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What Do You Consider "Real Music?"



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  #21  
Old December 18th, 2009, 3:21 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

Anything that has a good band with all types of woodwind and brass instruments. And as for modern music, anything wtih a real beat and a singer who's actually good. No screamo, rap, or hip hop.


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  #22  
Old December 18th, 2009, 8:56 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

1. What is real music in your opinion?
All music is real. Sounds and melody can't be fake.


2. If music isn't considered "real" what is it then?

see above. I suppose some people think that one has to play an instrument to be a real musician. I disagree as the voice was really the first musical instrument. Really, people who talk about "fake music" are just presenting their opinions as fact.

3. Do you listen to pop music? Why or why not?

Yes. I listen to anything that sounds good. I don't listen to any current pop though, although that goes for most genres.

4. Why do you think many people do not consider pop music to be "real music?'
Because they are closed-minded and/or musically ignorant. As a multi instrumentalist musician, it irritates me to no end when people say they hate pop or rap for some superficial reason. I think that any true music fan would not write off entire genres just because of some highly commercialized stuff they hear on mtv. Others have been too influenced by culture and upbringing to consider that other forms of music might be just as intelligent,real, musical, etc. And of course, there are people who just like to feel superior to others. Also I notice that some people have said rap is too focused on rhythm. I don't see how this makes the genre any less musical. If you go all the way back to Africa, the most original music was just rhythm and vocals. And even traditional Native American songs are just drums and voice. I would argue that rap is more real than other forms of music. And also, ALL music is based on rhythm. Listen to someone like Mozart, a lot of his music is based around the same repeating rhythms, but no one would say that he isn't real music.

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
I do wonder why rap isn't mentioned here . Well, I want to say that rap isn't real but a few days ago i actually listened to rap that actually seemed to be "from the heart" and not random swearing and perverted meaningless lyrics.
Well that's what happens when you open your mind.


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  #23  
Old December 20th, 2009, 11:12 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

but music it's art. There is this reggaeton thing going on here in Argentina. For what I've heard, the melody might change a little bit, but the percussion, rythm is always the same. Barely harmony. The only thing that matters is the lyrics. I really don't think that's "art". A child may put all his love and emotions on a painting he does for his or her mother, but does that make it art??


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  #24  
Old December 20th, 2009, 11:33 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by Lorena View Post
A child may put all his love and emotions on a painting he does for his or her mother, but does that make it art??
Of course it's art. Why should the emotions and expression of a child be invalidated because of his or her age or limited experience?


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  #25  
Old December 21st, 2009, 12:53 am
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by Lorena View Post
For what I've heard, the melody might change a little bit, but the percussion, rythm is always the same. Barely harmony. The only thing that matters is the lyrics.
I disagree. I'm not sure if you're only talking about music you listen to but if not I think it's not that simple. I could line up dozens, probably hundreds of songs that each sound entirely different even when you take out the lyrics. The melody, percussion, harmony not the same at all... this is probably the most obvious when comparing genres.


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  #26  
Old December 21st, 2009, 10:41 am
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
I disagree. I'm not sure if you're only talking about music you listen to but if not I think it's not that simple. I could line up dozens, probably hundreds of songs that each sound entirely different even when you take out the lyrics. The melody, percussion, harmony not the same at all... this is probably the most obvious when comparing genres.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I think Lorena was talking about one particular genre, reggaeton, currently popular in Argentina, which she dislikes and doesn't consider to be real music. As I understood it, her point was it can't claim to be music, as it all sounds the same and always has the same rhythm, and the only original feature of individual songs is the lyrics.

I'd still disagree with you, though, Lorena. Any genre or form tends to have a typical rhythm (from 4 to the floor house to classical sub-genres like the waltz - are waltzes "not real music" because they all have the same 3/4 beat?). Sticking to the rhythm of the form you have chosen to write in doesn't necessarily mean you are inept or unmusical.


