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Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3



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  #41  
Old January 31st, 2014, 4:56 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
But Lily was different. She seems to have hidden her friendship with Severus - Remus and Sirius didn't know about it.
I do not see anywhere where Lily is secretive about her friendship with Snape. They were walking openly together across the schoolgrounds in 5th year, and they hung out together on the train in 1st year. I see no reason given in the books for her to have this secret or any statement in the books that she was keeping it secret.

Sirius definitely would know they were friends, since he was on the train with them 1st year. I don't see why Lupin wouldn't know, either. At any event, Snape and Lily were not friends after 5th year, so there was no ongoing friendship.

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At one point, she even said to Severus "my friends don't understand why I talk to you." To me, this suggests she cared very much about popular opinion and what her Gryffindor friends thought.
"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends--" etc.

That's what Lily said. So her friends' opinions about Snape seem to be in relationship to him calling people Mudblood and hanging with the Death Eater crowd. She also calls them "friends", not "Gryffindor friends", so I would say it is about friends vs Death Eaters not Gryffindors vs Snape. She never confines "friend" to House affiliation, so I assume she is talking about friends not mere Housemates. Gryffindors are not the only ones seen objecting to Death Eaters in the series.

I see it as a parallel to Lily as Snape's friend objecting to Mulciber and Avery and what they get up to. She can't see what Snape sees in them and tries to warn him that they are bad news. As I see it, Lily's friends have been trying to do the same for her with regards to Snape. Just like Snape makes excuses for Mulciber and Avery, Lily has been making excuses for Snape and what he gets up to. Now she has seen the light and realizes that she has been making excuses and there are things that should not be ignored.


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  #42  
Old January 31st, 2014, 8:30 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I see it as a parallel to Lily as Snape's friend objecting to Mulciber and Avery and what they get up to. She can't see what Snape sees in them and tries to warn him that they are bad news. As I see it, Lily's friends have been trying to do the same for her with regards to Snape. Just like Snape makes excuses for Mulciber and Avery, Lily has been making excuses for Snape and what he gets up to. Now she has seen the light and realizes that she has been making excuses and there are things that should not be ignored.
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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Actually, I read that quotation totally differently - to me it suggests that she is NOT that influenced by popular opinion. She has continued to be friends with Snape for years, despite the fact that her Gryffindor friends think this is odd. And let us remember that when she finally does break off her friendship with Snape it is because of his behaviour to her, not to please her Gryffindor friends.
Thinking about it, I believe you're right. Lily most likely had a very good heart and was very understanding of people who were "different." She was also probably very forgiving, and Harry got that quality from her, esp. shown when he named his second son Albus Severus.


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  #43  
Old January 31st, 2014, 10:12 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

I've always admired Lily for her strength of character. For her strength in standing up for her principles, for standing up to Voldemort, and for walking away from a relationship that was no longer good for her, with someone she could no longer trust.


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I think Lily chose James because of common values and similar personalities. I can't see her as having even considered someone who wasn't in the Order.
I don't think "being in the Order" was a basic requirement for Lily. I think "being against Voldemort" was the basic requirement. Not everything, but a basic requirement. Not meeting this basic requirement was a deal-breaker for Lily's choices about people in her life, as a Muggleborn and someone opposed to torture and murder.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I see it as a parallel to Lily as Snape's friend objecting to Mulciber and Avery and what they get up to. She can't see what Snape sees in them and tries to warn him that they are bad news. As I see it, Lily's friends have been trying to do the same for her with regards to Snape. Just like Snape makes excuses for Mulciber and Avery, Lily has been making excuses for Snape and what he gets up to. Now she has seen the light and realizes that she has been making excuses and there are things that should not be ignored.
I agree. Lily grew up, and saw her mistake. She refused to become one of those women who makes excuses for men who hurt her. She refused to become an enabler or to turn a blind eye to things she cannot condone. Things that I have always admired her for, and for which I consider her a strong positive role model.


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  #44  
Old January 31st, 2014, 11:09 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I've always admired Lily for her strength of character. For her strength in standing up for her principles, for standing up to Voldemort, and for walking away from a relationship that was no longer good for her, with someone she could no longer trust.




I don't think "being in the Order" was a basic requirement for Lily. I think "being against Voldemort" was the basic requirement. Not everything, but a basic requirement. Not meeting this basic requirement was a deal-breaker for Lily's choices about people in her life, as a Muggleborn and someone opposed to torture and murder.



I agree. Lily grew up, and saw her mistake. She refused to become one of those women who makes excuses for men who hurt her. She refused to become an enabler or to turn a blind eye to things she cannot condone. Things that I have always admired her for, and for which I consider her a strong positive role model.
I agree with you totally, here.

I don't think Lily was ever perfect (because no one is) but she was full of awesome and win and ultimately one of the best role models in the book, IMO.

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ETA: Welp, it's time for me to get off the boards for now. If they shut down before I come back, farewell, and I've set up a Lily thread at Arry's Hogsmeade HP forums, if you'd like some more Lily discussion. Blessings and well wishes to all.

ETA 2: Since CoS lives, I'll be debating here and there.


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Last edited by sailorlum; February 4th, 2014 at 11:36 pm. Reason: added ETA, added ETA 2
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  #45  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 1:20 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

I also don't think Lily honestly hated James. I think she thought that he was an arrogant toerag (which he was) but she was still amused by him.


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  #46  
Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:51 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Let's not forget that a major source of contention between Snape and James was the fact that Snape was practicing the Dark Arts. We don't know how much James knew about Snape's affairs but he knew it was enough to make Snape very dangerous. And Snape was friends with Lily Potter.

Whatever happened personally between James and Snape there was never any hint that James followed the path of the Dark Arts. In fact he was very much against it. When it came down to saving Snape from Lupin James did the right thing and saved him. James was shown as irresponsible and reckless, but never was he shown to have disdain for a certain group of people, nor was he ever shown to practice dark magic.

I think Lily was able to discern the difference. Snape was following a very dark path. One bad choice inevitably led to the next, much worse, outcome. Whereas James was foolish and foolhardy but he was also loyal and loving and seemed to mature enough to involve himself in the Order.


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Old April 23rd, 2014, 7:30 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I also don't think Lily honestly hated James. I think she thought that he was an arrogant toerag (which he was) but she was still amused by him.

I agree that she didn't hate James, but I also don't think she was amused by him - at least not by his nastier behaviour. I think she may have been amused by some of his harmless pranks, but not by the bullying.

I think Lily saw a side to James that she liked - he befriended Peter, a boy who would otherwise have been quite lonely. If she knew or suspected anything about Lupin's condition, I think she would have admired him for standing by his friend, despite the prevailing bigotry against werewolves. I think she would have appreciated and respected his stance against Death Eaters and their bigotry against Muggleborns.

Flimseycauldron, I think that dark arts and Death Eating were a big concern for Lily, as a Muggleborn and as an opponent of Death Eater crimes. I think Lily would have wanted people in her life who were just as opposed to the evil of Voldemort and the DEs as she was. I don't think it was everything, but I think that it was a baseline requirement for people in her life. An opposition to Voldemort was the most important thing - for Lily, absolutely nothing else would compensate for the absence of an opposition to Voldemort.


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  #48  
Old April 24th, 2014, 11:19 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Thinking about it, I believe you're right. Lily most likely had a very good heart and was very understanding of people who were "different." She was also probably very forgiving.
Pity we don't have any good example of it shown in the books...


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Old April 24th, 2014, 1:32 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Pity we don't have any good example of it shown in the books...
There is a difference between being kind and being a doormat. Lily had the self-respect to draw the line at racial abuse. Good for her, IMO. It does not mean she was not kind or forgiving. It meant that there was a line, and that line was crossed. A woman who walks away from a man who disrespects her and racially abuses her is a strong woman, IMO. That does not mean she is unkind or unforgiving. It means she is strong, it means she is principled. It means she expects the people in her life to respect her, to not mistreat her. As anyone should expect from the people in their life, IMO.

Lily stood by people who were different - but why should that extend to standing by those for whom different means prejudiced, DE hopeful? Standing by those who are different does not, and should not, mean standing by and making excuses for prejudice and criminality. It's not a blanket guarantee that someone can do whatever they want, no matter how wrong, and be accepted and not criticised for their misdeeds.


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  #50  
Old April 25th, 2014, 1:30 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Pity we don't have any good example of it shown in the books...
I agree with what FurryDice said here and here (with a caveat about Peter, more on that later), and would like to add on the subject of Lily being forgiving, that Lily did apparently forgive Snape for insulting Petunia over being Muggle when they first met (since she made friends with him after that) and for dropping the tree branch on Petunia (since Lily remained friends with him after that). I figure Snape must have been willing to apologize regarding Petunia in both instances, and promise change (of which there is evidence of him following through regarding insulting Petunia over being a Muggle, seeing as he stopped himself from saying Petunia was only a Muggle, on the first train to Hogwarst) and in the case of the tree branch Snape must have also explained well enough that it was accidental. Furthermore, Lily was forgiving of Snape being friends with people like Mucliber and Avery, in the first place, who were doing Dark Magic and who were pure-blood supremacist DE wannabees (while hoping to convince Snape to drop them as bad news, as evidenced by her strictures on them during the memory in TPT) since Lily remained friends with Snape (while trying to convince him to see the light) even after Snape made friends with and did not drop the Dark Magic using, pure-blood supremacist, DE wannabees, until Snape laid down the straw that broke the camel's back and hurled a racial slur at her, and then only apologized for using that slur with her (not in general, as he needed to also do) and also refused to change or even promise change. For whatever reasons, Snape stood there like a dog with two bones, not offering to give up the bad stuff he was doing and dangerous people he was hanging round with, for Lily. Snape just wasn't at all safe to forgive, at this point, and Lily had been very forgiving up to this point, IMO.

Now, I think if Snape had apologized for all he needed to and promised change in the areas that needed changing because they were making him too toxic and unsafe for Lily to be around, then Lily would have given him another chance, since she was pretty darn forgiving of Snape in the first place, IMO (although trust would be a long hard road to rebuild, after that, and I'm not sure if she could ever trust him enough to fall in love with him, after that...it might be possible, but it would be more of a challenge and require even more angst than I'd want to deal with as a writer, hence SWM is my shipping point of no return).

