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Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2



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  #21  
Old October 15th, 2011, 7:10 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I really do understand your viewpoint on this point. Once again I need to add a little more clarity to my ideas. (This is what I so enjoy about this forum-it pushes me to fully consider my thought processes; thanks all!)

For discussions sake, let's say Snape never shared the prophecy with Voldemort-what would have happened? Voldemort would have become more and more powerful and would have taken over not only the WW, but the MW as well. The Order was already suffering heavy losses and it is highly probable that Harry's parents would have died anyway. I think it's possible that Harry would have been given to DE parents to raise. But most importantly, I don't think Dumbledore would have figured out about the horcruxes. Harry's survival was DD's biggest clue as to what was going on.

Even if the Order was able to take out the original LV, in a few years time he would be back. I think DD was the only wizard capable enough to figure out what was going on with the horcruxes-but how long was he going to last, being quite aged when LV was defeated the first time?

Harry and his children would have grown up under LV's rule without any chance of defeating him. Harry knew that Snape instantly regretted giving the prophecy to Voldemort and from that point on worked tirelessly to defeat him, even giving his life to that end. Harry knew he would not have been able to defeat LV without Snape's contribution.

Taking all that into account, I believe Harry would have felt there was nothing to forgive Snape for-as far as divulging the prophecy to Voldemort was concerned.
I see passing on the prophecy as nothing but a negative act. I cannot bring myself to see it as a good thing, even if good came from it. Good coming from an evil act doesn't make it any less evil - if Harry was to take that tack, he should also say that there was nothing to forgive from Pettigrew betraying the Potter's location, because it led to the circumstances of Voldemort's defeat. IMO, passing on the prophecy was something that needed forgiveness, because of what it cost Harry and because of the nature of that act.

ETA - Harry did not think that Snape instantly regretted the prophecy. He knew that Snape did not regret it until it came back to bite him.

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As to Snape's bullying, I think after seeing the great lengths to which Snape went to protect Harry, and knowing how the many times Harry had put himself in harm's way would have driven the already stressed potions master nearly to madness, I think Harry would have called it a wash. Especially after he became a parent himself.

I am not able to see that line of reasoning as weakness.
I would hope that becoming a parent did not lead to Harry thinking that cruelty was ever justified by keeping someone physically safe.

I see it as a weakness if Harry decided there was nothing to forgive, because he is putting himself in the situation of saying that it wasn't wrong for someone else to hurt him. I see that as a completely different thing from forgiveness. IMO, that is an unhealthy mindset. I believe that Harry forgave Snape, I do not believe that he decided that Snape had done nothing wrong. And to clarify, I believe that feeling there was nothing to forgive is the same as feeling that Snape did nothing wrong.


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  #22  
Old October 15th, 2011, 7:18 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Might I ask that you go into more detail on what you mean by "purposeless sacrifice"?
You know, I think I actually mean without a concrete plan, not without a purpose. But as I say, I think I need some time to think about this a bit further.


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  #23  
Old December 27th, 2011, 10:16 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I see it as a weakness if Harry decided there was nothing to forgive, because he is putting himself in the situation of saying that it wasn't wrong for someone else to hurt him. I see that as a completely different thing from forgiveness. IMO, that is an unhealthy mindset. I believe that Harry forgave Snape, I do not believe that he decided that Snape had done nothing wrong. And to clarify, I believe that feeling there was nothing to forgive is the same as feeling that Snape did nothing wrong.
For the past two months my posts have been minimal due to a project I've been working on, but I wanted to come back to this topic (now that the project is essentially completed) and perhaps explain a bit further about why I think Harry may have arrived at a point where he might have felt he had nothing to forgive Snape for.

And it comes from personal experience. At one point in my career, there was someone who took issue with the way I was performing my job. This person was rude to me, repeatedly tried to bully me into modifying my procedures to expedite their projects (which I resisted strenously) and went so far as to try and get me fired. I hated every interaction with them.

But one day this person called and said "You know what? You've been right this whole time." Besides nearly dropping the phone, I was speechless. They never actually said "I'm sorry for the way I treated you" but my hostility toward them vanished instantly. Although I can remember being upset with them, I can no longer feel upset with them at all. Those feelings are completely gone. And in a flash--there was no pondering about letting those emotions go; no analyzing my former tormentor's behavior, weighing pros and cons, etc. Just *snap* and everything was different.

And that's how I think it was with Harry. Once he saw Snape's memories, all his animosity toward the man dissolved. I even believe that after processing the events after Voldemort's defeat, that Harry actually developed an affection toward Snape or else he never could have given Albus the middle name he did.