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  #27  
Old December 21st, 2009, 12:31 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

I see a lot of rap-bashing here. Presumably from people who haven't got a clue about it. Whatever, hearing Mobb Deep for the first time was like the first time I heard the blues.
More importantly, most people who seem to point towards 'playing your own instruments' presumably have no idea about production, sampling or indeed the skills it involves.

Music is nothing more than the manipulation of aural tones to create emotive or other effects. Hence movements like 'Music Concrete' or the divergence of 20th century classical music against melody and tonality to create new sounds or sonic tones.

As for 'real' music, it's basically a term used by people to describe whatever their personal taste is. Take the Rage Against the Machine for Christmas number 1 campaign in the UK. I bought the single because I thought it would be a laugh but many of the supporters wouldn't shut up about what was 'real' or not 'real' about the performers involved. Presumably forgetting that both RATM and Joe McEldery are signed to subdivisions of Sony Records, and that 'Killing in the Name of' is about as rebellious as a teenager refusing to do his homework.


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  #28  
Old December 21st, 2009, 1:27 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Maybe I misunderstood, but I think Lorena was talking about one particular genre, reggaeton, currently popular in Argentina, which she dislikes and doesn't consider to be real music. As I understood it, her point was it can't claim to be music, as it all sounds the same and always has the same rhythm, and the only original feature of individual songs is the lyrics.
Ooh I see I completely misread the post then.

I don't think anyone is really rap-bashing. I for one understand sampling and percussion very well but still hold musicians who write their own lyrics and musical arrangements on a far higher level than rappers who write their own words and do some sampling. There is far more involved in composing for drums, two guitars, bass, keyboard and possibly sampling on top of that. That's not me not understanding rap, that's just how it is. I really admire some techno/EBM artists who do some really amazing things with sampling and yes, it's real music, but I still think music with a full instrumental arrangement are on a higher level.


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  #29  
Old December 21st, 2009, 2:52 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

1. What is real music in your opinion?
I think any type of music is real music. The definition of music has really changed over time. If it has rhythm, it's music. But most people I guess think of real music is playing actual instruments and singing without any actual effects.

2. If music isn't considered "real" what is it then?
Like I said, real music is anything that has a rhythm. So I don't think there's any "fake" music.

3. Do you listen to pop music? Why or why not?
I do listen to pop music. I like the beat. It's usually really fun to dance to, and it makes me happy. But their so so many types of pop. It's very broad.

4. Why do you think many people do not consider pop music to be "real music?'
Because it's manufactured. It's very computerized, and they think that the lyrics are meaningless. But I disagree, not all pop is meaningless. Say what you want about Lady Gaga, but she writes most(if not all) of her songs and some of them a very dark and serious themes. She takes her music very seriously.


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  #30  
Old December 21st, 2009, 3:25 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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More importantly, most people who seem to point towards 'playing your own instruments' presumably have no idea about production, sampling or indeed the skills it involves.
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I was a bit snooty about " 'groups' that don't play their own instruments", I meant all-singing girl bands/boy bands like Girls Aloud or Boyzone, not people who do their own programming/sampling/production.

I am well aware of the skills that involves - if you don't understand music, you can't produce it by electronic means, and many of the top producers/programmers started off as highly accomplished players of traditional instruments, anyway.

And I've already acknowledged that Girls Aloud etc are still making real music and that most of my prejudices are illogical and ridiculous when analysed objectively.

Quote:
As for 'real' music, it's basically a term used by people to describe whatever their personal taste is. Take the Rage Against the Machine for Christmas number 1 campaign in the UK. I bought the single because I thought it would be a laugh but many of the supporters wouldn't shut up about what was 'real' or not 'real' about the performers involved. Presumably forgetting that both RATM and Joe McEldery are signed to subdivisions of Sony Records, and that 'Killing in the Name of' is about as rebellious as a teenager refusing to do his homework.
And, as my sister pointed out, Joe probably sold more copies of his single because of the RATM campaign, as X Factor fans entered into the competitive record-purchasing spirit.

