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Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3



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  #1  
Old October 31st, 2012, 6:52 am
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Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Time for the third version. Version 2 is here:Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis

And the starting questions of v. 2 were:
  1. Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
  2. Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
  3. Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
  4. According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
  5. Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?


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  #2  
Old October 31st, 2012, 11:18 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

From the second version:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoddessClio
It's not like James levicorpus'd Snape and Lily agreed to go out with him while Snape was dangling over their heads. James had a year plus a couple months between SWM and the earliest time he and Lily could have begun dating if you assume they began dating immediately upon the start of their seventh year. Who knows what happened during their sixth year?! The war could have escalated to catastrophic levels of horribleness causing James to sort of wake up and smell the maturity roses. One or both of his parents could have died - that'd change him. He could have experienced some aspect of the war in some way that would cause him to realize that he's being infantile and putting his efforts into the wrong things (being a bullying jerk) and he needs to get his act together if he wants to make a positive difference in the war efforts. There's a great number of things, IMO, that could get James to grow up to a point where Lily would consider dating him, let alone actual do it.
Maybe. However, it's not like Lily waited a long time after SWM to finally go out with James. If they had dated a few years after and if James showed that he changed in a radical way then that would be different, IMO. Since we aren't shown what happened we can only go by what we do know.

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I would agree in the sense that I don't think she went around thinking "hmm, Georgie hasn't volunteered to join the Ministry Militia yet, I don't think i'll go out with him, but Tony has so maybe I'll take him to Hogsmeade next weekend," or whatever but I do absolutely think that a war of the caliber we are led to believe it was (a big, bad, racially charged one) that would have seriously affected not only herself but her family as well would have influenced her, if only in helping her to solidify her values and to decide not to associate with those who diametrically opposed those values, such as Snape appeared to do.
I agree that she would never date a future DE, what I was saying was that just because someone isn't a DE or into the dark arts is not reason enough to go out with them or assume they are a decent person. James was a decent person, but not at that time, IMO.

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There's a big difference between putting the cruciatus curse on someone and making bats fly out of their nose, though. Man, how I wish this James v. Snape thing wasn't off the table because I so badly want to say more!!
You could owl me if you want to discuss this further but what I will say here is this: I would rather have someone perform the cruciatus on me than undress me in public in front of all my classmates. That's not to say the Dark arts or people who use them aren't the worst kind of evil, though.

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You have to take everyone's principles with a grain of salt to some respect because we all have different experiences in life.
I agree to a certain extent but I can respect people's principles even if I don't hold them. I respect Lily for breaking up with Snape. I don't respect the way she dated a guy whom she had seen harrassing one of her friends only a year after the incident. That doesn't make her a bad person, of course not, but I don't think she has such a moral highground as she is usually given in fandom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow
Lily never endorsed bullying-- in fact, I felt she clearly stated that she did not like that behavior-- and I do not see dating someone years after the incident as somehow endorsing it.
According to Sirius, James still did it even then he just hid it from Lily. We don't know whether or not she knew and only pretended not to because at the time she had broken up with Snape and really liked James and his friends.


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Old October 31st, 2012, 8:31 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
[list=1][*] Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
I think it gave Lily one and only one, biased view on the magical world before she went to Hogwarts. IMO, when Lily started Hogwarts, she started to get other perspectives - she had other viewpoints, other angles to look at things from. IMO, this was much healthier for Lily, and I think it was a good thing that she was able to get information from more than one source. That she made up her own mind rather than being expected to blindly follow the views of one other person.

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[*] Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I think Petunia could have grown up a bit.

Or maybe Lily could have apologised for being a witch, because that really was Petunia's problem. With Petunia, Lily was despised for daring to be a witch; in the wizarding world, the thugs despised her for having Muggle heritage. I don't think she should be expected to apologise or feel guilty for either.

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[*] Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
I don't think we know anything about Lily's friends at Hogwarts. IMO, we at least know that they would have been people who shared her values - as they advised her against associating with Death Eater wannabes.

IMO, Lily would have been friendly with a lot of people, but only really close to a small number. This is just my perception - Lily was kind to others, and stood up for people who needed it. This suggests that she would have been friendly with a lot of people. However, I think she may have had only a few close friends that she confided in.

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[*] According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
IMO, it says that she did not let other people dictate to her. Her friends were against her friendship with a DE wannabe, because they weren't blinded by the ties of old friendship. Lily held fast to her friendship with Snape, despite her friends' objections. Until he threw everything back in her face and told her she was scum.