However, for Lily to forgive and remain friends with Snape after he hurled racial abuse directly at her and refused to apologize for using that word in general and refused to change his Dark DE path, I think it would have been highly dangerous, and doormat-like, at that point. Really, she'd be taking a big risk to forgive him and give him another chance, even if he did apologize for all he needed to and promise to change all that needed to change, since she wouldn't know for sure if he was going to follow through on that, and if he didn't, she could wind up hurt again and hurt more, and if it went on long enough and she kept on forgiving after trust being broken, it could get her seriously messed up or even killed (seeing as Snape was hanging out with a very dangerous crowd and heading towards being a member of a very dangerous criminal gang). I'm sure Lily suffered a fair amount of psychological trauma just from what happened in canon, let alone if she'd let it go on longer with Snape refusing to change his path. Frankly, I wouldn't blame Lily if she refused to give Snape another chance even if he apologized for all he needed to and promised to change his path, because that would have been risky enough, and dealing with Snape must have been taking an emotional toll and a person can only withstand so much of that, and if she just felt like she'd had enough and wanted/needed to move on, she has a right to those feelings and to choose whoever she wants to hang round/be friends with or not. Although, like I said, I figure she would have forgiven him and given him another chance if he'd apologized for all he needed to and promised to change all he needed to, since she demonstrated a very forgiving nature and since she seems to have been pretty hardy when it came to dealing with the angst (although she has her limits, as is best for everyone, IMO, lest it crossover to doormat territory).

Ah, if only Snape had listened to Lily regarding Mulciber and crew before SWM, and started making better choices and going down a better path, they could have even had that relationship upgrade (certainly it would have been possible at some point, if Snape had dialed down the bad choice making, according to JKR). At the very least, Lily wouldn't have had to lose her best friend. Even if James/Lily was my OTP, I'd still want Lily to be spared having to lose her best friend (I'd still want Snape to head down redemption road before it was too late, and I'd rather have Snape learn to move on romantically if I were shipping James/Lily as my OTP, and for James and Snape come to a truce, at least).

And even as an AU-before-SWM redemption!Severus/Lily OTP shipper, I prefer that to happen in a parallel universe, because otherwise there'd be no Harry Potter (and I support James/Lily in canon and like James well enough since he had redeeming qualities and positive character growth before it was too late for Lily to fall in love with him in canon), and I want to have my cake and eat it too. AU!redemption!Severus/Lily is my OTP because I find Snape more interesting than James (Snape is my favorite character in the books), and Lily is my second favorite character in the books, (I like shipping my favorites together), and the "relationship upgrade between longtime best friends" trope is one of my all time favorite romantic tropes, and (most importantly) I'm of the opinion that Lily would be equally happy (barring outside forces giving her tragedy) with whoever she fell in love with (although it would be different, but equally good, IMO), provided they weren't too toxic for her and/or had enough positive character growth if needed, before it was too late, and I think Snape would be happy with Lily (provided he didn't wreck it with bad choices and barring outside forces giving him tragedy), but I multi-ship, too. I think if Snape had changed before it was too late, and Lily fell in love with him, and James remained how he was in canon, then James would have been the one changing too late, and Lily would have been happy with her relationship upgrade with reformed Snape. As it happened, Snape was too late changing (and never made it up being someone who could have a healthy relationship, in canon, anyway, IMO), and James changed and Lily fell in love with him and was happy with her relationship with reformed James. And in that case: Ah, if only Snape had done his Heel Face Turn before giving Voldemort that darn prophecy, and if only Peter didn't betray (or if only Lily and James had chosen themselves or Dumbledore or Sirius as Secret Keeper or something)! But then we wouldn't have gotten the HP series as we have it (and i wouldn't be a fan if it weren't so interesting), so I'd need a parallel AU for any change I'd make to canon (because I want to have all the cake and eat it too!)

Regarding that caveat about Peter...

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think Lily saw a side to James that she liked - he befriended Peter, a boy who would otherwise have been quite lonely. If she knew or suspected anything about Lupin's condition, I think she would have admired him for standing by his friend, despite the prevailing bigotry against werewolves. I think she would have appreciated and respected his stance against Death Eaters and their bigotry against Muggleborns.
I think if Peter had been nicer before making friends with James and crew than he was during the time of SWM (which he could have been, I'm just not sure one way or the other), then Lily would see James making friends with him as a thing she liked, provided James wasn't a bad influence on Peter, which unfortunately James and Sirius seemed to be, given Peter's cheerleading (and possible participation in) their bullying. Likewise, I don't think she thought they were a good influence on Remus, who didn't stand up to them. I think Lily would have seen the good in James not being prejudiced against Remus for him being a werewolf, though, (provided she knew or suspected Lupin's condition, and I think she did suspect it but didn't want to think it true until it was confirmed since it would be a horrible thing for Lupin to have to deal with) and I think Lily would have seen the good in James being able to be convinced by Remus to give Peter a chance (if Peter were nicer than he was in SWM), but she wouldn't have liked James and Sirius being a bad influence on Peter and Lupin, provided she thought Peter and Lupin were being influenced rather than just being fine with the bullying to begin with. I figure that Lily probably overheard Lupin saying whatever it was that he said that made the others feel guilty for their bullying of Snape, at some points, and Lupin was so nice/mild mannered most of the time, IMO, that I think Lily would think the others were a bad influence on him. (And it was Remus who convinced James and Sirius to give Peter a chance, so Remus was a good influence on them, in that regard...although it unfortunately backfired on everyone due to Peter caving in to cowardice and his willingness to go with whoever seemed to have the most power, and Peter was so impressionable that he was only as good as those leading him who had that power.)


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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking.
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  #51  
Old April 25th, 2014, 2:59 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

I only meant I would like some more details about Lily. It's my general complaint about the books. Instead of saying us "Lily was great" she could show us something as a proof. In the movies they added Lupin's speech in PoA and Slughorn's little story in HBP. Pity that JKR didn't think of something like this.


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Old April 25th, 2014, 4:47 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
and would like to add on the subject of Lily being forgiving, that Lily did apparently forgive Snape for insulting Petunia over being Muggle when they first met (since she made friends with him after that) and for dropping the tree branch on Petunia (since Lily remained friends with him after that).
Good point. Lily did give second chances. She also gave numerous chances when the friend of a Muggleborn was getting involved with people who saw her and other Muggleborns as subhuman.

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Furthermore, Lily was forgiving of Snape being friends with people like Mucliber and Avery, in the first place, who were doing Dark Magic and who were pure-blood supremacist DE wannabees (while hoping to convince Snape to drop them as bad news, as evidenced by her strictures on them during the memory in TPT) since Lily remained friends with Snape (while trying to convince him to see the light) even after Snape made friends with and did not drop the Dark Magic using, pure-blood supremacist, DE wannabees,
Personally, I think this was a mistake on Lily's part. She remained friends with someone who was friends with racist wannabe terrorists. She tried to convince herself that he was different. It wasn't until he racially abused her that she recognised the extent of the problem. IMO, lying to herself about what her friend was becoming was a mistake.

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However, for Lily to forgive and remain friends with Snape after he hurled racial abuse directly at her and refused to apologize for using that word in general and refused to change his Dark DE path, I think it would have been highly dangerous, and doormat-like, at that point.
I agree. IMO, it would have only led to further disrespect and racial abuse. IMO, it would have led to an expectation that she be supportive of the criminal path and the murder and torture of other Muggleborns. IMO, it would have eventually led to an expectation that she be grateful for her protected status as the exception. Lily finally stood and said no to all of this, after her attempts to reason fell on wilfully deaf ears.

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Although, like I said, I figure she would have forgiven him and given him another chance if he'd apologized for all he needed to and promised to change all he needed to, since she demonstrated a very forgiving nature and since she seems to have been pretty hardy when it came to dealing with the angst (although she has her limits, as is best for everyone, IMO, lest it crossover to doormat territory).
Perhaps, if he has shown that there was more than lip-service to his apology like dropping the racist thug friends completely, like swearing to never call anyone a "mudblood" again. An apology on its own is meaningless unless there is a change in the harmful behaviour.

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Ah, if only Snape had listened to Lily regarding Mulciber and crew before SWM, and started making better choices and going down a better path, they could have even had that relationship upgrade
"Upgrade" seems to imply that friendship isn't good enough.


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I'm of the opinion that Lily would be equally happy (barring outside forces giving her tragedy) with whoever she fell in love with
I don't know. I think Lily needed someone who didn't need her as an emotional crutch, a comfort blanket. I think Lily needed someone who could be an emotional support to her, just as much as she was to them. I think Lily needed a more balanced relationship. I don't think Lily would have been happy being someone's only reason for not doing ill. That's too much pressure to put on one person.


Quote:
I think if Peter had been nicer before making friends with James and crew than he was during the time of SWM (which he could have been, I'm just not sure one way or the other), then Lily would see James making friends with him as a thing she liked, provided James wasn't a bad influence on Peter, which unfortunately James and Sirius seemed to be, given Peter's cheerleading (and possible participation in) their bullying.
We don't know what Peter was like, before befriending James and Sirius, I agree. However, McGonagall considered him as the kid who was tagging along with James and Sirius. IMO, he was the kid who would have been quite lonely without James and Sirius. I think Lily would have seen the good in James and Sirius including Peter. And, as I said before, Lily would have seen other sides to James apart from the bullying behaviour.


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Likewise, I don't think she thought they were a good influence on Remus, who didn't stand up to them. I think Lily would have seen the good in James not being prejudiced against Remus for him being a werewolf, though, (provided she knew or suspected Lupin's condition, and I think she did suspect it but didn't want to think it true until it was confirmed since it would be a horrible thing for Lupin to have to deal with) and I think Lily would have seen the good in James being able to be convinced by Remus to give Peter a chance (if Peter were nicer than he was in SWM), but she wouldn't have liked James and Sirius being a bad influence on Peter and Lupin, provided she thought Peter and Lupin were being influenced rather than just being fine with the bullying to begin with.
I think she would have had a problem with James and Sirius being a bad influence, but I think Lily would also have been able to see shades of grey. I think she would have recognised what a big thing it was for these two pureblood kids, raised with the anti-werewolf prejudice, to support and care for their werewolf friend. Having attended Hogwarts during Voldemort's rise to power, having been the target of racial slurs herself, I think Lily would have appreciated just how significant it was to see these two befriending a werewolf. What's more, I think she would have seen just how significant it was to hear and see them standing up against racial slurs like "mudblood". At a time when DEs were actively killing, they were standing up and saying "no" even as teenagers.


