Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Diagon Alley > Television

Sherlock



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old August 9th, 2010, 5:09 pm
Mundungus Fletc's Avatar
Mundungus Fletc  Male.gif Mundungus Fletc is offline
Head of the Dept of
Magical Fundraising
 
Joined: 5141 days
Location: England
Posts: 4,488
Re: Sherlock

But even in the original Moriarty isn't believable. I liked the way the script caught the essential silliness of Holmes - I love the books but they are in no sense realistic


Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old August 9th, 2010, 6:14 pm
optimus_pie95  Female.gif optimus_pie95 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3308 days
Location: uk
Posts: 46
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I've watched it again and I found him less bad the second time (if you watch it with the sound on mute, his acting is pretty good), but the sing-song voice is doing my head in and is what stops me believing in him.

The accent, I have been informed, wasn't actually switching from American to UK - it was a type of Dublin accent that can sound a bit like American (particularly, I imagine if you slap a stupid sing-song intonation over the top). I think the only intentional switches were between Irish and the slightly Cockney accent he did for his cover as the IT assistant as Bart's. But it was just annoying.

I've heard some people defending him, saying that people who didn't like him were just unimaginative and wanting the clicheed, middle-aged, calm but cunning villain. I admit my idea of the ideal Moriarty probably is a bit close to the cliche, but I would have been happy to see something different and I would have welcomed a young man, a capricious, twitchy, mood-swinging, flippant, manically psychotic young villain, as long as I could believe in him. But I couldn't.
Ditto about Moriarty, i have read all the SH stories and i was expecting a different and new take on him. The guy wouldn't be so bad, actually quite good if it wasn't for THE-VERY-HIGH-PITCHED-NOT-TO-TAKEN-REALLY-SERIOUSLY-AS-A-MASTER-CRIMINAL-BECAUSE-IT'S-A-SING-SONG voice. As much as i tried to think of him as an evil guy i couldn't, he just doesn't strike me as the one behind all these crimes.


__________________

I'm in GRYFFINDOR!!!......AND I LIKE PIE!
~92% of teens moved on to rap music. If you're part of the 8% that rock out everyday, put this in your sig.~

Last edited by optimus_pie95; August 9th, 2010 at 6:18 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old August 10th, 2010, 8:12 am
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 4786 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,036
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I've heard some people defending him, saying that people who didn't like him were just unimaginative and wanting the clicheed, middle-aged, calm but cunning villain. I admit my idea of the ideal Moriarty probably is a bit close to the cliche, but I would have been happy to see something different and I would have welcomed a young man, a capricious, twitchy, mood-swinging, flippant, manically psychotic young villain, as long as I could believe in him. But I couldn't.
I would have wanted someone who's not young, white, male and successful. How about an Indian Moriarty? A female Moriarty? A disabled Moriarty? I would have been happy with any of that. But I would probably have accepted their choice if the actor had been any good in the role. But he wasn't. He overacted like whoa, he tried to be too many things at once. It was just...ugh.


Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old August 10th, 2010, 8:46 am
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4438 days
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 3,294
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mundungus Fletc View Post
But even in the original Moriarty isn't believable. I liked the way the script caught the essential silliness of Holmes - I love the books but they are in no sense realistic
I agree with that, but I think an actor's job (unless s/he's in a Brecht play or similar) is to totally inhabit the character and convince the audience, no matter how silly the premise. Sherlock's character is totally unbelievable, too, but Cumberbatch plays him in such a way that you can believe in him, even though you know it's hokum. And I think that's particularly important for actors playing monsters and villains (who often are cartoony and silly in theory), because there's no real sense of menace if you don't believe in them.

I'm very interested in what else you thought of the series, Dung.

Quote:
Originally Posted by optimus_pie95 View Post
he just doesn't strike me as the one behind all these crimes.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
I would have wanted someone who's not young, white, male and successful. How about an Indian Moriarty? A female Moriarty? A disabled Moriarty? I would have been happy with any of that.
Me, too. When I said I probably had in mind the cliche, I was thinking of personality, not chromosomes.