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[*]Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
For all we know, Lily forgave Snape before her death. I doubt she spent the last six years of her short life holding on to the anger about a former friend stabbing her in the back. IMO, she let go of the anger and moved on. Forgiveness does not mean taking someone you can no longer trust back into your life. Forgiveness does not mean taking foolish risks with the safety of your family. Forgiveness does not mean associating with terrorists out of a misguided idea that forgiveness makes them magically trustworthy or good. Forgiveness does not mean the offender has done anything right.

It seems to me that this question is more about Lily letting Snape back in her life, than Lily "forgiving" Snape, and I see a difference between the two. IMO, as long as the war lasted, Lily would not have wanted a Death Eater in her life. After the war, I doubt she would have wanted a Death Eater in her life, either. How could she trust such a person? How could she want someone in her life who resented her happiness and the existence of her child? Lily was not that kind of person, IMO. If Lily had survived, but lost James and Harry, there would be no forgiveness, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Maybe. However, it's not like Lily waited a long time after SWM to finally go out with James. If they had dated a few years after and if James showed that he changed in a radical way then that would be different, IMO. Since we aren't shown what happened we can only go by what we do know.

After SWM, Lily was no longer influenced in any way by the opinions of a prejudiced wannabe terrorist. IMO, she no longer had a reason to take his views into consideration - not when he saw her as a "filthy little mudblood".

James' parents died - that may have caused him to mature rapidly, and it may have happened during his sixth year. And as James was made Head Boy, I think he did change a lot over his sixth year.

Quote:
I agree that she would never date a future DE, what I was saying was that just because someone isn't a DE or into the dark arts is not reason enough to go out with them or assume they are a decent person. James was a decent person, but not at that time, IMO.
I wouldn't say that someone is a good person just because they are opposed to Voldemort. However, I do say the reverse - if someone is/wants to be a Death Eater, IMO, they are certainly not a good person. Lily would not want to associate with such criminals. IMO, she chose the people in her life from among the "I don't like Voldemort and his evil cronies" section of the population. It's like me saying "I would never associate with people involved in terrorism or organised crime". That doesn't mean that I would associate with everyone who isn't a terrorist or organised crime member. Just that it's a basic prerequisite. And I think that for Lily, and anyone with a conscience in the wizarding world, "not a Death Eater" was a pretty basic prerequisite.

Quote:
You could owl me if you want to discuss this further but what I will say here is this: I would rather have someone perform the cruciatus on me than undress me in public in front of all my classmates. That's not to say the Dark arts or people who use them aren't the worst kind of evil, though.
I don't think Frank and Alice Longbottom would agree with that.


Quote:
I agree to a certain extent but I can respect people's principles even if I don't hold them. I respect Lily for breaking up with Snape. I don't respect the way she dated a guy whom she had seen harrassing one of her friends only a year after the incident. That doesn't make her a bad person, of course not, but I don't think she has such a moral highground as she is usually given in fandom.

IMO, Lily had a lot more insight into the rivalry than the reader does. Lily saw seven years of interaction, and IMO, she would have seen that it was not one-sided, that it was not a case of a blameless innocent and the horrible Marauders.


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Old November 1st, 2012, 4:23 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
After SWM, Lily was no longer influenced in any way by the opinions of a prejudiced wannabe terrorist. IMO, she no longer had a reason to take his views into consideration - not when he saw her as a "filthy little mudblood".
It seemed to me like she had formed her own opinion on James even without Snape's influence. I'm sure Snape tried his hardest to paint James in a negative light to Lily but she saw with her own eyes what James and the others Marauders did to Snape.

Quote:
James' parents died - that may have caused him to mature rapidly, and it may have happened during his sixth year. And as James was made Head Boy, I think he did change a lot over his sixth year.
Well, Tom Riddle was Head Boy as well so I don't think that says much about how decent a person is. It says something about their brains, charisma and magical prowess but not much else, the way I see it.

Quote:
And I think that for Lily, and anyone with a conscience in the wizarding world, "not a Death Eater" was a pretty basic prerequisite.
Absolutely. I don't think it should be any other way. My point was rather that just because someone is opposed to the DEs and their dark arts doesn't mean they aren't hurting people in a different way.

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I don't think Frank and Alice Longbottom would agree with that.
Well, of course I wasn't referring to torture to that extent nor was I comparing James to the Death Eaters. But bullying is a serious issue, IMO. Young people take their lives because they are bullied too much in school. I'm not trying to bring real life into this, just explaining why to me being a bully is not some trivial childish thing that you can snap out of one year later and be perfectly decent. I understand that the rivarly wasn't one sided but I still think it's disturbing how James seemed to enjoy causing harm and public humiliation to a person because "he exists".