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  #24  
Old December 28th, 2011, 12:02 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
For the past two months my posts have been minimal due to a project I've been working on, but I wanted to come back to this topic (now that the project is essentially completed) and perhaps explain a bit further about why I think Harry may have arrived at a point where he might have felt he had nothing to forgive Snape for.

And it comes from personal experience. At one point in my career, there was someone who took issue with the way I was performing my job. This person was rude to me, repeatedly tried to bully me into modifying my procedures to expedite their projects (which I resisted strenously) and went so far as to try and get me fired. I hated every interaction with them.

But one day this person called and said "You know what? You've been right this whole time." Besides nearly dropping the phone, I was speechless. They never actually said "I'm sorry for the way I treated you" but my hostility toward them vanished instantly. Although I can remember being upset with them, I can no longer feel upset with them at all. Those feelings are completely gone. And in a flash--there was no pondering about letting those emotions go; no analyzing my former tormentor's behavior, weighing pros and cons, etc. Just *snap* and everything was different.

And that's how I think it was with Harry. Once he saw Snape's memories, all his animosity toward the man dissolved. I even believe that after processing the events after Voldemort's defeat, that Harry actually developed an affection toward Snape or else he never could have given Albus the middle name he did.
I see what you mean, but I see forgiveness as a different thing from deciding that there was nothing to forgive. If Harry felt there was nothing to forgive, he would be essentially saying that there was nothing wrong in passing on the prophecy, that there was nothing wrong in a teacher bullying a student, misusing authority to take a petty grudge out on someone who could not defend themselves. I do not see Harry as being so weak-willed and lacking in self-respect as to think that someone who bullied him did nothing wrong. Forgiveness takes strength, thinking that the person who hurt you did nothing wrong is a weakness, IMO. I think Harry forgave Snape, but I do not think he felt that Snape had done nothing wrong, nothing needing forgiveness.


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Old January 1st, 2012, 9:55 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I see what you mean, but I see forgiveness as a different thing from deciding that there was nothing to forgive. If Harry felt there was nothing to forgive, he would be essentially saying that there was nothing wrong in passing on the prophecy, that there was nothing wrong in a teacher bullying a student, misusing authority to take a petty grudge out on someone who could not defend themselves. I do not see Harry as being so weak-willed and lacking in self-respect as to think that someone who bullied him did nothing wrong. Forgiveness takes strength, thinking that the person who hurt you did nothing wrong is a weakness, IMO. I think Harry forgave Snape, but I do not think he felt that Snape had done nothing wrong, nothing needing forgiveness.
I agree. Recognizing someone's courage and/or contribution to the defeat of a common enemy is a separate matter from forgiving bad behavior and unfair treatment. I think Harry came to respect what Snape did toward the defeat of Voldemort, and appreciated Snape's love & loyalty to Lily. But I doubt that he "saw nothing to forgive" regarding what you mention -- the prophecy revelation which essentially set Voldemort on the path to killing James & Lily, and Snape's unfair treatment and bullying of Harry throughout his years at Hogwarts. I'm guessing that Harry would have forgiven Snape, in deference to Snape's bravery.


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Old January 2nd, 2012, 6:20 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I agree. Recognizing someone's courage and/or contribution to the defeat of a common enemy is a separate matter from forgiving bad behavior and unfair treatment. I think Harry came to respect what Snape did toward the defeat of Voldemort, and appreciated Snape's love & loyalty to Lily. But I doubt that he "saw nothing to forgive" regarding what you mention -- the prophecy revelation which essentially set Voldemort on the path to killing James & Lily, and Snape's unfair treatment and bullying of Harry throughout his years at Hogwarts. I'm guessing that Harry would have forgiven Snape, in deference to Snape's bravery.
I agree entirely with what you are saying. If Harry thought he had nothing to forgive Snape for because of the positive outcome of his acts, we might as well say he had no need to forgive the Dursleys for their bullying of him and their despising of his parents and refusal to admit his wizard heritage because his home background gave him the strength to take on Voldemort and it all worked out OK in the end. Because Harry basically seems to have a generous and forgiving nature (he rescued Draco from the RoR after all) I daresay he did forgive the Dursleys in the end, but not because he thought they'd done nothing wrong.

I think that Harry, while still feeling that Snape had been wrong in sharing the prophecy with Voldemort and thus being the indirect cause of his parents' deaths, and in bullying him at school, found it quick and easy to forgive him when he learned of Snape's courage in later years and his devction to Lily.


