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Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3



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  #101  
Old May 9th, 2014, 10:52 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I see. Impedimenta, which is a brief jinx, as I seem to recall from when the trio practised it prior to the third task. Slows someone down or incapacitates them for a few seconds. I don't see how that could be synonymous with tying someone up.
They used levicorpus. Snape's own spell.

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I fail to see how "deserving" Lily comes into it, as she was not a prize to be won. She was a person, with agency and with feelings of her own, and she chose who she would be with, based on her feelings and values, not on who she thought was more "deserving" of a Lily-trophy.
I think that is an over-examination. While I'm all for Lily being able to be free to choose whom to befriend, there are certainly a case to be made that James (or Snape) didn't deserve to have a friend like Lily. It's not about her being a prize, rather it is about recognizing that SHE deserves better from THEM. Does that make any sense?


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  #102  
Old May 9th, 2014, 11:13 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
They used levicorpus. Snape's own spell.
Ironic.


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I think that is an over-examination. While I'm all for Lily being able to be free to choose whom to befriend, there are certainly a case to be made that James (or Snape) didn't deserve to have a friend like Lily. It's not about her being a prize, rather it is about recognizing that SHE deserves better from THEM. Does that make any sense?
I see, then it's about what Lily deserved, not Lily as a prize for the guy who "deserved" her. (And there is a difference -it's the difference between saying "I deserve someone who respects me" and "I deserve person X") IMO, Lily felt she deserved someone who respected her and whom she could trust. From canon, she certainly wanted someone who was on the same side of the war as her as a basic requirement. Not everything, but the most basic requirement.
And I think that once James had grown up a bit, he and Lily might actually have had a lot in common. Both were supportive of people who were underdogs - James, standing by Lupin, when the majority of the wizarding world would despise him because of his condition; Lily remaining friends with Snape, even after he began a descent towards crime. Both gave people a chance, despite unsavoury reputations -again, Lily with Snape; James, befriending Sirius, despite the Black family's reputation for extreme bigotry. Both were firmly against Voldemort, and willing to fight for what was right. And when James had toned down his behaviour, they may have had a similar sense of humour - Slughorn recalls that Lily was "cheeky".


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  #103  
Old May 9th, 2014, 11:43 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

[quote=FurryDice;6090380]
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Ironic.




I see, then it's about what Lily deserved, not Lily as a prize for the guy who "deserved" her. (And there is a difference -it's the difference between saying "I deserve someone who respects me" and "I deserve person X") IMO, Lily felt she deserved someone who respected her and whom she could trust. From canon, she certainly wanted someone who was on the same side of the war as her as a basic requirement. Not everything, but the most basic requirement.
And I think that once James had grown up a bit, he and Lily might actually have had a lot in common. Both were supportive of people who were underdogs - James, standing by Lupin, when the majority of the wizarding world would despise him because of his condition; Lily remaining friends with Snape, even after he began a descent towards crime. Both gave people a chance, despite unsavoury reputations -again, Lily with Snape; James, befriending Sirius, despite the Black family's reputation for extreme bigotry. Both were firmly against Voldemort, and willing to fight for what was right. And when James had toned down his behaviour, they may have had a similar sense of humour - Slughorn recalls that Lily was "cheeky".
Yes, and I want to make it plain that James and Snape put themselves in the running for Lily's affections and therefor were subject to her evaluations of them. That doesn't mean, however, that James or Snape weren't or shouldn't be, perfectly acceptable as they were to someone else with differing standards. But they chose Lily long before any possiblility of romantic interest on her part. Therefor she had every right to dissect their actions and find them coming up short. Much like Ginny chose Harry long before he had any romantic interest in her. If Ginny wanted Harry she would have had to display certain characteristics. That these characteristics came naturally to her was a bonus --- and made them a good fit --- but that doesn't mean she didn't have to meet certain criteria on Harry's part. It's worth noting, too, that many people evaluate their criteria after the fact. Lily did alot of this. Certainly Snape met alot of her childhood criteria -- like being a good cofidant regarding Petunia. But as she changed, her prorities changed, but Snape didn't change in accordance with those priorities even though she wished he had.