I supported the RATM campaign because I don't like the idea of one man having as much control over the UK music industry as Cowell has.

Much as I hate the X Factor and all it represents, though, it does strike me that for many aspiring musicians from humble backgrounds, TV talent competitions can be a more accessible route into a musical career than routes that a lot of people would consider more "credible", "real" and less "manufactured". It's amazing how many of the guitar-based bands that people consider "real" broke into the music scene by exploiting their middle-class family contacts within the industry.



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  #31  
Old December 21st, 2009, 7:09 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I'd still disagree with you, though, Lorena. Any genre or form tends to have a typical rhythm (from 4 to the floor house to classical sub-genres like the waltz - are waltzes "not real music" because they all have the same 3/4 beat?).
I not talking about time signature, I'm talking about rythm.
This reggaeton thing is basically always the exact same thing, the melody is practically always the exact same note, sometimes it might change a little bit.

For me not all music is the same. I cannot compare something like reggaton for example or cumbia, to a composition for 5 voices and brass orchestra by John Rutter, to a song by Tavener or to a full opera by Mozart. All of them may have emotions put into them, but I can certainly say that there is much more effort, time, hard work and creativity put into the last 3 examples.
I think emotions is one part of art, but not everything. Otherwise I may try painting


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  #32  
Old December 21st, 2009, 7:36 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by Lorena View Post
I not talking about time signature, I'm talking about rythm.
This reggaeton thing is basically always the exact same thing, the melody is practically always the exact same note, sometimes it might change a little bit.
OK. I'm not familiar with reggaeton, so I can't really defend it. (And, as has probably become glaringly obvious, I don't know a huge amount - technically - about music).

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For me not all music is the same. I cannot compare something like reggaton for example or cumbia, to a composition for 5 voices and brass orchestra by John Rutter, to a song by Tavener or to a full opera by Mozart. All of them may have emotions put into them, but I can certainly say that there is much more effort, time, hard work and creativity put into the last 3 examples.
I think emotions is one part of art, but not everything. Otherwise I may try painting
I respect the fact that that is what real music means to you.

IMO, though, the worth of a piece of music cannot be measured, per se, by how much hard work or technical difficulty has gone into it.

For a start, there are some genres (which I happen to love), like punk and folk, where lack of technical difficulty was originally pretty much the entire point - the fact that they are democratic, non-elitist forms which anyone can engage in, regardless of talent or whether or not you have received a formal musical education (which is often out of the financial reach of many people), is a key part of the philosophical rationale underpinning them.

Secondly, I'm sure even classical music experts don't choose their favourite pieces on the basis of how complex they are or how difficult they are to play - surely the aesthetic pleasure they bring is usually the number one criterion when choosing favourite music?

Thirdly, the purpose of some music often demands simplicity (e.g. dance music usually has to be simple and repetitive - if it was complex and kept taking you by surprise, it would be impossible to dance to.) Sometimes a piece of music simply doesn't need a lot of hard work going into it.

Fourthly, just because musicians/composers can write incredibly complex, multi-part compositions doesn't mean they have to. John Rutter also wrote Little Donkey (a children's Christmas Carol of headache-inducing banality and simplicity - which, of course, it has to be, as it's designed for primary school children to be able to easily sing. ) He's the same guy, presumably the same "real" musician when he wrote that carol as he was when he wrote the more complex work you've alluded to.

Yes, emotion isn't everything, but ultimately, I'd rather listen to music that had genuine emotion behind it, but little creativity or technical skill, than something written by a world-class musician, who had put months of hard work into it, which was cold and lacking in authentic emotion. But that's just my viewpoint.


