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Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis



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  #41  
Old May 25th, 2011, 4:43 am
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
I agree with you about how cunning and brilliant Barty Jr was and personally found it fascinating that he was such a good teacher and how he pulled the whole plan off until the very end - not to mention that his plan suceeded in getting Harry to the Graveyard with no one noticing and he would have been successful if not for the priori incantatem effect of Harry and LV's wands. What has never sat well with me was his declaration of innocence and then later contempt for other DEs who escaped punishment.
But then perhaps Crouch wasn't fully guilty. It is still debatable as to if Barty personally tortured the Longbottom's. He may have taken part in the kidnap but didn't necessarily expect or take part in the excessive torture. Never the less he was still a loyal death eater and I think if he was to have avoided Azkaban he would have returned on his quest to seek out Voldemort. Remember Sirius tells the trio earlier that Crouch was caught with a few Death Eaters who managed to talk their way out of Azkaban. That could mean Bellatrix initially got off by pleading innocence just like Barty attempted later. Should we put too much stock into his pleas at the trial? And hey what good did Bellatrix do for Voldemort, proudly sitting in Azkaban when Barty did almost all the work to resurrect Voldemort.

Honestly...I personally think Barty Crouch Jr would have been a better villain than Bellatrix. A lot of people will disagree but I saw Crouch as far more interesting of a character with a lot of backround that wasn't necessarily tied up before or after his demise. We never knew his true motivations for why he joined Voldemort. We never knew for sure what his part was in the torture of the Longbottoms and as to how guilty he really was. He was just as infatuated with Voldemort as Bellatrix and just as demented.

Bellatrix seemed one dimensional. She was twisted and cruel to the core, but what else made her that interesting besides that? Crouch was cunning, and brilliant and proved himself as perhaps the most intelligent and gutsy of the Death Eaters.

I feel like Crouch was more complex, more mysterious, and overall had more potential than Bellatrix.


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Old May 28th, 2011, 8:36 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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Well, there's where I beg to differ. I don't think it's a fitting end for any character, and I think JKR's main purpose here is to illustrate the horror of it.

Despite what Crouch has done, McGonnagall is so furious that she loses control completely. The castle has been violated by the Dementor's presence. And, as Dumbledore indicates, Crouch cannot give testimony. And consequently, it takes another year to convince the Wizarding World that Voldemort truly has returned - during which time Fudge's Ministry mounts a propaganda campaign against Harry and Dumbledore.
I agree. And it says a lot about Fudge as well. The lengths he's willing to go to, in order to hide from the facts. It sets the tone for the Ministry's actions throughout OotP. (And, I suppose, in a way, for Umbridge sending Dementors to silence Harry.)


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That's a possibility. We haven't even met Bellatrix yet - except in the Pensieve - and perhaps JKR felt the need to clear the space for her. But to some extent, I think it's a pity, as I think Barty is the more interesting of these two fanatically devoted DEs.

I understand why Bella needs to be in the plot. She's a Black. She's Sirius' cousin. She's Draco's aunt. She tortured the Longbottoms (but then, so did Barty). And she wishes she were Voldy's woman
Yeah, Bellatrix had the family connections that made her more useful to the overall plot than Barty Jr. Plus, she had the same fanatacism. I think, also, Barty was more cautious than Bellatrix - just as fanatical, but more careful - he knew that he could be of more use to his master out of prison than in it. He was more concerned with doing something useful than boasting about his amazing loyalty. Apart from the very end. But, he's able to put aside his feelings towards Dumbledore and Harry to play the part of an ally for almost a year.

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I don't really think Barty could have changed if his father had tried and spoke with him. I get the impression that he and his father never got on particularly well.
I don't think that would have helped. Barty was a DE, a DE among the few who had sought out their master, it's likely he tortured the Longbottoms. Talking and reasoning with him wasn't going to bring about a change. And, even at that, it's not clear whether Barty Sr. ever tried to talk to him, while he was under the Imperius curse.

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I don't think it really says much about Barty's character. Barty was impersonating somebody who many were scared of and somebody who was mad. He was also impersonating Dumbledore's friend. All of this just gave him advantages and made it easy for him not to be caught.
I think it speaks of his intelligence and restraint - he was able to deceive Dumbledore for almost a year, he was able to restrain himself around the enemy.

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
What has never sat well with me was his declaration of innocence and then later contempt for other DEs who escaped punishment.
I think Barty's captivity, both in Azkaban, and in his father's home, may have given him a different perspective - he may have been bitter at those who didn't suffer as he did. On the other hand, his anger at those who weren't imprisoned may be because they were free to seek out Voldemort, and never did so.

