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Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3



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  #81  
Old May 7th, 2014, 10:09 am
sailorlum  Female.gif sailorlum is offline
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
I agree, she was absolutely right dropping someone she didn't like or respect anymore. But she didn't discover his unpleasant pals this precise day, right? And she didn't stop their friendship before. So, at the moment when James started torturing Snape, Lily and him technically still were "friends". That's why I think she didn't play that beutiful role flirting with "the biggest bully on the ground" instead of effectively helping her "friend" (and even making things worse). Yes, she walked away from a toxic realtionship, but she did it at the moment the other person had been severely bullied and publicly humiliated. You can have all the moral right in the world and still look quite bad...

And of course, we know Mulciber & Co. finally became Death Eaters, but at school, what real difference was between them and the Marauders? All of them were merrily hexing people they didn't like. Surely, that was Snape's point of view.
First of all, the idea that Lily was flirting is an assumption or an opinion, and not everyone agrees that's what she was doing. As I said earlier, I don't see how that can be viewed as flirting, at least not on Lily's part.

Seriously, I want to know, why exactly do you think Lily was flirting with James in that scene?

Second of all, just because someone is hurt, that doesn't obligate another person to stay in a relationship with the hurt person just because they are hurt, especially if the hurt person is getting left because they laid down a final straw that broke the camel's back. I could understand thinking that it was bad timing on Lily's part if Snape hadn't laid down the final straw in that moment, and she just chose that moment to dump him on a whim, but he did lay down a final straw, and the relationship had gotten toxic before then, no whim required to end it. Snape crossed a line he hadn't crossed before, and surely Lily had the right to draw a line in the sand and say "no more". And even if Lily had just decided that she just couldn't take the current level of toxicity anymore (even without the final straw), and she drew a line in the sand further back than she'd previously had it, that's still her right, bad timing for Snape or no.

And Snape was outright refusing that he even needed Lily's help, to boot. I think she really would have to be a Saint to try and help him after he simultaneously attacked her and said he didn't need her help. I'm not sure even a Saint would help someone (who was mentally competent enough to give consent (which I believe Snape was)) who was refusing help or saying they didn't need help, since that would be overstepping that person's (the helpee's) boundaries. It's the same reason that hospitals are required to let patients refuse help, even life saving help, if they are mentally competent to give consent.

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Originally Posted by twinsrule26 View Post
I feel that their wasn't any chance of patching things up between them after Petunia discovered tha she wasn't magical like Lily.
I think Petunia could have decided to let go of her bitterness about not being magical, but Lily had no control over whether she did that or not, and it takes two to patch up a relationship, so there was no chance so long as Petunia would refuse to change. (I think Lily wanted to patch things up, but she couldn't force it.) So I think we agree, basically, so long as you don't think Petunia was doomed to her bitterness and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by twinsrule26 View Post
I think she finally listened to her friends and dumped him . I wonder if she had started thinking about going out with James around that time ?
Seeing as Lily had said that James was as bad as Snape, around this time, and she had just dumped Snape as a friend, I don't think she had any thought or intention of going out with James, at that point in time. I don't think Lily thought about going out with James until he deflated his head some and stopped being a bully.


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Last edited by sailorlum; May 7th, 2014 at 10:23 am. Reason: edited last sentence for clarity
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  #82  
Old May 7th, 2014, 7:26 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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First of all, the idea that Lily was flirting is an assumption or an opinion, and not everyone agrees that's what she was doing. As I said earlier, I don't see how that can be viewed as flirting, at least not on Lily's part.

Seriously, I want to know, why exactly do you think Lily was flirting with James in that scene?

Second of all, just because someone is hurt, that doesn't obligate another person to stay in a relationship with the hurt person just because they are hurt, especially if the hurt person is getting left because they laid down a final straw that broke the camel's back. I could understand thinking that it was bad timing on Lily's part if Snape hadn't laid down the final straw in that moment, and she just chose that moment to dump him on a whim, but he did lay down a final straw, and the relationship had gotten toxic before then, no whim required to end it. Snape crossed a line he hadn't crossed before, and surely Lily had the right to draw a line in the sand and say "no more". And even if Lily had just decided that she just couldn't take the current level of toxicity anymore (even without the final straw), and she drew a line in the sand further back than she'd previously had it, that's still her right, bad timing for Snape or no.

And Snape was outright refusing that he even needed Lily's help, to boot. I think she really would have to be a Saint to try and help him after he simultaneously attacked her and said he didn't need her help. I'm not sure even a Saint would help someone (who was mentally competent enough to give consent (which I believe Snape was)) who was refusing help or saying they didn't need help, since that would be overstepping that person's (the helpee's) boundaries. It's the same reason that hospitals are required to let patients refuse help, even life saving help, if they are mentally competent to give consent.



I think Petunia could have decided to let go of her bitterness about not being magical, but Lily had no control over whether she did that or not, and it takes two to patch up a relationship, so there was no chance so long as Petunia would refuse to change. (I think Lily wanted to patch things up, but she couldn't force it.) So I think we agree, basically, so long as you don't think Petunia was doomed to her bitterness and whatnot.



Seeing as Lily had said that James was as bad as Snape, around this time, and she had just dumped Snape as a friend, I don't think she had any thought or intention of going out with James, at that point in time. I don't think Lily thought about going out with James until he deflated his head some and stopped being a bully.
But James wasn't as bad as Snape when you consider where Snape's priorities laid at the time. It can be debated whether or not by the reader's standards James was as bad or worse than Snape. But going by LILY'S priorities, right before and right after SWM, clearly James had much more in common with her than Snape. Would she have given James the time of day immediately after SWM. Not for awhile after SWM, surely, where the loss of her friend would have hurt but eventually, without Snape to cause friction and assuming that James became much more in tune with her feelings, yes.


