Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8



View Poll Results: Snape's main feeling for James would be...
Loathing 25 15.53%
Contempt 16 9.94%
Envy 27 16.77%
Hatred 17 10.56%
Jealousy 59 36.65%
Regret 0 0%
You're evil for restricting the options and not even putting up my favourite. 17 10.56%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
  #1341  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:05 pm
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5110 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh77 View Post
That would be imply that Snape loved her inspite all these objections but it doesn't imply that Snape loved her no-holds barred. He kind of expected Lily to continue hating James (Remember DH) throughout her life and didn't like it when she got friendly with him. If the love had been unconditional he would have treated Harry honorably throughout.
His treatment to Harry was not due to him lashing out at Lily, though. That came from his anger at Harry or James.

And as a kid, he did not expect Lily to continue hating James at all. On the contrary, can you see his desperation during their argument when James comes up. He knows she likes James. But he loves her, so he isn't going to be jumping for joy about it.

He could easily have felt betrayed that she'd married James and simply let Voldemort kill her. But he didn't. He still loved her. Again, that's what unconditional means-- loving someone despite reasons not to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh77 View Post
One thing I would like to add here. I know that many of you adore Snape a lot but seriously even JKR admits that his character is a complex one i.e. he is good in some areas and bad in some. I feel that many of you look at him as if he is a saint. The part of his charm is his somewhat flawed character which actually makes him seem human. Just a difference of perception, I guess. And please, this not related with elections but just a discussion w.r.t. books. I will post any election related stuff in the Quibbler as I have done earlier.
Although I've heard it several times, I still take umbrage to the accusation. Nobody is trying to make Snape look like a saint. Who loves a saint? There's nothing understandable or human in someone utterly perfect.

The posters here know that Snape has faults. We know he does wrong, and sometimes for the wrong reasons. Many of us, however, do not feel that the wrongs he commits are worth underlining several times just to prove how "bad" he is. When discussing a person, it's far less interesting to just say "OMG this was such a terrible thing for them to do!" than to ask "Why?"


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
Sponsored Links
  #1342  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:14 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5413 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I agree with you, but that moral greatness came after a long time IMO. Dumbledore waited until he could wait no longer, until it would have looked more than cowardly before he faced Grindelwald and imprisoned him. So for Dumbeldore too, facing his past took time IMO.
Time Snape did not end up having, yes. In 1945 Albus was more than a decade older than Snape was at his death.

Quote:
Also he did not need to do Snape's job ot spying, which made Snape's lot tougher. Snape too moved away, but I think it was hidden, because of who he was; a spy.
I think the spying is more significant in this regard. Snape could have turned his back on Voldemort fully and openly, burning those bridges. It would seem, though, that this would have been far less useful to the "good side" than what Snape actually did, at least if Albus Dumbledore's own statements on the matter are to be believed.

Quote:
Snape also turned, not after Lily's death, like Dumbledore, who turned after Ariana was killed, but at the the moment Harry was targeted and he knew Lily would die saving her son.
In this regard I do not see him as diferent from Albus. I do not believe he perceived a threat from Grindelwald; the threat to Lily that turned Snape was far more clear. So unlike Snape, Albus had the realiztion and the death, without any chance to act on the former.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.

Last edited by arithmancer; August 18th, 2008 at 3:17 pm.
  #1343  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:28 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5274 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
The posters here know that Snape has faults. We know he does wrong, and sometimes for the wrong reasons. Many of us, however, do not feel that the wrongs he commits are worth underlining several times just to prove how "bad" he is. When discussing a person, it's far less interesting to just say "OMG this was such a terrible thing for them to do!" than to ask "Why?"
Well it may be because Snape's behavior as a character can leave one feeling like ~ and the answer to "why" he behaved that way can leave one feeling like . .