Back to Lily, that's not to say I think Lily secretly approved of the bullying (even though some fans have claimed this). It's not a bad thing that she gave James a second chance either. The problem is that it raises questions in regards to her principles, at least in my eyes. I think she is supposed to represent good morals and principles in the story as well as the strength to live according to these principles. This characterization of her succeeds to a certain extent. However, it does make me wonder whether Lily did give up a part of her principles because she met someone attractive enough to her that it was worth doing so.


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Old November 1st, 2012, 5:20 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
I agree that she would never date a future DE, what I was saying was that just because someone isn't a DE or into the dark arts is not reason enough to go out with them or assume they are a decent person. James was a decent person, but not at that time, IMO.
I agree with the statement that just because you're not a Death Eater doesn't automatically mean you're a decent person, but the point I'm trying to make is the point you made in your previous statement in your reply to me: "we can only go by what we do know" and what we do know is that James became a "decent"-enough person between the end of his fifth year and an unknown date in his seventh year because Lily agreed to go out with him.

I think it's really important to remember that what we do know:

James changed fast enough and in such a way as to get Lily to date him during their seventh year. What we don't know is how, why and in what ways he performed this change and exactly the time frame. We don't know, for instance, whether James and Lily began dating September 2nd of their seventh year or May 2nd of their seventh year, all we know is Sirius said they started dating during their seventh year and that they formed a close enough and strong enough bond for their relationship to continue past the end of school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
I respect Lily for breaking up with Snape. I don't respect the way she dated a guy whom she had seen harrassing one of her friends only a year after the incident. That doesn't make her a bad person, of course not, but I don't think she has such a moral highground as she is usually given in fandom.
This is a moot point of discussion to me as I'm not a fan who thinks of Lily as a perfect person with perfect morals and values and I don't think she occupies the moral highground.

And as far as Lily dating her former best friend's bully, I think of it as a situation where she was allowing James the benefit of the doubt because she probably never sat down and had the conversation with him about what was going on between him and Snape. Once she heard James's side of the argument, his version of events she might have not felt so sympathetic toward Snape and not feel as bad about dating James. She likely only ever got Snape's version of events and Snape, whom I think suspected that Lily had a crush on James from about fifth year, possibly even earlier, had an enormous incentive to bad-mouth James and make him look as bad as possible so Lily wouldn't give in to temptation or whatever and be seduced away from her friendship with Snape by Snape's worst enemy in school.

In addition, by the time Lily began dating James, she had no reason to feel any loyalty to Snape. They'd have been "broken up" for over a year and Lily could have spent all that time resenting that she ever allowed Snape to dupe her into being friends with him and dating James could have been a sort of revenge tactic for her and it just turned into a good relationship for them in the end, who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
According to Sirius, James still did it even then he just hid it from Lily.
And also according to Sirius, Snape never missed an opportunity to jinx James whenever he could - and Lily might not have known about all that. It goes both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
I'm sure Snape tried his hardest to paint James in a negative light to Lily but she saw with her own eyes what James and the others Marauders did to Snape.
And she heard all about how James saved Snape's life the night we went down the Whomping Willow's tunnel. An indecent, hateful bully wouldn't have done that, IMO. That would have proven in some sense that James was a decent person at heart at the same time that he was being a massive, bullying jerk; James saved Snape's life before SWM. That may have been a turning point in how Lily viewed James and that could have been the germination of his road to maturity that took... the next year and a half to two years (depending on exact dates of things...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Well, Tom Riddle was Head Boy as well so I don't think that says much about how decent a person is. It says something about their brains, charisma and magical prowess but not much else, the way I see it.
Dumbledore wasn't headmaster when Tom Riddle was appointed Head Boy, though. It's been my impression that Head Boy and Head Girl are picked by the headmaster of Hogwarts and chose people he (or she) thought would serve the school best or had characteristic they themselves valued (but I admit this isn't exactly supported by canon as we don't know how Heads or Prefects are chosen - by the headmaster alone? by the headmaster and heads of house by consensus? do the heads of house nominate students and the headmaster chooses from that list or can he choose any student he wants?). IMO, Tom Riddle was made Head Boy because he duped Armando Dippet into believing he was a good person, not because he was in all actuality the best choice for head boy. Tom Riddle seemed to be a master as making people believe what Tom wanted them to believe about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
Back to Lily, that's not to say I think Lily secretly approved of the bullying (even though some fans have claimed this). It's not a bad thing that she gave James a second chance either. The problem is that it raises questions in regards to her principles, at least in my eyes. I think she is supposed to represent good morals and principles in the story as well as the strength to live according to these principles. This characterization of her succeeds to a certain extent. However, it does make me wonder whether Lily did give up a part of her principles because she met someone attractive enough to her that it was worth doing so.
I don't think that Lily beginning to date James means that she was sacrificing her principles because there was that year in between James's last reader-witnessed bullying of Snape and the earliest time she and James could have begun dating. Do I believe that SWM was it for James and bullying? No, I don't. Do I think Lily approved of James being a bully? No, I don't. What I do think, though, is that she had her entire sixth year to get to know and understand James's personality without Snape whispering into her ear and without Snape's influence turning her opinion of James she could have formed more of her own opinion about him. I think a lot of the issues James and Lily had in their first five years of school were born from the fact that they probably didn't know very much about each other or where they came from or the values each others' parents were trying to instill in them. Lily, after all, knew all about Snape's background, his family history and problems and how he got to be the way he was so she could sympathize with his position more than she could with James's; if she had the same level of understanding regarding how James was raised and how he got to be the person he was, would she not have an increased amount of understanding for how James approaches and handles/mishandles problems? I think she got that understanding during her sixth year which led, in part, to her choice to date him in their seventh year.