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Originally Posted by KDOG View Post
But then perhaps Crouch wasn't fully guilty. It is still debatable as to if Barty personally tortured the Longbottom's. He may have taken part in the kidnap but didn't necessarily expect or take part in the excessive torture.
I think he knew well what to expect - he was going on this little foray with Bellatrix - he surely knew her fondness for violence and cruelty. His behaviour towards Neville leads me to think he was getting some kind of sadistic enjoyment out of seeing the boy whose parents he had helped to incapacitate.

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Remember Sirius tells the trio earlier that Crouch was caught with a few Death Eaters who managed to talk their way out of Azkaban.
I think he said Crouch was caught in the company of people who were definitely DEs - likely meaning Bellatrix and the Lestrange brothers.


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  #43  
Old May 30th, 2011, 12:12 am
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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I think he said Crouch was caught in the company of people who were definitely DEs - likely meaning Bellatrix and the Lestrange brothers.
Nah. Sirius says Crouch's son was found with a group of DE's who managed to talk their way out of Azkaban. A little later on Harry asks if he might be innocent and Sirius says he was definitely caught in the company of people he'd bet were DE's.


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Old May 30th, 2011, 1:52 am
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

Sirius said he didn't know if Barty JR was innocent or not. I think even Dumbledore didn't know.


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Old May 31st, 2011, 9:56 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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Nah. Sirius says Crouch's son was found with a group of DE's who managed to talk their way out of Azkaban. A little later on Harry asks if he might be innocent and Sirius says he was definitely caught in the company of people he'd bet were DE's.
GoF, UK edition, page 458 The boy was definitely caught in the company of people I'd bet my life were Death Eaters -but he might have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, like the house-elf


Sirius doesn't mention anything about the people Crouch was with talking their way out of trouble. Considering the people and the crime that Crouch was tried with, I think it's likely that he was caught with Bellatrix and her group.

I think it was clever of JKR to have Sirius give the Crouch backstory. Considering the reveal about Sirius in PoA, it really opens up the possibility that Crouch was also wrongfully imprisoned. It makes the big reveal after the third task even more surprising, IMO.


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Old March 3rd, 2012, 3:23 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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Yeah, Bellatrix had the family connections that made her more useful to the overall plot than Barty Jr. Plus, she had the same fanatacism. I think, also, Barty was more cautious than Bellatrix - just as fanatical, but more careful - he knew that he could be of more use to his master out of prison than in it. He was more concerned with doing something useful than boasting about his amazing loyalty.
I would have to disagree. It was clear to me that he was simply afraid in the Pensieve scene. Voldemort wasn't even on his mind, he wanted to avoid Azkaban. And ít was sort of hypocritical of him that he then harboured so much hatred towards DEs who manage to avoid Azkaban when he also attempted to do the same, and would have done the same had his father not been so adamant about imprisoning someone over the Longbottom tragedy. Also Bellatrix didn't enter Azkaban willingly in order to boats of her loyalty afterwards, like so many fans seem to make it out to be. She was arrested and never denied her DE affiliation. That's different IMO. She didn't go to Azkaban because she wanted to or because she thought it would help Voldemort. Judging by what Sirius says, the quote that was posted in this thread as well, Bellatrix also tried to avoid Azkaban the first time around. After the Longbottom affair, it was no longer possible.
I do find Barty to be a very efficient villain but his characterization is somewhat lacking IMO. He comes across as a rather pathetic and frightened kid in the Pensieve, someone who hung around DEs to annoy his father, and appears in GoF being a mastermind supervillain... I just found it a bit inconsistent with what we had been shown before and I'm not sure how that transformation would have come about. At least Bellatrix was more credible in terms of characterization IMO.
As for Barty being around after GoF, I thought about it too but after all, there's no way he could have topped what he did in that book so it was probably for the best that he was disposed of (although I would have liked to see the Crouch family at least being mentioned again in an important context).


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Old March 7th, 2012, 5:06 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

To me, it seems that for years, Barty Jr., was what everyone would call a "good boy", highly intelligent, and eager to please his father. We do know that his father seemed very proud of the fact that his son had achieved 12 OWLS. It seems that his father liked to bask in the accomplishments of his only son, yet for whatever reason, I don't think he spent much time actually getting to know him. It could be that Barty Jr. did not feel a sense of worth to his father, unless it was by his accomplishments. I wonder if his father pushed him hard to be the best in everything.

I think he joined up with the Death Eaters to have a sense of acceptance, perhaps like some others I won't mention.