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  #27  
Old January 16th, 2012, 10:11 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
For discussions sake, let's say Snape never shared the prophecy with Voldemort-what would have happened? Voldemort would have become more and more powerful and would have taken over not only the WW, but the MW as well. The Order was already suffering heavy losses and it is highly probable that Harry's parents would have died anyway. I think it's possible that Harry would have been given to DE parents to raise. But most importantly, I don't think Dumbledore would have figured out about the horcruxes. Harry's survival was DD's biggest clue as to what was going on.

Even if the Order was able to take out the original LV, in a few years time he would be back. I think DD was the only wizard capable enough to figure out what was going on with the horcruxes-but how long was he going to last, being quite aged when LV was defeated the first time?

Harry and his children would have grown up under LV's rule without any chance of defeating him. Harry knew that Snape instantly regretted giving the prophecy to Voldemort and from that point on worked tirelessly to defeat him, even giving his life to that end. Harry knew he would not have been able to defeat LV without Snape's contribution.

Taking all that into account, I believe Harry would have felt there was nothing to forgive Snape for-as far as divulging the prophecy to Voldemort was concerned.
I think you're forgetting some significant factors here. First and foremost, Snape was never the only spy that Voldemort used - nor Dumbledore for that matter. Voldemort had spies everywhere - including Rookwood at the Ministry, who as it happened, worked in the DoM where the prophecies were stored. Second, the prophecy itself was a diversion for Voldemort - distracting him from his original plans and goals so, while there were still efforts being put into that direction, Voldemort was personally focused on determining who "the one" was and planning to kill them. Third, Pettigrew was a weak link within the Order - not just for James and Lily, but the Order as a whole. Fourth, Dumbledore was already aware that Voldemort had made at least one Horcrux - or he did at least suspect that at this time.

Taking those factors into account, there are various scenarios that are possible if you remove Snape from the equation. The odds are that Voldemort would have learned about the prophecy regardless because Rookwood would have seen it in his duties at the DoM and reported to Voldemort because the prophecy was about him. The difference with this scenario is that Rookwood would not know any of the contents of the prophecy - not even the first part that listed the criteria for determining the potential identity of "the one". However, Rookwood could tell Voldemort that only the people the prophecy was about could take it from the Hall of Prophecies. That's where the possibilities split into various scenarios.

Voldemort decides not to risk getting the prophecy from the Ministry himself, but rather chooses to enlist a spy within the Order to find out what it says.

This scenario would play out in a similar manner because Pettigrew was the weak link within the Order and the most likely candidate for Voldemort to approach as a spy. Voldemort threatens Pettigrew - he caves. Now, we know that Dumbledore never shared the entire prophecy with anyone but Harry, but he did warn both the Potters and the Longbottoms so they knew at least the first part of the prophecy - identifying them as potential targets because they had both defied Voldemort three times and Lily and Alice were both expecting babies at the end of July. Pettigrew - being a trusted friend and member of the Order - would know at least that much as well. James would have discussed the danger with the other Marauders.

In this scenario, the only real change would be that Pettigrew would be the one who told Voldemort what the first part of the prophecy said. Everything else would play out essentially the same. Dumbledore had other spies to supply him with information and other people he could have enlisted the help of in carrying out his plans - not to mention that many of those things were things that Dumbledore could - and should - have done himself anyway. So this scenario would not be very different from what actually happened - though Harry's school experience would probably be more pleasant without Snape bullying him.

Voldemort decides to take the risk and gets the prophecy from the DoM himself.

This scenario presents two possible outcomes because this would enable Voldemort to hear the entire prophecy. In that event, he may have realized that it was self-fulfilling and, to act on it by trying to kill "the one", he would actually be creating the one. In that event, it would play out like the last scenario that I will describe below.

However, it's also possible that Voldemort would not realize that or decide it was too risky not to act. In that event, it would be the same as the first scenario above. Not much would change because Voldemort would still enlist Pettigrew as a spy and Dumbledore still had other spies to supply him with information and other people to help him and still could - and should - do much of that himself anyway.

Voldemort chooses to ignore the prophecy.

This is where things would change. Had Voldemort ignored the prophecy, he would not have been distracted from his original plans and goals. He would not have enlisted Pettigrew as a spy to determine the identity of "the one" so Pettigrew would not have betrayed his friends. The Potters would not have been killed in the attempt to kill Harry, Sirius would not have spent all those years in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit, etc... They would all remain members of the Order and continue fighting against Voldemort.

Voldemort would carry on with his plans and, considering that he was at the point of taking over when he learned of the prophecy, he would most likely continue on that vein. His primary goal without that diversion would have been to kill Dumbledore - the only one he ever feared. Part of that would have been moving forward with his plan to get the diary into the school to control a student in reopening the Chamber of Secrets with the idea of discrediting Dumbledore and potentially removing him from Hogwarts as Headmaster. That would lead to Dumbledore figuring out that Voldemort had made multiple Horcruxes because there would be no situation in which Dumbledore allowed Harry opportunities to figure these things out and face Voldemort - Harry would still be a baby and not under any threat. Dumbledore would have solved that mystery himself, taken care of the basilisk and the diary, etc...