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Old November 1st, 2012, 8:37 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
It seemed to me like she had formed her own opinion on James even without Snape's influence. I'm sure Snape tried his hardest to paint James in a negative light to Lily but she saw with her own eyes what James and the others Marauders did to Snape.
She also saw with her own eyes both sides of the story. She wasn't so gullible as to think that Snape was an innocent who wouldn't dream of cursing the Marauders if the oportunity arose.


Quote:
Well, Tom Riddle was Head Boy as well so I don't think that says much about how decent a person is. It says something about their brains, charisma and magical prowess but not much else, the way I see it.
Tom Riddle was appointed by Armando Dippet. James was appointed by Dumbledore. IMO, Dumbledore wanted Heads like James and Lily to set a good example in wartime - people strong enough and willing enough to openly oppose the evil that was infesting Hogwarts as well as the rest of the wizarding world. He needed good leaders that other students could look up to - IMO, that's a big part of why he chose Lily and James as Heads.


Quote:
Well, of course I wasn't referring to torture to that extent nor was I comparing James to the Death Eaters. But bullying is a serious issue, IMO. Young people take their lives because they are bullied too much in school. I'm not trying to bring real life into this, just explaining why to me being a bully is not some trivial childish thing that you can snap out of one year later and be perfectly decent. I understand that the rivarly wasn't one sided but I still think it's disturbing how James seemed to enjoy causing harm and public humiliation to a person because "he exists".

That may not have been James' true reason for his actions that day - he may have been trying to get back at Snape for trying to expose Remus, and he could hardly announce that as his reason in front og the whole fifth year.

Quote:
Back to Lily, that's not to say I think Lily secretly approved of the bullying (even though some fans have claimed this). It's not a bad thing that she gave James a second chance either. The problem is that it raises questions in regards to her principles, at least in my eyes. I think she is supposed to represent good morals and principles in the story as well as the strength to live according to these principles. This characterization of her succeeds to a certain extent. However, it does make me wonder whether Lily did give up a part of her principles because she met someone attractive enough to her that it was worth doing so.
I don't think Lily gave up her principles. This is a girl who ended her oldest friendship for her principles. IMO, she and James shared principles and values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
And as far as Lily dating her former best friend's bully, I think of it as a situation where she was allowing James the benefit of the doubt because she probably never sat down and had the conversation with him about what was going on between him and Snape. Once she heard James's side of the argument, his version of events she might have not felt so sympathetic toward Snape and not feel as bad about dating James. She likely only ever got Snape's version of events and Snape, whom I think suspected that Lily had a crush on James from about fifth year, possibly even earlier, had an enormous incentive to bad-mouth James and make him look as bad as possible so Lily wouldn't give in to temptation or whatever and be seduced away from her friendship with Snape by Snape's worst enemy in school.
That's a good point. After that friendship ended, Lily had an opportunity to look at the other side of the story. To see that this was a two-sided conflict, and wasn't as black and white as Snape may have claimed it to be.

Quote:
In addition, by the time Lily began dating James, she had no reason to feel any loyalty to Snape. They'd have been "broken up" for over a year and Lily could have spent all that time resenting that she ever allowed Snape to dupe her into being friends with him and dating James could have been a sort of revenge tactic for her and it just turned into a good relationship for them in the end, who knows?
Agree. IMO, it would be sad, foolish and dangerous of Lily to feel loyalty towards a DE wannabe who considered her a mudblood. I don't think Lily was that kind of doormat.