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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
I only meant I would like some more details about Lily. It's my general complaint about the books. Instead of saying us "Lily was great" she could show us something as a proof. In the movies they added Lupin's speech in PoA and Slughorn's little story in HBP. Pity that JKR didn't think of something like this.
JKR showed us a Lily who stood up to bullies. She showed us a Lily who stood up to the popular students to defend someone she considered a friend. It also showed a Lily who stood up to dangerous criminals, as a member of the Order, and as someone who "thrice defied" Voldemort. A woman with principles, who stood up for right, who defended those who should be defended.

JKR also showed us a Lily who cared for others. She cared for the person she considered a friend, and tried to advise him against making terrible, even criminal choices in life.

JKR showed us a caring young woman, who befriended Lupin, whether before or after she grew close to James. Lily surely knew or at least suspected his secret before that. She surely noticed his regular absences, and how pale and unwell he looked around the full moon, along with Snape's assertions. Lily became friends with Lupin, and his condition did not matter to her. She was able to see the person, and not the illness.

JKR showed us a loving woman, who grieved for her friends, the McKinnons, murdered by Death Eaters. She showed us a young woman who chose to fight for what was right, not turn a blind eye.

What JKR did not do was show us a Lily who was willing to condone bullying, racial abuse, Death Eater terrorism, no matter who was committing these acts.


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  #53  
Old April 25th, 2014, 4:48 pm
sailorlum  Female.gif sailorlum is offline
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
I only meant I would like some more details about Lily. It's my general complaint about the books. Instead of saying us "Lily was great" she could show us something as a proof. In the movies they added Lupin's speech in PoA and Slughorn's little story in HBP. Pity that JKR didn't think of something like this.
Ah, well, I would have like to see more details of Lily, too, but I felt like I got the gist of her having a good heart and being forgiving and whatnot from the books. I gave forgiving examples, above (and I'd add her forgiving James for his earlier behavior when he changed for the better, to the list of that). And I think that shows her good heart, along with not judging Snape for his clothes or where he lived in the neighborhood, showing concern about his home life, being protective of Petunia when she was being insulted for being Muggle or had the tree branch dropped on her, coming to Snape's defense in SWM (until he hurled a slur at her for her trouble), stopping herself from smiling/laughing at whatever it was about the Levicorpus that almost had her doing that (I'm thinking it was Snape being hoist by his own petard, or almost having a nervous laugh at seeing her best friend in his underwear and it's sad condition), resisting the gossip Snape was trying to start about Lupin's illness, the good stuff Slughorn had to say about her in the books (she sounded fun to be around, IMO), the good stuff Hagrid had to say about her and James in the books (being some of the best people he's known, IIRC), the good stuff Sirius and Lupin had to say about Lily in the books (she didn't date James till he deflated his head some and he stopped bullying people and she wouldn't have liked him continuing what became a fight with Snape), joining the Order and defying Voldemort, and not being willing to stand aside when Voldemort came to kill Harry. I don't think Lily was perfect or a saint (she had her flaws), but she seemed to be a pretty great person from what I saw. Would have been nice to get to see even more of that, like the Lupin speech in PoA and Slughorn's story about the fish in HBP, IA, but I felt like I got enough to go on, myself. JKR does have a habit of "tell rather than show" sometimes, and I prefer the "show" and more examples are nice, but oh well, nothing's perfect, IMO.

ETA: FurryDice, I just saw your post before I posted this, I'm working on reading and replying, will add it when done

ETA 2: Here are those replies.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Personally, I think this was a mistake on Lily's part. She remained friends with someone who was friends with racist wannabe terrorists. She tried to convince herself that he was different. It wasn't until he racially abused her that she recognised the extent of the problem. IMO, lying to herself about what her friend was becoming was a mistake.
Well, I was only thinking of giving examples of her being forgiving at that point in the post, and not commenting on whether it was always good to be so forgiving, which I didn't comment on until later. I missed going back and dealing with that on this issue, oops!

Anyway, IA that Lily was making a mistake in being in some denial about how bad the situation had gotten with Snape. I think it would have been better if she had leveled an ultimatum about Snape being friends with racist wannabe terrorists, sooner, much sooner. I actually think one of Lily's flaws is that she "woobied" Snape, a bit.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I agree. IMO, it would have only led to further disrespect and racial abuse. IMO, it would have led to an expectation that she be supportive of the criminal path and the murder and torture of other Muggleborns. IMO, it would have eventually led to an expectation that she be grateful for her protected status as the exception. Lily finally stood and said no to all of this, after her attempts to reason fell on wilfully deaf ears.
Yeah, in canon, Snape wasn't willing to change until Voldemort directly targeted Lily for death, so I'm inclined to think it would have gotten worse if Lily hadn't set proper boundaries by requiring that her friend not head down that path, or getting out of the relationship if friend not willing to do the right thing.

And in fic, Snape would need to take some earlier crossroad (before SWM, IMO) and start making better choices or Lily would need to level some ultimatum in that AU with Snape finally getting his priorities straight and choosing Lily and letting that be the start of making better choices. (More on that later).

Someone could take it AU and have Snape decide to start making better choices somehow after Lily forgave him anyway, or even have him finally listen to Lily, but I think it would need to be paired with some other life lesson getting him to see that Lily is right, or Lily would need to issue an ultimatum at some point and he'd have to choose her, or something, and I think that would all be very unlikely once Lily set a precedent of forgiving him for attacking her directly with a racial slur without requiring change in all that needed changing, and there'd be an unfortunate implication of that storyline playing into the idea that Lily needs to be martyr for Snape, that is floating around out there in some parts of fandom. I think a big lampshade would need to be hung on how lucky Lily got that it worked out in the end, if she tried that. Even having Snape reform earlier before SWM, could carry that implication if one doesn't hang a lampshade on how Lily lucked out that Snape finally listened and got it in gear or just got it in gear for whatever reason the writer comes up with, IMO. Even that's not going to happen unless one takes it AU, because it didn't happen in canon, but even in a AU, it's more believable to have it happen and work out in the end, if it happens before SWM and if it happens because Snape promises to change and follows through on that promise because Lily requires it, rather than her forgiving anyway and hoping he somehow comes around in spite of her lack of requirement, IMO.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Perhaps, if he has shown that there was more than lip-service to his apology like dropping the racist thug friends completely, like swearing to never call anyone a "mudblood" again. An apology on its own is meaningless unless there is a change in the harmful behaviour.
Well, yeah, the second chance wouldn't last long if he didn't follow through on it. He'd need to follow through on it for the gamble of her giving him another chance to pay off.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
"Upgrade" seems to imply that friendship isn't good enough.
Hm, well, yeah, I suppose that can be an unfortunate implication of that trope name (implying that friendship is not good enough in general), making it a bit problematic.

I think whether friendship is good enough, in a particular relationship, is up to the two people involved, although I think enough love would prompt someone to rather have friendship rather than nothing. (And I think Snape would rather be friends than nothing, although he'd need character growth to move on from pining and being bitter about whoever Lily fell in love with, if she didn't fall in love with him. But if one is taking it AU, and not shipping Lily/Snape, then one could take his character growth in that direction, along with the direction of making better choices in general, like getting off the bad path and onto a good one. And I think if Lily had a crush on Snape, she'd rather have friendship rather than nothing, although I think she'd have an easier time getting over the disappointment, considering that I don't think she's the type to allow herself to fall in love before knowing that the person in question is willing to give romance a try (and I don't think she knew Snape was in love with her), and I think she would also require the person to be heading down a good enough path, first.)

Hm, I suppose if both people want to add romance to the friendship, they'd both consider that an upgrade, though. And if they didn't want to add romance, it wouldn't be an upgrade.

But to avoid the unfortunate implication of "friendship is never good enough", perhaps "friendship addition" would be a better name for the trope. Or maybe just stick "upgrade" in quotations marks, like "friendship "upgrade"". IDK. I'll stuck it in quotation marks and adjust my sig accordingly, for now.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't know. I think Lily needed someone who didn't need her as an emotional crutch, a comfort blanket. I think Lily needed someone who could be an emotional support to her, just as much as she was to them. I think Lily needed a more balanced relationship. I don't think Lily would have been happy being someone's only reason for not doing ill. That's too much pressure to put on one person.
Well, I think Snape must have offered Lily some emotional support, or the friendship wouldn't have been maintained for as long as it was (especially in light of what Snape was getting into), and there's evidence of Snape giving Lily some emotional support when they were younger, before Hogwarts and on the train (when he's talking with her about her fears about dementors and worries about being Muggle-born, in the forest, and when he's refraining from insulting Petunia over being Muggle and trying to cheer Lily up on the train).

I think the balance was getting increasingly out of whack, in canon, culminating in SWM, but if one is taking it AU and having Snape start making better choices and giving him a good redemption arc, then he need not be using Lily as an emotional crutch and Lily need not be his only reason for not doing ill. (And I don't think Lily was Snape's only reason for continuing on redemption road, at a certain point, in canon, since he got to a point where he would no longer watch people die whom he could save, and he was willing to give up protecting Harry (which is what Snape wanted to do for Lily) to do the right thing and keep on fighting Voldemort and give Harry a choice about what to do about sacrificing himself.)

Anyway, taking it AU, Lily may be an inspiration for a trip down redemption road before SWM, and even an inspiration for how to be good, but if one is having Snape make better choices and giving him positive character growth enough for Severus/Lily to ultimately be happy and healthy, then he would wind up wanting to be good not just for Lily, but for himself, and for moral reasons in general. I think canon Snape valued good but he also wanted power and he allowed himself to be blinded by that so it got in the way and he gave up good for power, and if one takes it AU, one could correct that with character growth (and maybe get him some counseling).

And I think Lily would be happy to be the inspiration for Snape's goodness (it seems she was trying to inspire him to goodness in canon, he just wouldn't give up the competing desire for power). This wouldn't make her a crutch, and I don't think she would want to be a crutch because she'd want Snape to continue being good, even if something happened to her, and being a crutch would be a lot of pressure, but I think she'd be happy to inspire and to help.

And then of course, in this AU, Snape would be getting back to providing Lily with more emotional support, and eventually, in not too long a time, better than ever before (although not perfect cause no one's perfect). 'Cause if one is taking AU, one can give a character as much character growth as they want in whatever direction they want (ideally showing their work, showing the progress and how it happens, and writing it believably for those willing to entertain the notion of reformed whoever, IMO). And I think Lily would be very happy to have her friend back to his old self in that regard and with improved emotional support.