Voldemort would begin a quest to learn as much about Dumbledore as he could to figure out how to kill him - know thine enemy. Dumbledore would work on getting Slughorn to share his memory of Riddle asking about Horcruxes and gather all the information about Voldemort he could - again, know thine enemy. Since all of this would be happening in the early 80's instead of the late 90's, Dumbledore would likely have been able to clear Morfin and ensure his release from Azkaban before he died in the process of all that research. Voldemort would likely learn about Grindelwald acquiring a powerful wand in his rise to power - setting him on his own quest for the Elder Wand and giving him yet another reason to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore would start searching for and destroying Voldemort's Horcruxes. They would eventually face each other and Dumbledore would win that duel, IMO.

That would be my take on it - without the diversion of the prophecy and the failed attempt to kill Harry, Voldemort would have been defeated long before Harry even got his Hogwarts letter, IMO. Harry would grow up with his parents in the wizarding world and likely be more outgoing and confident - though I think he would still have that strong capacity for love and compassion and his "saving people thing" because I feel those are qualities he inherited from his parents to begin with. However, it wouldn't really be an issue in his life because the war would be over and he would have had a happy, normal childhood.

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As to Snape's bullying, I think after seeing the great lengths to which Snape went to protect Harry, and knowing how the many times Harry had put himself in harm's way would have driven the already stressed potions master nearly to madness, I think Harry would have called it a wash. Especially after he became a parent himself.

I am not able to see that line of reasoning as weakness.
I have to disagree with that. Harry is in no way responsible for Snape's choices. Harry was the victim there. It does not matter what Harry did because Snape had no right to treat him that way. If a student breaks a rule you give them lines or put them in detention. You do not physically attack them, insult their dead father, encourage other students to make fun of them or ignore it when other students attack them, insult and/or humiliate their friends, openly try to humiliate them in front of other teachers - I could go on and on. Snape's behavior towards Harry was unprofessional as well as unethical and not justified by any stretch of the imagination, IMO. I see no point in blaming the victim and I do not believe that Harry was so weak or insecure as to blame himself for what Snape did to him.

As I see it, Harry chose to forgive Snape because he learned from Snape's mistakes. He saw for himself that holding on to petty grudges, being unwilling to forgive, and blaming others instead of accepting his own culpability resulted in Snape becoming a lonely, miserable, bitter, vengeful adult who had no joy or happiness and no real friends in his life. Harry did not want that kind of life, IMO. I don't think Harry ever forgot what Snape did to him, but I think he learned that it was better to let it go and forgive so he didn't suffer the same fate. Harry went on to have a full, happy life with his friends, marrying the woman he loved, and children because he wasn't sitting around thinking bitter thoughts about Snape the way Snape had done with James - and subsequently Harry, IMO.


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Old January 16th, 2012, 11:27 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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As I see it, Harry chose to forgive Snape because he learned from Snape's mistakes. He saw for himself that holding on to petty grudges, being unwilling to forgive, and blaming others instead of accepting his own culpability resulted in Snape becoming a lonely, miserable, bitter, vengeful adult who had no joy or happiness and no real friends in his life. Harry did not want that kind of life, IMO.
I don't think this was a learned behaviour. As I see it, it was a natural part of Harry's character not to hold grudges. I see Harry as being forgiving and compassionate by nature.

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I don't think Harry ever forgot what Snape did to him, but I think he learned that it was better to let it go and forgive so he didn't suffer the same fate. Harry went on to have a full, happy life with his friends, marrying the woman he loved, and children because he wasn't sitting around thinking bitter thoughts about Snape the way Snape had done with James - and subsequently Harry, IMO.
I think there was more to it than that. And, that by this time, Harry could see the bigger picture and understood enough to put things into perspective as to what was more important. I don't think he would have given his son the name of Severus otherwise.


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Old January 16th, 2012, 11:43 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I don't think this was a learned behaviour. As I see it, it was a natural part of Harry's character not to hold grudges. I see Harry as being forgiving and compassionate by nature.
I do too. He also has a temper! He can get very angry on occasion, as we see in the incident when he succumbs to 'Crucio'ing Carrow. But having a hot temper, one that flares up and flares down, is common to passionate people, and Harry is both passionate and hot-headed (look at how he flares up violently at Remus when Remus expresses the wish to abandon his family) and reserved. People who withdraw emotionally (as Harry so often does when he's under stress) are not necessarily lacking in feelings: it's often the reverse. It is with him, at any rate.


