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Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?



 
 
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Old October 9th, 2007, 6:33 pm
Avakadrakedra  Female.gif Avakadrakedra is offline
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Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Harry gets a formal letter from the Ministry of Magic repoting his use of underage magic. If it is true that underage magic is illegal, how come in COS after Harry's eventful journey to Diagon Alley where he then meets Hermione, she mends his glasses using the "Reparo" charm.

Yes, Hermione may be the best witch in Harrys year at school but does that giver her permission to use magic out of school. or is the MOM losing its grip???




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Last edited by Avakadrakedra; October 9th, 2007 at 6:35 pm.
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  #2  
Old October 10th, 2007, 2:13 am
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Re: Underage magic;are the MOM really on top of it?

its diagon alley, no muggles to spot underage magic and magic can't be traced to one person, and there's tons of magic in diagon alley so it wouldn't stand out


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Old October 10th, 2007, 2:14 am
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Re: Underage magic;are the MOM really on top of it?

I agree, in places like Diagon Alley, the Leaky Cauldron, and Hogsmeade, there's no way to find out who preformed the spell, so anyone could, even if they were 11.


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Old October 10th, 2007, 7:23 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

I always thought that was the weakest law the Ministry (or JKR) ever came up with. The restriction of underage magic is presumably used to prevent accidents when unexperienced wizards perform spells. But it's nearly impossible to enforce that law. However, the main reason for this law is that it's used as a plot device. Without it, the Dursleys would have lost all their authority they have left on Harry. But the story still needed Harry to be in trouble with both the Dursleys and the Ministry because of that law.


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Old October 10th, 2007, 7:36 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avakadrakedra View Post
In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Harry gets a formal letter from the Ministry of Magic repoting his use of underage magic. If it is true that underage magic is illegal, how come in COS after Harry's eventful journey to Diagon Alley where he then meets Hermione, she mends his glasses using the "Reparo" charm.
Hermione did not actually repair his glasses, Mr. Weasley did.

The Ministry knows when magic is being perform in the vicinity of an underage wizard. Because Harry was the only known wizard at Privet Drive (and possibly Little Whinging), the magic was blamed on him. At Diagon Alley, there are so many wizards it would be impossible to determine whether the underage wizard performed it or not. The trace merely indicates there is an underage wizard at the place where the magic happened, not that the underage wizard actually performed it.


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Old October 10th, 2007, 8:14 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Mhmm, Diagon Alley is full of wizards.

that's why it's hard to track in wizard-clad houses/villages.

if the wizard/witch lives with muggles it singles them out but if there's magical influence on/in the house, it's hard to track.


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Old October 10th, 2007, 8:25 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

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Originally Posted by Martok View Post
I always thought that was the weakest law the Ministry (or JKR) ever came up with. The restriction of underage magic is presumably used to prevent accidents when unexperienced wizards perform spells. But it's nearly impossible to enforce that law. However, the main reason for this law is that it's used as a plot device. Without it, the Dursleys would have lost all their authority they have left on Harry. But the story still needed Harry to be in trouble with both the Dursleys and the Ministry because of that law.

I disagree that it was a weak law. In places such as Diagon Alley, the only reason why underaged witches and wizards shouldn't do magic is if they are pre-Hogwarts (which would be an unavoidable loss of control unless they got hold of a wand), since there aren't muggles in Diagon Alley. The law is actually quite smart. It could be tracked to people who lived with/around muggles, or people with/around muggles at the time. The law is really used to help enforce the Statute of Secrecy.


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Old October 10th, 2007, 10:28 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avakadrakedra View Post
In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Harry gets a formal letter from the Ministry of Magic repoting his use of underage magic. If it is true that underage magic is illegal, how come in COS after Harry's eventful journey to Diagon Alley where he then meets Hermione, she mends his glasses using the "Reparo" charm.

Yes, Hermione may be the best witch in Harrys year at school but does that giver her permission to use magic out of school. or is the MOM losing its grip???