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  #104  
Old May 10th, 2014, 12:31 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I had forgot about Lupin's version of Jame's hexing. I do feel that was more due to being a toerag than picking on people because of their blood status or taking it to the level that it went to with Snape. Schools often draw crowds around fights so I don't feel that is indicative of much. *shrug*
A person doesn't have to have a racist reason to pick on someone for it to be bullying, nor do they have to take it to the level it went with Snape for it to be bullying, since there is a spectrum of bullying, IMO. James seems to have been one of the most powerful students in the school, so for most students he'd hex, especially if Sirius is joining him in the hexing, I think there'd be a power imbalance, and anytime there's a power imbalance between the attacker and attackee, and it's not self defense, I'd say it's crossed the line to bullying behavior.

Regarding the crowd around the fight, I think you may have missed my point with that. My point was that only some of the students watching were entertained by James/seemed to like James, while some others seemed to fear/not like James so much, thus I don't think he was quite as popular, in terms of being liked, as Lupin and Snape have claimed, and thus I think it totally plausible that he could do some general bullying and yet still be popular to the level/extent he was in canon.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I see. Impedimenta, which is a brief jinx, as I seem to recall from when the trio practised it prior to the third task. Slows someone down or incapacitates them for a few seconds. I don't see how that could be synonymous with tying someone up.
To be fair it does say in the text: "Snape was trying to get up, but the jinx was still operating on him; he was struggling, as though bound by invisible ropes." and based upon all the conversation that went on between the start of the jinx and when it began to wore off, I'd say it lasted about a minute (and I think the time can vary to a certain extent, depending on how much power is put behind the spell, although it's still pretty temporary). So, it would be a pretty temporary tying up and without rope burn, so I'd say incapacitated or temporarily incapacitated, myself, rather than tied up, but I see where they were getting "tied up" from.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I fail to see how "deserving" Lily comes into it, as she was not a prize to be won. She was a person, with agency and with feelings of her own, and she chose who she would be with, based on her feelings and values, not on who she thought was more "deserving" of a Lily-trophy.
I totally agree.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think if she had known, I think she would have known that it was going both ways and that neither of them was blameless.
At the very least, James could explain that Snape kept attacking him, if Lily didn't witness it. I think Lily would try and get James to stop the cycle of revenge (and only do self defense in the moment as needed), though.

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
They used levicorpus. Snape's own spell.
Ah, yes, or perhaps that is what UselessCharmMaster was referring to (it's a bit like tying up, like hanging someone by their ankle, and it requires the counter-jinx). Perhaps I was thinking Impedimenta because I've heard other people use the argument that it was like Snape being tied up, before.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice
I fail to see how "deserving" Lily comes into it, as she was not a prize to be won. She was a person, with agency and with feelings of her own, and she chose who she would be with, based on her feelings and values, not on who she thought was more "deserving" of a Lily-trophy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I think that is an over-examination. While I'm all for Lily being able to be free to choose whom to befriend, there are certainly a case to be made that James (or Snape) didn't deserve to have a friend like Lily. It's not about her being a prize, rather it is about recognizing that SHE deserves better from THEM. Does that make any sense?
I think it's best to word it as "Lily deserved better treatment" if it's about Lily deserving better treatment, then, rather than saying "James/Snape didn't deserve her" because the latter phrase is treating Lily as the object being deserved, which is objectifying wording, regardless of the intent, IMO. I get what you mean now, but I think it's better to avoid the unfortunate implications by wording it in a way that doesn't make Lily the object being deserved and instead makes the treatment the object being deserved.

Saying "James (or Snape) didn't deserve to have a friend like Lily" also avoids the objectification of Lily, and is a much better way to phrase it than "James/Snape didn't deserve Lily", IMO, but it comes off as being more about James or Snape, than Lily, so talking about what Lily deserved would be best if the focus is meant to be on what Lily deserved, IMO.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I see, then it's about what Lily deserved, not Lily as a prize for the guy who "deserved" her. (And there is a difference -it's the difference between saying "I deserve someone who respects me" and "I deserve person X") IMO, Lily felt she deserved someone who respected her and whom she could trust. From canon, she certainly wanted someone who was on the same side of the war as her as a basic requirement. Not everything, but the most basic requirement.
And I think that once James had grown up a bit, he and Lily might actually have had a lot in common. Both were supportive of people who were underdogs - James, standing by Lupin, when the majority of the wizarding world would despise him because of his condition; Lily remaining friends with Snape, even after he began a descent towards crime. Both gave people a chance, despite unsavoury reputations -again, Lily with Snape; James, befriending Sirius, despite the Black family's reputation for extreme bigotry. Both were firmly against Voldemort, and willing to fight for what was right. And when James had toned down his behaviour, they may have had a similar sense of humour - Slughorn recalls that Lily was "cheeky".
I agree, there is a difference between saying "I deserve someone who respects me" and "I deserve person X", though, and with the rest of this.