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Old January 16th, 2012, 12:05 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I don't think this was a learned behaviour. As I see it, it was a natural part of Harry's character not to hold grudges. I see Harry as being forgiving and compassionate by nature.
I do agree that Harry is forgiving and compassionate by nature. However, he also demonstrated the potential for holding a grudge - particularly when it came to Snape. I wouldn't call learning from someone else's mistakes learned behavior - I think that is oversimplifying it. I think that seeing what a mess Snape made of his life because of his anger and bitterness and being so unwilling to forgive had such an impact on Harry because he had a forgiving and compassionate nature.

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I think there was more to it than that. And, that by this time, Harry could see the bigger picture and understood enough to put things into perspective as to what was more important. I don't think he would have given his son the name of Severus otherwise.
I've never found it plausible that Harry gave his son the middle name of Severus to be honest - it's too forced and I've never been able to figure out why Jo thought that would be a good idea. I just think of the kid as Al - as his family called him.

However, I do agree that Harry could see the bigger picture. That was my point. Harry could have followed Snape's example and held on to his anger - allowing himself to become a bitter, vengeful, miserable adult by refusing to look at the bigger picture. He chose not to follow that example because he understood that living - truly living - was more important, IMO.


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Old January 16th, 2012, 10:22 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Harry is both passionate and hot-headed [...] and reserved. People who withdraw emotionally (as Harry so often does when he's under stress) are not necessarily lacking in feelings: it's often the reverse. It is with him, at any rate.
I don't get what you mean when you say Harry is reserved - can you explain please (I might just be a tad dense atm!)


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Old January 18th, 2012, 6:24 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I do agree that Harry is forgiving and compassionate by nature. However, he also demonstrated the potential for holding a grudge - particularly when it came to Snape. I wouldn't call learning from someone else's mistakes learned behavior - I think that is oversimplifying it. I think that seeing what a mess Snape made of his life because of his anger and bitterness and being so unwilling to forgive had such an impact on Harry because he had a forgiving and compassionate nature.
Harry has always been compassionate by nature, like his mother. Despite the fact that Dudley bullied him his whole life, Harry tries to steer Dudley away from the dementors, warning him to keep his mouth closed so the dementors couldn't suck out his soul, until he can manage to cast a patronus charm. Despite being at odds with and disliking Draco, he still risks his life to rescue Draco in DH in the Room of Requirement.

I don't think Harry would have "held a grudge" against Snape so early, had Snape (an adult and teacher) not been so mean and unfair from the beginning. And I think that any compassion and understanding Harry gained came from his own nature, not any opposite example from Snape.

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Originally Posted by meesha1917
I've never found it plausible that Harry gave his son the middle name of Severus to be honest - it's too forced and I've never been able to figure out why Jo thought that would be a good idea. I just think of the kid as Al - as his family called him.
Al was born 7 years after Voldemort's downfall. That's a long time for Harry to reflect on everything that happened; and given Harry's nature, along with what he learned about Snape's early life from the memories, I think he was able to understand and appreciate what Snape got right and the courage it took to follow it through. Personally, I wasn't surprised at all that Harry gave Al that middle name; I think it was very much like Harry to do that.


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Old January 18th, 2012, 6:39 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I don't think Harry would have "held a grudge" against Snape so early, had Snape (an adult and teacher) not been so mean and unfair from the beginning. And I think that any compassion and understanding Harry gained came from his own nature, not any opposite example from Snape.
I'd agree about Harry's compassionate nature, but I'm not sure it's clear he did really hold a grudge against Snape. As you say, Snape's behavior was usually provocative enough in itself to warrant negative reactions, and Harry often enough found reasons to distrust him quite unrelated to their personal relationship.

Given time and less aggravating circumstances, I think Harry would have (as he did) come to be at least indifferent to Snape's behavior.


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Old January 19th, 2012, 12:29 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Harry has always been compassionate by nature, like his mother. Despite the fact that Dudley bullied him his whole life, Harry tries to steer Dudley away from the dementors, warning him to keep his mouth closed so the dementors couldn't suck out his soul, until he can manage to cast a patronus charm. Despite being at odds with and disliking Draco, he still risks his life to rescue Draco in DH in the Room of Requirement.

I don't think Harry would have "held a grudge" against Snape so early, had Snape (an adult and teacher) not been so mean and unfair from the beginning. And I think that any compassion and understanding Harry gained came from his own nature, not any opposite example from Snape.
I agree - that was my point. Harry is compassionate by nature, but he also reacted very realistically to continued antagonism and abuse. He saved Dudley, but could not honestly say that he would save his Uncle Vernon when that possibility arose. I think he probably would have because he was compassionate by nature, but he couldn't see himself doing it because of their history.