And Snape would still be Snape, he'd just be a better version of Snape (provided one prefers reformed Snape). Just like James was still James when he deflated his head some, he just became a better version of James (Lily wouldn't have been happy with James if he remained as he was at the time SWM, after all), IMO. And Lily became a better version of Lily, when she stopped being in denial and drew a line in the sand about Snape.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
We don't know what Peter was like, before befriending James and Sirius, I agree. However, McGonagall considered him as the kid who was tagging along with James and Sirius. IMO, he was the kid who would have been quite lonely without James and Sirius. I think Lily would have seen the good in James and Sirius including Peter. And, as I said before, Lily would have seen other sides to James apart from the bullying behaviour.
I think Lily saw redeeming qualities in James, but before he deflated his head, she was disgusted by enough of his behavior to say that he was as bad as Snape after Snape called her Mudblood, so I think at that time she would have viewed James as a bad influence, over all. Not that she didn't still see some good in James (like saving Snape, and being against the Dark Arts and pure-blood supremacy, for instance) so I don't think she'd have viewed him as a wholly bad influence, but I think the good influence parts would carry more weight if Peter wasn't also getting the bad influence.

It's like with Snape, he'd have been more lonely without his other friends, as bad as they were, but Lily apparently thought it would be better for Snape to drop them and go without their friendship since they were being bad influences. So, if James and Sirius were helping to lead Peter down a bullying path (which he seemed to be doing until he deflated his head some, IMO), then Lily might have thought Peter would be better off alone, or better off just being friends with Lupin. And Lupin was Peter's friend before the others, so if James and Sirius hadn't gotten on board with accepting Peter, then Peter would have still had Lupin and not be totally lonely (see Pottermore for that added info about how Peter became friends with the Marauders because of Lupin's convincing), anyway. Granted, once Sirius and James accepted Peter, he seemed to really latch on to them, but he was also latching on to their bullying, cheerleading it and whatnot, which was not good for him or their victims, and I think Lily would see that and not look kindly upon their overall influence on Peter, due to that. I don't think she saw them as being as bad an influence on Peter as Mulciber and Avery were on Snape, but it would still be judged as bad enough, I think.

Now, once James stopped with the bullying and deflated his head some, I think Lily would look more kindly on the influence he had on Peter, and then she'd see his friendship with Peter as being firmly in the plus column.

I also don't think Lily expected James to reform. I think she was pleasantly surprised, but I don't think she was counting on it, and I figure she was thinking it unlikely, while recognizing the possibility was there. I think she thought it was a pity that he had the bad qualities that prompted her dislike, since he had some important redeeming qualities, too (which is what kept her from hating him, like she hated Mulciber and Avery, but I don't think she liked James either, whether she found him attractive in some way(s) or not, until he reformed.)

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think she would have had a problem with James and Sirius being a bad influence, but I think Lily would also have been able to see shades of grey. I think she would have recognised what a big thing it was for these two pureblood kids, raised with the anti-werewolf prejudice, to support and care for their werewolf friend. Having attended Hogwarts during Voldemort's rise to power, having been the target of racial slurs herself, I think Lily would have appreciated just how significant it was to see these two befriending a werewolf. What's more, I think she would have seen just how significant it was to hear and see them standing up against racial slurs like "mudblood". At a time when DEs were actively killing, they were standing up and saying "no" even as teenagers.
Yeah, I recognize Lily seeing shades of grey (and I covered some of that in my post), but it seems that since she wasn't making friends with them, I think she was seeing them as being an overall/ultimately bad influence, not that they didn't have redeeming qualities and not that they were a wholly bad influence. I think she would have thought that it was a pity about the bullying and arrogance, and the hypocrisy of being bullies and abusing non-Dark spells, while claiming to hold the high ground in general because they were standing for justice on some other things like pure-blood supremacy and not using Dark Magic. That seemed to be Lily's attitude when James defended himself by saying he never called her Mudblood, in SWM, IMO. I think she would have thought it a pity that they had these bad actions and qualities getting in the way of the quest for justice that they were on in other areas. I think she did see their lack of anti-werewolf prejudice and their stand against pure-blood supremacy as a big plus, it just didn't outweigh the bad stuff like the bullying and arrogance that she also saw, from what I can tell, until they reformed and dialed down the bad stuff that was getting in the way.


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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking.

Last edited by sailorlum; April 25th, 2014 at 11:06 pm. Reason: added ETA, added ETA 2 (responses to FurryDice), reworded something, added a clarifier
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  #54  
Old April 26th, 2014, 1:03 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
Anyway, IA that Lily was making a mistake in being in some denial about how bad the situation had gotten with Snape. I think it would have been better if she had leveled an ultimatum about Snape being friends with racist wannabe terrorists, sooner, much sooner. I actually think one of Lily's flaws is that she "woobied" Snape, a bit.
I think that is a flaw on Lily's part, but not due to anything she owed Snape in "helping" him change - I see that as being solely Snape's responsibility. I don't see it as Lily's responsibility to convince Snape that murder and bigotry were wrong. I see it as Lily's responsibility to choose people in her life who respect her and whom she can trust. I think she faced up to that responsibility when she finally accepted that she could have nobody in her life who could racially abuse her.

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I think a big lampshade would need to be hung on how lucky Lily got that it worked out in the end, if she tried that.
I think even the lampshade-hanging would be overlooked if the unhealthy message of changing the dangerous/troubled man, no matter the cost to the woman's safety or self-respect, was canon. There's quite enough of that in fiction at the moment, IMO.

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Well, yeah, the second chance wouldn't last long if he didn't follow through on it. He'd need to follow through on it for the gamble of her giving him another chance to pay off.
If Lily had given a second chance to someone who racially abused her, I don't think she would also be the kind of person to draw the line the next time. Maybe when it escalated. But it takes strength to walk away from a toxic relationship, and Lily had that strength. Without that strength, I imagine she would have ended up very unhappy.

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I think whether friendship is good enough, in a particular relationship, is up to the two people involved,
To both of them, indeed, I agree.

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Well, I think Snape must have offered Lily some emotional support, or the friendship wouldn't have been maintained for as long as it was (especially in light of what Snape was getting into), and there's evidence of Snape giving Lily some emotional support when they were younger, before Hogwarts and on the train (when he's talking with her about her fears about dementors and worries about being Muggle-born, in the forest, and when he's refraining from insulting Petunia over being Muggle and trying to cheer Lily up on the train).
When they were younger, yes, but by the time of SWM, Lily had become an emotional crutch, and that's too much pressure for most people, let alone a teenager.

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I think the balance was getting increasingly out of whack, in canon, culminating in SWM,
I agree, and this is the point I was referring to. By the time they were fifteen/sixteen, Snape was becoming increasingly, unhealthily dependent on Lily. It wasn't a relationship of equal support and trust. It wasn't an emotionally healthy friendship, IMO.

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And I think Lily would be happy to be the inspiration for Snape's goodness (it seems she was trying to inspire him to goodness in canon, he just wouldn't give up the competing desire for power). This wouldn't make her a crutch, and I don't think she would want to be a crutch because she'd want Snape to continue being good, even if something happened to her, and being a crutch would be a lot of pressure, but I think she'd be happy to inspire and to help.
I disagree. I don't think Lily would be happy or secure with the thought that Snape's only reason for not being a DE was having her. IMO, that is a form of emotional blackmail. I don't think Lily would be able to trust a man who had no moral objection to the DEs. Lily wanted people in her life who were as utterly opposed to the evils of that group as she was. Someone whose opposition to Voldemort was conditional on her giving herself to him would not be trustworthy to Lily, IMO.

IMO, being Snape's only reason not to commit crime would make her a crutch, and I don't think she would be happy with it. IMO, Lily wanted a balanced relationship, where she was not the only reason not to commit crime.

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I think Lily saw redeeming qualities in James, but before he deflated his head, she was disgusted by enough of his behavior to say that he was as bad as Snape after Snape called her Mudblood, so I think at that time she would have viewed James as a bad influence, over all. Not that she didn't still see some good in James (like saving Snape, and being against the Dark Arts and pure-blood supremacy, for instance) so I don't think she'd have viewed him as a wholly bad influence, but I think the good influence parts would carry more weight if Peter wasn't also getting the bad influence.
I think Lily was able to draw a distinction between DEs and school bullies, however. I think she knew which group were racist wannabe terrorists and which group were just brats.


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I think she would have thought that it was a pity about the bullying and arrogance, and the hypocrisy of being bullies and abusing non-Dark spells, while claiming to hold the high ground in general because they were standing for justice on some other things like pure-blood supremacy and not using Dark Magic.
She did call them on their hypocrisy, when she told James he was just as bad. However, I think Lily was able to tell the difference between Dark Magic/bigotry and bullying.

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I think she would have thought it a pity that they had these bad actions and qualities getting in the way of the quest for justice that they were on in other areas.
That's how I see it, too.

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I think she did see their lack of anti-werewolf prejudice and their stand against pure-blood supremacy as a big plus, it just didn't outweigh the bad stuff like the bullying and arrogance that she also saw, from what I can tell, until they reformed and dialed down the bad stuff that was getting in the way.
I agree, it didn't outweigh the bad behaviour. However, I think it showed her that they were not wholly bad and that they were a far cry from Mulciber.


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  #55  
Old April 26th, 2014, 10:29 am
sailorlum  Female.gif sailorlum is offline
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
Anyway, IA that Lily was making a mistake in being in some denial about how bad the situation had gotten with Snape. I think it would have been better if she had leveled an ultimatum about Snape being friends with racist wannabe terrorists, sooner, much sooner. I actually think one of Lily's flaws is that she "woobied" Snape, a bit.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think that is a flaw on Lily's part, but not due to anything she owed Snape in "helping" him change - I see that as being solely Snape's responsibility. I don't see it as Lily's responsibility to convince Snape that murder and bigotry were wrong. I see it as Lily's responsibility to choose people in her life who respect her and whom she can trust. I think she faced up to that responsibility when she finally accepted that she could have nobody in her life who could racially abuse her.
I don't think Lily owed Snape help nor do I think it was her responsibility to convince him of any of the things he needed convincing of, either, and I think Snape is ultimately responsible for his changing or not, since a person can only change themselves. A person can get help, if it's available/offered, and if they want or need help (sometimes people need help) it's their responsibility to accept help already offered or seek it out (like an addict seeking out AA and accepting help from a sponsor). Help isn't owed, even if needed, but if one needs it (or wants it), it's one's responsibility to find/accept it, and I think it's a good thing if someone in need of help seeks it out, provided they are willing to do the hard work they need doing to change themselves, and not expecting the helper to do it for them. Help is just that: help.