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Old May 7th, 2014, 9:45 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Can all of you cut back on the emotive language? (e.g. "tortured", "terrorists" etc)?

And a reminder that "Who started it/who was worse - Snape or the Marauders?" is (a) a banned topic in LS and (b) not relevant to this thread. No-one's actually gone there yet, but you're getting perilously close. Move away, guys.
Right. So I won't discuss the "Snape was worse than James" topic.


About flirting, I believe even JKR said in one of her interviews it was just this: flirting. (Sorry I can't provide citations, but I have a life outside the HP fandom.) Even if you dont see it this way, Lily married precisely the person who cruelly bullied his so-called friend. I think I would have some difficulties to accept a person who tied up, hung upside-down and almost choked another person, especially someone who thought I was his friend. But I understand it is not a problem for a brave Gryffindor.

And of course, going by Lily's priorities, James was better than Snape: popular, rich, pureblood and Gryffindor. It's a biological priority: women want to marry a man who can give them a better social and material status. Pity that Snape didn't know anything about Darwin and stuff.


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  #84  
Old May 8th, 2014, 1:20 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
Right. So I won't discuss the "Snape was worse than James" topic.


About flirting, I believe even JKR said in one of her interviews it was just this: flirting. (Sorry I can't provide citations, but I have a life outside the HP fandom.) Even if you dont see it this way, Lily married precisely the person who cruelly bullied his so-called friend. I think I would have some difficulties to accept a person who tied up, hung upside-down and almost choked another person, especially someone who thought I was his friend. But I understand it is not a problem for a brave Gryffindor.

And of course, going by Lily's priorities, James was better than Snape: popular, rich, pureblood and Gryffindor. It's a biological priority: women want to marry a man who can give them a better social and material status. Pity that Snape didn't know anything about Darwin and stuff.
Snape and James hated one another and were always getting into it. (Both of them liking Lily and all) Is there evidence that James bullied other students in the same manner or to the same extent as Snape? (Seriously, I don't remember.) I see James as reckless, but I never saw evidence of him being general bully or inherently .

I think that there is a clear contrast between James and Lucius which is better for another thread.

Also, direct evidence suggests that Lily did not place particular importance on any of the things you mentioned, only indirect evidence and supposition?


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Old May 8th, 2014, 7:34 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
[b]About flirting, I believe even JKR said in one of her interviews it was just this: flirting. (Sorry I can't provide citations, but I have a life outside the HP fandom.) Even if you dont see it this way, Lily married precisely the person who cruelly bullied his so-called friend. I think I would have some difficulties to accept a person who tied up, hung upside-down and almost choked another person, especially someone who thought I was his friend. But I understand it is not a problem for a brave Gryffindor.
In the book, Lily told off James and walked away. Since James seemed to indicate that he was open to dating Lily, but Lily basically states she is disgusted by his behavior and doesn't want to associate with him, and then follows through by not associating with him, I came to the conclusion that Lily's priority was not being around people who engage in behavior that disgusts her. That went for Snape, too. If she did not want to start associating with one boy who wanted her attention but engaged in bad behavior, it makes sense to me her desire to cease associating with another boy who wants her attention but engages in bad behavior. It sounded to me like she had had enough, and planned to go do stuff with her life that she found important, like oppose Voldemort. I think she was willing to reevaluate later who she would associate with based on their later actions; that is, if they had changed for the better.

That scene did not come across as flirting to me, but even if Lily did harbor positive feelings for some of the perpetrators of bad behavior in that scene (like a secret crush on James or friendship with Snape), that wasn't going to get them off the hook for their behavior, and I applaud Lily for not shrugging off what they did.

Not sure what your dig against Gryffindor is about.

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And of course, going by Lily's priorities, James was better than Snape: popular, rich, pureblood and Gryffindor.
I don't remember Lily ever indicating that popularity was a priority of hers.

I don't remember Lily ever indicating that wealth was a priority of hers.

I don't remember Lily ever indicating that pureblood was a priority of hers.

I don't remember Lily ever indicating that Gryffindor was a priority of hers.

She hung around with the unpopular Severus Snape for years, and she had other friends whose popularity isn't elaborated on as well; I can't remember a thing in the books about her ever lamenting over lack of funds or showing gleefulness at having gallons of galleons; considering her thoughts on Death Eaters and their agenda I feel confident that she did not think purebloods to be superior; and she never once brings up House affiliation, ever.

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It's a biological priority: women want to marry a man who can give them a better social and material status. Pity that Snape didn't know anything about Darwin and stuff.
Snape was her friend, not her boyfriend. In fact, I see no evidence that Lily was looking for a husband of any sort from any candidate during the time she was friends with Snape. Snape's desire to use the friendship as a stepping stone for romance does not mean Lily felt the need or desire to do the same with Snape. She may have just valued the friendship. She may or may not have desired romance elsewhere with other boys--the book doesn't get into it. Personally I think friendship has value, so I don't need to turn it into a romance to get meaning out of it. Lily could have just liked Snape as a friend and that can have importance because friendship is important. I think Snape's desires for more could have been very awkward and uncomfortable for her, especially when the friendship was on such rocky ground-- I think it was very frustrating to Lily to have her concerns about Dark Magic and his dangerous friends brushed off, and extremely hurtful to have to deal with his rising bigotry.

I think Lily did state her priorities clearly in the books, about her need for the people she would associate with to at least be opposed to Voldemort and bigotry. Those I think were the minimum requirements to be close to her at the end of Fifth year.