Quote:
And also according to Sirius, Snape never missed an opportunity to jinx James whenever he could - and Lily might not have known about all that. It goes both ways.
Agree. This was a two-sided conflict. And if Lily did not know or want to know that before she ended the friendship, she may have been more open to seeing both sides of the story after that.


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Old November 1st, 2012, 11:57 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Lily's relationship with Snape went back a longer time than most people realised. He was her first contact with the magical world. How did this impact on Lily and her relationship with the magical world and Hogwarts?
Lily would not have the shock that most muggleborns have when they receive their letter. She would have already known. However, her views would have been based soley on what Snape had told her. It seems that he ignored the prejudice Lily would come accross at Hogwarts since he saw her as an exception. I'm sure that learning about the prejudice would have been horrible for her. But she would have been able to create her own view and opinion of the wizarding world when she went to Hogwarts.

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Could anything have been done by Lily or Petunia to repair their relationship given what we've seen of them as children?
I would have liked to think that something could have been done. They seemed very close as children. However, as Petunia grew so did her envy and she became cold and bitter. Lily tried but I think Petunia rejected her. If Petunia tried to reconcile I'm sure Lily would be more than happy to do too. But Petunia seems to bitter. IT's really sad.

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Based on the few things we know about Lily, what sort of friends did she have at Hogwarts.
She would have had a few close friends, such as the group of girls by the lake. She was popular and it was clear that everyone liked her. Other boys liked her apart from James and Snape. She was most likely friendly with everyone who shared her views and values. She obviously would not get on with those prejudiced against people liker her. I always thought her friends were Marlene McKinnon and Mary MacDonald. In her letter to Sirius she was really upset about her death. Mary was also mentioned in Snape's memories. It is possible Alice Longbottom could have been her friend but I think that since they had to go through Auror training to become an Auror she might be older than Lily and possibly friends after school when they joined the Order. There are also people like Dorcas Meadows, Hestia Jones and Emmelene Vance who could have been friends with her; if not in school in the Order. Hagrid got photos from Lily and James friends so it could have been them. And on the last thread it was discussed why none of her friends contacted Harry.

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According to Lily her friends couldn't understand why she gave Snape the time of day ~ what does this say about her character and the friendships that she had with other people?
It says that she does not allow people to influence her and that she valued her friendship with Snape so much that she continued the friendship even when others were against it. Lily seemed liked by many and her friends were worried about her since they viewed Snape negatively.

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Lily chose not to forgive Snape for calling her "mudblood" - why was this the last straw for her? Do you think she would have reconsidered this decision had she lived?
Her friendship with Snape was on the rocks from since before. It seemed like she made a lot of excuses to others and herself to maintain the friendship. The last straw was that slur which hurt her as it came from someone she considered a friend and humiliated her since it showed her what her friends were saying to her were true about Snape.

Her relationship with Snape and Petunia both seemed like lost causes. But she did not really give up easily and in the process got hurt. No wonder her wand implied she was insecure. It may be a reason why she was hesitant to begin a relationship with James other than the whole maturing factor.


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Old November 2nd, 2012, 4:21 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
It seemed to me like she had formed her own opinion on James even without Snape's influence. I'm sure Snape tried his hardest to paint James in a negative light to Lily but she saw with her own eyes what James and the others Marauders did to Snape.
I agree. Lily was able to see view both sides from the beginning. She also shared a Common Room and all of her classes with James.

Quote:
Well, Tom Riddle was Head Boy as well so I don't think that says much about how decent a person is. It says something about their brains, charisma and magical prowess but not much else, the way I see it.
As was Percy Weasley. Percy wasn't a bad kid, but he was the type who enjoyed taking charge, i think. I suspect he was also intelligent and top of his class. I see Lily much the same way.

Quote:
Back to Lily, that's not to say I think Lily secretly approved of the bullying (even though some fans have claimed this). It's not a bad thing that she gave James a second chance either. The problem is that it raises questions in regards to her principles, at least in my eyes. I think she is supposed to represent good morals and principles in the story as well as the strength to live according to these principles. This characterization of her succeeds to a certain extent. However, it does make me wonder whether Lily did give up a part of her principles because she met someone attractive enough to her that it was worth doing so.
I suspect Lily knew James quite well and knew that he hexed many students, most of it probably one-sided, including Bertram Aubrey and a large list of kids Harry copied down during his detentions he received because he himself hexed Draco. I also suspect she did not approve, and knew how wrong it was to hex and bully other human beings, and maybe James did stop most of it and hid the rest so she'd give him a chance. I think they're a good match. Both are impulsive and hot-headded (JRK said in a recent interview these were common Gryffindor traits, and I think it applies here), both were smart and good looking and popular. I always saw them as a good fit, even if the match did appear to happen rather quickly.