I think it's Lily's responsibility to make her own choices. I think it's best she choose people who respect her and whom she can trust. Snape no longer fit that bill for her when she broke off the friendship, and James didn't fit that bill for her, either, until he deflated his head some. I think Lily did what she needed to do in breaking off the friendship with Snape, and in not going out with James until he became the kind of person she felt respected her and whom she could trust.

Lily wanted to help Snape, though, so she had a decision to make as to how far she was willing to go in trying. I think it would have been best if she'd issued an ultimatum sooner, for her own good, not necessarily for Snape's (since she can't control how he'll react to it). If she'd issued it sooner, and Snape took her seriously and listened to reason and saw the light (or at least chose her and then listened to reason and saw the light) and started making better choices and moving back on to a better path, a good path, then yay, Lily gets what she wants and is spared the pain of losing her best friend and also spared the stress of the person she's trying to help not accepting it and carrying down the bad path anyway, and Snape turns his life around for the better which is good for him, too (less soul damage and whatnot) and good for anyone he would hurt going down the bad path. However, if she'd issued it sooner and Snape carried on like he did in canon (which is what would be most likely to happen if the AU didn't include having Snape start making better choices, since canon Snape didn't turn from his bad path until Lily was directly targeted for death) then Lily would know sooner that she needed to get out of the relationship and it would save her some time beating her head against a brick wall, and some psychological stress from carrying on and not making any headway and things in fact getting worse, in an important relationship. Either way, Lily would be better off, IMO (more so if Snape saw the light, but still better off than in canon, if she figured out she needed to leave the relationship sooner, IMO.)

Having said all that, it would have been best, even better, if Snape hadn't gone down the bad path, to begin with, of course, IMO. He was lucky Lily was willing to help him, but alas, he squandered the opportunity.

And Lily's not to blame for having her patience, forgiveness, helpfulness, and friendship, betrayed. Even if someone is making a safety mistake, that doesn't give another person the right to hurt them.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think even the lampshade-hanging would be overlooked if the unhealthy message of changing the dangerous/troubled man, no matter the cost to the woman's safety or self-respect, was canon. There's quite enough of that in fiction at the moment, IMO.
Well, I think it depends on the reader. I wouldn't overlook a healthy lampshade just because canon had an unhealthy message (wow that's a weird sentence )...in fact, if canon had that unhealthy message, then the healthy-message-lampshade-hanging fic would fall under the heading of "fix-it fic", IMO. I'd consider canon to have shipped it wrong and the fic to be eliminating the wrongness. ...But I'm not sure how many people would be into both the ship and the fix-it fic, in that situation, nor how many people would get the healthy lampshade hanging.

Regardless of fic concerns, I'm glad JKR didn't write that unhealthy message for canon. Like I've said, I support James/Lily in canon. And I'd rather see unrequited Lily/Snape, than requited love-martyr!Lily/Snape. I'm actually very picky about my Severus/Lily fic, and have only a few favorites, counting canon compliant and AU fic, and I prefer AU fic, but still, few favorites in that category (only one fic, and one fic series come to mind, not counting my own, for AU).

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
If Lily had given a second chance to someone who racially abused her, I don't think she would also be the kind of person to draw the line the next time. Maybe when it escalated. But it takes strength to walk away from a toxic relationship, and Lily had that strength. Without that strength, I imagine she would have ended up very unhappy.
I don't know, she could learn from her forgiveness backfiring and it happening again and decide to call it quits. She could gain strength, if she didn't have it before. And her deciding to give a second chance wouldn't necessarily mean she didn't have strength, it might just mean she was willing to gamble one more time, knowing that it could go wrong, and she figured she had the strength to handle it and walk away if it did. I'd hate to see that happen to her, as it would add to her trauma. I'd rather her not give Snape a second chance if he's not going to follow through.

And really, SWM is my shipping point of no return, so I'd rather it go AU before SWM, and I only ship it as an OTP if it goes AU before SWM and there's Snape redemption, yadda yadda. I might read a fic that tries to pull off post-SWM Snape/Lily, out of curiosity, but I wouldn't have much hope for it being done well, and I wouldn't have much hope for me liking it.

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
I think the balance was getting increasingly out of whack, in canon, culminating in SWM,

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I agree, and this is the point I was referring to. By the time they were fifteen/sixteen, Snape was becoming increasingly, unhealthily dependent on Lily. It wasn't a relationship of equal support and trust. It wasn't an emotionally healthy friendship, IMO.
Yeah, that's why I said Snape would need to be "getting back to providing Lily with more emotional support, and eventually, in not too long a time, better than ever before (although not perfect cause no one's perfect)"

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I disagree. I don't think Lily would be happy or secure with the thought that Snape's only reason for not being a DE was having her. IMO, that is a form of emotional blackmail. I don't think Lily would be able to trust a man who had no moral objection to the DEs. Lily wanted people in her life who were as utterly opposed to the evils of that group as she was. Someone whose opposition to Voldemort was conditional on her giving herself to him would not be trustworthy to Lily, IMO.

IMO, being Snape's only reason not to commit crime would make her a crutch, and I don't think she would be happy with it. IMO, Lily wanted a balanced relationship, where she was not the only reason not to commit crime.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't say anything about Snape demanding to "have" Lily or he'd become a DE and whatnot, nor did I say anything about Lily offering to "give herself" to Snape in exchange for him opposing Voldemort and whatnot, nor did I say Snape would have no moral objection to the DEs. A world of no.

If Lily gave an ultimatum it would be along the lines of not being willing to be friends anymore, if Snape wanted to carry on his bad path, and she'd need to know he understood why he shouldn't carry on that path and that he agreed that he shouldn't and agree to do what is right, not just for the friendship but because he knew he shouldn't be doing it anyway. As I said, "he would wind up wanting to be good not just for Lily, but for himself, and for moral reasons in general" in this AU. Choosing Lily's friendship over the DE path would just be the start that started the conversation about why he should choose to get off the DE path, and if he's choosing her anyway, I think he'd let go his denial about his bad path and come to his senses. And if he's coming to his senses, he's going to become as utterly opposed to the evils of the DEs as Lily was. I think Lily would be happy to have that happen. And him coming to his senses would allow Lily to fall in love with him, but it wouldn't be something offered up in exchange or demanded, it would just be a bonus, a pleasant surprise. (Kind of like how James came to his senses and deflated his head some and stopped with the bullying, and that allowed Lily to fall in love with him, in canon.)

And also, if one is merely inspiring and helping, as Lily would do, one is not a crutch, because inspiring and helping is just that, it's not doing the work for the other person. They would still have to do the bulk of the work, and if they work hard, which Snape would in this AU, then they wouldn't need so much help as time goes on and they'd be able to pay back the help and inspiration with help and inspiration of their own, for the person who helped and inspired them, (and for other people). And I think Lily would be very happy to have her friend back to his old self when it comes to the good things he was losing, and with improved good things, like improved emotional support and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think Lily was able to draw a distinction between DEs and school bullies, however. I think she knew which group were racist wannabe terrorists and which group were just brats.
First of all, I think school bullies are more than just brats. Bullying is serious business. It's abuse. That's more than just being a brat, IMO. And I think Lily felt the same way. She seemed to take bullying very seriously, as evidenced by her saying James was just as bad as Snape, after Snape called her a Mudblood, no less! I don't think she said that lightly.

I do think that Lily made a distinction between DEs/[Dark Magic using] racist wannabe terrorists and garden variety bullies, but I think she viewed the latter as a lesser of two evils, rather than mere brattiness, because the latter isn't trying to take over the world/country, isn't targeting an entire race, and isn't terrorizing people on such a wide scale. But the bullies are still terrorizing and abusing their victims, and that is serious and very bad, and I think Lily saw that.

Now, to their credit, James (and to a lesser extent Sirius) reformed, and that is what allowed Lily to be friends with them and to fall in love with James, IMO.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
She did call them on their hypocrisy, when she told James he was just as bad. However, I think Lily was able to tell the difference between Dark Magic/bigotry and bullying.
My response above covers this in general. Regarding the Dark Magic specifically, similar to the above, while bullying with non-Dark spells is a lesser evil than throwing Dark Magic on top of that, it's still very bad. I think Lily saw a distinction, but I think she took the bullying very seriously, even if it wasn't as bad as the Dark Magic hurling kind, IMO.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I agree, it didn't outweigh the bad behaviour. However, I think it showed her that they were not wholly bad and that they were a far cry from Mulciber.
As I said "Yeah, I recognize Lily seeing shades of grey....I think she was seeing them as being an overall/ultimately bad influence, not that they didn't have redeeming qualities and not that they were a wholly bad influence." And I said "...I don't think she'd have viewed James as a wholly bad influence" and that goes for Sirius, too.

I agree that Lily would say they were a far cry from Mulciber, but I don't think she'd say they were merely brats, and I think she'd say they were bad for the bullying and the bullying was a very bad thing and a lesser of two evils from DE style/Mulciber. She flat out says in the text that Mulciber gets up to evil, and James was as bad as Snape after he called her Mudblood, so I think that's an important distinction, without rendering James a mere brat. He was more than naughty, he was bad, but not evil, and not wholly bad, I think she'd say.


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Old April 26th, 2014, 11:48 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
I think it's Lily's responsibility to make her own choices. I think it's best she choose people who respect her and whom she can trust. Snape no longer fit that bill for her when she broke off the friendship, and James didn't fit that bill for her, either, until he deflated his head some. I think Lily did what she needed to do in breaking off the friendship with Snape, and in not going out with James until he became the kind of person she felt respected her and whom she could trust.
I agree. Lily was a strong young woman, strong enough to know that it wasn't her responsibility to "fix" anybody. Strong enough not to buy into that dangerous fallacy. Lily was strong enough to know that a relationship should be positive and supportive for both parties, not one person acting as an emotional crutch for the other.

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I think it would have been best if she'd issued an ultimatum sooner, for her own good, not necessarily for Snape's (since she can't control how he'll react to it).
For her own good, then yes. But only for her own good, as it wasn't her responsibility to point out that murder was wrong. However, that still brings back the canon-based dilemma - how would Lily know that the ultimatum had brought about true change, and not a conditional one? How would she know that there was any moral change whatsoever? This is what I mean by the result being Snape not being a DE becoming dependent on having Lily. How would she know or trust that this was not the case? In terms of the canon characters, I mean.


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And Lily's not to blame for having her patience, forgiveness, helpfulness, and friendship, betrayed. Even if someone is making a safety mistake, that doesn't give another person the right to hurt them.
I fully agree.