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Old May 8th, 2014, 8:11 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
But James wasn't as bad as Snape when you consider where Snape's priorities laid at the time. It can be debated whether or not by the reader's standards James was as bad or worse than Snape. But going by LILY'S priorities, right before and right after SWM, clearly James had much more in common with her than Snape. Would she have given James the time of day immediately after SWM. Not for awhile after SWM, surely, where the loss of her friend would have hurt but eventually, without Snape to cause friction and assuming that James became much more in tune with her feelings, yes.
Lily is the one who said James was as bad as Snape (after Snape called her a Mudblood, no less), so whether James was as bad as Snape in my/yours/anyone else's opinion or not is beside the point, and given that Lily said such a thing (and all that she said and did after, in that scene), I really don't think she was considering going out with him at that particular point. She even said earlier that she'd rather go out with the giant squid than James, so I just don't think she was thinking of going out with him, then, (whether she had any kind of crush or found him attractive in some ways or not), since it seems some combination of his behavior was a deal breaker for her for going out/having a relationship with him. According to the text (by way of Sirius and Lupin), Lily didn't start dating James until 7th year, after he deflated his head some and stopped bullying, so I don't think she was thinking of going out with him until then.

And it wasn't Snape's fault that Lily didn't want to go out with James, since she didn't like his bullying of others and arrogant behavior in general. James had to do some reforming/deflate his head and stop bullying in general, before she wanted to go out with him, from what I can tell. Just as it wasn't James's fault that Lily dropped Snape, since it was Snape's own bad behavior that led to the breakup, from what I can tell.

Here's the two scenes from SWM for reference:

Quote:
“You think you’re funny,” she said coldly. “But you’re just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.”

“I will if you go out with me , Evans,” said James quickly. “Go on . . . Go out with me, and I’ll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.”

Behind him, the Impediment Jinx was wearing off. Snape was beginning to inch toward his fallen wand, spitting out soapsuds as he crawled.

“I wouldn’t go out with you if it was a choice between you and the giant squid,” said Lily.

Rowling, J.K. (2012-03-27). Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (Book 5) (p. 647). Pottermore Limited. Kindle Edition.

“There you go,” he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, “you’re lucky Evans was here, Snivellus —”

“I don’t need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!”

Lily blinked. “Fine,” she said coolly. “I won’t bother in future. And I’d wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus.”

“Apologize to Evans!” James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him.

“I don’t want you to make him apologize,” Lily shouted, rounding on James. “You’re as bad as he is . . .”

“What?” yelped James. “I’d NEVER call you a — you-know-what!”

“Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you’ve just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can — I’m surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.” She turned on her heel and hurried away.

“Evans!” James shouted after her, “Hey, EVANS!”

But she didn’t look back.

Rowling, J.K. (2012-03-27). Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (Book 5) (p. 648). Pottermore Limited. Kindle Edition.
It does not sound or seem at all, regardless of what things Lily and James do have in common, that she wants to go out with him at this time, IMO. It seems to me like Lily thought James and Snape were equally bad in their own different ways, at this point (which has nothing to do with what I or you or anyone else here thinks of James and Snape - and that subject of who is actually worse is off limits so we can't discuss it here anyway).

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
About flirting, I believe even JKR said in one of her interviews it was just this: flirting. (Sorry I can't provide citations, but I have a life outside the HP fandom.) Even if you dont see it this way, Lily married precisely the person who cruelly bullied his so-called friend. I think I would have some difficulties to accept a person who tied up, hung upside-down and almost choked another person, especially someone who thought I was his friend. But I understand it is not a problem for a brave Gryffindor.
Well, since it's no skin off my teeth to recall and access the bookmark of the quote...

Actually, what JKR said was this: "MA: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.
JKR: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]"
"The Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

JKR never has said it was flirting, and she doesn't here. All she is saying for sure is that Lily didn't hate James.

Now, I hate the way JKR is stereotyping all women, here, and assuming that all women would know what she means and would think the same (she doesn't always do this, esp. since she has talked about not understanding some of her women friends, sometimes, so she knows better than to think women always think the same, even though she seems to think they all would on this point). Women aren't some monolithic hive mind about anything, though. I'm a woman and I think differently than some other women I know and I know women that think differently than each other and myself, and I don't know what JKR is saying here, other than Lily didn't hate James.

Having said that, while I don't know for sure what JKR is saying, I think it's likely that she's making a point that one can be genuinely very cross with someone they don't hate and/or are attracted to in some way, and either a) Lily merely didn't hate James although she saw redeeming and even attractive qualities in him, although she wasn't attracted to him at that time because of his unacceptable behavior at that time or b) everything in "a" except that she was attracted to James at that time but didn't want to be because of his unacceptable behavior at that time. Lily doesn't come off as pining for James, so I don't think she was in love with him, at that point, so I don't think that's what JKR means.

Having said all that, even if JKR meant that Lily was in love with James or attracted to him or whatever, that doesn't mean that Lily was flirting with him during SWM. Nothing in that scene indicated that she was flirting and loads of people have genuine tiffs/fights with people they love and they aren't flirting while they do it. I'd say most aren't flirting when they do it. I can definitely say that if I'm telling someone off, even someone I love romantically, I'm certainly not flirting while I do it.

As for Lily later marrying James, she didn't even start to go out with him until 7th year (at least a whole year after SWM), after he had some significant reformation. Lily apparently was able to eventually forgive James for his previous behavior, and trust that he wouldn't be toxic for her, due to his reformation, and I don't think that makes her a bad person (nor do I think she was obligated to forgive). Maybe Lily would have been more inclined to hold a grudge on Snape's behalf, if they were still friends and (or at least) if he hadn't betrayed her by attacking her with a racial slur, and while she was trying to help him, no less.

If you would be unwilling to forgive James for his bulling of Snape, I totally understand, but giving second chances and forgiveness (when there's enough evidence to warrant a second chance) can be very good, so I understand that too. I'm a big fan of redemption, so I'm inclined to forgive those who reform and be glad for them to get a second chance, for most things, certainly in fiction. In real life, I find it best to forgive everyone, since I believe and have found that holding a grudge is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies, and it's just not worth it (better to forgive and move on, for my own sake). I'm more cautious with second chances, in real life, and there'd be some things I wouldn't personally take a risk on giving a second chance about, but I don't have a problem with someone else doing it and it working out. Yay for them and the truly reformed person, I say.

