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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



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  #1241  
Old September 19th, 2015, 2:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Did Snape see random memories in Dumbledore's mind at the time? Would he have been able to? Was Dumbledore so weak that his mind had become completely open?

He could talk to Draco and do a good bit of persuading; he had the presence of mind to petrify Harry, so that he would be out of harm's way.

I think Snape and Dumbledore shared a moment of Occlumency conversation as it were, where Dumbledore probably implored Snape to kill him. I don't think Snape even thought at that time to peep into Dumbledore's mind, mainly because I think his mind was preoccupied with the act he was going to execute at that moment. To kill Dumbledore.

If Snape had a chance to peep into Dumbledore's mind, would he have?


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  #1242  
Old September 19th, 2015, 2:44 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I think Snape and Dumbledore shared a moment of Occlumency conversation as it were, where Dumbledore probably implored Snape to kill him.
He verbally implored Snape to kill him even though everyone else thought he was begging for mercy. It's certainly possible that Snape used Occlumency, but I really don't see the point of it. He knew everything he needed to know. I guess it's an Occam's razor kind of situation, to me. Why make up other explanations/theories if the one we have on page already explains everything?


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  #1243  
Old September 19th, 2015, 4:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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He verbally implored Snape to kill him even though everyone else thought he was begging for mercy. It's certainly possible that Snape used Occlumency, but I really don't see the point of it. He knew everything he needed to know. I guess it's an Occam's razor kind of situation, to me. Why make up other explanations/theories if the one we have on page already explains everything?
While the overall decision that at some point, Snape would kill Dumbledore had been made by both parties - I do think the OP has a point. I do not believe that Dumbledore and Snape chose that moment, because I believe Draco's success in bringing Death Eaters into the school was not expected by either of them.

We also know that Snape was always reluctant to kill Dumbledore. He had to be talked into it by Dumbledore initially. And even after he made an Unbreakable Vow to do it, he months later had a conversation in which he expressed that he still had reservations about doing it. In that very same conversation, we learn Snape is aware that Dumbledore is working with Harry on something, something very important that Harry will need to do.

The question Snape could very reasonably be asking himself on the Tower, based on what we know, is "is this truly the right time for Dumbledore to die, or does he need to finish this something so important he refuses to tell me what it is, first?" "Severus, please" is an ambiguous answer to that question.

We could also suppose that from long familiarity with Dumbledore he felt certain enough to make a guess. But I see in the description of his actions, the suggestion that he is looking to Dumbledore for direction, there. In the magical world of the series, considering the specific talents of both characters, supposing magical communication of some sort passed between them in this moment is not a big leap.


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  #1244  
Old September 19th, 2015, 4:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Or maybe it was just that Snape, faced with the task of killing his mentor - the last person he truly cared about - was simply loathing the fact that he had to do it.


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  #1245  
Old September 19th, 2015, 6:41 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Or maybe it was just that Snape, faced with the task of killing his mentor - the last person he truly cared about - was simply loathing the fact that he had to do it.
This. There's a parallel between this moment and the moment with Harry in the cave. Harry is described as "hating himself" as he force-feeds Dumbledore the potion. I suspect that Harry had a similar expression that Snape had. Throw in the fact that a killing curse takes an incredible amount of hatred to be able to cast it, and it's possible that this is the equivalent of Snape "psyching himself up" to do something that he needs to do but doesn't want to do.


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  #1246  
Old September 19th, 2015, 7:24 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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This. There's a parallel between this moment and the moment with Harry in the cave. Harry is described as "hating himself" as he force-feeds Dumbledore the potion. I suspect that Harry had a similar expression that Snape had. Throw in the fact that a killing curse takes an incredible amount of hatred to be able to cast it, and it's possible that this is the equivalent of Snape "psyching himself up" to do something that he needs to do but doesn't want to do.
I think so. Dumbledore was the last person Snape truly respected and cared for. His death meant the end of Snape's last claim to respectability and human decency; his last link to the "good guys." He was left "dangling on the arm" of Voldemort, as Dumbledore himself phrased it when he refused to let Snape in on what Harry's eventual mission had to be.


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  #1247  
Old September 20th, 2015, 12:03 am
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Re: The Lightning Struck Tower: Dumbledore and Snape's Unspoken Connection

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I don't agree , Snape knew from the moment he made the unbreakable vow that he would have to face up to killing Dumbledore someday. I think he was completely ready to carry out the task at hand .
I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. The above goes without saying and I don't see how it undermines my comment.

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I feel that there could have been some kind of mental connection between them at that moment .Perhaps he saw something in Dumbledore's mind that upset or shocked him at that exact moment and he slipped and let it show on his face.
I just don't think a mental connection is necessary. Snape walks in, a DE says Draco can't do it, followed by Dumbledore's plea -- AVADA KADAVRA!!!

I agree with Sereens -- Occam's Razor is often the best answer.


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  #1248  
Old September 20th, 2015, 1:23 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
Or maybe it was just that Snape, faced with the task of killing his mentor - the last person he truly cared about - was simply loathing the fact that he had to do it.
I'm not sure that Snape cared about Dumbledore. Respect, yes, I think that Snape respected Dumbledore's skill and talent, and of course his resolute fight against Voldemort. But in my opinion, the only person Snape ever cared about was Lily. I'm not sure he even liked himself.


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  #1249  
Old September 20th, 2015, 2:26 am
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Re: The Lightning Struck Tower: Dumbledore and Snape's Unspoken Connection

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. The above goes without saying and I don't see how it undermines my comment.



I just don't think a mental connection is necessary. Snape walks in, a DE says Draco can't do it, followed by Dumbledore's plea -- AVADA KADAVRA!!!

I agree with Sereens -- Occam's Razor is often the best answer.
The part I was disagreeing about was ,I believed that when Snape walked out the door, he knew he was there to kill Dumbledore even if Draco was ready to do it . Snape I think would have stopped Draco and done it himself to keep Draco from tearing his soul.


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  #1250  
Old September 24th, 2015, 7:09 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I think it would be natural for Snape to perform Legilimency on Dumbledore when he arrived on the scene. I don't think Dumbledore would have shown him any memory though because it could have been seen by other members of the death eaters there. If anything was shown, it would be an ambiguous scene which Snape would recognise but the death eaters couldn't. Perhaps the one where Dumbledore asks him to kill him or the other one where Snape gets angry.

Personally, I don't think Dumbledore showed him anything. He would have been employing Occlumency blocking all attempts at Legilimency.

I'd love to have Jo write that scene from Dumbledore's perspective. It has always fascinated me. What must have been going through his mind?

So here was Dumbledore, wandless and physically weak, cornered by Draco. He has no idea what is going on inside the castle. He'd just re-experienced a traumatic childhood event. He had a horcrux in his pocket and Harry in a petrified state near him. He still had one more thing to teach Harry - how to destroy a horcrux. His Elder Wand plan had gone up in smoke. He couldn't have Draco kill him because he wanted Snape to do the deed in order to cement loyalty to Voldemort. Dumbledore _needed_ Snape at Hogwarts the following term. If Draco was unable to do it, then Snape had to or the Unforgivable Curse would kick in. What would have happened if the Order had managed to beat the DE? What if the DE won and one of them decided to do the job himself? All of Dumbledore's plans were hanging by a thread. He must have felt immense relief when he saw Snape appear.


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