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The Trio - Group Character Analysis



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  #81  
Old July 17th, 2013, 4:28 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
I'm not saying we can all justify up reasons for why they do what they do, I'm saying that in Harry's case the series ITSELF goes out of its way to justify Harry's actions instead of just accepting that they're bad things.
I didn't get that impression while reading the books. There's always a reason for so-called flawed behavior by Hermione, Ron or Harry -- I don't think the book would be very enjoyable if we weren't let in on the reasons the characters are struggling. Each of the trio has flaws, as do all human beings. I also disagree with your view of the author's writing, but that is a topic for another thread.


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  #82  
Old July 17th, 2013, 9:04 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I'm not saying we can all justify up reasons for why they do what they do, I'm saying that in Harry's case the series ITSELF goes out of its way to justify Harry's actions instead of just accepting that they're bad things.
No, you're not saying we can all justify up reasons for what they do. I'm saying it. You're saying it's wrong to do it for Harry, am I right on that? I'm saying we can do that for all the characters so it's not wrong to do that for Harry.


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  #83  
Old July 18th, 2013, 2:08 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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No, you're not saying we can all justify up reasons for what they do. I'm saying it. You're saying it's wrong to do it for Harry, am I right on that? I'm saying we can do that for all the characters so it's not wrong to do that for Harry.
I'm saying we don't have to do it for Harry, because the series itself always went out of its way to portray him as always being in the right no matter what.


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  #84  
Old July 18th, 2013, 5:20 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I'm saying we don't have to do it for Harry, because the series itself always went out of its way to portray him as always being in the right no matter what.
That isn't supported in canon. There are numerous times where we're shown Harry was completely wrong. Same with Ron, same with Hermione. Even Dumbledore.


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  #85  
Old July 18th, 2013, 5:58 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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That isn't supported in canon. There are numerous times where we're shown Harry was completely wrong.
When? Even when he gets mad at Dumbledore at the end of OOTP and throws a hissy fit DD more or less takes all the blame and justifies how Harry had been acting throughout the book.


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  #86  
Old July 18th, 2013, 9:34 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

He's wrong about Professor Snape in the first book - he thinks it is Snape who is trying to kill him at the Quidditch match - he is most surprised when he finds out that it was Quirrell who was trying to kill him and Snape was trying to save him:-"Snape was trying to save me?"

There are other instances of Harry being completely wrong about Severus in the series - it is not a one-off!


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  #87  
Old July 19th, 2013, 5:22 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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He's wrong about Professor Snape in the first book - he thinks it is Snape who is trying to kill him at the Quidditch match - he is most surprised when he finds out that it was Quirrell who was trying to kill him and Snape was trying to save him:-"Snape was trying to save me?"

There are other instances of Harry being completely wrong about Severus in the series - it is not a one-off!
Yep. And Harry thought that Snape was after the Stone. And he got tricked by Draco (midnight duel) even though Hermione tried to warn him. And on and on throughout the series. Each of the trio makes mistakes and uses poor judgement at times.


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  #88  
Old July 19th, 2013, 4:37 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

I don't mean being factually wrong (which is fine, given that they're kids trying to solve mysteries) due to lack of clues and all that. I'm talking about personal failings, personality flaws, etc.

Harry doesn't really have many, because in many ways he's not really a character, he's an archetype.


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Old July 20th, 2013, 5:58 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I don't mean being factually wrong (which is fine, given that they're kids trying to solve mysteries) due to lack of clues and all that. I'm talking about personal failings, personality flaws, etc.

Harry doesn't really have many, because in many ways he's not really a character, he's an archetype.
Of course Harry has flaws. He has a very difficult time trusting people and talking about his feelings which is isolating, problems he's still struggling with through book 5, and doesn't really resolve until book 7. He has a tendency to act before thinking, sometimes OK, but not always a positive outcome. He has bad study habits just like Ron. Etc.


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  #90  
Old July 20th, 2013, 6:22 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

And unfortunately, instead of being rightfully seen as flaws those are considered to be "Heroic Failings", "Not wanting to get close since that'll endanger them" things, "Hero Syndrome", etc. Not truly 100% negative things.

I'm talking fully negative things, like jealousy or misdirected anger or spitefulness (to folks who don't really deserve it) and for said characters to be fully called out on these moral failings.

We got some of this in OOTP, but unfortunately it wasn't focused on very much and was dropped too fast.



Last edited by ShadowSonic; July 20th, 2013 at 6:43 am.
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  #91  
Old July 21st, 2013, 12:16 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
...

I'm talking fully negative things, like jealousy or misdirected anger or spitefulness (to folks who don't really deserve it) and for said characters to be fully called out on these moral failings.

...
What about his jealousy of Dean Thomas? His misdirected anger at Snape, and to a lesser degree, at Dumbledore? What about his spitefulness toward Cedric Diggory and Cho Chang?



