the Great Hall forced their way back, and for a moment he could hardly breathe.."


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  #1326  
Old October 19th, 2012, 12:04 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Couple of questions:
-why does Dumbledore say that Harry had to be killed by Voldemort himself? Wouldn't it be the same if anyone else killed Harry to destroy the horcrux in him?

-We know that Harry can get into Voldemort's mind and see what he sees. Yet, in Goblet of Fire, whenever Harry conects with Voldemort, he isn't exactly in Voldemorts mind: he's watching the scene as if he was there himself, not as one of the players (in the first scene, it almosts seems that Harry is in Frank Bryce's place, not Voldemort's).


  #1327  
Old October 19th, 2012, 1:11 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by oierem View Post
Couple of questions:
-why does Dumbledore say that Harry had to be killed by Voldemort himself? Wouldn't it be the same if anyone else killed Harry to destroy the horcrux in him?
I'm not sure Dumbledore believed this, and I think he believed anyone could have killed Harry and destroyed the horcrux; however, Voldemort believed it because of Trelawney's prophecy and instructed his DEs that only he was the one to kill Harry.

Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 27:    


  "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."  



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  #1328  
Old October 19th, 2012, 1:51 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Yes, but why is Dumbledore so insistent that Voldemort is the one who has to kill Harry??


  #1329  
Old October 19th, 2012, 2:27 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by oierem View Post
Yes, but why is Dumbledore so insistent that Voldemort is the one who has to kill Harry??
If people believe that, then only Voldemort will be trying to kill Harry, rather than everyone who supports Voldemort.

And Harry has the blood protection from his mother, which also runs through Voldemort's veins because Voldemort used Harry's blood to come back to full power in OotP, which means, as DD correctly guessed, that when Voldemort goes to kill Harry, Harry lives but the horcrux inside him is destroyed.


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Last edited by MerryLore; October 19th, 2012 at 3:00 pm.
  #1330  
Old October 19th, 2012, 3:14 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Wouldn't the horcrux have been destroyed if someone else had killed Harry?


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  #1331  
Old October 19th, 2012, 3:39 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
Wouldn't the horcrux have been destroyed if someone else had killed Harry?
Yes - and Harry, too.


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  #1332  
Old October 19th, 2012, 3:41 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
Wouldn't the horcrux have been destroyed if someone else had killed Harry?
Anyone can destroy a Horcrux, so yes, I think if anyone else had killed Harry then the Horcrux-like bit of Voldemort's soul in him would also have been destroyed. I think though that Harry would not have had the opportunity to live had someone besides Voldemort killed him. Lily's protection was in Harry, and Voldemort had taken Harry's blood to make himself a new body, and this protection specifically worked between Harry and Voldemort. I think Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to be the one to kill Harry because it would give that protection a chance to save Harry, and allow Harry to live-- something that would not happen if someone else killed Harry instead.


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  #1333  
Old October 19th, 2012, 7:05 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by oierem View Post
-We know that Harry can get into Voldemort's mind and see what he sees. Yet, in Goblet of Fire, whenever Harry conects with Voldemort, he isn't exactly in Voldemorts mind: he's watching the scene as if he was there himself, not as one of the players (in the first scene, it almosts seems that Harry is in Frank Bryce's place, not Voldemort's).
Yeah, I always thought that was a bit strange. One explanation for it could be that right before Voldemort killed Frank Bryce he used Legilimens to look into his mind and what Harry really saw was just the memory which is why he would see it from Frank's POV and not
Voldemort's.


  #1334  
Old October 19th, 2012, 7:27 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Perhaps it had something to do with Voldemort taking Harry's blood? Before that, he couldn't touch Harry. Perhaps the same barrier kept theirs souls apart, so Harry couldn't get into Voldemort's head. So, before the end of GoF, the soul connection Harry and Voldemort shared would let Harry observe from near Voldemort but not in Voldemort because Lily's bllod protection prevented it, but after the end of GoF, Harry would be in Voldemort's mind because the blood connection allowed it.


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  #1335  
Old October 20th, 2012, 12:47 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

In regard to Voldemort and destroying the Horcrux...first, start from the beginning. If a wizard with an intact soul had come to murder Harry as a baby, gave Lily a choice and the same magic occurred, that wizard would be dead and his soul just goes on, I guess. Become a ghost, whatever. Now, we all know Voldemort's situation...with his completely damaged soul, doing the same thing had a piece of soul cling to Harry, Tom's body was destroyed, but he could not die because of his Horcruxes. This was a unique situation.

JK has said she only had Dumbledore refer to Harry as a horcrux, because that was the closest definition of whatever Harry was. Harry wasn't evil or have a curse on him, Voldemort never intended to do it and he never cast the horcrux spell or performed the gross ritual that makes the horcrux. Harry isn't a real horcrux.