It is a similar situation with Snape - seven years of antagonism and varying degrees of verbal and physical abuse. Snape gave Harry every reason to hate him over the years and he reacted to that realistically. It was very possible that he could have grown up holding a grudge similar to the grudge he felt towards the Dursleys. I think it is because Harry was compassionate by nature that he was able to understand and learn from the example set by Snape. His compassionate nature enabled him to understand the reasons why as well as understand that those reasons did not justify Snape's behavior - ultimately understanding that it was more healthy to forgive and let it go.

That's not to say that Harry could not have come to similar conclusions without such an example, but then again, without that example from Snape's antagonism and abuse, there wouldn't have been a need for him to do so either.

Quote:
Al was born 7 years after Voldemort's downfall. That's a long time for Harry to reflect on everything that happened; and given Harry's nature, along with what he learned about Snape's early life from the memories, I think he was able to understand and appreciate what Snape got right and the courage it took to follow it through. Personally, I wasn't surprised at all that Harry gave Al that middle name; I think it was very much like Harry to do that.
He was actually born 8 years later. Regardless, the amount of time that passed doesn't make that any more plausible to me. For one thing, there were far too many questions that were left unanswered regarding Snape - I would expect those years to result in Harry realizing that and wondering what those answers were. Actually, to be completely honest, I still don't find it plausible that Harry didn't ask those questions right away because the holes were so obvious. However, more importantly, it was a really disrespectful thing for Harry to do because he knew that was something Snape would have hated. You don't honor someone's memory by doing something you know they would hate, IMO.


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Old January 19th, 2012, 1:07 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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For one thing, there were far too many questions that were left unanswered regarding Snape - I would expect those years to result in Harry realizing that and wondering what those answers were. Actually, to be completely honest, I still don't find it plausible that Harry didn't ask those questions right away because the holes were so obvious. However, more importantly, it was a really disrespectful thing for Harry to do because he knew that was something Snape would have hated. You don't honor someone's memory by doing something you know they would hate, IMO.
I don't think it was disrespectful for Harry to name his son after Snape. And from my understanding neither did Harry, as he tells Albus Severus, “Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew.” (DH, The Epilogue)

That sounds very much to me like Harry considered it a way of honouring Snape. One doesn't normally name one's children after someone so as to disrespect their memory.


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Old January 19th, 2012, 1:42 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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I don't think it was disrespectful for Harry to name his son after Snape. And from my understanding neither did Harry, as he tells Albus Severus, ?Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew.? (DH, The Epilogue)

That sounds very much to me like Harry considered it a way of honouring Snape. One doesn't normally name one's children after someone so as to disrespect their memory.
I consider it extremely disrespectful to do anything intentionally that you know someone would hate. That does not honor them - it insults them, IMO. I'll give you a real life example. When I was pregnant with my first child and found out it was a boy, I considered naming him after my father and thought he'd like that. My father informed me that he did not want me to name my son after him - he hates his name and did not want another kid to be saddled with it. He doesn't even use his legal name unless he has to for official business - he goes by a nickname. So, to honor my father, I respected his wishes and chose another name. Had I named my son after him in spite of knowing that he would hate it, I would have been very disrespectful and insulting to him.

Harry knew Snape well enought to know that he would hate the fact that he named one of his kids after him. This is the same man who was infuriated by the fact that James saved his life and considered that an unforgivable act. Snape would find what Harry did an insult so I cannot consider it an honor by any stretch of the imagination because Harry knew that Snape would consider that insulting and hate it. That's why I've never been able to figure out what Jo was thinking there or why she ever thought that would be a good idea - it only makes Harry come across as disrespectful, IMO.


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Old January 19th, 2012, 2:18 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Harry knew Snape well enough to know that he would hate the fact that he named one of his kids after him.
Well, this is speculation ... not something set in canon concrete. If that were the case, then Harry really did get it wrong ...

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That's why I've never been able to figure out what Jo was thinking there or why she ever thought that would be a good idea - it only makes Harry come across as disrespectful, IMO.
To you, perhaps, but not to me. To me it comes across as generous, and IMO that's how JKR intended it to come across. I honestly don't believe she intended anyone to think, by the end of her long saga, that her hero was being disrespectful or delusional.