Also, JKR said that Lily certainly loved Snape as a friend, so it was certainly JKR's intent that Lily view Snape as a friend up until Snape laid down the final straw and she had to drop him for her own safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
And of course, going by Lily's priorities, James was better than Snape: popular, rich, pureblood and Gryffindor. It's a biological priority: women want to marry a man who can give them a better social and material status. Pity that Snape didn't know anything about Darwin and stuff.
Well, you know how I feel about this kind of stereotyping from what I've said above. Women don't all think alike, not every woman has the same drives, and furthermore, there is such a thing as free will (I certainly don't believe biology rules all in real life) and JKR has made a big point of the theme of free will and choice operating in the HP universe so I'm sure that there is some free will there. And I'm living proof that it's possible for a woman to not care about climbing the social ladder (I care about goodness and personality compatibility).

Furthermore, JKR has women in her books who buck against that stereotype clearly, like Andromeda Tonks (nee Black), who was pure-blood but married a Muggle-born and seemed totally happy with her choice, so I see no reason to assume that JKR is hewing to that "social climbing" stereotype. And since there is no indication in the text that James being rich, popular, pure-blood or Giffyindor had anything to do with Lily eventually falling in love with him, and since there is indication that she fell in love with him because he became a better person, I don't think it makes sense to paint Lily with that stereotype, IMO. And the same for Snape - there is no indication in the text that Lily had a problem with Snape being poor, half-blood, unpopular, or even Slytherin, and since she was shown to have a problem with him hanging around people who were doing what she thought crossed the line to evil (Mucliber and the others who were heading towards becoming DEs) and had a problem with him using racist language and heading towards DE land himself, I don't think it makes sense to paint Lily with that stereotype, IMO. Furthermore, JKR said that Lily "might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathsome people and acts." (J.K. Rowling and the Live Chat, Bloomsbury.com, July 30, 2007), so it had nothing to do with Snape being poor, unpopular, half-blood, or Slytherin, nor anything to do with some supposed (and supposedly unstoppable at that) biological drive, certainly not as far as JKR intended, from what I see.

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Is there evidence that James bullied other students in the same manner or to the same extent as Snape? (Seriously, I don't remember.) I see James as reckless, but I never saw evidence of him being general bully or inherently .
In the text (see above) Lily does say James was "walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can" which indicates general bullying, IMO. I think Snape got the worst of the bullying, but it sounds like James did bully others to some extent. And Lupin specifically said that Lily went out with James in the 7th year once James had "stopped hexing people just for the fun of it" (Sirius talked about the head deflating), so again, it seems to me that James did some bullying of people other than Snape, although the level of bullying for Snape specifically was described as "relentless bullying" on Pottermore, in Lupin's bio.


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Last edited by sailorlum; May 9th, 2014 at 9:58 am. Reason: fixed a typo
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Old May 8th, 2014, 10:17 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
About flirting, I believe even JKR said in one of her interviews it was just this: flirting. (Sorry I can't provide citations, but I have a life outside the HP fandom.) Even if you dont see it this way, Lily married precisely the person who cruelly bullied his so-called friend. I think I would have some difficulties to accept a person who tied up, hung upside-down and almost choked another person, especially someone who thought I was his friend.
Lily married the person she loved. Lily married a person who was on the same side of the war as her. Which I think was a basic requirement for Lily. Not everything, of course, but a basic requirement for anyone who wanted to be in her life, let alone in a romantic relationship with her.
Lily had trouble accepting a person who racially abused her. Lily had trouble accepting a person who saw no wrong in the murder and bigotry committed by the DEs.


Quote:
But I understand it is not a problem for a brave Gryffindor.
The hate crimes of the DEs were a problem for that brave Gryffindor.

Quote:
And of course, going by Lily's priorities, James was better than Snape: popular, rich, pureblood and Gryffindor. It's a biological priority: women want to marry a man who can give them a better social and material status. Pity that Snape didn't know anything about Darwin and stuff.
IMO, that is a radical generalisation about women.
Lily's priority when it came to people in her life was that they be on the same side of the war as she was. Lily could not feasibly have people in her life who were pro-Voldemort, pro-persecuting Muggleborns, pro-bigotry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
In the book, Lily told off James and walked away. Since James seemed to indicate that he was open to dating Lily, but Lily basically states she is disgusted by his behavior and doesn't want to associate with him, and then follows through by not associating with him, I came to the conclusion that Lily's priority was not being around people who engage in behavior that disgusts her.
I agree. I think Lily eventually realised that she needed people in her life whose values were similar to her own, people who she could agree with on core issues.


Quote:
I don't remember Lily ever indicating that popularity was a priority of hers.

I don't remember Lily ever indicating that wealth was a priority of hers.

I don't remember Lily ever indicating that pureblood was a priority of hers.

I don't remember Lily ever indicating that Gryffindor was a priority of hers.
Neither do I. The only priority I recall Lily indicating was her total, unequivocal opposition to the criminal organisation calling itself the Death Eaters and the prejudices they spouted.

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She hung around with the unpopular Severus Snape for years, and she had other friends whose popularity isn't elaborated on as well; I can't remember a thing in the books about her ever lamenting over lack of funds or showing gleefulness at having gallons of galleons; considering her thoughts on Death Eaters and their agenda I feel confident that she did not think purebloods to be superior; and she never once brings up House affiliation, ever.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure pureblood didn't matter to Lily. A Muggleborn for starters, and a Muggleborn who turned down Voldemort's offer to make an exception to allow her to join his criminal organisation, along with those who thought pure blood mattered.