In fact, though, disabled villains aren't that uncommon and are a bit of a cliche in themselves, aren't they? The embittered disabled person who's committing monstrous crimes to take his/her revenge on the world? It seems to me that the entire Batman series was predicated on that.

Female villains can also sometimes be problematic, because there's a thin line between breaking the patriarchal stereotype that powerful central characters are always male and reinforcing the misogynistic stereotype that any woman with power is an unnatural monster.

I'd have loved it if it had been Molly, though.



Last edited by Melaszka; August 10th, 2010 at 11:19 am.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old August 10th, 2010, 9:22 am
Mundungus Fletc's Avatar
Mundungus Fletc  Male.gif Mundungus Fletc is offline
Head of the Dept of
Magical Fundraising
 
Joined: 5141 days
Location: England
Posts: 4,488
Re: Sherlock

I loved the series - it's so unusual to have something worth watching in the summer. I wondered about bringing Holmes into the present and in episode one was very annoyed by the texting - it wasn't up long enough for me to read. Once one had suspended disbelief and accepted that the Met would let Holmes anywhere near a crime scene it was well worth watching. It was brought up to date rather cleverly imo - the homeless as the new Baker St irregulars for example. I loved the ending of the episode three - very appropriate for a Dr Who scriptwriter. (Cumberbatch is in the afternoon play on Radio4 today as the young Rumpole btw)


Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old August 10th, 2010, 2:23 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4438 days
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 3,294
Re: Sherlock

Second series confirmed! Yay!!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010...nd-of-comments

I think the Grauniad must have shares in the production company - they've run so many articles on Sherlock over the last few weeks that even I am beginning to find it a bit wearing.

Quote:
Posted by Mundungus Fletcher
I wondered about bringing Holmes into the present and in episode one was very annoyed by the texting - it wasn't up long enough for me to read. Once one had suspended disbelief and accepted that the Met would let Holmes anywhere near a crime scene it was well worth watching. It was brought up to date rather cleverly imo - the homeless as the new Baker St irregulars for example.
I was reading the other day that Martin Freeman's first reaction on being approached for the part was "An updated Sherlock Holmes? That sounds pants", but he totally changed his mind when he saw the script.

More thoughts on Moriarty: I know it was potentially quite offensive to Irish people, but I thought the choice of an Irish actor (Moriarty is, after all, an Irish name) playing a character whose weapon of choice is semtex was inspired and introduced all sorts of scary RL connotations (the sight of a cordoned-off, bombed out Baker Street gave me a terrifying 7/7 flashback). I think they had enough scariness/complexity to be going on with by playing up the Irish and terrorist ideas and they really didn't need to turn him into Joe bleeding Pasquale in order to be "frightening" and "original".


Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old August 10th, 2010, 4:07 pm
Wab's Avatar
Wab  Undisclosed.gif Wab is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5370 days
Location: Mornington Crescent
Posts: 15,280
Re: Sherlock

July 2005 aside, Semtex was the explosive of choice for Irish terrorists during the Troubles.


__________________
A patriot is someone who wants the best for his country, including the best laws and the best ideals. It's something other people should call you -- you shouldn't call yourself that. People who call themselves patriots are usually liars. -- Donald Woods

You got what anybody gets . . . You got a lifetime. -- Death of the Endless
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old August 10th, 2010, 4:26 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4438 days
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 3,294
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
July 2005 aside, Semtex was the explosive of choice for Irish terrorists during the Troubles.
Yes, I know (I am that age!). That was kind of my point - that they'd channelled connotations of the Troubles by casting an IRA actor and making him a Semtex bomber, but that for younger viewers, they were also working chilling parallels with more recent (Al-Qaeda) terrorism.


Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old August 10th, 2010, 8:07 pm
Schlubalybub's Avatar
Schlubalybub  Female.gif Schlubalybub is offline
Suteki da ne
 
Joined: 5556 days
Location: North East Wales
Age: 32
Posts: 2,749
Re: Sherlock

I'm glad a new series has been confirmed. That ending was just annoying...but so moffattesque...