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  #92  
Old July 21st, 2013, 12:38 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
What about his jealousy of Dean Thomas?
Not portrayed as a negative thing, and it's resolved too quickly to really register.

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His misdirected anger at Snape, and to a lesser degree, at Dumbledore?
Until the last book, the series semi-justifies Harry's negativity towards Snape and by the time Harry learns the truth it jumps right to 19 years later wherein any shame or bad feelings Harry had over Snape have been all settled off-page.

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What about his spitefulness toward Cedric Diggory and Cho Chang
There isn't enough focus given to Harry's negative feelings towards Cedric, and then he's killed off and Harry suddenly starts feeling awful over a guy he barely knew, and the series again presents him as being justified in being angry at Cho for sticking up for Marietta even though his arguments aren't that convincing.

I'm talking about consistent negative traits that are prevalent throughout the series, not minor things that go nowhere (or are considered good things by the series).



Last edited by ShadowSonic; July 21st, 2013 at 2:09 am.
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  #93  
Old July 21st, 2013, 5:17 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I'm talking about consistent negative traits that are prevalent throughout the series, not minor things that go nowhere (or are considered good things by the series).
I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting that you feel the flaws should be "prevalent throuighout the series", because many of them are. It seems as though you're expressing dissatisfaction with the way the author wrote the characters and would rather have the entire series re-written.

Each character in the trio has flaws and issues. Hermione is bossy, she relies too much on books and has issues straying from the accepted standard (potions class in HBP is an example). Ron set a huge goal for himself and seems to think he's a faliure because he doesn't get instant results, making him feel more insecure all the time. Harry has trust issues, at times even with Hermione & Ron, and often acts before thinking things through. Just a few examples.


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  #94  
Old July 21st, 2013, 5:34 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

I disagree, I feel that for much of the series Harry and Hermione are given Informed Flaws. We hear about them, but they never really enter into the series or their characterizations in major ways that cause major problems or cause real conflict between any of the characters. The only one to initiate any conflicts is Ron, and I think it's overdone and unfair to keep saddling him with this role.

Anytime Harry or Hermione's minor flaws cause any trouble, the plot goes out of its way to justify them and whitewash them instead of portraying them as 3-Dimensional characters who cause problems as much as anything else.

If Harry's trust issues led to conflict within the Trio, with him causing Ron and Hermione problems and this being something he struggles with and causes problems with other people throughout the series, then I'd see him as a flawed person. But this rarely comes up or causes problems.

If Hermione's snobbery and arrogance caused problems or had her strain her relationships with Harry, or have her oppose him, then that'd be a representation of a personal problem. But aside from one minor incident in POA it never happens.

The problem with this viewpoint of mine is that it's incompatible with how Children's Books are written, since most characters there are Mary Sues/Marty Stus.



Last edited by ShadowSonic; July 21st, 2013 at 5:36 am.
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  #95  
Old July 21st, 2013, 7:25 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I disagree, I feel that for much of the series Harry and Hermione are given Informed Flaws. We hear about them, but they never really enter into the series or their characterizations in major ways that cause major problems or cause real conflict between any of the characters. The only one to initiate any conflicts is Ron, and I think it's overdone and unfair to keep saddling him with this role.

Anytime Harry or Hermione's minor flaws cause any trouble, the plot goes out of its way to justify them and whitewash them instead of portraying them as 3-Dimensional characters who cause problems as much as anything else.

If Harry's trust issues led to conflict within the Trio, with him causing Ron and Hermione problems and this being something he struggles with and causes problems with other people throughout the series, then I'd see him as a flawed person. But this rarely comes up or causes problems.

If Hermione's snobbery and arrogance caused problems or had her strain her relationships with Harry, or have her oppose him, then that'd be a representation of a personal problem. But aside from one minor incident in POA it never happens.

The problem with this viewpoint of mine is that it's incompatible with how Children's Books are written, since most characters there are Mary Sues/Marty Stus.
Hermione's snobbery?

IMO the books stopped being children's books around about GOF what with what's his name's return and Cedric's death.


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  #96  
Old July 21st, 2013, 9:57 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
I disagree, I feel that for much of the series Harry and Hermione are given Informed Flaws. We hear about them, but they never really enter into the series or their characterizations in major ways that cause major problems or cause real conflict between any of the characters. The only one to initiate any conflicts is Ron, and I think it's overdone and unfair to keep saddling him with this role.
Why? I actually find it realistic. If all the characters had flaws which caused conflicts within the group, I would find that unbelievable and unrealistic. In my experience there is usually one person within a group, who is mostly the cause the conflicts within that group.



Quote:
If Harry's trust issues led to conflict within the Trio, with him causing Ron and Hermione problems and this being something he struggles with and causes problems with other people throughout the series, then I'd see him as a flawed person.