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Snape was her friend, not her boyfriend. In fact, I see no evidence that Lily was looking for a husband of any sort from any candidate during the time she was friends with Snape.
As that friendship ended when she was sixteen, I'm also doubtful that she was husband-hunting.

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Snape's desire to use the friendship as a stepping stone for romance does not mean Lily felt the need or desire to do the same with Snape.
Totally agree. As she had every right to her own feelings.

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Personally I think friendship has value, so I don't need to turn it into a romance to get meaning out of it.
Agree. (Which is why I very strongly dislike the term "friendzone" as it implies that friendship doesn't matter, and isn't good enough.)

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I think Snape's desires for more could have been very awkward and uncomfortable for her, especially when the friendship was on such rocky ground-- I think it was very frustrating to Lily to have her concerns about Dark Magic and his dangerous friends brushed off, and extremely hurtful to have to deal with his rising bigotry.
I agree. It would have been awkward for Lily if she knew of Snape's feelings for her. And it's possible that she did - he wasn't that subtle about it, and she surely would have noticed.

I also agree that she would have been dealing with a lot of hurt, watching someone she considered a friend getting more and more involved with people who considered her scum. I think it was hard for her to deal with that, and I think she was clinging on for the sake of their childhood together. I think that the racist abuse hurled at her made her realise that she couldn't continue to make excuses for present problems for the sake of the past.

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I think Lily did state her priorities clearly in the books, about her need for the people she would associate with to at least be opposed to Voldemort and bigotry. Those I think were the minimum requirements to be close to her at the end of Fifth year.
Absolutely. A minimum requirement because their whole community was at war. People were living in fear of a group of criminals, and Lily did not want people who supported that in her life. Lily was firmly and completely on the anti-Voldemort side - there was no way she could want to be involved in any way with his supporters.

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
Maybe Lily would have been more inclined to hold a grudge on Snape's behalf, if they were still friends and (or at least) if he hadn't betrayed her by attacking her with a racial slur, and while she was trying to help him, no less.
Maybe. But as things were, I don't see why Lily should be expected to hold a grudge on behalf of a former friend who had betrayed her.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 9:16 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I agree. It would have been awkward for Lily if she knew of Snape's feelings for her. And it's possible that she did - he wasn't that subtle about it, and she surely would have noticed.
I personally don't think Lily knew about Snape's romantic feelings, although maybe she might have wondered at times if he had some romantic or attraction feelings for her, but I don't think it was anything she had a solid suspicion about or felt sure about. I think it's obvious to us as readers, but I'm not so sure how obvious it was to Lily, since she didn't notice things sometimes (like in the forest when Snape was looking at her greedily, Lily was oblivious to that because she was playing with a twig).

On that note, I think it's possible Lily felt some attraction to Snape, herself, although not to the point of falling in love (or she had the sense not to fall in love with him, with the friendship being in jeopardy for serious reasons and whatnot), since JKR said it was possible she could have fallen in love with him, and answered "yes" to her having feelings for him, although making it clear that she wasn't in love with him and the only thing certain is she loved him as a friend, so it's not a matter of there being no romantic chemistry or possible attraction. In the text I think there's evidence of possible attraction when Lily blushes at Snape's intense look, although I think there would also be some awkward feelings, too, with her not knowing for sure his feelings and their friendship being on rocky ground. But it's a mere possibility, I think (it could just be a blush of awkwardness).

As an aside, I go ahead and go with the theory that Lily did have some feelings of attraction to Snape, because I think that adds another interesting level to canon, and, I'll admit, also because I ship Lily/Severus (in a AU yadda yadda). But I do, regardless of my preferences, think it's possible, and it was that interview with JKR that got me thinking it possible in the first place, and led to my exploring the possibility and building a preference for shipping it (in a AU yadda yadda). Yes, you can blame that particular interview for my shipping Severus/Lily, because I wasn't even considering shipping it (mutually) before seeing that interview.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 3:09 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Lily married the person she loved. Lily married a person who was on the same side of the war as her. Which I think was a basic requirement for Lily.

Lily had trouble accepting a person who racially abused her. Lily had trouble accepting a person who saw no wrong in the murder and bigotry committed by the DEs.

I think Lily eventually realised that she needed people in her life whose values were similar to her own, people who she could agree with on core issues.

The only priority I recall Lily indicating was her total, unequivocal opposition to the criminal organisation calling itself the Death Eaters and the prejudices they spouted.
So she "had trouble accepting a person who abused her and saw no wrong in the murder", but had no trouble accepting a bully who tied up and humiliated a fellow student? The only wrong thing was being a DE, and everything else was OK? You know, the world is not divided into decent people and Death Eaters. Even on the right side of war there can be people with some dubious priorities and morals.

I understand Lily when she rejects Snape. I don't understand her when she accepts James.


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  #90  
Old May 9th, 2014, 3:36 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I personally don't think Lily knew about Snape's romantic feelings, although maybe she might have wondered at times if he had some romantic or attraction feelings for her, but I don't think it was anything she had a solid suspicion about or felt sure about. I think it's obvious to us as readers, but I'm not so sure how obvious it was to Lily, since she didn't notice things sometimes (like in the forest when Snape was looking at her greedily, Lily was oblivious to that because she was playing with a twig).

On that note, I think it's possible Lily felt some attraction to Snape, herself, although not to the point of falling in love (or she had the sense not to fall in love with him, with the friendship being in jeopardy for serious reasons and whatnot), since JKR said it was possible she could have fallen in love with him, and answered "yes" to her having feelings for him, although making it clear that she wasn't in love with him and the only thing certain is she loved him as a friend, so it's not a matter of there being no romantic chemistry or possible attraction. In the text I think there's evidence of possible attraction when Lily blushes at Snape's intense look, although I think there would also be some awkward feelings, too, with her not knowing for sure his feelings and their friendship being on rocky ground. But it's a mere possibility, I think (it could just be a blush of awkwardness).