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes, and I want to make it plain that James and Snape put themselves in the running for Lily's affections and therefor were subject to her evaluations of them. That doesn't mean, however, that James or Snape weren't or shouldn't be, perfectly acceptable as they were to someone else with differing standards. But they chose Lily long before any possiblility of romantic interest on her part. Therefor she had every right to dissect their actions and find them coming up short. Much like Ginny chose Harry long before he had any romantic interest in her. If Ginny wanted Harry she would have had to display certain characteristics. That these characteristics came naturally to her was a bonus --- and made them a good fit --- but that doesn't mean she didn't have to meet certain criteria on Harry's part. It's worth noting, too, that many people evaluate their criteria after the fact. Lily did alot of this. Certainly Snape met alot of her childhood criteria -- like being a good cofidant regarding Petunia. But as she changed, her prorities changed, but Snape didn't change in accordance with those priorities even though she wished he had.
I'd say Snape changed, too, he was just changing in ways that were moving away from Lily's priorities, after coming to Hogwarts and getting in with the future DE crowd. I saw some positive character growth from Snape after making friends with Lily and before coming to Hogwarts, but he seemed to backslide and then go further back than he started, in many ways, and I'm sure Lily wished that hadn't happened. I agree that Lily wished he'd changed for the better rather than for the worse (or at least wished that he'd not changed for the worse).


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  #105  
Old May 10th, 2014, 4:39 am
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

Not many days ago Melaszka asked you all to cut back on the emotive language and reminded you that some of the discussion was off topic. As usually some of you forgot that quite soon.

This now is a reminder that all CoS rules still apply and those who can't refrain from character bashing and/or remember that Lily's character is the topic of this thread, not Snape's or James', do run the risk of being permanently removed from LS without further warnings.

I wouldn't mind closing this thread either.


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  #106  
Old May 10th, 2014, 1:12 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Not many days ago Melaszka asked you all to cut back on the emotive language and reminded you that some of the discussion was off topic. As usually some of you forgot that quite soon.

This now is a reminder that all CoS rules still apply and those who can't refrain from character bashing and/or remember that Lily's character is the topic of this thread, not Snape's or James', do run the risk of being permanently removed from LS without further warnings.

I wouldn't mind closing this thread either.
Well in that vein why don't we just move away from James and Snape for the time being and focus on Lily and Voldemort! One of the ways in which the Potters defied him thrice was that they would not join his cause. Then Lily again defies him when he tells her to step aside.

I could see the characteristics that Voldemort claims to like in James. But Lily? Her blood status alone would rule her out...we are told that she was very powerful and smart. But there were other smart, powerful wizards that he didn't attempt to convert. Was it something in her make up or personality that led Voldemort to believe she would step aside to let him murder her child? Did he think he could sway her because she was young? Or simply because he thought that she would selfishly choose her own life? Perhaps he never really had any intention of sparing her at all. Like Hermione did with Neville, Voldemort could have frozen her, or jinxed her in some other way, so that she would be unable to go for Harry. Thus he would have spared her life and killed Harry to boot..


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  #107  
Old May 10th, 2014, 2:26 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I could see the characteristics that Voldemort claims to like in James. But Lily? Her blood status alone would rule her out...we are told that she was very powerful and smart. But there were other smart, powerful wizards that he didn't attempt to convert. Was it something in her make up or personality that led Voldemort to believe she would step aside to let him murder her child? Did he think he could sway her because she was young? Or simply because he thought that she would selfishly choose her own life? Perhaps he never really had any intention of sparing her at all. Like Hermione did with Neville, Voldemort could have frozen her, or jinxed her in some other way, so that she would be unable to go for Harry. Thus he would have spared her life and killed Harry to boot..