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Well, I think it depends on the reader. I wouldn't overlook a healthy lampshade just because canon had an unhealthy message (wow that's a weird sentence )...in fact, if canon had that unhealthy message, then the healthy-message-lampshade-hanging fic would fall under the heading of "fix-it fic", IMO. I'd consider canon to have shipped it wrong and the fic to be eliminating the wrongness. ...But I'm not sure how many people would be into both the ship and the fix-it fic, in that situation, nor how many people would get the healthy lampshade hanging.
Well, considering how popular certain popular fiction featuring messed up men and the women who "fix" them is, I can't see many people taking note of the lampshade.

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I don't know, she could learn from her forgiveness backfiring and it happening again and decide to call it quits. She could gain strength, if she didn't have it before. And her deciding to give a second chance wouldn't necessarily mean she didn't have strength, it might just mean she was willing to gamble one more time, knowing that it could go wrong, and she figured she had the strength to handle it and walk away if it did. I'd hate to see that happen to her, as it would add to her trauma. I'd rather her not give Snape a second chance if he's not going to follow through.
I would hope that she would walk away if (when) it went wrong. But if Lily forgave the worst racial slur, if Lily forgave the bigotry and the DE friends, would she really be the kind of person to demand an end to that behaviour? Would she really be the kind of person to walk away the next time? Would she really be the kind of person to walk away when Snape showed up boasting about his DE tattoo? Where would she draw the line?


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Whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't say anything about Snape demanding to "have" Lily or he'd become a DE and whatnot, nor did I say anything about Lily offering to "give herself" to Snape in exchange for him opposing Voldemort and whatnot, nor did I say Snape would have no moral objection to the DEs. A world of no.
That is how I see it in canon. I don't see it as Snape issuing that ultimatum. I see it as a concern Lily would have. She would not know how sincere Snape's behaviour was, if it was in response to an ultimatum. That's the problem with ultimatums.

That is how I see a continued relationship between Lily and Snape, if Lily had issued Snape with an ultimatum, there would have been no moral turnaround. It would have been conditional on Lily being what he wanted her to be, rather than what she wanted to be. If Lily had issued Snape that ultimatum, she would have known just how tenuous his standing on her side of the war was. And she needed to surround herself with people who were unequivocally, wholly on the anti-Voldemort side, in every way.

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If Lily gave an ultimatum it would be along the lines of not being willing to be friends anymore, if Snape wanted to carry on his bad path, and she'd need to know he understood why he shouldn't carry on that path and that he agreed that he shouldn't and agree to do what is right, not just for the friendship but because he knew he shouldn't be doing it anyway. As I said, "he would wind up wanting to be good not just for Lily, but for himself, and for moral reasons in general" in this AU.
I think we're getting our wires crossed here. I am talking solely about canon, and your posts seem to delve into AU fanfiction. In canon, Lily was dealing with someone who did not even understand her moral objections to torture, murder and bigotry.

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And also, if one is merely inspiring and helping, as Lily would do, one is not a crutch, because inspiring and helping is just that, it's not doing the work for the other person. They would still have to do the bulk of the work, and if they work hard, which Snape would in this AU, then they wouldn't need so much help as time goes on and they'd be able to pay back the help and inspiration with help and inspiration of their own, for the person who helped and inspired them, (and for other people). And I think Lily would be very happy to have her friend back to his old self when it comes to the good things he was losing, and with improved good things, like improved emotional support and whatnot.
That of course depends on the other person being willing to do the work, rather than just being content at having the person they want with them. (Something we already see evidence for when Snape ignores Lily's concerns about Mulciber and Avery after she agrees with him about James Potter.) If this is an example of how their discussions about his dangerous friends usually went, I can see why Lily, in canon, didn't hold out much hope for Snape being willing to do the work. It shows me why, in canon, Lily could have become an emotional crutch.


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Last edited by FurryDice; April 26th, 2014 at 12:06 pm. Reason: Fixing typos
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Old April 26th, 2014, 2:57 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
For her own good, then yes. But only for her own good, as it wasn't her responsibility to point out that murder was wrong. However, that still brings back the canon-based dilemma - how would Lily know that the ultimatum had brought about true change, and not a conditional one? How would she know that there was any moral change whatsoever? This is what I mean by the result being Snape not being a DE becoming dependent on having Lily. How would she know or trust that this was not the case? In terms of the canon characters, I mean.
Lily didn't issue an ultimatum in canon. If Lily is issuing an ultimatum, we are talking about an AU, and an AU Lily, since she is at least a little bit AU for the change of her issuing an ultimatum.

If we are talking about a different AU than I was talking about, one where Snape doesn't change for the better, then it's not going to end well.

If we are talking about canon, then we already know what happened in canon (although there may be some disagreement on interp, here and there).

Do you want to know what I think would happen in the "Lily issues ultimatum, Snape decides to change for the better AU" or the "Lily issues ultimatum, Snape decides to keep on down the bad path AU"? Or neither?

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Well, considering how popular certain popular fiction featuring messed up men and the women who "fix" them is, I can't see many people taking note of the lampshade.
Well, the ones who would be that way, are likely to blame canon Lily for not fixing Snape, so her dropping Snape isn't going to change their minds any more than the lampshade is. And it's been my experience that most of these people see the lampshade, but they disagree with it and they don't like it.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I would hope that she would walk away if (when) it went wrong. But if Lily forgave the worst racial slur, if Lily forgave the bigotry and the DE friends, would she really be the kind of person to demand an end to that behaviour? Would she really be the kind of person to walk away the next time? Would she really be the kind of person to walk away when Snape showed up boasting about his DE tattoo? Where would she draw the line?
I figure if she was willing to gamble one more time, knowing that it could go wrong, and she figured she had the strength to handle it and walk away if it did, then she'd walk away if it went wrong, the next time it went wrong.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
That is how I see it in canon. I don't see it as Snape issuing that ultimatum. I see it as a concern Lily would have. She would not know how sincere Snape's behaviour was, if it was in response to an ultimatum. That's the problem with ultimatums.

That is how I see a continued relationship between Lily and Snape, if Lily had issued Snape with an ultimatum, there would have been no moral turnaround. It would have been conditional on Lily being what he wanted her to be, rather than what she wanted to be. If Lily had issued Snape that ultimatum, she would have known just how tenuous his standing on her side of the war was. And she needed to surround herself with people who were unequivocally, wholly on the anti-Voldemort side, in every way.
Again, if there's an ultimatum being issued, by either Lily or Snape, it's not in canon. I don't know how you can see it in canon, when it's an AU the moment the ultimatum is issued. What happens after that is up to the writer. Are they going to have Snape carry on like he did in canon, and refuse to change, or are they going to have Snape decide to get his priorities straight, break out of denial, and change his ways for the better?

I will say that I disagree that there's no way for Lily to trust Snape if she issues an ultimatum. There's no way to know for sure how sincere anyone is, really, ever, (even in the wizard world, Occlumency can defeat all attempts to force the truth), so a person would have to decide if they could trust the other person. Maybe they'd listen to their gut, maybe they'd look at some evidence, maybe they'd take a leap of faith and hope for the best, maybe all three. Pre-SWM, Lily is apparently willing to trust that Snape can come to his senses and change (she seems to believe that he will, until SWM, even, seeing as she's still best friends with him) IMO, so if it's pre-SWM, then she's going to trust him if he agrees to change and apologizes for all the wrongdoing, if I'm the writer and I'm going with my canon interp of Lily (aside from her issuing the ultimatum which is AU) in this AU. If he doesn't follow through on his promise to change, if there isn't evidence of him following through, then that trust would be broken, and it would be splitsville after all. If there is evidence of him following through, then she continues to trust.

If I'm the writer, and I'm having Snape carry on like he did in canon according to my interp, then I'd wager that Snape would try and hold on to both Lily and the DE dream (he wouldn't agree to change and would try and get Lily to take back the ultimatum, or something like that) and Lily would drop him right then and there.

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I think we're getting our wires crossed here. I am talking solely about canon, and your posts seem to delve into AU fanfiction. In canon, Lily was dealing with someone who did not even understand her moral objections to torture, murder and bigotry.
Yep, IA, wires are getting crossed. And my posts don't seem to delve into AU fic possibilities, they blatantly do, when I say I'm talking about an AU or "if this happened instead" type of things! Where are you getting confused? (Sincerely, I'll do my best to add a clarifier or something to prevent confusion, if I can figure out how/where it's happening.)

And while JKR did say that Snape never really understood Lily's aversion to Mulciber and Avery and the DEs because he was blinded by his desire for power, that doesn't mean that he didn't understand at all, only that his desire for power was blinding him to understanding totally, IMO. I think Snape was in denial, not totally morally clueless.

And while Snape didn't see the light until too late for his relationship with Lily, in canon, if one takes it AU, then that writer can have him see the light, if they want. And if you don't want to discuss that possibility, that's totally fine. Just ignore that segment of the conversation. And if you want to discuss an AU, but only an AU where Snape doesn't change, regardless of any other change, then say something like "well, what if Snape was like he was in canon, and [x change you want to talk about] happened?" and I'll give my opinion on that if you want it, no skin off my teeth.

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That of course depends on the other person being willing to do the work, rather than just being content at having the person they want with them. (Something we already see evidence for when Snape ignores Lily's concerns about Mulciber and Avery after she agrees with him about James Potter.) If this is an example of how their discussions about his dangerous friends usually went, I can see why Lily, in canon, didn't hold out much hope for Snape being willing to do the work. It shows me why, in canon, Lily could have become an emotional crutch.
First of all, if Lily became an emotional crutch for Snape, it wouldn't be in canon, because that didn't happen in canon, and Lily wouldn't be canon Lily. It would be an AU with AU Lily. And if one is going to have an AU with an AU Lily then they can have an AU with an AU Snape. In an AU, one could have one or both change and be or become different than they were in canon to whatever degree one wants (although it being believable and/or satisfying is up to individual taste and up for debate).

Now, as an aside, if we were trying to figure out what kind of AU fic JKR would write if she were inclined to write one, with this or that changed, then that might be a whole other kettle of fish.

Second of all, in canon, like I said above, Lily seemed to hold out a lot of hope for Snape being willing to see the light and do the work, until SWM, or she wouldn't have tried to talk sense to him and remain best friends with him, IMO.


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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking.

Last edited by sailorlum; April 26th, 2014 at 3:03 pm. Reason: added some clarifiers
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Old April 26th, 2014, 4:00 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by sailorlum View Post
Lily didn't issue an ultimatum in canon. If Lily is issuing an ultimatum, we are talking about an AU, and an AU Lily, since she is at least a little bit AU for the change of her issuing an ultimatum.
Yes, we are talking AU in terms of one choice. However, when discussing "what ifs", I prefer to stay with the canon characters, as I see them, rather than delve into the realm of fan-fiction.