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i think that was only in the movie, if you remember in the first scene of PoA, Harry is practicing Lumos by night, as an underage wizard, but CoS he gets in trouble for dobbys magic. ithink the movies tend to skip back and forth on that part of the books.

and yeah, in wizard inhabited places, they rely on parents or others to enforce stuff like that. they don't know who exactly did it. plus i think the law wasmade just to have more security from being discovered from muggles, not to restrict young wizards magic.


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Old October 10th, 2007, 11:00 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntricateLogic View Post
I disagree that it was a weak law. In places such as Diagon Alley, the only reason why underaged witches and wizards shouldn't do magic is if they are pre-Hogwarts (which would be an unavoidable loss of control unless they got hold of a wand), since there aren't muggles in Diagon Alley. The law is actually quite smart. It could be tracked to people who lived with/around muggles, or people with/around muggles at the time. The law is really used to help enforce the Statute of Secrecy.
This is how I always saw the law to work. To help enforce the Statue of Secrecy and also to make sure younger wizards don't pick on muggles. This would explain why Harry got in trouble for Dobby (Aunt Marge is hurt/affected), why he got in trouble for the Patronus in OotP (Dudley is hurt/affected), and why he didn't for the Lumos charms or other such charms done at 4 Privet. Tonks, Dumbledore, and the Weasley's have all done magic at that adress.


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Old October 11th, 2007, 4:11 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

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Originally Posted by lflores View Post
This is how I always saw the law to work. To help enforce the Statue of Secrecy and also to make sure younger wizards don't pick on muggles. This would explain why Harry got in trouble for Dobby (Aunt Marge is hurt/affected), why he got in trouble for the Patronus in OotP (Dudley is hurt/affected), and why he didn't for the Lumos charms or other such charms done at 4 Privet. Tonks, Dumbledore, and the Weasley's have all done magic at that adress.
Very good point i never actually thought about it that way. harry only got in trouble ih he was the only wizard there. but didnt get in trouble if there were older witches or wizards around. but if the mom cant detect who did it. then they cant detect if there is more than one witch or wizard in the house right. so there fore harry should have gotten in trouble for all the magic done at privet drive just because he lived there and the mom knew he lived there and didnt know that the other wizards and witches were there when they were.


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Old October 11th, 2007, 4:22 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

I think so but in magic families it is pretty nearly impossible to be able to tell who is casting the spells. As long as your in a residence. At least thats how I understand it. Ps: Has it ever bothered anyone else that in the beginning of the movie for PoA Harry is using lumos while doing his homework. Uh, hello, isn't the whole point of the beginning of the movie that fact that he ISN'T supposed to use magic and then he does when he blows up Aunt Marge. Wouldn't that kinda be blown to bits if he had been using Magic to do his homework all summer? Me thinks so!


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  #12  
Old October 11th, 2007, 7:23 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lflores View Post
This is how I always saw the law to work. To help enforce the Statue of Secrecy and also to make sure younger wizards don't pick on muggles. This would explain why Harry got in trouble for Dobby (Aunt Marge is hurt/affected), why he got in trouble for the Patronus in OotP (Dudley is hurt/affected), and why he didn't for the Lumos charms or other such charms done at 4 Privet. Tonks, Dumbledore, and the Weasley's have all done magic at that adress.
When Harry gets in trouble for Dobby, no harm is done. It was just a smashed pudding. The Masons, who were visiting the Dursleys, were upset by the owl from the Ministry. They didn't see any magic. I don't think that it matters wether someone is hurt/affected or not. It's simply unfair for those who live with muggles. All others could get away with it (unless wizarding parents turn their children in).


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Old December 31st, 2007, 2:29 am
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There is no contradiction with the Trace....

In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that the Ministry could detect that the AK was performed around the Gaunt/Riddle house area, but not who performed the AK. This lead many of us to (falsely) assume that magic can be detected in specific areas.