__________________

We asked ourselves, "Can we really fight 24 hours?" And the answer was, "We will fight 8,760 hours!"
- Nobuo Uematsu


Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old August 11th, 2010, 6:42 am
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 4786 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,036
Re: Sherlock

I've been very gleeful ever since I heard the news. I was in no doubt that there would be more, considering the excellent viewing figures, but still. It's nice to have it confirmed. And I love that they plan on keeping the format.


Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old August 11th, 2010, 9:53 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4438 days
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 3,294
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
HOWEVER! When Sherlock opened the letter he remarked that the writer was OBVIOUSLY female. I have still hope that this was another one of Moriarty's deceptions and that it is really Molly.
This is one of a few loose ends which, several days later, is still annoying me.

Spoiler: show
Was it a red herring (like Moriarty addressing Sherlock as "sexy" and the medical/scientific knowledge that would have been necessary to do the botulism thing) designed to make us think it was Molly, when it wasn't? If so, though, it would be pretty shoddy writing to leave it unexplained at the end of the episode, and I don't think Gatiss would do that. I'm assuming that this will be relevant next series, whether it implicates Molly or not.

Also, one of my friends thinks that the person whose outline was vaguely glimpsed e-mailing scary Chinese gangster woman at the end of episode 2 looked like a woman. At the time, I thought that the fact that scary Chinese gangster woman said Moriarty had helped them get a visa to enter the country (or something similar) pointed to either Mycroft or his assistant.

I really hope Molly (or, indeed, any other woman) doesn't turn out to be a fangirl assistant to Jim - if she's involved, I want her to be the main villain.

Another loose end that I don't think was explained (unless Moriarty said it at the end, but I didn't hear because he'd gone too squeaky?) was how Moriarty knew Karl Powers. He'd said in one of the messages that his motive for the murder was that Karl had always laughed at him, but Sherlock said that all Karl's classmates had been checked and were in the clear. Is this going to be significant?


Anyone else got any loose ends that are bothering them?


Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old August 12th, 2010, 6:49 am
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 4786 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,036
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
This is one of a few loose ends which, several days later, is still annoying me.

Spoiler: show
Was it a red herring (like Moriarty addressing Sherlock as "sexy" and the medical/scientific knowledge that would have been necessary to do the botulism thing) designed to make us think it was Molly, when it wasn't? If so, though, it would be pretty shoddy writing to leave it unexplained at the end of the episode, and I don't think Gatiss would do that. I'm assuming that this will be relevant next series, whether it implicates Molly or not.

Also, one of my friends thinks that the person whose outline was vaguely glimpsed e-mailing scary Chinese gangster woman at the end of episode 2 looked like a woman. At the time, I thought that the fact that scary Chinese gangster woman said Moriarty had helped them get a visa to enter the country (or something similar) pointed to either Mycroft or his assistant.

I really hope Molly (or, indeed, any other woman) doesn't turn out to be a fangirl assistant to Jim - if she's involved, I want her to be the main villain.

Another loose end that I don't think was explained (unless Moriarty said it at the end, but I didn't hear because he'd gone too squeaky?) was how Moriarty knew Karl Powers. He'd said in one of the messages that his motive for the murder was that Karl had always laughed at him, but Sherlock said that all Karl's classmates had been checked and were in the clear. Is this going to be significant?


Anyone else got any loose ends that are bothering them?
Spoiler: show
I need to check the scene again but someone on LJ argued that it was the Vermeer sham!curator who wrote the letter. She's from 'Bohemia' and said something about doing things for Moriarty without asking questions.

The point that disturbs my suspense of disbelief would be John repeatedly being kidnapped without putting up a fight. What kind of soldier is he?


Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old August 12th, 2010, 8:55 am
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4438 days
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 3,294
Re: Sherlock

Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
I need to check the scene again but someone on LJ argued that it was the Vermeer sham!curator who wrote the letter. She's from 'Bohemia' and said something about doing things for Moriarty without asking questions.
Ah, thanks, that would make sense. Boring, but it would make sense.