I think we'd better bring this over to the Voldemort thread, which I've done here.

Regarding Lily, I agree that the text indicated that she was a particularly smart, talented, and powerful witch (and Voldemort likes those things).

PS: Feel free to bring any of my responses about James and/or Snape (sorry Alastor for making those responses here!) to the James and/or Snape threads, respectively, as applies - James replies (like the first two paragraphs of my previous post here) to the James thread, and Snape replies (like the last paragraph of my previous post here) to the Snape thread. Just let me know if you bring those discussions over, so I know to check the Snape and/or James thread for your replies, and I'll be happy to continue discussing James and Snape there with you if you like (and if the mods don't just want us to drop those discussions).


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  #108  
Old May 10th, 2014, 2:34 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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I could see the characteristics that Voldemort claims to like in James. But Lily? Her blood status alone would rule her out...we are told that she was very powerful and smart. But there were other smart, powerful wizards that he didn't attempt to convert.
Perhaps it was Lily's talent - she was surely one of the most talented of her generation - a Muggleborn who was invited to join the Slug Club must have displayed a lot of talent. (Slughorn expresses surprise that a Muggleborn should be so talented, so it's possible that for him to invite a Muggleborn to join his club, they would have to be far more talented and hardworking than their pureblood peers in the club.)

Aside from that, did Voldemort approach the Potters before or after they joined the Order? Voldemort may also have felt that it was strategic to have a talented Muggleborn as part of his crew - nobody would suspect her as a spy, and from his perspective, she would be unfailingly loyal out of gratitude for being not only spared, but included. He may have thought it easier to convince a Muggleborn who was in peril from his regime that they had something to gain from changing sides. IMO, Voldemort completely misread Lily's determination and steadfastness in her choice.

Quote:
Was it something in her make up or personality that led Voldemort to believe she would step aside to let him murder her child? Did he think he could sway her because she was young? Or simply because he thought that she would selfishly choose her own life?
I think my answer would have more to do with Voldemort than with Lily, so I'll reply to this point in his LS thread.

Quote:
Perhaps he never really had any intention of sparing her at all. Like Hermione did with Neville, Voldemort could have frozen her, or jinxed her in some other way, so that she would be unable to go for Harry. Thus he would have spared her life and killed Harry to boot..
He was considering it, which leads me to think that if she had stepped aside, he would have let her live. When Harry gets an insight into Voldemort's memories of that night, Voldemort considers moving her aside when she refuses, but then decided it would be more "prudent" to kill them all.


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  #109  
Old May 11th, 2014, 12:30 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

About Lily and the Slug Club. I assumed Snape had taught her some of his techniques years earlier, and this was how she became so good with potions.


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  #110  
Old May 11th, 2014, 1:58 pm
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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About Lily and the Slug Club. I assumed Snape had taught her some of his techniques years earlier, and this was how she became so good with potions.
I got the impression that Lily and Snape were both in pretty much the same class of Potion talent (since Lily continued to be an impressive brewer after splitting with Snape and Slughorn described her as having an intuitive knack for Potions, and since Snape continued to be an impressive brewer after splitting with Lily and was apparently in the Slug Club as well, since he was at that Christmas party with the other alumni, and became Potions master), with Snape being a bit more proficient due to Slughorn saying Snape was the best at a first time brew until Harry came along using his perfected notes to brew even better first time. I figure that Snape and Lily collaborated some, before their split, and were each talented in Potions in their own right. I think it's entirely possible they benefited from each other's input, just as it's possible that either Lily taught Snape a bunch of stuff that he wrote down and continued to perfect or that Snape taught Lily a bunch of stuff and she learned from that and continued to brew well and maybe come up with new stuff, for all we know. (To discuss Snape more specifically with me, please reply to Snape stuff on the Snape thread. I'd have replied there, but it seems equally about Lily and Snape so far, so I guess replying here is the thing to do, since there's no joint Snape and Lily thread, anymore.)

Regardless, even to follow brewing (or cooking) instructions really well takes some talent, esp. if one does it in such a way that it looks natural and effortless, so I don't think that's chopped liver, in terms of impressive talent.


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