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Well, the ones who would be that way, are likely to blame canon Lily for not fixing Snape, so her dropping Snape isn't going to change their minds any more than the lampshade is. And it's been my experience that most of these people see the lampshade, but they disagree with it and they don't like it.
Sadly, yes.

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I figure if she was willing to gamble one more time, knowing that it could go wrong, and she figured she had the strength to handle it and walk away if it did, then she'd walk away if it went wrong, the next time it went wrong.
I would hope so, but it could also result in an unending series of "one more chance", even when Snape was parading his DE tattoo, if Lily was not the strong person she was in canon. The strong young woman who walked away the minute someone she had once trusted racially abused her.

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I will say that I disagree that there's no way for Lily to trust Snape if she issues an ultimatum.
But if she had issued an ultimatum, how would she know whether he was truly developing morals, or whether he still hankered for the DE lifestyle and prejudice, just kept it in check while she was around? IMO, in canon, Lily saw this when it came to the apology "why should I be any different?" This may be why she didn't issue Snape with any ultimatum that day - why should she be singled out for apology, if it was fine to racially abuse other Muggleborns? In canon, Lily wanted people in her life who were completely and utterly as opposed to Voldemort as she was. Not people who wavered when it came to opposing torture and murder, not people who had to be persuaded that the genocidal campaign of the DEs was a bad thing. This is a young woman whose school career was overshadowed by Voldemort's war, by the crimes and fear of the first war. She couldn't afford to have people in her life who might be grudgingly against Voldemort, or grudgingly not supporting him. In canon, Lily wanted people whom she could trust to be fully and unflinchingly against Voldemort.

I think that pre-SWM, Lily was in denial about how far her friend had gone. I think that having lost her relationship with Petunia, she wanted to hold on to her friendship with Snape. I think that blinded her to the extent of the problem. Yes, she was hopeful that she could help him to see sense, but the racial slur wasn't a huge change in the problem - it was the problems that were there bubbling to the surface. The problem with Snape's DE goals didn't magically become worse in that instant - the problem was already there, this was just the problem becoming so blatant and so hurtful that Lily could no longer pretend that she could "fix" him and it.


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If I'm the writer, and I'm having Snape carry on like he did in canon according to my interp, then I'd wager that Snape would try and hold on to both Lily and the DE dream (he wouldn't agree to change and would try and get Lily to take back the ultimatum, or something like that) and Lily would drop him right then and there.
If we are talking about the canon characters, as written by JKR, with their canon personalities, that is what I see happening if canon-Lily had given canon-Snape an ultimatum.

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Yep, IA, wires are getting crossed. And my posts don't seem to delve into AU fic possibilities, they blatantly do, when I say I'm talking about an AU or "if this happened instead" type of things! Where are you getting confused? (Sincerely, I'll do my best to add a clarifier or something to prevent confusion, if I can figure out how/where it's happening.)
It was very clear, but I didn't want to seem accusatory by point blank saying that the posts were AU/fanfic.

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First of all, if Lily became an emotional crutch for Snape, it wouldn't be in canon, because that didn't happen in canon, and Lily wouldn't be canon Lily. It would be an AU with AU Lily. And if one is going to have an AU with an AU Lily then they can have an AU with an AU Snape. In an AU, one could have one or both change and be or become different than they were in canon to whatever degree one wants (although it being believable and/or satisfying is up to individual taste and up for debate).
No, it would not be canon, I agree. However, speaking about the canon characters, and the decisions they could have made, if canon-Lily had chosen to forgive canon-Snape, and if he had dropped his DE friends to stay in her good books, Lily would have been his only reason, making her an emotional crutch. I am talking about AU in terms of decisions they could have made, but I am trying to stay with the canon characters as I see them, not an AU version of the characters, with somewhat different personalities and moral codes.

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Second of all, in canon, like I said above, Lily seemed to hold out a lot of hope for Snape being willing to see the light and do the work, until SWM, or she wouldn't have tried to talk sense to him and remain best friends with him, IMO.
Yes, she tried to talk some sense to him. But when he racially abused her, she realised that her concerns were falling on wilfully deaf ears. IMO, this was the moment when Lily realised that she could no longer trust him. IMO, Lily felt that this was someone who did not respect her, and someone she could no longer deny was choosing to be on the other side of the war.


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Old April 27th, 2014, 4:01 am
sailorlum  Female.gif sailorlum is offline
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Yes, we are talking AU in terms of one choice. However, when discussing "what ifs", I prefer to stay with the canon characters, as I see them, rather than delve into the realm of fan-fiction.
I'd say if we are talking AU in terms of even one choice, then we are taking in to the realm of fanfic already.

What I'm hearing you say, is that you prefer to change one thing and have that one thing ultimately not change the characters at all (the different choice would have such a temporary effect that the status quo would be maintained). If so, that kinda defeats the purpose of taking it AU and saying "what if" (the purpose of which I see as exploring different possibilities), IMO, unless your point is that the characters were prisoners of fate or something.

And I don't think that's true since the characters live in a world where it's their choices that matter more than "what" the people are, and free will exists (accept for possibly Voldemort, who may have some kind of brain damage rendering him mentally incompetent, I suppose), so if they make a different choice, they change who they are, at least a little bit, and that choice could inspire more choices and more change. And since JKR said that all her characters (barring Voldemort) were capable of redemption (that includes even Greyback and Umbridge!), and even Voldemort could have turned out differently if he was raised differently (indicating that he must have had brain damage rendering him mentally incompetent or something, IMO), then that indicates to me that all her characters are capable of undergoing great change if they make the choices necessary (or if something different happens to them that changes them, in the case of Voldemort), and it all starts with the first choice and/or the first event. The only caveat, is that there needs to be some conflicting competing desires within the character to put them at the choice crossroads, but since all of JKRs characters (barring Voldemort) apparently have had enough times where they had conflicting desires that put them at the choice crossroads, that makes something like "any character, barring Voldy, could be redeemed" be true, then it's just a matter of timing and writing that conflict believably to have them make that choice, and then you can send them in any direction you please, as a writer.

In other words, in HP canon, Lily wasn't fated to become who she was in canon, and Snape wasn't fated to become who he was in canon, it just happened to work out that way based upon the choices made in canon. So, using canon as the base, Lily could have had negative character growth that she didn't have in canon and visa versa, and Snape could have had positive character growth that he didn't have in canon and visa versa, if one takes it AU, even starting with one change because that one change could create a domino effect. It doesn't have to, if you don't want it to, because the whole point of characters having choice is that they could go either way, at some points.

So, the way I see it, with AU "what ifs": Up until the moment where it veers into AU, where the first change occurs, the characters are their canon selves as I see them. After the change, they may stay close to their canon counterparts, or they may change more, they may change a lot or a little, fast or slow, depending on what kind of fic I want to write and whether I can think of a plausible (IMO) way to write it that way, based on the starting point of their canon selves having made a different choice (which could inspire more different choices or not), and/or something different happening to them which gives them the opportunity or another opportunity to make a choice, that didn't happen in canon.

So, if I say "if I'm the writer and I'm going with my canon interp of Lily (aside from her issuing the ultimatum which is AU) in this AU" I'm going with what I think most likely if she's staying as close to otherwise doing what happened in canon as possible. That doesn't mean that I think her making a different choice beyond the initial ultimatum making choice is impossible for canon Lily, just that if I'm trying to stay as close to what happened in canon as possible, given the first AU change, I'll go with what is more likely for that.

I don't see canon Lily without conflict, I think she would be tempted to stay with Snape anyway (if she gave an ultimatum and he didn't change) because she's very attached to him as her best friend, IMO, so if I didn't mind her changing more (beyond the choice to level an ultimatum), she could choose to stay with Snape anyway and keep on staying and be a doormat. But that's a bummer, and I don't want to see that happen. It's not impossible for that to happen, but it needn't happen, so I'll go with that not happening, if I'm taking it AU.

Likewise, I don't see canon Snape without conflict, I think he had a conscience and deep down knew that what he'd been doing was wrong and that he shouldn't be doing it, but he was in denial and not listening to his conscience even though he felt some guilt and there was temptation to listen to it, IMO, so if I don't mind him changing, he could choose to give in to the temptation to pull that thread and listen to his conscience and then the sweater of denial he'd been knitting could unravel and he could start making better choices and become the kind of person Lily could fall in love with. That is more feel good than what happened in canon, and I'd like to see that happen (in a parallel AU, because canon is still interesting and good, even though it's a big bummer sometimes, and I like to have my cake and eat it too). It's not impossible for that to happen, and although it needn't happen, I'd like it to, so I'll capitalize on that possibility and have it happen, if I'm taking AU.

In other words, just as Lily didn't have to have the positive character growth that she had in canon, from certain points, and could have had negative growth instead, Snape didn't have to have to have the negative character growth he had in canon, from certain points, and could have had positive character growth instead. This is the principal that allows JKR to say "if Snape had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathsome people and acts", then "Lily might even have grown to love him romantically". JKR recognizes the possibilities of different choice, or there would be no "might", it either would or wouldn't happen. And likewise, Snape could have chosen to back off on the Dark Arts love (because love is ultimately a choice, it's not just something you feel) and could have decided to back away from such loathsome people and acts, and I think that if those things had happened before SWM, it wouldn't be too late for Lily to possibly fall in love with him. It just didn't happen to happen that way in canon.

Reading me so far?

Based on previous conversations we've had about Snape, I'd wager that we disagree on how much conflict Snape was in and/or how long that lasted, in canon. And I'd wager that we disagree on when it would be too late for Lily to possibly fall in love with him.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I would hope so, but it could also result in an unending series of "one more chance", even when Snape was parading his DE tattoo, if Lily was not the strong person she was in canon. The strong young woman who walked away the minute someone she had once trusted racially abused her.
Yep, IA it could result in that, if you decide to have Lily make more choices after that first choice like "not leaving after the first broken promise", and have her keep on heading that direction, then that would result in her not being as strong a person as she was in canon. Totally a possibility. Needn't happen, but could. Or you could capitalize on the possibility that she would leave after the first broken promise and have her continue to be or continue heading in the direction of her being as strong a person as she was in canon. (Although if you are going to do that, I don't see the point in taking it AU, unless you want to pile some additional angst on her.)