As an aside, I go ahead and go with the theory that Lily did have some feelings of attraction to Snape, because I think that adds another interesting level to canon, and, I'll admit, also because I ship Lily/Severus (in a AU yadda yadda). But I do, regardless of my preferences, think it's possible, and it was that interview with JKR that got me thinking it possible in the first place, and led to my exploring the possibility and building a preference for shipping it (in a AU yadda yadda). Yes, you can blame that particular interview for my shipping Severus/Lily, because I wasn't even considering shipping it (mutually) before seeing that interview.
I think it is easier for people to have romantic feelings for someone when they are aware that the other person has fond feelings for them. It reduces the pressure of fighting to be noticed and it's nice to feel special. That's why alot of friendships evolve into something more. I think this is major reason why Snape fell for Lily in the first place and why it could have evolved more on Lily's part as well, eventually. I think something similar happened with James and Lily. James persued Lily for years. Certainly after SWM James could have given up on Lily but he never does even though, as a popular boy in school, he certainly wouldn't have been lacking for dates. I think that Lily would have picked up on this as she matured and it would have played a role in agreeing to date James. This plays into what JKR said about Lily not hating James. It's really hard to hate someone who not only likes you but actively seeks you out. Similarly she never would have hated Snape after SWM, in fact if she didn't care for him she wouldn't have been so sad, angry, and disapointed in him.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 4:32 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Similarly she never would have hated Snape after SWM, in fact if she didn't care for him she wouldn't have been so sad, angry, and disapointed in him.
Ooh, I don't know about that, Flims... When a trusted friend betrays her with a slur that heinous, I think she may well have ended up hating him. I know I would have - and have done on a couple of occasions, when people I thought of as friends betrayed me with a racial slur. And the slur wasn't even directed at me, but instead at someone like me.


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  #92  
Old May 9th, 2014, 7:18 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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So she "had trouble accepting a person who abused her and saw no wrong in the murder", but had no trouble accepting a bully who tied up and humiliated a fellow student? The only wrong thing was being a DE, and everything else was OK? You know, the world is not divided into decent people and Death Eaters. Even on the right side of war there can be people with some dubious priorities and morals.

I understand Lily when she rejects Snape. I don't understand her when she accepts James.
I agree with this. I think people often underestimate the seriousness of bullying. Many people in real life have been driven to suicide because of incessant bullying and others have been seriously traumatized. I'm not saying being a terrorist is better and I understand that she would not want to be with someone who dabbled in black magic. But I don't get why James's behavior was ok just because he didn't use the Dark Arts. I think the books do a good job of showing us that there are shades of grey, that it's not just DEs vs "good guys". I also question how much respect James actually had for her considering the fact that he went behind her back and continued to torment her friend (or former friend) while lying to her that he'd stopped.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 7:41 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Ooh, I don't know about that, Flims... When a trusted friend betrays her with a slur that heinous, I think she may well have ended up hating him. I know I would have - and have done on a couple of occasions, when people I thought of as friends betrayed me with a racial slur. And the slur wasn't even directed at me, but instead at someone like me.
I understand what you are saying. There are different kinds of hate. Lily harbored hate for DE and Voldemort on principle. Any hate she may or may not had for Snape came from a direct betrayal..which is different kind of hate born of lack or trust or repect.

Sailorum, as to James' general bullying, I'm not sure that Lily was being entirely objective as she was trying to help Snape at the time. I don't think that James would have risen to that level of popularity if he simply hexed people who annoyed him. I am sure that it did happen, on occasion, but to the extent that Lily claims is debatable...

I think everyone should remember that Lily only started seeing James in the middle of seventh year. Years after the bullying incident indicating that it took James a long time to gain her trust.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 8:07 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I understand what you are saying. There are different kinds of hate. Lily harbored hate for DE and Voldemort on principle. Any hate she may or may not had for Snape came from a direct betrayal..which is different kind of hate born of lack or trust or respect.
This is absolutely true.

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Originally Posted by Flims
Sailorum, as to James' general bullying, I'm not sure that Lily was being entirely objective as she was trying to help Snape at the time. I don't think that James would have risen to that level of popularity if he simply hexed people who annoyed him. I am sure that it did happen, on occasion, but to the extent that Lily claims is debatable...
Let's don't forget Lupin's comment that "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"

I'm willing to bet those two - James and Snape - went after each other all the time, possibly through their Seventh Year. I think Lupin's comments do imply that Snape was still jinxing James every chance he got, even after James and Lily began dating.

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Originally Posted by Flims
I think everyone should remember that Lily only started seeing James in the middle of seventh year. Years after the bullying incident indicating that it took James a long time to gain her trust.
It took a long time for Snape to lose her trust, too.

I don't know. It really strikes me as a situation where the two guys loathed each other and battled all the way through their years at Hogwarts. Part of it was Lily, but there was also a striking difference in their political ideologies.

Lily was an amazing young woman and James was blessed to have her IMO.


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  #95  
Old May 9th, 2014, 8:29 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Reply to flimseycauldron and purplehawk: I think it's possible Lily could have hated Snape after SWM, due to the severity of the betrayal, but I don't think she did, because the way she ends it at the portal comes off, to me, as her hating the choices Snape's making and where he's heading and recognizing that they are going down different paths and she can't go down that path with him where he's going, rather than hating Snape himself.

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
So she "had trouble accepting a person who abused her and saw no wrong in the murder", but had no trouble accepting a bully who tied up and humiliated a fellow student? The only wrong thing was being a DE, and everything else was OK? You know, the world is not divided into decent people and Death Eaters. Even on the right side of war there can be people with some dubious priorities and morals.