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  #9  
Old November 2nd, 2012, 5:54 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

I....I....I'm afraid I'm at a loss here. First, it should be noted that Lily didn't cut off all contact with him after SWM. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but bear with me. It seems reasonable to assume that Slughorn didn't begin teaching advanced Potions to his students until after OWLs and SWM is in OWL week. Slughorn remembers Lily as exceptionally gifted at Poitions, even NEWT level Potions. I have no doubt she had a fertile mind and that she could grasp the subject, but the fact that Slughorn sees Harry's approach to Potions as similar to Lily's leads me to posit the following theory.

1. Lily was good at Potions, perhaps gifted with positive reinforcement, but she worked with a prodigy...no prizes for guessing who I mean.

2. After the OWL fiasco, Snape and Lily still had classes together including DADA, Charms, and Potions. In an effort to stay close to her, Snape tracked her down after multiple attempts and begged her to partner with him in Potions. She refused to see him outside of class, but relented that far.

3. In an effort, to win her trust, to make up for that terrible sentence, he let her in. He showed her all the aternatives, shortcuts, and improvements he discovered. She listened, she learned, she commented, and occasionally helped.

After being humiliated and heartbroken, Snape redoubled his efforts to..in his eyes...unmask and shame James Potter, Sirius Black, and their hangers-on. Hence, the Shrieking Shack incident. In his experience of the Marauders, James was the leader and schemer; Sirus was the partner and principal ally; Remus passively participated or allowed things to happen because he was so happy to have friends; and Peter was the sycophant. If there was a plan, it had to be James' plan. Every plan they ever had was James' plan. Why would The Prank be any different? In this, of course, he was crucially mistaken, but bitter previous experience had set his opinions of the Marauders and their roles in stone. Instead of finally gaining the upper hand on James and showing his true colors to Lily, he was forced to keep Remus' secret and be viewed as having a blood debt to James (who he was sure was actually in on The Prank even if Dumbledore didn't believe it).

His experiments with dark hexes and charms grew more insidious, and he began displaying some of them to his fellow Slytherins, who admired his genius, even if they didn't like him personally. He became The Half-Blood Prince, rather like a young Lord Voldemort without the charm.

Over their last two years in school, Lily observed his handiwork and began to counter it with some of her own. Remember that countercharm in song that Snape used to save Draco? Does that really seem like his style of spell?

Anyway, more later.


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Old November 2nd, 2012, 8:12 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by jordmundt6 View Post
I....I....I'm afraid I'm at a loss here. First, it should be noted that Lily didn't cut off all contact with him after SWM.
We don't know the particulars about how much contact Lily and Snape had after the apology memory in the Prince's Tale. I, at least, am not confident enough to say with 100% certainty that "Lily didn't cut off all contact with" Snape. She could have since she was clearly upset with him but we honestly don't know that much about her personality (beyond standard Gryffindor traits and they quirks shown us in TPT memories) to say whether she absolutely did or didn't cut off all contact with him.

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2. After the OWL fiasco, Snape and Lily still had classes together including DADA, Charms, and Potions.
O.W.L.s are held at the end of the year, though. They are the final exams of fifth year and the culminating exams for the previous five years of study... aren't they? After O.W.L.s the kids would be sent home, not back to class for another three months.

Or are you refering to the classes they would share in sixth and seventh years?

Quote:
In an effort to stay close to her, Snape tracked her down after multiple attempts and begged her to partner with him in Potions. She refused to see him outside of class, but relented that far.
... I'm so confused. Where did you get this information? Or is this your own theory of what happened?

Quote:
3. In an effort, to win her trust, to make up for that terrible sentence, he let her in. He showed her all the aternatives, shortcuts, and improvements he discovered. She listened, she learned, she commented, and occasionally helped.
... Again, really confused. Snape and Lily were friends from before Hogwarts so they had at five years to study potions together. Snape offering to teach Lily about potions after he insulted her in SWM makes no sense to me...