Flaws take many forms, they don't have to initiate conflict but they are still flaws. Harry's arrogance, not listening to anyone else, his jumping feet first without thinking things through; these are character flaws.




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If Hermione's snobbery and arrogance caused problems or had her strain her relationships with Harry, or have her oppose him, then that'd be a representation of a personal problem. But aside from one minor incident in POA it never happens.
I think we see in PS/SS that Hermione has character flaws causing problems that are preventing her from making friends.

PS/SS, Hallowe'en'She must have noticed she's got no friends.'



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; July 21st, 2013 at 10:07 am.
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  #97  
Old July 21st, 2013, 12:19 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I think we see in PS/SS that Hermione has character flaws causing problems that are preventing her from making friends.
I actually agree wih ShadowSonic about Hermione. She is presented in PS as having flaws and has to overcome her bosiness and love of rules, but after that her character development stops and she just becomes smarter and smarter. I don't think she lacks flaws at all, but I think her flaws are never presented as something serious which she has to grow out of. Instead the author uses her as her avatar and makes her right in most cases.

Ron on the other hand is actually the best developed character of the Trio. He has believable flaws, he is relatable and he is given enough background story for us to understand where his insecurities come from. He is also given the moment with the Locket, in which he is forced to confront his fears and overcome his insecurities. Harry is somewhere in between Hermione and Ron. He's not as perfect as Hermione, but neither is he as flawed as Ron. His problems are mainly his saving people thing and the fact that he acts before he thinks. He's not perfect by any means but I don't think he's shown to learn much from his mistakes either. For example, the thing with the connection between him and Voldemort leads him to endanger Sirius and others in OotP, but in DH it's suddenly a great advantage.


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Old July 22nd, 2013, 6:34 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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He's not perfect by any means but I don't think he's shown to learn much from his mistakes either. For example, the thing with the connection between him and Voldemort leads him to endanger Sirius and others in OotP, but in DH it's suddenly a great advantage.
Sorry, but how is Harry getting tricked by Voldemort in OOTP a flaw? It was just as real to him as the vision where he saw Arthur attacked and that was true. And I disagree that Harry didn't learn from that mistake -- he certainly did, and used what he saw to help him understand what Voldemort was doing. And as Dumbledore told Harry after OOTP, he expected that Voldemort was no longer trying to use the connection because Harry could access his thoughts & feelings, so the only time it happened was when Voldy's emotions were out of control. Harry used that situation to his advantage, and I think, rightly so.


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  #99  
Old July 22nd, 2013, 6:46 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Sorry, but how is Harry getting tricked by Voldemort in OOTP a flaw?
It's not, which just adds to how Harry isn't written as a very flawed character, which is to his detriment.

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And I disagree that Harry didn't learn from that mistake -- he certainly did, and used what he saw to help him understand what Voldemort was doing.
Which does little for the other things he did that led to what happened, IE his hero/martyr syndrome and not thinking things through.

Which fits what Sereena is saying, neither Harry nor Hermione have to overcome or confront their flaws much. Which makes them less whole characters, compared to Ron or Neville or any of the more human characters.


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Old July 22nd, 2013, 10:45 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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It's not, which just adds to how Harry isn't written as a very flawed character, which is to his detriment.
Harry has loads of flaws and the fandom, it seems to me, is not exactly shy about pointing these out! (Just consider the criticism poor Harry gets from fans for his anger in OotP, despite this being a believable reaction to having been tortured by Voldemort the previous summer ...!) His temper, his tendency at times to be arrogant and judgmental, his tendency to withdraw emotionally from his loved ones, his rashness ... all these, along with Harry's many good points, make him a thoroughly believable and rounded character.

Quote:
Which fits what Sereena is saying, neither Harry nor Hermione have to overcome or confront their flaws much. Which makes them less whole characters, compared to Ron or Neville or any of the more human characters.
A 'less whole' character is not the same thing as a character whom one suspects the author indulges. I certainly don't regard either Harry or Hermione as 'less whole' than Ron or Neville.

I do think there is some weight to the notion that JKR doesn't always make Harry or Hermione face the consequences of their actions. For example, Hermione using the Oppugno Jinx on Ron's face - why is that kind of violence acceptable from Hermione towards Ron, when if the situation was reversed, it probably wouldn't be? And there is no authorial disapproval (in canon, at any rate) for Hermione scarring Marietta or for Harry casting the Torture Curse on Carrow.

But. Whatever interpretation we put on those examples, they don't make Harry and Hermione 'less whole' or less human than Ron. On the contrary, I think that each member of the Trio is an extremely well-written character, which is why all three are so beloved in the fandom, and why readers identify with them. (For example, Harry's character flaws echo a lot of my own.)

One of JKR's greatest gifts as an author is her ability to create vivid and believable characters. Harry as the central protagonist, and Ron and Hermione as his two 'sidekicks', tick all the boxes.


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