I think characteristically, Snape often behaved in an unexpected manner. Things that I would have expected him to pass over or let go of, he doesn't. Other areas in which I would think he would take care and be respectful of, he wasn't. He very rarely suprised me by behaving in a manner that I felt was appropriate for any given circumstance. I can actually only think of two times: agreeing to help look for a cure for Katie and trying to heal Dumbledore's hand. Otherwise, his behavior was always very contrary to what I suppose I hoped it would be ~ and in the other few instances when they were not, his behavior or subsequent/previous behavior/actions often tainted the results.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 18th, 2008 at 3:34 pm.
  #1344  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:37 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4792 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh77 View Post
Unconditional?
I think so. Otherwise how would Snape have a love for a woman who married a man he hated? He would have in the 4-5 years moved on because he knew Lily did not love him and he knew she was happy. The fact she was happy with James alone would have been enough for Snape to turn away and even start disliking her, had his love been only a deep affection. But his love was unconditional and so it did last IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia View Post
Snape may have loved Lily despite she left him, married James, and having Harry, but he didn't love her for what she did. That doesn't say "unconditional" to me.
I don't understand. Loving anyone is despite or in spite of; not for something or because of something IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
His treatment to Harry was not due to him lashing out at Lily, though. That came from his anger at Harry or James.
More than Harry, it was James IMO. I am sure we are given Sirius's treatment of Kreacher only to tell us that a turbulent past can be explosive. Sirius was reminded of his past and he took it out on Kreacher who hated him; while Snape was wounded by James (Dumbeldore - OOTP) and when he looked at a carbon copy of James standing there before him, the past could at times take over the present and Harry hated Snape as well IMO. That is why I feel we are told a million times that Harry looks exactly like James. But to show that Snape did not hate Harry, we have "he has his mother's eyes" IMO.

While Sirius never made his peace with kreacher, Snape made his peace with Harry IMO.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #1345  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:44 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5274 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I don't understand. Loving anyone is despite or in spite of; not for something or because of something IMO.
I think it is questioned because this sentence does not jive: Snape loved Lily so much and so unconditionally that he cruelly mistreated and belittled her son.

Snape's behavior as a character appears to have contradicted the idea that he would do 'anything' for Lily based on his unconditional feelings for her. Instead, Snape's behavior spoke more to doing what he wanted to do based on all of the emotions he carried inside of him; many of which had little to do with Lily, imo. That is why I feel it is a more character-based issue than anything else.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 18th, 2008 at 3:51 pm.
  #1346  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:46 pm
kaustubh77  Male.gif kaustubh77 is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 4770 days
Location: In Digital Fortress
Age: 31
Posts: 92
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
His treatment to Harry was not due to him lashing out at Lily, though. That came from his anger at Harry or James.
So are you implying that Snape disliked Harry without prejudice?

Quote:
And as a kid, he did not expect Lily to continue hating James at all. On the contrary, can you see his desperation during their argument when James comes up. He knows she likes James. But he loves her, so he isn't going to be jumping for joy about it.
A big difference of perception! Snape clearly was cunning and sneaky when he was young. Snape was many things but not desperate. Anxious sure, not desperate.

Quote:
He could easily have felt betrayed that she'd married James and simply let Voldemort kill her. But he didn't. He still loved her. Again, that's what unconditional means-- loving someone despite reasons not to.
How can he possibly feel betrayed by Lily when there is no evidence that he had told Lily about his love?

Quote:
The posters here know that Snape has faults. We know he does wrong, and sometimes for the wrong reasons. Many of us, however, do not feel that the wrongs he commits are worth underlining several times just to prove how "bad" he is.
At no instance have I said that Snape is bad. I have just said that his love for Lily was not unconditional. For me unconditional love is what Tonks feels for Remus. And about the saint point: I was pointing to the fact that some of the posters only see the good side of his quotes in many instances (like the way you posted that Snape was desperate for Lily not to like James and to me it looked like Snape was more cunning) As I said earlier it is a difference in perception .


__________________

I don't know what to write here!!!
  #1347  
Old August 18th, 2008, 3:59 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5413 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

DH, "The Prince's Tale""He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!" The words seemed wrenched from him against his will.