I understand Lily when she rejects Snape. I don't understand her when she accepts James.
The key with James is that he reformed enough for Lily before it was too late (before Lily fell in love with someone else or before they got in a position where even friendship would be impossible), I think. Certainly I see a difference between Lily forgiving and accepting a reformed bad boy (James after he deflated his head and stopped bullying), which she did, and Lily accepting an unreformed bad boy (James before he deflated his head and stopped bullying), which she didn't. And forgiveness doesn't mean the bad action was okay, only that it was forgiven. If the action wasn't bad, it wouldn't need to be forgiven, after all.

Also, everyone has their own lines in the sand and their own opinions on what is and isn't forgivable. If someone thought action A was even worse than action B, although thinking both bad, they might be willing to forgive action B, whereas they might not be willing to forgive action A. I don't think we can go into any more detail than that, without venturing into forbidden territory.

As an aside, I would say that Snape was willing to compromise his morals and accept murder and bigotry rather than having no problem with those things, but accepting those things is still very bad, in my book. (And a murder victim would be just as dead, whether the accomplice had no moral qualms or was compromising their morals. And a racist word or deed would still be a racist word or deed with all the consequences to the victims, regardless of whether the perpetrator was a true believer or not.) Bringing it back to Lily, I think Lily could have forgiven Snape for his intentions to become a DE, if he reformed and realized he needed to not compromise his morals in that way and stopped heading towards DE land.

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Sailorum, as to James' general bullying, I'm not sure that Lily was being entirely objective as she was trying to help Snape at the time. I don't think that James would have risen to that level of popularity if he simply hexed people who annoyed him. I am sure that it did happen, on occasion, but to the extent that Lily claims is debatable... .
It wasn't just Lily saying that though, it was Lupin, as well (to Harry), when he said James used to hex people just for the fun of it (pretty much the same as the "anyone who annoys you" comment, IMO, and either James hexed anyone who annoyed him or anyone he felt like just for the fun of it, or both). And Lily said the thing about James hexing anyone who annoyed him after Snape laid down the final straw and she was no longer trying to help him, so I don't think that was a factor in her saying it. Also, I think Lupin (and Snape) overstated James's (and Sirius's) popularity, a bit, since in OotP/SWM it states that "Students all around had turned to watch. Some of them had gotten to their feet and were edging nearer to watch. Some looked apprehensive, others entertained." when James and Sirius started in on Snape. It sounds to me like James was popular in terms of garnering interest with many students, but only popular in the sense of being liked by some of the students, while being feared by some others.


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Last edited by sailorlum; May 9th, 2014 at 8:43 pm. Reason: fixed typo, added clarity to the last paragraph
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Old May 9th, 2014, 8:57 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
So she "had trouble accepting a person who abused her and saw no wrong in the murder", but had no trouble accepting a bully who tied up and humiliated a fellow student? The only wrong thing was being a DE, and everything else was OK? You know, the world is not divided into decent people and Death Eaters. Even on the right side of war there can be people with some dubious priorities and morals.

I understand Lily when she rejects Snape. I don't understand her when she accepts James.

Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance. Lily gave James a second chance. Yes, the world isn't split into good people and DEs. But if a Death Eater, of all people, can be given a second chance, then why not a teenage bully?

(And maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't recall anything about Snape being tied up.)


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I think everyone should remember that Lily only started seeing James in the middle of seventh year. Years after the bullying incident indicating that it took James a long time to gain her trust.
Yes, it wasn't immediate. Lily started seeing James when he had grown up, "deflated his head a bit" and was treating others better.

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
It took a long time for Snape to lose her trust, too.
I agree. I think Lily held on for a long time, telling herself that things weren't that bad, that Snape hadn't yet gone too far along the path to bigotry and crime.

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
I think it's possible Lily could have hated Snape after SWM, due to the severity of the betrayal, but I don't think she did, because the way she ends it at the portal comes off, to me, as her hating the choices Snape's making and where he's heading and recognizing that they are going down different paths and she can't go down that path with him where he's going, rather than hating Snape himself.
I think that makes sense. I think she felt hurt, angry and betrayed moreso than hating Snape. I don't see Lily holding on to hatred of someone who had betrayed her and turned to hate crime. I see her more as accepting that he was no longer a person in her life and that to hold on to the anger would be damaging for her.


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And forgiveness doesn't mean the bad action was okay, only that it was forgiven. If the action wasn't bad, it wouldn't need to be forgiven, after all.
Yes, exactly. Forgiveness does not ever mean condoning something, or saying that the forgiver was wrong to have a problem with the hurtful behaviour in the first place. IMO, it's about letting go of the anger at that person. And what's more, forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean letting them back into your life, it just means letting go of the anger. (Example: you can forgive the person who cheated on you, without wanting to trust them with your heart again. You can forgive the person who stole from you without inviting them around for tea. You can forgive the person who hurt you without trusting them not do it again.) Forgiveness doesn't change the person who is forgiven, or make them any more trustworthy - the person forgiven must do that themselves, it's not up to the forgiver to change them.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 9:36 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Yes, it wasn't immediate. Lily started seeing James when he had grown up, "deflated his head a bit" and was treating others better.
Actually he wasn't treating others better. He just treated them badly behind her back.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 9:56 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance. Lily gave James a second chance. Yes, the world isn't split into good people and DEs. But if a Death Eater, of all people, can be given a second chance, then why not a teenage bully?

(And maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't recall anything about Snape being tied up.)
That's how I feel about it.

And I think UselessCharmMaster is referring to the Impediment Jinx (Impedimenta) being used on Snape, when they talk about Snape being tied up. I think it's more accurate to say that Snape was incapacitated, whereas "tied up" would seem to imply that Incarcerous was used, but I think Impedimenta is what they were referring to.