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  #33  
Old December 21st, 2009, 9:46 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Much as I hate the X Factor and all it represents, though, it does strike me that for many aspiring musicians from humble backgrounds, TV talent competitions can be a more accessible route into a musical career than routes that a lot of people would consider more "credible", "real" and less "manufactured". It's amazing how many of the guitar-based bands that people consider "real" broke into the music scene by exploiting their middle-class family contacts within the industry.
You'd be amazed how much even a basic level of equipment to allow a bass, drum, guitar and vocalist to record a demo or play some gigs costs. I would certainly price it out of the range of an awful lot of working class kids anyway.

But flag waving revolution aside, the point about what is 'real' and isn't is pretty much moot. Most people tend to consider their personal taste 'real'. I mean obviously I think some kinds of music is much better than others. But at no point would I dismiss for example pop-punk like Green Day or Rancid or whatever as not being 'real' music, I just think that as a whole it tends to be an awful lot worse than hardcore like Black Flag etc.


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  #34  
Old December 21st, 2009, 10:48 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

I don't think any music is "not real music", just because it isn't your type of music doesn't mean it's fake.

This thread brings me back to someone said on Twitter, he said that R&B wasn't real music. To me that was a slap to the face of all the old Motown groups, Luther Vandross, Alicia Keys, etc... Of course not all of it's good but that goes with all genre's of music.

Yes, I listen to pop music. I listen to all types of music, yes I have a perferrably kind(R&B) but I also have rap(Jay Z) and some bands like Muse, Kings of Leon, and All American Rejects all on my Ipod.

Also with rap, I have seen rappers do live sets with bands and whatnot. Of course some rap songs are stupid and make no sense and are made for fun but you do have raps that are made from the heart. Mobb Deep, Mos Def, Jay Z, Tupac, and even Kanye West, etc.... have real serious songs that people can relate to their lives.


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  #35  
Old July 10th, 2010, 5:20 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Here are some questions for discussion:
1. What is real music in your opinion?
To me, music needs at minimum to have aesthetic appeal. This, of course, is subjective (by that definition alone, books and poetry would be considered music as well), so I think there are at least a few standards that music has to meet to be considered "real" music.

The most important of these standards is that the music must have a tune. Tune is what differentiates, for instance, singing from speaking or a melody from "playing" a bunch of notes on an open string. This part is why I don't consider rap or most hip-hop to be "music" - those don't have a tune and are typically just a person speaking with a preset (and often plagiarized) background. That, instead, should have its own name. Seeing as it has its own subcultures anyway, I doubt its artists would complain.

Secondly, the artist should genuinely be trying to make music and should be treating it as the focus of their profession. I feel that most modern pop artists (among many, maybe even most, other genres) do not genuinely do this or even try to do it. For instance, I don't honestly believe "bands" like the Backstreet Boys or Lady Gaga are even trying to make music. I believe they're trying to sell an image, of which their "music" is just a part. Using music to tell a story or paint a picture is fine, even wonderful. But using it to present a "look at me, I'm cool, now buy my stuff" kind of image, IMO, instantly de-legitimizes the "artist" as a musician. When some corporate label is telling people "This is the new popular thing, buy it so you'll be cool and up to date" and when that's the main reason people buy something, I don't consider it music. I think it says a lot that many modern artists build an image that focuses more on what they look like and how they dress than on how they actually sound.

Third, after all of the above, I think music should also make the listener feel something. I don't care if it's unholy wrath from Slayer, excitement from Paul Oakenfold, tears of joy from Tchaikovsky or melancholy from Bach, but the intention should be to at least feel something.

Quote:
2. If music isn't considered "real" what is it then?
Well, I think some of the things labeled as music today need to have their own name given to them instead. In particular, rap needs to simply be called rap. Pop should probably just be called pop, given that it's a conglomerate of different things rather than just music.

Quote:
3. Do you listen to pop music? Why or why not?
I suppose this depends on the artist, but in general I consider it one of today's many bits of junk culture that exists solely because it's so heavily commercialized, requires little to no thinking to interpret, and is essentially forced on the populace by those in control. Seeing as I tend to ignore just about everything fitting that description, I ignore most pop as well. Occasionally, I will come across a song of that sort that I can enjoy or from which I can hear some sort of merit, and when that happens I keep an open mind about it.