Quote:
The point that disturbs my suspense of disbelief would be John repeatedly being kidnapped without putting up a fight. What kind of soldier is he?
A not very good one? I think the kidnappings have been offscreen so far, haven't they? So I suppose he could have put up a brave fight before being helplessly overpowered. He looks kind of tidy, though, if that were the case.


Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old August 12th, 2010, 9:41 am
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4658 days
Posts: 2,036
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Spoiler: show
I need to check the scene again but someone on LJ argued that it was the Vermeer sham!curator who wrote the letter. She's from 'Bohemia' and said something about doing things for Moriarty without asking questions.
That's what I thought.

Spoiler: show
Sherlock mentions that the stationary used was Bohemian, Czech and as the curator was called Miss Wenceslas I assumed she was also Czech and I just drew conclusions.


Anyway, I really enjoyed the series and am pleased they are going to do a second.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; August 12th, 2010 at 10:51 am.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old August 12th, 2010, 9:39 pm
Annielogic's Avatar
Annielogic  Female.gif Annielogic is offline
P.A. to Lucius Malfoy
 
Joined: 3986 days
Location: Studying in a library
Posts: 996
Re: Sherlock

I'm very pleased about the news of a future series!

The dynamics between Sherlock and Watson has developed brilliantly: their interactions flowed naturally and believeably. Imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
but I think an actor's job (unless s/he's in a Brecht play or similar) is to totally inhabit the character and convince the audience, no matter how silly the premise. Sherlock's character is totally unbelievable, too, but Cumberbatch plays him in such a way that you can believe in him, even though you know it's hokum. And I think that's particularly important for actors playing monsters and villains (who often are cartoony and silly in theory), because there's no real sense of menace if you don't believe in them.
My initial thoughts were centered around whether the actor was potraying Moriarty as possessing a desire for theatrics and an unpredictably whimsical element to his personality, or if he pretends to be like that to unhinge his opponent. He seems a challenge to second-guess at any rate. I'm at a "wait and see" stage with Moriarty, give the actor a chance with more screen time.


Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old August 13th, 2010, 8:59 am
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 4786 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,036
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
My initial thoughts were centered around whether the actor was potraying Moriarty as possessing a desire for theatrics and an unpredictably whimsical element to his personality, or if he pretends to be like that to unhinge his opponent. He seems a challenge to second-guess at any rate. I'm at a "wait and see" stage with Moriarty, give the actor a chance with more screen time.
I'm with Melaszka here, he didn't actually inhabit the unpredictably crazy character he wanted to portray. Sorry to bring up Doctor Who again but John Simm's Master is such a great example. His Master was so much crazier than the previous regenerations and yet Simm made the Master believable and scary. I also found him amusing and brilliant but still, scary and unpredictable. Moriarty is missing something to make me believe him. I saw the actor acting and what I saw was pretty bad.


Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old August 13th, 2010, 11:59 am
Annielogic's Avatar
Annielogic  Female.gif Annielogic is offline
P.A. to Lucius Malfoy
 
Joined: 3986 days
Location: Studying in a library
Posts: 996
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
I'm with Melaszka here, he didn't actually inhabit the unpredictably crazy character he wanted to portray.
That's probably why I was left at a loss as to what angle the actor was approaching the character's personality from, or motivations for his behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post

Moriarty is missing something to make me believe him. I saw the actor acting and what I saw was pretty bad.
Seeing an actor attempting/struggling to fufill the role is intrusive and shatters the believable element for a lot of the audience, I definitely agree with you there.


Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old August 13th, 2010, 1:55 pm
FlashMemory's Avatar
FlashMemory  Female.gif FlashMemory is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3324 days
Location: Elstead
Age: 24
Posts: 433
Re: Sherlock

I loved the whole series, the dynamic between Holmes and Watson was amazing, the dark humour was great and the modernisation could have been so much worse!