I agree with those who would use the word "desperate" rather than the words "anxious, cunning, and sneaky" to describe young Snape in his relationship with Lily. Looking back at the scenes with her, I think this segment I quoted would be the clincher for me. He's not saying this about James to test the waters, and turn Lily off James in some way. He is not saying it in a calculated way at all. I see no reason to doubt the narrator's perception that these words were indeed "wrenched from him" because of the degree to which James's interest in Lily threatened him.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #1348  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:11 pm
kaustubh77  Male.gif kaustubh77 is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 4770 days
Location: In Digital Fortress
Age: 31
Posts: 92
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Rowling in an interview adds that Snape is immensely brave,[14] and when asked if she considers Snape a hero, replied: "Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity — and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!"
I think this quote sums up Snape the best. I belive that both sides will go on debating their views and there is no actual end to the debate. Unconditional or not, Snape's love for Lily was one of the highlights of the book. The author has left room for interpretation where Snape is concerned and I think it's better that way.


__________________

I don't know what to write here!!!
  #1349  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:23 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5274 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

I respect Jo's opinion there - as well as the fact that Snape laid down his life in light of his emotions for Lily (which goes with my theory that after he adopted the plan to kill Harry he was not working for the "greater good", but because he wanted to take down Voldemort on Lily's behalf). But I think her opinion leaves out the fact that Snape was also very disrespectful with regard to his emotions for Lily in his treatment of her loved ones. I am not saying that JKR doesn't also feel that way, she may, but she didn't include it in that particular statement if she does. My personal view is that he was extremely disrespectful to Lily in that regard and that fatally taints any goodness that came from it in my judgment. I couldn't care less if Snape ended up on the good side or bad side and why he changed sides was also fairly unimportant to me. But his behavior really required redemption and that was not achieved - on purpose in my view - so the character was fatally flawed as a result, imo.

I don't think JKR believed that would serve to thwart her idea - that Snape showing endurance and laying down his life for the love he felt for Lily - was a positive aspect of his character. But for me it did, to the point where I can only acknowledge that Snape did this, but on such a wrongful level, it is nearly without value and/or merit to me. For me, the only thing Snape's efforts proved was that he had rejected Voldemort ~ the "why" is so fatally flawed as to be immaterial and irrelevant, imo.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 18th, 2008 at 4:32 pm.
  #1350  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:27 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4792 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I think it is questioned because this sentence does not jive: Snape loved Lily so much and so unconditionally that he cruelly mistreated and belittled her son.

Snape's behavior as a character appears to have contradicted the idea that he would do 'anything' for Lily based on his unconditional feelings for her. Instead, Snape's behavior spoke more to doing what he wanted to do based on all of the emotions he carried inside of him; many of which had little to do with Lily, imo. That is why I feel it is a more character-based issue than anything else.
To show a person he/she is loved, loving him/her IMO would do the trick IMO. Snape loved her. In his heart love sprang up for Lily. It fulfilled him. Had she reciprocated it, then his love would have filled her too. But she did not love him, so his love did not embrace her (ETA :: but his love was still with her whether she liked it or not and he still belonged to her) IMO.

Unconditional was his love; not his promise for her that he would do "anything". That he gave Dumbeldore; gave him permission to use him in any way Dumbeldore saw it fit to. And for that unconditional; promise Snape killed and died IMO.

For why Snape treated Harry, I have answered in my post from which you have quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh77 View Post
So are you implying that Snape disliked Harry without prejudice?
My opinion is that Snape never hated Harry at all and I respectfully but very firmly disagree with JKR who failed to show this in the books for me.

I ahve answered why Snape was harsh to Harry in my previous post.

Quote:
A big difference of perception! Snape clearly was cunning and sneaky when he was young.
Could you give some examples from canon?

Quote:
How can he possibly feel betrayed by Lily when there is no evidence that he had told Lily about his love?
Betrayed because she married the man, whose idea of good fun was the SWM, I suppose.

Quote:
And about the saint point: I was pointing to the fact that some of the posters only see the good side of his quotes in many instances (like the way you posted that Snape was desperate for Lily not to like James and to me it looked like Snape was more cunning) As I said earlier it is a difference in perception .
I am sure that almost all of those who post here are aware that Snape is more human than many of the other characters in the HP world.