In DH, Moody explains that each underage witcard (witch or wizard) as a charm (the Trace) on them that detects magical activity done by or performed by people around them. When the witcard reaches 17, the Trace is gone.

These appear to be conflicting, but they aren't. As I have emphasized, the Trace can detect magic performed around the underaged witcard. Naturally, this is only practical around Muggle-raised witcards, otherwise they Trace would constantly be being set-off.

This is how Fred and George could get away with producing their products at the Burrow; the Ministry would assume Mr. or Mrs. Weasley had performed the magic.

When Dobby cast the Hover Charm, it set-off the Trace. Since Harry is the only magic person in the area, the Ministry assumed that he had done the magic. (Dobby "apparating" wasn't caught because obviously elves use different magic to "apparate")

When Riddle murdered his father and grandparents, the Ministry detected that the AK was cast by, or performed around Riddle. Since the only other magic person around him was Morfin, they are obviously going to suspect his over Riddle.

No contradiction here.

The only plot holes I see are that the Ministry did not detect Mundungus apparating or the Order performing magic in #4 in OoTP, but these were plot holes even before we knew about the Trace.


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Old December 31st, 2007, 4:24 pm
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Re: Underage magic;are the MOM really on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntricateLogic View Post
I agree, in places like Diagon Alley, the Leaky Cauldron, and Hogsmeade, there's no way to find out who preformed the spell, so anyone could, even if they were 11.
I think about underage magic, as long as it's controlled somehow it wouldn't really matter unless someone saw it. Wizarding households make sure their kids don't do magic, but mostly for reasons like to make sure it's not dangerous, but besides that, there's not much of a problem with underage magic if no one sees it. The reason for the trace is because that the MoM thinks that they aren't responsible enough to hide it like grown wizards are.


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Old December 31st, 2007, 5:35 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

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Originally Posted by magic_is_might View Post
i think that was only in the movie, if you remember in the first scene of PoA, Harry is practicing Lumos by night, as an underage wizard, but CoS he gets in trouble for dobbys magic. ithink the movies tend to skip back and forth on that part of the books.
Yes me too. In fact Harry doesn't even get a letter from the MoM about Dobby's magic in the movie.


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Old January 1st, 2008, 8:09 am
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

I think this was to keep underaged wizards from doing magic in front of muggles. Granted, many wizards do not live around muggles. But for those like Hermione and Harry, that would be a real danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoonyLuny View Post
Yes me too. In fact Harry doesn't even get a letter from the MoM about Dobby's magic in the movie.
I have only read the books once, but did he practice any in PoA? If so, that is a mistake there. Oh well, can't really get everything right. You would think they might have caught that one in the scripts for the movies though.


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Old January 2nd, 2008, 4:32 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avakadrakedra View Post
In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Harry gets a formal letter from the Ministry of Magic repoting his use of underage magic. If it is true that underage magic is illegal, how come in COS after Harry's eventful journey to Diagon Alley where he then meets Hermione, she mends his glasses using the "Reparo" charm.
As soon as I saw this thread, I thought of the exact same thing.

Did she do this in the book aswell as the film, because I know she fixes Harry's glasses on the train journey in the PS film.


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Old January 2nd, 2008, 9:07 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

The only thing that bothered me about the whole underage magic thing, and the trace, is that the MoM can't tell who does the magic or even what kind of magic it is.


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Old November 6th, 2008, 6:34 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

On the Hogwart's Express in book #1, Hermione claims to have practiced a few charms from her textbooks before. She was muggle-born, so she'd have been the only w/w in the house.

Why didn't the MoM bust her for performing underage magic?


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Old November 6th, 2008, 6:44 pm
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Re: Underage magic - is the MOM really on top of it?

Because she was really not literally going to Hogwarts yet. They might not have been able to tell that she was truly making the effort- and even if she was, their rules might prevent the constriction on the younger wizards, taking into account the relative lack of harm they can cause.

Perhaps? We can never be sure, but I always thought this might explain it.


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