Quote:
4. Why do you think many people do not consider pop music to be "real music?'
Some (rather than many) people think so for the same reasons I listed above. However, I should note that this question carries a highly deceptive connotation by implying that pop is victimized by that accusation by more people than those who follow it without question.


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  #36  
Old July 10th, 2010, 7:59 pm
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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The most important of these standards is that the music must have a tune. Tune is what differentiates, for instance, singing from speaking or a melody from "playing" a bunch of notes on an open string. This part is why I don't consider rap or most hip-hop to be "music" - those don't have a tune and are typically just a person speaking with a preset (and often plagiarized) background.
Rappers do rap using melody, it's just harder to understand than in other forms of music. People say that rappers are just talking, but how many rappers actually sound exactly the same way when they talk as they do when they rap? They're still changing their voices to have a certain tone and rhythm that matches the music.


Quote:
Secondly, the artist should genuinely be trying to make music and should be treating it as the focus of their profession. I feel that most modern pop artists (among many, maybe even most, other genres) do not genuinely do this or even try to do it. For instance, I don't honestly believe "bands" like the Backstreet Boys or Lady Gaga are even trying to make music. I believe they're trying to sell an image, of which their "music" is just a part. Using music to tell a story or paint a picture is fine, even wonderful. But using it to present a "look at me, I'm cool, now buy my stuff" kind of image, IMO, instantly de-legitimizes the "artist" as a musician. When some corporate label is telling people "This is the new popular thing, buy it so you'll be cool and up to date" and when that's the main reason people buy something, I don't consider it music. I think it says a lot that many modern artists build an image that focuses more on what they look like and how they dress than on how they actually sound.
I agree that many people are selling an image, but people have been doing this for a very long time. People like Elvis Presley, The Sex Pistols, Madonna, etc,. were/are all trying to sell an image. Almost every artist is trying to sell an image. That's why they dress a certain way when they perform, take the time to make stylized music videos, and use the same design on all their album covers.

Quote:
Well, I think some of the things labeled as music today need to have their own name given to them instead. In particular, rap needs to simply be called rap. Pop should probably just be called pop, given that it's a conglomerate of different things rather than just music.
All music is just a conglomerate of what came before. That's how music evolves. Rap and pop (in its current form) are the same way. The first official rap song came from a disco song. Disco is a genre that came from soul and funk music, soul and funk music came from R&B, R&B came from Blues and Jazz and so on and so forth. People don't give rap and pop enough credit, but humans love to hate the present and idolize the past so it's not surprising.

"first" rap song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diiL9bqvalo


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  #37  
Old July 11th, 2010, 3:56 am
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
Rappers do rap using melody, it's just harder to understand than in other forms of music. People say that rappers are just talking, but how many rappers actually sound exactly the same way when they talk as they do when they rap? They're still changing their voices to have a certain tone and rhythm that matches the music.
To answer your question, from what I've heard, most of them do. But to be open-minded I tried what I call the "whistle test" for melody. I tried whistling a bunch of well-known rap tunes, starting with Rapper's Delight, then moving on to a few Jay-Z, then DMX, and finally Souljah Boy to see if, listening to the whistling, I could otherwise have identified them as that tune, or as a tune at all. I was unable with all of them to distinguish them from conversational speech set to a rhythm.


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People don't give rap and pop enough credit, but humans love to hate the present and idolize the past so it's not surprising.
I often wonder where people come up with things like this. For every one person that idolizes the past and hates the present, there are 100 who violently hate everything but the present. How many people get mocked, presumed to be gay, persecuted as a gay person, and physically beaten for liking rap - and then witness it being condoned and even encouraged by the majority of their peers?


BTW, the Fat Lady makes a very amusing mother-in-law to Cornelius Fudge, don't you agree?