I know I don't think Snape is perfect; the attraction for me is because he is not.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:

Last edited by The_Green_Woods; August 18th, 2008 at 4:56 pm.
  #1351  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:44 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5413 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh77 View Post
I think this quote sums up Snape the best. I belive that both sides will go on debating their views and there is no actual end to the debate. Unconditional or not, Snape's love for Lily was one of the highlights of the book.
I was not aware that I had been taking a "side" in this recent discussion. I was merely endeavoring to present the basis for my own view of a specific point (Snape's feelings towards James and Lily before the breakup of their friendship), by looking at what we actually are shown. For me that is the point of this sort of discussion. Not to finally answer a question of enormous fuzziness such as "Was Snape Good/A Hero/A Saint, etc." (since all those things can mean many things to many people and therefore the question cannot possibly have a single answer) but to have a better understanding of all facets of the character thorugh an exchange of views with others. ANd have fun remembering parts of the series I may not have looked at recently, of course!

Quote:
The author has left room for interpretation where Snape is concerned and I think it's better that way.
I agree; it is one reason I don't worry much about the opinions she expresses about her characters. Why should I give up the freedom of interpretation that she herself has left open in her work?

To clarify me previous post - I was not denying Snape was cunning and sneaky. He was both, I would imagine, from an early age, and remained both until the day he died. And a darned good thing that was too, forthright spies do not live long. He probably learned it first in sneaking away from family disputes as a young child, found it an advantageous strategy when outnumbered by the popular Marauders, and relied on it in his years as a spy.

But the uncontrolled emotion that leaks through in his scenes with Lily is nonetheless there. Cunning is a strategy of dealing with life - love and the fear of losing Lily to James before he has even declared himself, are powerful feelings that dictate what he will pursue using that strategy.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #1352  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:45 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5274 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
To show a person he/she is loved, loving him/her IMO would do the trick IMO. Snape loved her.
I respect your opinion. But for me, it is a love so tainted, I could equally characterize it as hatred.* Again, my opinion rests on a very character based analysis here, rather than an esoteric ideology. Snape's overall behavior (not just his treatment of Harry) was linked to his emotion for Lily in my view and the emotion inciting such behavior, on the whole, can only be an extremely negative one in my view.



*to clarify: I love you and it makes me behave in this manner: bitter, cruel, vindictive, disrespectful, abusive of my position as a professor, cold-hearted, hateful to those you love, and brave. In reality, I hate you.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; August 18th, 2008 at 5:02 pm.
  #1353  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:47 pm
boushh's Avatar
boushh  Female.gif boushh is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4490 days
Location: Back in Sev's Corner
Age: 47
Posts: 2,557
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

My impression of young Severus (in his interaction with Lily at least) during the Hogwarts years was that he was insecure and desperate. I really did not see him behaving in a cunning way at all. Maybe I'll feel differently when I read those bits again, but at this point I'm still left with an impression of desperation and insecurity.

As for him not being able to be unconditionally in love with Lily and yet treat Harry badly... I think that's where his flaws come into play. I think his treatment of Harry is a result of many thing and is complicated. I think in some ways he was trying to help, but this very damaged person that he's become does not allow it to come across in a more constructive or nurturing way. If he treated Harry like Lupin did for example, he'd be a different person. He'd be heading towards being this perfect guy (still not perfect by any means) or a Snape/Lupin/Sirius amalgamation.

I think that his background, his mistakes, his guilt, his insecurity, his failures, his feelings about James, all make it difficult for him to be able to extend the love that he had for Lily to Harry. Still, he tried to help Harry and protect him in whatever way he could, despite how difficult his deep seated flaws would make it for him, and how atypical the approach would be in him bringing that help and protection to Harry...

Anyway, those are my personal thoughts on the matter. I don't think I was completely able to convey what I mean, but there it is.


  #1354  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:51 pm
kaustubh77  Male.gif kaustubh77 is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 4770 days
Location: In Digital Fortress
Age: 31
Posts: 92
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
I know I don't think Snape is perfect; the attraction for me is because he is not.
Precisely.