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I think that makes sense. I think she felt hurt, angry and betrayed moreso than hating Snape. I don't see Lily holding on to hatred of someone who had betrayed her and turned to hate crime. I see her more as accepting that he was no longer a person in her life and that to hold on to the anger would be damaging for her.
Yeah, that's how I see it. Lily said she detested Mulciber and Avery, though, so I think she did hate some people, but not in a way that would eat her up, like hating Snape would, IMO.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice
Yes, it wasn't immediate. Lily started seeing James when he had grown up, "deflated his head a bit" and was treating others better
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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Actually he wasn't treating others better. He just treated them badly behind her back.
It sounded to me like James stopped going after the nameless students he'd hexed just because they annoyed him and/or for the fun of it, and that qualifies as treating others better [in general], IMO, and it sounded to me like by the time that reformation had occured, it had become more of a fight with Snape, with Snape and James continuing a cycle of revenge, rather than James and Sirius ganging up on Snape together and bullying him. Granted, Lily wouldn't have liked James continuing that cycle of revenge with Snape, but she didn't know about that, so as far as her motivations are concerned, it's a moot point, IMO, (barring a "what if she knew/found out about it?" scenerio).


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Last edited by sailorlum; May 9th, 2014 at 10:08 pm. Reason: added a clarfiying clause to the end of the last paragraph
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Old May 9th, 2014, 10:19 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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That's how I feel about it.

And I think UselessCharmMaster is referring to the Impediment Jinx (Impedimenta) being used on Snape, when they talk about Snape being tied up. I think it's more accurate to say that Snape was incapacitated, whereas "tied up" would seem to imply that Incarcerous was used, but I think Impedimenta is what they were referring to.



Yeah, that's how I see it. Lily said she detested Mulciber and Avery, though, so I think she did hate some people, but not in a way that would eat her up, like hating Snape would, IMO.



It sounded to me like James stopped going after the nameless students he'd hexed just because they annoyed him and/or for the fun of it, and that qualifies as treating others better [in general], IMO, and it sounded to me like by the time that reformation had occured, it had become more of a fight with Snape, with Snape and James continuing a cycle of revenge, rather than James and Sirius ganging up on Snape together and bullying him. Granted, Lily wouldn't have liked James continuing that cycle of revenge with Snape, but she didn't know about that, so as far as her motivations are concerned, it's a moot point, IMO, (barring a "what if she knew/found out about it?" scenerio).
I had forgot about Lupin's version of Jame's hexing. I do feel that was more due to being a toerag than picking on people because of their blood status or taking it to the level that it went to with Snape. Schools often draw crowds around fights so I don't feel that is indicative of much. *shrug*

I do want to agree whole heartedly with what I quoted above. Lily can't be held accountable for what she didn't know. Maybe James didn't deserve Lily (and that is HIGHLY debatable) but that shows more to the character of Lily, that James might not deserve her, than her having poor judgement in choosing to go out with him. ETA: In that "What if Lily had known?" scenario...it would have depended on many different factors. She wouldn't have been shocked, I don't think, and as she held James accountable during SWM she would have held Snape equally accountable later. Also, Snape was no longer her friend. She wouldn't have endorsed fighting on principle, but the personal aspect wouldn't be there anymore, how did James treat her outside his rivalry with Snape, and how far had Snape fallen into the Dark art by then. I think Lily would have tried to have been objective.


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Old May 9th, 2014, 10:43 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
And I think UselessCharmMaster is referring to the Impediment Jinx (Impedimenta) being used on Snape, when they talk about Snape being tied up. I think it's more accurate to say that Snape was incapacitated, whereas "tied up" would seem to imply that Incarcerous was used, but I think Impedimenta is what they were referring to.
I see. Impedimenta, which is a brief jinx, as I seem to recall from when the trio practised it prior to the third task. Slows someone down or incapacitates them for a few seconds. I don't see how that could be synonymous with tying someone up.


Quote:
Yeah, that's how I see it. Lily said she detested Mulciber and Avery, though, so I think she did hate some people, but not in a way that would eat her up, like hating Snape would, IMO.
Yeah, which fits with flimseycauldron's idea of the different kinds of hatred Lily might have had for Snape versus hatred for other DEs/Voldemort. Her hatred of the other DEs would have been based on the evil they were committing, and would have been one shared by most non-DE members of the community. If she had hated Snape, it would have been personal and hurtful and would have prevented her from moving on with her life.


Quote:
It sounded to me like James stopped going after the nameless students he'd hexed just because they annoyed him and/or for the fun of it, and that qualifies as treating others better [in general], IMO, and it sounded to me like by the time that reformation had occured, it had become more of a fight with Snape, with Snape and James continuing a cycle of revenge, rather than James and Sirius ganging up on Snape together and bullying him.
That's the impression I got, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I do want to agree whole heartedly with what I quoted above. Lily can't be held accountable for what she didn't know.
I agree.

Quote:
Maybe James didn't deserve Lily (and that is HIGHLY debatable) but that shows more to the character of Lily, that James might not deserve her, than her having poor judgement in choosing to go out with him.
I fail to see how "deserving" Lily comes into it, as she was not a prize to be won. She was a person, with agency and with feelings of her own, and she chose who she would be with, based on her feelings and values, not on who she thought was more "deserving" of a Lily-trophy.


Quote:
ETA: In that "What if Lily had known?" scenario...it would have depended on many different factors. She wouldn't have been shocked, I don't think, and as she held James accountable during SWM she would have held Snape equally accountable later. Also, Snape was no longer her friend. She wouldn't have endorsed fighting on principle, but the personal aspect wouldn't be there anymore, how did James treat her outside his rivalry with Snape, and how far had Snape fallen into the Dark art by then. I think Lily would have tried to have been objective.
I think if she had known, I think she would have known that it was going both ways and that neither of them was blameless.


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