Quote:
It seems reasonable to assume that Slughorn didn't begin teaching advanced Potions to his students until after OWLs and SWM is in OWL week. Slughorn remembers Lily as exceptionally gifted at Poitions, even NEWT level Potions.
True that Slughorn wouldn't have begun teaching "advanced" potions to students until the higher grades, but he would have had Lily in all of his potions classes since, as we have no canon information of a second potions teacher lurking around the castle, he taught all potions lessons to all students in all grades. Slughorn would have met Lily and begun teachinger her when she was 11 and had 7 years worth of potions classes with which to base his high opinion of her talents on.

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After being humiliated and heartbroken, Snape redoubled his efforts to..in his eyes...unmask and shame James Potter, Sirius Black, and their hangers-on. Hence, the Shrieking Shack incident.
This (and the rest of your paragraph) isn't related to Lily so I'll leave that alone except to point out that the timeline most likely had Snape discovering Remus's secret before SWM (which occured during O.W.L. exams and was therefore the end of the year).

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Over their last two years in school, Lily observed his handiwork and began to counter it with some of her own. Remember that countercharm in song that Snape used to save Draco? Does that really seem like his style of spell?
You're suggesting that Lily was the one who came up with the countercharm for Sectumsempra?


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Old November 3rd, 2012, 1:40 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

I think Lily wold be too hurt and upset to be around Snape after SWM. They probably saw each other in the hallways and held each other's gaze a while then lt go. Maybe Snape tried to aproach her but I bet she'd shut him down.

Lily coming up with the counter curse for sectumsempra is possible but I always assumed it was Snape. He developed the curse. It is not shown in canon if she helped him. I don't really believe she would want anything to do with such a spell since its considered dark. We don't even know if she knew that Snape created such a spell. She accused his friends of using dark magic but not him really. Its the marauders, specifically Sirius who accused Snape of dark magic.


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Old November 3rd, 2012, 2:02 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by jordmundt6 View Post
Over their last two years in school, Lily observed his handiwork and began to counter it with some of her own. Remember that countercharm in song that Snape used to save Draco? Does that really seem like his style of spell?
We aren't shown anywhere in the books that Lily ever created her own spells or countercharms, so I don't think it was her. I do agree that it doesn't sound like one of Snape's, though. Snape was interested in the Dark Arts and witches and wizards have been cut and wounded since the dawn of time (just like muggles) and it reminded me of an old healing spell and I thought he read about it in some old book and mastered it in case something went wrong with Sectumsempra.


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  #13  
Old November 3rd, 2012, 9:47 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

I think Snape would definitely be aware of the possibility that his spells can be used against him. I think he would have developed a counter-charm for it himself. He knew a lot about dealing with the effects of it so I don't think Lily had anything to do with it. I think it highly unlikely that he'd go to Lily for something like that in the first place.


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Old November 3rd, 2012, 10:10 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Yeah, seeing how Snape's own Levicorpus got used against him it makes sense he'd work on counter-curses.


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Old November 4th, 2012, 1:06 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Just a reminder - this thread is about Lily -not Snape. He has his own thread.


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  #16  
Old November 5th, 2012, 12:07 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Lily could have created spells but I don't see her wanting anything to do with Sectumsempra. I doubt she even knew of it since her friendship with Snape was falling apart and he knew she would not like knowing he created something like sectumsempra.

I admire Lily for never giving up despite her insecurities and the hardships she had to face from her sister and being called a mudblood by her best friend. She still tried to he best of her ability to reach out to the both of them. That's one of the things Harry got from her.


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Old March 7th, 2013, 5:54 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I disagree, also, with the statement that Lily seems to genuinely dislike James until he matured. I admit that this is entirely my opinion and interpretation of the book but the two things that I think show that she had an interest in James, and likely a romantic interest at that, are the scene where she and Snape are talking in TPT and Snape points out something about James that makes Lily blush or avert her eyes (something about James/the marauders being "wonderful") which indicated to me that Lily did think that James was wonderful; . . .
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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
There's that, and the fact that Snape felt the need to try and convince Lily that James wasn't great in the first place. If Lily hated James, she wouldn't keep it secret from her James-hating friend. So when Snape said "I'm just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are", I read it as an implied accusation of liking James, which then made Lily blush and jump to defend James, as though to justify her feelings.
I'm not sure that Lily's blush is being accurately portrayed here:
DH: TPT“I know your theory,” said Lily, and she sounded cold. “Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?”