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Old January 19th, 2012, 5:45 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I consider it extremely disrespectful to do anything intentionally that you know someone would hate. That does not honor them - it insults them, IMO.
...
Harry knew Snape well enought to know that he would hate the fact that he named one of his kids after him. This is the same man who was infuriated by the fact that James saved his life and considered that an unforgivable act. Snape would find what Harry did an insult so I cannot consider it an honor by any stretch of the imagination because Harry knew that Snape would consider that insulting and hate it. That's why I've never been able to figure out what Jo was thinking there or why she ever thought that would be a good idea - it only makes Harry come across as disrespectful, IMO.
I agree with Meesha's feeling that Harry naming his kid after a man with which he spent 7 years in deepest dislike and animosity never sat right with me either. It seemed forced and contrite, like Harry was trying to make up for the fact that he hated Snape for so long but that they turned out to be on the same side.

I do get where TreacleTartlet, Pearl_Took and others see that it was honoring Snape; yes, I agree that Snape would have hated one of Harry's kids bearing his name but he was also not there to expressing forbid Harry from doing it. With Meesha's example of naming her son after her father, if her father had died before she had told him she wanted to name her son after him she'd never have known that he didn't like his name or that he wouldn't want anyone else saddled with it. In that instance, Meesha would have probably continued to believe that naming her son after her father would be honoring her father. (i'm assuming this was the only time her father's dislike of his own name came up) I can also kind of see Snape being taken aback that Harry could do what he could not and put aside his feelings of animosity.

What really gets me, though, isn't whether Harry named one of his kids after a guy he seemed to hate almost from the moment they met is the lack of kids names that were meaningful to Ginny. Here's a list of Harry's kids' names:

James Sirius (Harry's father, Harry's Godfather - both meaningful to Harry)
Albus Severus (Harry's mentor, Harry's nemisis turned good guy - both more meaningful to Harry than Ginny)
Lily Luna (Harry's mother, Harry and Ginny's friend - the only name to include someone Ginny expressed true liking for)

What about Ginny's six older brothers? What about her father? Was Harry the only one choosing these names or was Ginny so compliant that she went along with names that only held meaning for her husband?

Why couldn't it have been James Arthur honoring both of their fathers?
Why couldn't it have been Albus Fredrick honoring the mentor Harry lost and the brother Ginny lost?

In short, I have lots of issues with harry's kids' names beyond just having Severus in there.

The only name I really like is Lily Luna because it honors Harry's mother and Harry and Ginny's friend and seems the most balanced between them (not to mention it's got a cute little ring to it) =^)


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Old January 19th, 2012, 9:16 pm
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

I would disagree that Harry's action in naming his son "Albus Severus" was disrespectful to Snape. The key to understanding this choice is to consider not what we the readers may think of Snape, but what Harry does. Do we have reason to believe Harry believes Snape would be displeased to have a grandson of Lily named after him? I would say not. On the contrary. In the final chapter of the book, after Snape has posthumously bared his soul to Harry, what Harry has to say about Snape:

DH“Snape’s Patronus was a doe,” said Harry, “the same as my mother’s, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children. You should have realized,” he said as he saw Voldemort’s nostrils flare, “he asked you to spare her
life, didn’t he?”
“He desired her, that was all,” sneered Voldemort, “but when she had gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him—”
“Of course he told you that,” said Harry, “but he was Dumbledore’s spy from the moment you threatened her, and he’s been working against you ever since!"


To Harry, once he learned how he was mistaken about Snape, Snape's entire life was defined by his love for Lily. Including him, symbloically, in Lily's family the way Harry did, I think would strike Harry as entirely appropriate and respectful.


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  #40  
Old January 20th, 2012, 1:01 am
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Re: Harry Potter: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Well, this is speculation ... not something set in canon concrete. If that were the case, then Harry really did get it wrong ...



To you, perhaps, but not to me. To me it comes across as generous, and IMO that's how JKR intended it to come across. I honestly don't believe she intended anyone to think, by the end of her long saga, that her hero was being disrespectful or delusional.
Well, no - that was confirmed by Jo actually. Snape hated Harry to his dying breath - and I feel that was very well demonstrated in the books. Snape loved Lily and his actions were for her - not Harry. He hated Harry. Harry understood that Snape loved his mother, but he also understood that Snape hated him. As such, naming one of his kids after Snape was disrespectful, IMO. You don't honor someone by doing something that you know they would hate.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I agree with Meesha's feeling that Harry naming his kid after a man with which he spent 7 years in deepest dislike and animosity never sat right with me either. It seemed forced and contrite, like Harry was trying to make up for the fact that he hated Snape for so long but that they turned out to be on the same side.