Quote:
Betrayed because she married the man, whose idea of good fun was the SWM, I suppose.
I think that the feeling of loath was mutual.


__________________

I don't know what to write here!!!
  #1355  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:53 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5413 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

His protection of Harry was unconditional, for that matter. He did not, in PS/SS, when ranting about him to Albus, say "I can't stand the little Potter brat, so I've changed my mind about protecting him."

"Unconditional" does not have to be a positive, I would add. Lily's love of Snape (as a friend) was not unconditional - she gave it up because she disapproved of Snape's choices. It can, and certainly has, been argued that she was right to do this.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #1356  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:57 pm
kaustubh77  Male.gif kaustubh77 is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 4770 days
Location: In Digital Fortress
Age: 31
Posts: 92
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
I respect your opinion. But for me, it is a love so tainted, I could equally characterize it as hatred. Again, my opinion rests on a very character based analysis here, rather than an esoteric ideology. Snape's overall behavior (not just his treatment of Harry) was linked to his emotion for Lily in my view and the emotion inciting such behavior, on the whole, can only be an extremely negative one in my view.
Though I don't believe that Snape's love for Lily was unconditional, I also don't think his love was based on a negative aspect. Love rarely is and when a person feels remorseful for his action solely based on that it can be nothing but positive.

For me, there are various phases in Snape's life:
1. Pre-Hogwart's
2. Hogwart's prior to Owl's.
3. Hogwart's after Owls
4. Snape as a DE before prophesy.
5. Snape after Prophesy.
6. Snape as Professor.
7. Snape as a spy.

In some of them he is great and in some not so. Hadn't it been for love, Snape would have gone mad long before he died.


__________________

I don't know what to write here!!!
  #1357  
Old August 18th, 2008, 4:59 pm
boushh's Avatar
boushh  Female.gif boushh is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4490 days
Location: Back in Sev's Corner
Age: 47
Posts: 2,557
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
His protection of Harry was unconditional, for that matter. He did not, in PS/SS, when ranting about him to Albus, say "I can't stand the little Potter brat, so I've changed my mind about protecting him."
This is a good point. I didn't really get the impression that he'd be dropping that job of protecting Harry as long as he could do it and as long as it mattered, since by the end Harry's fate was sealed in order to protect the entire wizarding world.

Quote:
"Unconditional" does not have to be a positive, I would add. Lily's love of Snape (as a friend) was not unconditional - she gave it up because she disapproved of Snape's choices. It can, and certainly has, been argued that she was right to do this.
Well, by then it would have certainly come to her attention that being friends with him was going to be rather dangerous for her, unless he changed his path. So I'm one of those that doesn't blame her for ending the friendship, unless I read it again and end up changing my mind.


  #1358  
Old August 18th, 2008, 5:02 pm
PerfectDystopia  Female.gif PerfectDystopia is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4529 days
Location: in Jayne Mansfield's car
Age: 27
Posts: 544
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods
I don't understand. Loving anyone is despite or in spite of; not for something or because of something IMO.
I disagree. I think if you loved someone, truly loved someone, you love them for what they are, not you want them to be. You don't love them despite their "faults", but you instead, love them for it. My best friend is a very neurotic, highstrung person who acts like she is always PMSing. I don't love her despite she is all those things, but I love her because she is all those things. They are not desirable traits, but they are the traits that make her what she is.

And that's why I don't think Snape's love was unconditional. He loved Lily despite she was James' wife and Harry's mother. He didn't like those things about her, but no matter how much he disliked it, the fact reamains that Lily was James' wife and Harry's mother. Those two things are two very fundamental things that make her who she is. IMO, He couldn't celebrate Lily as a whole because he couldn't stand that fact she was James' wife and Harry's mother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods
Betrayed because she married the man, whose idea of good fun was the SWM, I suppose.
Well, it is not like Lily married 15-year-old!James.
Betrayed is such a "unfitting" word to me. After Lily and Snape broke up, Lily had no allegiance to Snape. Lily was free to date/shag/marry anyone she wants. Why should Snape feel betrayed by Lily, when she had no obligation to him and he knew it?