“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”

The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
The text indicates that the intensity of Snape's gaze made Lily blush, not what he said about the Marauders. And note that Snape says "them" and not "him", so I don't think this involves Lily's feelings for James at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
. . . the other is Lily's odd inclination to smile during SWM - was she smiling at James using Snapes own spell against him? Was she at least partially amused by Snape's predicament showing that she might already be making a transition over to James's side by the end of their 5th year?
That odd smile does seem significant to me and probably indicates several things, one of which is her separating herself from Snape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
Going from blind loathing to blind love over the span of one year, IMO, is unrealistic to say the least so, to me, the more likely rationale for how James and Lily came to begin dating in their 7th year had to do with Lily already having romantic feelings towards James (possibly for only their sixth year, possibly for longer) but that James was always screwing it up to some extent until, perhaps, the end of their sixth year which laid the groundwork for Lily to be open to dating James when they returned for their 7th.
If not romantic feelings, then at least a definite easing of the loathsome feelings she had for James. But I agree. I don't see Lily, nearly overnight, changing the way she felt about James.


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Old March 7th, 2013, 8:02 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
That odd smile does seem significant to me and probably indicates several things, one of which is her separating herself from Snape.
Or, if she knew that Levicorpus was Snape's own spell, perhaps she gave that almost-smile at the irony of it. Especially if she had criticised the spell and Snape ignored her or brushed it off.

I don't see the almost-smile as Lily indicating that she wanted to separate herself from Snape. She was fooling herself about Snape for a long time, IMO, until she could no longer deny the path he had chosen, until he racially abused her. I see no indication that she wanted to end the friendship until he demeaned her like that. IMO, Lily tried to hold on to the friendship, even when Snape was hanging out with DE wannabes who would gladly see Muggleborns oppressed murdered.


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Old May 22nd, 2013, 6:19 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Interesting point which arose on the Snape thread:

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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
In my opinion there's a world of difference between agape love--which IMO is the kind of love Lily showed when she sacrificed herself to try to stop Voldemort from killing baby Harry--and the love that even a decent young man would show to his teenaged friend, the friend who fears his Housemates because of the things they do to other Muggleborn students. As far as I can see, Snape showed neither of those kinds of love; saintly or less than saintly.
I am not sure that Lily's love for Harry is agape. That is not to denigrate her love for Harry in any way. She was a brave young woman who was willing to die in her child's stead. But agape means, in religious terms, the love of God for humanity or the love someone may show to another person who doesn't deserve it, or in secular terms, "an intentional response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being." In other words, when you show love to someone who hates you, you are showing agape love. I don’t think that Lily’s love for Harry is in that category. Of course I am not denying the self-sacrificial nature of her love for Harry! And of course her love for Harry was unconditional - that's obvious. But it is the instinctive, primal love that that any decent, loving mother has for her child.

(The ancient Greeks had four words for love, in English we only have one ... which is a shame.)

ETA: Arguably, the nearest any HP character gets to showing agape is Harry, when his sacrifice in 'dying' activates the magic that protects his friends and colleagues during the Battle of Hogwarts. And his sacrifice deliberately mirrors that of Lily's, except that his sacrifice and the magical protection it triggers is even bigger! But he's still dying for the sake of his friends ... not his enemies. So, as wholly admirable as his action is ... it's still not quite agape. Which really is divine in origin.


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Last edited by Pearl_Took; May 22nd, 2013 at 6:32 pm. Reason: Further clarification ...
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 7:06 pm
LyraLovegood  Female.gif LyraLovegood is offline
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Interesting point which arose on the Snape thread:

I am not sure that Lily's love for Harry is agape. That is not to denigrate her love for Harry in any way....

(The ancient Greeks had four words for love, in English we only have one ... which is a shame.)

ETA: Arguably, the nearest any HP character gets to showing agape is Harry, when his sacrifice in 'dying' activates the magic that protects his friends and colleagues during the Battle of Hogwarts. And his sacrifice deliberately mirrors that of Lily's, except that his sacrifice and the magical protection it triggers is even bigger! But he's still dying for the sake of his friends ... not his enemies. So, as wholly admirable as his action is ... it's still not quite agape. Which really is divine in origin.
My understanding of agape love is this one, that Harry showed. The sacrificial love. I did not know that one had to be undeserving of love to be the recipient or beneficiary of agape love. I have always been taught that it is the selfless, sacrificial state of the lover that makes it agape love. Perhaps I do not know enough about it.

I do think that maternal love often is selfless and sacrificial, though that might not make it agape love. This does make it a high and admirable love, in my opinion; that the mother places the welfare and happiness of her child(ren) above her own desires and happiness, sometimes at great expense to herself.


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Last edited by LyraLovegood; May 22nd, 2013 at 7:11 pm.
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