Spoiler: show


I've finally caught up with the last episode on iplayer and agree it was undoubtedly the best. Is it weird that my favourite parts were the slightly pointless domestic scenes? The idea that Holmes would be bored most of the time really makes sense as there's got to be hardly anything that would stimulate his massive brainbox. I also loved his relationship with is brother but was dissapointed that there wasn't any real resolution of that storyline in the end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieLogic
Seeing an actor attempting/struggling to fufill the role is intrusive and shatters the believable element for a lot of the audience, I definitely agree with you there.
His character just didn't seem to fit with the crimes he was supposed to have committed. To me, it felt as though the writers were making you believe that the crimes were committed by an evil genius who was every bit as perceptive as Holmes, so that he was able to predict Holmes' actions and constanly stay one step ahead of him but the reality didn't fit that, Moriarty seemed quite slow and predictable, which wasn't what I was expecting. It didn't really bother me about his voice (which to be honest I barely noticed before reading reviews) but nothing in his character seemed to match his supposed actions. Plus of course, reading the reviews posted here in previous weeks had me convinced that Moriarty would be a woman so I was vaguely dissapointed with the outcome and constantly expecting the real Moriarty to jump out from behind a shiny curtain, which didn't happen I like the idea that it could still happen but why would they leave that revelation to a second series that they didn't always know would go ahead?




Last edited by FlashMemory; August 13th, 2010 at 5:49 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old August 13th, 2010, 3:53 pm
Melaszka's Avatar
Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
HighFunctioning Sociopath
 
Joined: 4438 days
Location: England
Age: 50
Posts: 3,294
Re: Sherlock

Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashMemory View Post
Is it weird that my favourite parts were the slightly pointless domestic scenes?
Not at all - they were my favourite bits, too. I think the great strength of this series is the characters and relationships, not the plots and the action.

Quote:
The idea that Holmes would be bored most of the time really makes sense as there's got to be hardly anything that would stimulate his massive brainbox.
Plus, if he's a sociopath, he doesn't get the satisfaction out of relationships that the rest of us do, so is having to seek his kicks elsewhere? I just love what they're doing with his character.

Quote:
I also loved his relationship with is brother but was dissapointed that there wasn't any real resolution of that storyline in the end.
I'm sure that's going to be a running motif in series 2, though. We'll just have to be patient.

Quote:
Plus of course, reading the reviews posted here in previous weeks had me convinced that Moriarty would be a woman so I was vaguely dissapointed with the outcome and constantly expecting the real Moriarty to jump out from behind a shiny curtain, which didn't happen
Sorry for misleading you and getting your hopes up. I was disappointed, too. I think I made the exact same mistake I did with HP before DH - tried to imagine something far too elaborate and complex.

Quote:
I like the idea that it could still happen but why would they leave that revelation to a second series that they didn't always know would go ahead?
I know. I'm resigning myself to the fact that this is THE Moriarty and just hoping he grows on me in series 2. It's perhaps unfair of me to write him off after only a few minutes' screen time.


For me, the most unrealistic thing about ep3 was that Mrs Hudson couldn't get a tenant interested in 221c! She would have no problems renting a flat that central, no matter how damp it was.

Apparently, Benedict Cumberbatch so overexerted himself filming the series, that he became very ill with pneumonia by the time they stopped shooting. I think that became evident in the last episode, where he suddenly started to really look his age and in some scenes they'd slapped so much make-up on him to cover the bags under his eyes, it was really obvious (e.g. the scene where he's examining Connie Prince's body, he's absolutely caked in the stuff). Not that I'm obsessed with him or anything....



Last edited by Melaszka; August 13th, 2010 at 4:05 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old August 13th, 2010, 7:31 pm
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 4786 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,036
Re: Sherlock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post

Apparently, Benedict Cumberbatch so overexerted himself filming the series, that he became very ill with pneumonia by the time they stopped shooting. I think that became evident in the last episode, where he suddenly started to really look his age and in some scenes they'd slapped so much make-up on him to cover the bags under his eyes, it was really obvious (e.g. the scene where he's examining Connie Prince's body, he's absolutely caked in the stuff). Not that I'm obsessed with him or anything....
I think his pneumonia happened before that. I've seen five minutes of the unaired pilot and, boy, he looked ill! They changed quite a few things from the pilot, so they even had to reshoot scenes they used later on.


Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Diagon Alley > Television

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 9:54 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright its respective owners.