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
But if she had issued an ultimatum, how would she know whether he was truly developing morals, or whether he still hankered for the DE lifestyle and prejudice, just kept it in check while she was around? IMO, in canon, Lily saw this when it came to the apology "why should I be any different?" This may be why she didn't issue Snape with any ultimatum that day - why should she be singled out for apology, if it was fine to racially abuse other Muggleborns? In canon, Lily wanted people in her life who were completely and utterly as opposed to Voldemort as she was. Not people who wavered when it came to opposing torture and murder, not people who had to be persuaded that the genocidal campaign of the DEs was a bad thing. This is a young woman whose school career was overshadowed by Voldemort's war, by the crimes and fear of the first war. She couldn't afford to have people in her life who might be grudgingly against Voldemort, or grudgingly not supporting him. In canon, Lily wanted people whom she could trust to be fully and unflinchingly against Voldemort.

I think that pre-SWM, Lily was in denial about how far her friend had gone. I think that having lost her relationship with Petunia, she wanted to hold on to her friendship with Snape. I think that blinded her to the extent of the problem. Yes, she was hopeful that she could help him to see sense, but the racial slur wasn't a huge change in the problem - it was the problems that were there bubbling to the surface. The problem with Snape's DE goals didn't magically become worse in that instant - the problem was already there, this was just the problem becoming so blatant and so hurtful that Lily could no longer pretend that she could "fix" him and it.
The ultimatum AU that I was talking about, at that point in the conversation, was a pre-SWM ultimatum AU. So, as I said "Pre-SWM, Lily is apparently willing to trust that Snape can come to his senses and change (she seems to believe that he will, until SWM, even, seeing as she's still best friends with him) IMO, so if it's pre-SWM, then she's going to trust him if he agrees to change and apologizes for all the wrongdoing, if I'm the writer and I'm going with my canon interp of Lily (aside from her issuing the ultimatum which is AU) in this AU. If he doesn't follow through on his promise to change, if there isn't evidence of him following through, then that trust would be broken, and it would be splitsville after all. If there is evidence of him following through, then she continues to trust."

Post-SWM, I agree with you on why Lily didn't issue an ultimatum. Canon Snape could have possibly prevented that situation, even after SWM, by apologizing for all he needed to and promising to change, and then Lily may or may not have been willing to issue an ultimatum to give him another chance (making it a post-SWM ultimatum AU). In this situation, if she was willing to issue and ultimatum and give him another chance, trust would have to be rebuilt by Snape following through on his promises (ditching the DE crowd, standing up and fighting for what's right, never calling anyone Mudblood again, things like that), and after a long enough time, trust could be rebuilt and then Lily could trust that Snape had become willingly, genuinely, as opposed to Voldemort as she was and would never waver again on opposing torture and murder and whatnot. (I think Snape knew that genocide and murder and torture were wrong, he had just been willing to compromise his morals on that for power, in canon, since JKR said he was "an insecure, vulnerable person (like Wormtail) who craved membership of something big and powerful" not that he (and Wormtail) didn't have a conscience, and I think Snape was in some denial about just how bad the DEs were, although that denial would be replaced by further outright compromising of his morals as time went on and he witnessed more and more of what they were capable of...although I'm not sure that Snape ever allowed himself to think about the implications of how far the DEs would go, aka genocide, until after his Heel Face Turn, because he did have a conscience and he wanted that power that the DEs were offering him. I think Snape had to keep himself in a certain amount of denial to keep going with the DEs, because he did have a conscience that wasn't killed completely.)

I agree that pre-SWM Lily was in denial about how far her friend had gone (with the caveat that I'm pretty sure we disagree on how much internal conflict Snape was feeling at this point, and how much denial he was in, which would create some disagreement on just how far gone Snape was). And I agree about what happened with Petunia influencing her in that way. And I agree that the racial slur was a huge eye opener, and that Snape's DE goals didn't magically become worse in that instant, although he personally crossed a new moral event horizon in attacking Lily with a racial slur and became even more far gone than he was a moment before (and I think he had additional negative character growth when he decided not to think about the implications of him calling Lily a Mudblood when he didn't mean to and how that indicated how messed up he had gotten and how far from his old self he'd gotten, because he didn't want to admit how far he'd gone from his old self because he wanted that power the DEs were offering, and that made him even more far gone), and I agree that before SWM it hadn't yet become so blatant and so hurtful that Lily could no longer hope that she could help him and the situation (I disagree that she intended to try and fix him and the situation, because I think she had the sense to know that she didn't have that power. And I don't think she was pretending about there being hope to help him, only that she was pretending/in denial about how far he had fallen and how hard it would be to help him and she overestimated how much she could withstand, pre-SWM, not that she deep down thought it impossible, until SWM when she swung around to thinking "nope, I absolutely can't help after all, I can't withstand anymore of this" as well as no longer being able to deny how bad the situation had gotten in general, which was part of that swinging around along with having experienced the pain of a direct attack and realizing she could go no further after that).

In the pre-SWM ultimatum AU, if I'm writing it and capitalizing on the possibility of Snape follwing through on his promises to change, then Lily wouldn't reach her breaking point because she wouldn't have to experience a direct attack (or a refusal from Snape to change), and Snape would be having positive character growth and genuinely getting back on the good path, so from that point on that he decides to promise, he is no longer as far gone as he was in canon and is moving in a different direction than in canon, and Lily can either never have to know how close he got to becoming too far gone for her to help, or she could find out through him confessing in fit of guilt or something (about his DE aspirations, not about him calling her Mudblood since he didn't cross that line in this AU), and there could be some angst for that, but I think she would be glad that he was being totally honest with her and glad that he didn't actually go over the edge and focus on that, and as long as he promised to keep on going in the right direction she would trust that he would, and as long as he did as he promised and had genuine change and genuinely became the kind of person she could fall in love with and that was evidenced by him acting on his positive character growth, then she would be happy and continue to trust. And of course, I'd have to hang some big ol' lampshades about how lucky she was it worked out this way (that Snape decided to genuinely get his behind in gear) and that it was Snape's choice to change that made him change.

Although, if I'm going to seriously take it AU (actually write the AU fanfic), I think it best to start of with Snape making a better choice, before the ultimatum, and I like the challenge of taking him right to the brink of crossing that SWM moral event horizon, so I'd actually start off with a dues ex machina to delay SWM and create a new situation where Snape has a chance to choose Lily over his friends, not because she issued an ultimatum, but because they attack her directly and he has the chance to choose whether to do the right thing and side with her or continue on the bad path and not stand up to them, and then I could have him make a better choice than he would if I was keeping him as close to canon as possible, and then I'd be capitalizing on his internal conflict between wanting to protect Lily and wanting to stay in good with DE crowd and I'd have him choose Lily, and that would be the start of more good choices and threads of denial being pulled and unraveled, and I could have Lily make an ultimatum that he needs to drop his friends entirely after they attacked her, and that could be the second better choice he makes, with she and him having a long talk about morals and whatnot with Snape confessing that he knows he was wrong and needs to change, and then he'd follow through on that, and on it would go. Change one thing, and you can create a domino effect in any direction you like, provided you time it right and set it up right, IMO, with the caveat that the reader would have to share the writer's canon interp (or close enough in the area in question) in order for the setup to be believable to them, or be willing to suspend disbelief.

Hopefully I've managed to explain myself well here, since it can get confusing when talking about multiple possibilities/multiple AUs and canon interp, all at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorlum
If I'm the writer, and I'm having Snape carry on like he did in canon according to my interp, then I'd wager that Snape would try and hold on to both Lily and the DE dream (he wouldn't agree to change and would try and get Lily to take back the ultimatum, or something like that) and Lily would drop him right then and there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
If we are talking about the canon characters, as written by JKR, with their canon personalities, that is what I see happening if canon-Lily had given canon-Snape an ultimatum.
Well, technically, Lily would no longer be as JKR wrote her, no longer be totally canon, since JKR didn't have her do that, but I think we are both talking about "if we are having Lily carry on like she did in canon according to our interp (aside from the ultimatum issuing)", here. Calling her canon-Lily in an AU where she makes a different choice just doesn't jibe semantically for me. I think we are both on the same page, other than semantics, here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
It was very clear, but I didn't want to seem accusatory by point blank saying that the posts were AU/fanfic.
Well, technically, the posts were about AU/fanfic possibilities, but I have run across some people who get their AU/fic possibilities confused with canon, and would be insulted to have them called AU/fic things, so I understand your caution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
No, it would not be canon, I agree. However, speaking about the canon characters, and the decisions they could have made, if canon-Lily had chosen to forgive canon-Snape, and if he had dropped his DE friends to stay in her good books, Lily would have been his only reason, making her an emotional crutch. I am talking about AU in terms of decisions they could have made, but I am trying to stay with the canon characters as I see them, not an AU version of the characters, with somewhat different personalities and moral codes.
The canon characters could have developed somewhat different personalities and moral codes, from this point though, couldn't they? I understand you don't want to take them in that direction, but it's possible, right, since the HP universe has free will and they weren't fated to make particular choices?

And if canon Lily is going to deviate from "carrying on like she did canon" to make an ultimatum and canon Snape is going to deviate from "carrying on like he did in canon" to drop his DE friends [only] to stay in her good books, then they are already deviating from how we see them in canon cause they didn't do that in canon, right? They just aren't deviating as much (or it's temporary), as if we capitalize on a possibility for character growth to flow from those AU choices.

And I would agree that if Snape dropped his DE friends only to stay in Lily's good books, and never moved beyond that, she would become an emotional crutch. But...It's likely, according to my interp, that if Snape's going to drop them for Lily, then he'd cave to the temptation to pull that thread on his "sweater of denial" about how bad a path he was heading down and what kind of destruction it would have led him to, since the motivation for keeping his conscience down was because he wanted that power the DEs were offering, and he was now giving that power up (and going to face the consequences of being a blood-traitor at best, which would reduce the social power he already had), so he no longer had that motivation to keep his conscience down and not pull that thread, and once he pulled that thread, he'd see the light and positive character growth would ensue, to a certain extent at least, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Yes, she tried to talk some sense to him. But when he racially abused her, she realised that her concerns were falling on wilfully deaf ears. IMO, this was the moment when Lily realised that she could no longer trust him. IMO, Lily felt that this was someone who did not respect her, and someone she could no longer deny was choosing to be on the other side of the war.
Ah, I see you were talking about post-SWM, then. Yes, I agree, then (with the addition of I'd say she realized he didn't respect her enough, I'm not sure she thought he didn't respect her at all, but not enough, definitely not enough, IMO).


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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking.
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Old April 27th, 2014, 4:26 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

What is "AU?"


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