With that explained, it's also important to understand that there was a reason the prophecy said what it did. "Neither can live while the other survives." Once Voldemort took Harry's blood into his body, he tethered Harry to life. Which is why I don't understand why some people think that if someone else attempted to kill Harry that he would die. In essence, Voldemort is, for lack of a better term, a horcrux for Harry, just as it is the other way around.

Quote:
"He took your blood believing it would strengthen him. He took into his body a tiny part of the enchantment your mother laid upon you when she died for you. His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself." - DD, King's Cross
It does not say you are only protected against attacks from Voldemort, it says, while Tom survives, so does Harry. So, with that said...logic would say that whoever Avada Kedvra's Harry, theortically, should destroy the horcrux because Harry's "container/body" should be destroyed, right? But, Harry isn't a horcrux, and he's also tethered to life by Voldemort. Someone else trying to kill him may not accomplish either task (killing him or destroying Voldy's soul inside him).

It could very well be that the only way to get rid of that soul, in this unique so-called 'horcrux' situation, is that the person who's soul it belongs to has to destroy it themselves...not that they would want to, but Voldemort didn't know it was in there. I don't know why, but that seems to be what it boils down to.


  #1336  
Old October 20th, 2012, 10:07 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by decaye23
With that explained, it's also important to understand that there was a reason the prophecy said what it did. "Neither can live while the other survives." Once Voldemort took Harry's blood into his body, he tethered Harry to life. Which is why I don't understand why some people think that if someone else attempted to kill Harry that he would die. In essence, Voldemort is, for lack of a better term, a horcrux for Harry, just as it is the other way around.
Since Harry is not a horcrux, there is no horcrux-like protection. There has to be a part of your soul outside your body to have horcrux protection, and Harry had no such thing.

The thing about Dumbledore's insistence that Voldemort be the one to kill Harry, is that it gives Harry the chance to live, based solely upon Lily's blood -- that sacrifice was in Harry's blood and then in Voldemort's as well after GOF. So there is a strengthening of the blood protection left from Lily. And the protection was ONLY against dying by Voldemort's hand. Anyone else could have killed Harry. That realization (about Voldy's blood) was the reason for Dumbledore's momentary "gleam of triumph" that Harry thought he saw while relating the graveyard incident. Voldemort wanted to kill Harry personally, all the DE's knew it and Snape reminded them, giving Harry better odds at surviving the inevitable sacrifice by Harry. But Harry could have been killed by anyone else, releasing the soul-piece but Harry would die.


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  #1337  
Old October 21st, 2012, 3:55 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Exactly, a lot of the stuff said about Harry was more or less propaganda/misdirection to set things up for the best chances of Harry's survival.

If Voldemort wasn't so egotistical and told all the DEs to kill Harry, Harry would just be dead.


  #1338  
Old October 21st, 2012, 5:40 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I see where the confusion is now. Understand this. Lily's blood sacrifice is acting the same way as a horcrux would. Its not a soul, its blood. Voldemort is a Lilycrux for Harry and vice versa. Harry was soul and blood for Tom. Understand? Yes i made that term up, because harry aint a horcrux. Anyone can destroy a horcrux. It doesnt work that way with a Lilycrux. If anyone could have killed Harry, why go through all the nonsense, let Snape do it. Let DD do it. Sorry, harry, i need to AK u to wipe out Toms soul. U can come back though, so no worries. Riddle said it had to be him who kill Harry, becaue of the incomplete prophecy, DD was gleaming because Tom just made Harry immortal, well, actually, just living while the Dark Lord lives, when taking his blood, or at least, unkillable,by ANYONE, NOT JUST VOLDEMORT. But not by a soul, but blood. Lilycrux. Understand?



Last edited by decaye23; October 21st, 2012 at 5:56 am.
  #1339  
Old October 21st, 2012, 5:52 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

That's the thing, anyone COULD have killed Harry. Dumbledore knew this, which is why he did his best to promote misinformation in hopes it would delude Voldemort into thinking only he could kill Harry and thus he wouldn't allow anyone else to do it. He's lucky that Voldemort was enough of an arrogant fool to do this.

If Voldemort had said "I want you all to try and kill Potter if you can", Harry would've died anytime after GOF.


  #1340  
Old October 21st, 2012, 7:11 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
That's the thing, anyone COULD have killed Harry. Dumbledore knew this, which is why he did his best to promote misinformation in hopes it would delude Voldemort into thinking only he could kill Harry and thus he wouldn't allow anyone else to do it. He's lucky that Voldemort was enough of an arrogant fool to do this.

If Voldemort had said "I want you all to try and kill Potter if you can", Harry would've died anytime after GOF.
No, if anyone could kill Harry...after GOF, then there is no story, let Barty do it or Bella do it in OOTP or DH. LILYCRUX. While Riddle lives, Harry cannot die because her sacrifice lives in Tom. Why is this not clear? Harry is not a horcrux, he is something undefined.


 
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