__________________




Last edited by PerfectDystopia; August 18th, 2008 at 5:27 pm.
  #1359  
Old August 18th, 2008, 5:03 pm
Pearl_Took's Avatar
Pearl_Took  Female.gif Pearl_Took is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4562 days
Location: The Shire
Posts: 3,634
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect Jo's opinion there - as well as the fact that Snape laid down his life in light of his emotions for Lily (which goes with my theory that after he adopted the plan to kill Harry he was not working for the "greater good", but because he wanted to take down Voldemort on Lily's behalf).
I agree that was his prime motivation in 1981.

I think he had changed, by 1998.

Quote:
But I think her opinion leaves out the fact that Snape was also very disloyal to his emotions for Lily in his treatment of her loved ones. I am not saying that JKR doesn't also feel that way, she may, but she didn't include it in that particular statement if she does. My personal view is that he was extremely disloyal to Lily in that regard and that fatally taints any goodness that came from it in my judgment.
I happen to agree with your view that Snape's love for Lily had an obsessive, dysfunctional quality. I'm moved by it, I'm moved by his story, but there is a huge dichotomy between his love for Lily, and his reactions to her husband and child ... he still can't bear to see the three of them together, even so long after James and Lily's deaths (I'm thinking of when he sees the photo of all them together.)

However, I do not regard Snape as 'fatally' tainted by his (admittedly considerable) character flaws. His courage and loyalty to Dumbledore, in all his years as a double agent, are shown and proved in The Prince's Tale, IMO.

Quote:
But his behavior really required redemption and that was not achieved - on purpose in my view - so the character was fatally flawed as a result, imo.
But didn't JKR say that she wanted Snape to be redeemed?

And 'fatally flawed' he might be, but he's still a darned sight more interesting than most other people in the Potterverse. (OK, there are other characters I like and find fascinating too. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
My opinion is that Snape never hated Harry at all and I respectfully but very firmly disagree with JKR who failed to show this in the books for me.
I really am not quite sure why you think he never hated Harry. I think canon shows that he did. I mean, it's actually a powerful part of Snape's overall character arc, isn't it? He's sworn to protect the son of the woman he loved and the man he hated ... it's hardly surprising that he wrestles with such strong emotions! The strong dislike is there in the books for me ... right alongside the determination to bring down Voldemort for Lily's sake and the vow to protect Harry. "Anything," he says to Albus, and he means it.

(I was, however, very disappointed in Rowling's insistence that Snape hated Harry until he died. )


__________________
  #1360  
Old August 18th, 2008, 5:07 pm
kaustubh77  Male.gif kaustubh77 is offline
Assistant to Minister Granger
 
Joined: 4770 days
Location: In Digital Fortress
Age: 31
Posts: 92
Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.8

Quote:
I disagree. I think if you loved someone, truly loved someone, you love them for what they are, not you want them to be. You don't love them despite their "faults", but you instead, love them for it. My best friend is a very neurotic, highstrung person who acts like she is always PMSing. I don't love her despite she is all those things, but I love her because she is all those things. They are not desirable traits, but they are the traits that make her what she is.

And that's why I don't think Snape's love was unconditional. He loved Lily despite she was James' wife and Harry's mother. He didn't like those things about her, but no matter how much he disliked it, the fact reamains that Lily was James' wife and Harry's mother. Those two things are two very fundamental things that make her who she is. IMO, He couldn't celebrate Lily as a whole because he couldn't stand that fact she was James' wife and Harry's mother.
That's what I have been trying to say for the past hour but couldn't put it into words. Great post and I totally agree with it!

Quote:
I was, however, very disappointed in Rowling's insistence that Snape hated Harry until he died. )
The last sentence of Snape where he asks Harry to look at him so that he can see his emerald eyes was one of the most moving moments of the series.


__________________

I don't know what to write here!!!
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks

Tags
character analysis, severus snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 9:32 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.