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  #38  
Old July 11th, 2010, 5:01 am
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by APolaris View Post
To answer your question, from what I've heard, most of them do. But to be open-minded I tried what I call the "whistle test" for melody. I tried whistling a bunch of well-known rap tunes, starting with Rapper's Delight, then moving on to a few Jay-Z, then DMX, and finally Souljah Boy to see if, listening to the whistling, I could otherwise have identified them as that tune, or as a tune at all. I was unable with all of them to distinguish them from conversational speech set to a rhythm.
Well I have to disagree, especially if you're talking about people like Jay Z and DMX because I've heard them both speak and rap often and they don't talk the same way they rap. If you can't even tell Rapper's Delight by whistling then (not trying to be rude) I don't think you're very good at hearing melody. But even if you cannot hear the melody, music is not only melody; it is also rhythm. Rap is a form of music in which rhythm has dominance over melody. As I mentioned in a much earlier post, some of the earliest forms of music were based largely on rhythm, usually drumming and rhythmic story telling. Wikipedia has a good article on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping


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I often wonder where people come up with things like this. For every one person that idolizes the past and hates the present, there are 100 who violently hate everything but the present.
I didn't come up with it. I hear people talking about how much the present sucks and how awesome the past was all the time. I mostly hear this from young people who could not know what the past was really like. I'm sure there are more people who like the present than who hate it, but I hear the latter sentiment so much that's it's very noticeable.



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How many people get mocked, presumed to be gay, persecuted as a gay person, and physically beaten for liking rap - and then witness it being condoned and even encouraged by the majority of their peers?
I don't know. I think it depends on where one lives. I was sometimes mocked for liking rock and ska music during some of my years in middle school and high school in New Orleans mostly because people thought it was "white music" which made me want to slap them with a music history book. But I moved to Austin, Texas and no one mocked me because a lot more people there listened to those genres. I've been in towns where playing rap music got you stared at because no one liked that kind of music. I've never known anyone to be beaten up for liking a genre of music for liking a genre of music but I have known some boys who were presumed to be gay for liking singers such as Beyonce and Britney Spears (even though they were gay, but that's beside the point)


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BTW, the Fat Lady makes a very amusing mother-in-law to Cornelius Fudge, don't you agree?
Yes. They're both so very good at laughing.


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  #39  
Old July 11th, 2010, 8:42 am
InnyBinny  Undisclosed.gif InnyBinny is offline
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

Anything with the intention of being music is real music. Goodness, what an awful term.

Under this heading of 'real music', more commonly known as 'music', there would be good and bad music. Most would consider something like modulating white noise to be a rather distasteful example of music, but for some incomprehensible reason there are a select few that do find meaningful messages amongst it - because that is what music is. An art form using the medium of sound. Art. That is the definition. Melody and rhythm are merely common elements, not at all ubiquitous in all music.

Every other definition of 'real music' is too narrow. That is what other nouns are for - the word 'song' is used to define music that contains lyrics, for example. But of course music can be something other than a subset of itself.

I don't actively listen to pop music. It's in the background, on the radio, but I don't listen to it. Most of the stuff today I don't find to be very good. Why do some people say that pop music is not real music? Because they don't like it. Because they are confusing 'bad music' with 'not music'.

The term 'real music' shouldn't exist. The first word is entirely redundant. Having 'real music' implies that there is 'fake music', which is completely ludicrous.


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Old July 11th, 2010, 8:53 am
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gertiekeddle  Female.gif gertiekeddle is offline
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Re: What Do You Consider "Real Music?"

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Originally Posted by InnyBinny View Post
The term 'real music' shouldn't exist. The first word is entirely redundant. Having 'real music' implies that there is 'fake music', which is completely ludicrous.
I think it's up to people if they believe in the term 'real music' (so wouldn't call such an opinion ludicrous), but I agree with your statement 100%.

Music, just as every art, simply gets to know more and more forms of expression over the time. One might not like the one or other style, but I agree there is nothing else like music.


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