When he was sentenced to life in Azkaban and disowned by his father, I think something broke in Barty Crouch Jr. All the years of pleasing his father and doing what he was supposed to do, and suddenly, sentenced to life for the crime of association. Sirius told the trio once that many people went mad in Azkaban, and I think that is what happened to Barty Jr. He began to see Voldemort as the only sure thing he could count on, his own father had let him down. So began the manic devotion to his Dark Lord. He was driven by revenge against his father, who represented "the Establishment" that had so harshly punished him.

Sure, he suffered greatly in Azkaban, and of course he resented those Death Eaters that managed to avoid imprisonment and went on with their lives unpunished.

I just think that Barty Crouch Jr., as we see him at the end of Goblet of Fire, had come a long, long way from the screaming boy begging his father to have mercy on him.


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  #48  
Old August 13th, 2014, 6:24 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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I think he joined up with the Death Eaters to have a sense of acceptance, perhaps like some others I won't mention.

When he was sentenced to life in Azkaban and disowned by his father, I think something broke in Barty Crouch Jr. All the years of pleasing his father and doing what he was supposed to do, and suddenly, sentenced to life for the crime of association.
I think that if this was his line of thinking, Barty Jr. had a serious lack of rational thought. Maybe he joined the DEs to feel like he belonged, to be accepted - but they were doing criminal acts, destroying innocent lives. I have to ask what kind of person would feel a sense of belonging among such people? What kind of person would want to be accepted by the most dangerous of criminals? Barty was committing crimes. He wasn't imprisoned for "association"; he was imprisoned for being part of a criminal organisation and for committing crimes as part of that organisation. He wasn't an innocent - he was a DE. Perhaps he felt persecuted because he was imprisoned - but that's his own fault.


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Sirius told the trio once that many people went mad in Azkaban, and I think that is what happened to Barty Jr. He began to see Voldemort as the only sure thing he could count on, his own father had let him down. So began the manic devotion to his Dark Lord. He was driven by revenge against his father, who represented "the Establishment" that had so harshly punished him.
Perhaps this is how Barty felt. Perhaps he really was so self-centred that he could not see that his crimes had hurt other people. I think that the fate Barty and co. dealt out to the Longbottoms was rather harsher. However, I can see this as being Barty's line of thinking -that everything was unfair to him. The people he hurt were just a fleeting detail,collateral damage, didn't matter - a line of thinking necessary for a Death Eater, IMO.


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I just think that Barty Crouch Jr., as we see him at the end of Goblet of Fire, had come a long, long way from the screaming boy begging his father to have mercy on him.
I do agree with that. I think he had a long time to brood on his resentment and his version of injustice. However, I think the screaming and begging boy was no innocent, either. I think he had been put in a situation where he was forced to face the consequences of his actions. He was led in to the courtroom by Dementors - so he had already spent some time in their company. He knew the penalty for his deeds. He was willing to do whatever it took to avoid the consequences - begging, pleading etc. He was young and scared, but he was no innocent, IMO.

Anyway, I only looked up this page again because something occurred to me on looking at the Pottermore moments. This might have been blindingly obvious to others for a long time, but here goes: is it possible that Barty played Winky? Could he have deliberately played on her sympathies, so that she would ask Barty Sr. to let him out from time to time? Knowing that there were times when he was less influenced by the Imperius Curse, could he have seen this as an opportunity to escape?


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Old August 14th, 2014, 7:17 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

I don't think Crouch Jr signed up with the DE for acceptance into a group. The impression I get from him was that he was rebelling against his father. And what better way to rebel against him than join the very group that his father was fighting against. His father wasn't a very pleasant man either. He just happened to be working for the right side.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Anyway, I only looked up this page again because something occurred to me on looking at the Pottermore moments. This might have been blindingly obvious to others for a long time, but here goes: is it possible that Barty played Winky? Could he have deliberately played on her sympathies, so that she would ask Barty Sr. to let him out from time to time? Knowing that there were times when he was less influenced by the Imperius Curse, could he have seen this as an opportunity to escape?
I think so. I think Crouch Jr was going to take any opportunity he had to find a way out of his situation.