I do get where TreacleTartlet, Pearl_Took and others see that it was honoring Snape; yes, I agree that Snape would have hated one of Harry's kids bearing his name but he was also not there to expressing forbid Harry from doing it. With Meesha's example of naming her son after her father, if her father had died before she had told him she wanted to name her son after him she'd never have known that he didn't like his name or that he wouldn't want anyone else saddled with it. In that instance, Meesha would have probably continued to believe that naming her son after her father would be honoring her father. (i'm assuming this was the only time her father's dislike of his own name came up) I can also kind of see Snape being taken aback that Harry could do what he could not and put aside his feelings of animosity.
Actually, my dad never expressly forbade me from doing it - he just told me that he hated his name and part of the reason he hated it wat that it really wasn't a good name for a kid. He got teased about it when he was young - which is why he started using a nickname that wouldn't get him teased.

The difference for me was that I didn't have access to a pensieve to see such incidents from my dad's youth. I didn't know until he told me. Snape didn't have to tell Harry because Harry saw it for himself. He knew Snape hated him from the time he was 11 years old till the time Snape died. He knew why Snape hated him. He had seen how easily Snape's name was converted to something insulting and mocking. In that respect, it's not just disrespectful to Snape because Harry knew Snape would hate it - it's also rather disrespectful to his son because he saddled him with a name that has a lot of potential for getting him teased. Though, on the plus side, he did make it his middle name so most people will never even know about it.

Quote:
What really gets me, though, isn't whether Harry named one of his kids after a guy he seemed to hate almost from the moment they met is the lack of kids names that were meaningful to Ginny. Here's a list of Harry's kids' names:

James Sirius (Harry's father, Harry's Godfather - both meaningful to Harry)
Albus Severus (Harry's mentor, Harry's nemisis turned good guy - both more meaningful to Harry than Ginny)
Lily Luna (Harry's mother, Harry and Ginny's friend - the only name to include someone Ginny expressed true liking for)

What about Ginny's six older brothers? What about her father? Was Harry the only one choosing these names or was Ginny so compliant that she went along with names that only held meaning for her husband?

Why couldn't it have been James Arthur honoring both of their fathers?
Why couldn't it have been Albus Fredrick honoring the mentor Harry lost and the brother Ginny lost?

In short, I have lots of issues with harry's kids' names beyond just having Severus in there.

The only name I really like is Lily Luna because it honors Harry's mother and Harry and Ginny's friend and seems the most balanced between them (not to mention it's got a cute little ring to it) =^)
Coming from a rather large family myself, I found that to be realistic. Ginny is the youngest of her siblings and, being part of such a large family, the names get used. Bill's full name was William Arthur. Ginny's was Ginevra Molly. Percy named one of his daughters after Molly. George named his son after Fred - which is fitting because Fred was his twin.

In addition, apart from Fred, they're all still alive so it would be confusing to reuse first names - that actually happened on my father's side of the family. Three kids named after my grandfather in the same generation. Only one actually gets to use the name - the others have to use nicknames so there's no confusion as to which of them is being spoken to or talked about. We've got two more in the younger generation - a brother and sister. My aunt and uncle demonstrated a complete lack of originality by using the masculine and feminite forms of the name for both their kids. Really confusing when we all get together.

More importantly, we can't say that Ginny had no part in choosing those names because those people were important to her as well. James and Lily were Harry's parents, but they are also heroes in the wizarding world - complete with a statue commemorating them. They are her in-laws even though she never knew them - they are the parents her husband never got the chance to know in person because they sacrificed their lives to save him. Sirius was Harry's godfather, but he was also someone Ginny cared about. That's why she insisted on going with them in OOTP - she cared about Sirius and didn't want him to get killed any more than Harry did. Luna was Ginny's friend before she became Harry's. Albus Dumbledore was her headmaster as well and someone she had looked up to her whole life.

I see it in the same context as Molly giving Harry her brother's watch instead of giving it to Ron or any of his other siblings. For the Weasley kids, Fabian's watch would only have been another hand-me-down - and they had plenty of those. It meant more to Ron to get a new watch - something of his very own - instead of another hand-me-down. It meant more to Harry to get Fabian's watch because it was Molly's way of showing him that he was part of the family. Harry could afford to buy a new watch on his own so, where the watch would have been just another hand-me-down to Ron, it was an heirloom for Harry.

That's true for family names as well. For Ginny, they are just names that have been passed on and have already been reused by her brothers. Why make family dinners confusing by having two Fred's or two Molly's? It's not particularly special to have several kids all sharing the same middle name either. Why not add new names to the mix? Why not bring Harry's family names in along with Harry himself? To be honest, I think it was actually Ginny who picked the name James Sirius. I think Harry would have been reluctant to suggest it - he was never one to openly discuss such things and he wasn't a pushy person.


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Last edited by meesha1971; January 20th, 2012 at 1:05 am.
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