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Old August 14th, 2014, 9:24 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

I have a lot to say about Barty Sr which I will put into his thread. But as pertaining to Barty Jr. feeling neglected by his father and being under pressure to succeed to get attention from him...well I don't think we have any concrete basis for that. Barty Jr. was a smart boy. It may be that he wanted to succeed...not to impress Barty Sr (who was proud of him) but because he was naturally inclined to good grades. We don't know the fellows that Barty Jr. associated with in school. He struck me to be very much like Tom Riddle. Able to be charming and "normal" but hiding many dark thoughts. He wouldn't have necessarily have to run with pre-DEs in school to become one himself. Other than Bellatrix, who was in love with Voldemort, we see clearly that Barty Jr is deeply devoted to Voldemort. I don't think Barty Jr was making a father figure out of Voldemort out of neglect from Barty Sr. I think Barty Jr was already a psychopath and much in the way that Dumbledore found Grindelwald, Barty Jr found Voldemort.

I also think it possible that Azkaban scared BCJ less than we might think. We see in the series at least one mass breakout of Azkaban. And dementors are scarey when you actually have a shred of soul or sanity but if you are already crazy? It would have been much easier to try to go to Voldemort's aid, or continue his work, if he avoids prison. Who's to say that he wouldn't have been the next Voldemort himself if he had escaped prison? I would expect him to use every trick in the book including appealing to his father to avoid Azkaban...

Back to the dementors making him crazy or all those years under the imperious curse doing so...I don't see it. He pulled off a exceedingly complex plan to lure Harry away from school and into Voldemort's clutches. In fact the nature of the imperious curse is to impel you to do what you don't want to do. He didn't want to be normal or good. He wanted to be with Voldemort. Freed from the imperious curse he did exactly what he wanted to do all along.


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Old August 14th, 2014, 11:57 pm
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Re: Barty Crouch Jr : Character Analysis

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I don't think Crouch Jr signed up with the DE for acceptance into a group. The impression I get from him was that he was rebelling against his father. And what better way to rebel against him than join the very group that his father was fighting against. His father wasn't a very pleasant man either. He just happened to working for the right side.
Perhaps that's the case. I think either one is possible -acceptance or rebellion. Either way, I think it shows that Barty's attitude was one of utter indifference to the suffering he caused as long as he got what he wanted.

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Barty Jr. was a smart boy. It may be that he wanted to succeed...not to impress Barty Sr (who was proud of him) but because he was naturally inclined to good grades. We don't know the fellows that Barty Jr. associated with in school. He struck me to be very much like Tom Riddle. Able to be charming and "normal" but hiding many dark thoughts. He wouldn't have necessarily have to run with pre-DEs in school to become one himself. Other than Bellatrix, who was in love with Voldemort, we see clearly that Barty Jr is deeply devoted to Voldemort. I don't think Barty Jr was making a father figure out of Voldemort out of neglect from Barty Sr. I think Barty Jr was already a psychopath and much in the way that Dumbledore found Grindelwald, Barty Jr found Voldemort.
It's possible. There's also the factor that Barty was caught with Bellatrix - the most extreme and fanatical of the Death Eaters. Would she really have brought along an attention-seeking DE on so important a mission as finding out what had happened to her beloved master, rather than someone who was sincerely dedicated to the cause? Why was he with her at all when many of the other DEs had gone to ground? It suggests that he really was serious about it all and about his master.

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I also think it possible that Azkaban scared BCJ less than we might think. We see in the series at least one mass breakout of Azkaban. And dementors are scarey when you actually have a shred of soul or sanity but if you are already crazy? It would have been much easier to try to go to Voldemort's aid, or continue his work, if he avoids prison. Who's to say that he wouldn't have been the next Voldemort himself if he had escaped prison? I would expect him to use every trick in the book including appealing to his father to avoid Azkaban...
I would expect him to use every trick in the book whether he planned to seek out Voldemort again or whether he planned to lay low. It was just what the others did after all. However, I do think he intended to keep trying to find his master if he had avoided punishment. He was angry at those who did not seek him out, after all. I think his anger at those DEs who avoided prison may also have stemmed from resentment because their lies succeeded where his failed.

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Back to the dementors making him crazy or all those years under the imperious curse doing so...I don't see it. He pulled off a exceedingly complex plan to lure Harry away from school and into Voldemort's clutches. In fact the nature of the imperious curse is to impel you to do what you don't want to do. He didn't want to be normal or good. He wanted to be with Voldemort. Freed from the imperious curse he did exactly what he wanted to do all along.
That's a good point. He was very capable and competent. Even if the Dementors had affected him badly, he had had nearly twelve years under Winky's care to recover by the time he began impersonating Moody. And over-exposure had led to him becoming more and more immune to the Imperius Curse. I think Barty Sr. did not know what he was doing when he kept his son under the Imperius Curse - I doubt there were any studies or other known examples of the effects of being kept under the curse long-term. He doesn't seem to have expected that Jr. would develop resistance to it.


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