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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14



View Poll Results: Did Snape pass Voldemort the information that led to Vance's capture and murder?
Yes, he told the Black sisters the truth and acted for the greater good. 14 13.33%
Yes, I believe he did. Dumbledore's orders. 19 18.10%
Yes. He cared about Lily and no-one else. 13 12.38%
Maybe. This does not become clear in the text. 47 44.76%
It is of course possible but he had changed so much by then that I don't believe it. 11 10.48%
No, he would not have caused another woman's death, no way. 8 7.62%
No, he was lying to the Black sisters to gain their trust. That's what spies do. 28 26.67%
Something else Moriath forgot to mention. 12 11.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #41  
Old January 26th, 2010, 5:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

What do you find most remarkable about this scene?
The fact that Snape jumped out of the window, and flew away.
How did you feel upon first reading it?
I was totally shocked at first, I thought for a moment there had he jumped for it like Harry, and then I was taken by surprise that he was indeed flying. I was also confused as to why he hadn't reacted to McGonagall calling him a coward, like how he seemed to be in an outrage when Harry called him that.

Study questions:
1. Do you think Snape wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
Possibly, I'm not entirely sure though. I'd expect when he met Lily in the after-life, or however you call Dumbledore's next great adventure, he would've needed her forgiveness in the way he treat Harry through the seven years, even though he had protected him all that time.

2. What do you think would Snape say about Albus Severus?
I don't know how he'd feel about his first name being placed in front of James' last name. It was a good thing Harry didn't use Sirius.

4. Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?
Nothing, I like his character just the way he is.

5. What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?
I don't know, I'm lousy at making predictions like these.

7. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I don't think so, I think he still would've loved her no matter what. If he didn't move on after her death, what makes you think he would if she were still living? I believe he still would've turned to the good side for her.

9. Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
Probably for the same reason why some of the other Death Eaters joined.

10. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
At first I thought it cruel and totally unnecessary that he had treated Harry that way. But when we find out the reason behind it, I guess it's somewhat understandable. I mean just by looking at Harry he was reminded of Lily, and that must've been hard for him, especially since she ended up with James. I'm not sure on Neville's part though, why had he actually treated him that way? Was there ever a logical reason?

14. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
I think to an extent. A part him would always hate or dislike him because of James and his involvement with Lily. But since Harry was Lily's son, I think somewhere deep down he might've cared.


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  #42  
Old January 26th, 2010, 5:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
then I was taken by surprise that he was indeed flying. I was also confused as to why he hadn't reacted to McGonagall calling him a coward, like how he seemed to be in an outrage when Harry called him that.
I think there were two relevant differences in the two scenes.

1) Harry is far more important to Snape, and
2) Snape was far more upset emotionally in the scene with Harry, since it followed hard on the heels of Snape's killing of Dumbledore, something we know now Snape was by no means eager to do.

I think he also had a year to get used to the new low opinion the other faculty had of him in DH.


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  #43  
Old January 26th, 2010, 6:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
[2. What do you think would Snape say about Albus Severus?
I don't know how he'd feel about his first name being placed in front of James' last name.
I think Snape would associate the name Potter with Harry more than James by that time and so I presume he'd be alright. Harry would be Potter said in a certain tone of voice and James would be Potter with a completely different tone. Albus Severus Potter would be in the same tone as Harry Potter IMO.


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  #44  
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

HANA!!! Welcome to the SNAPE thread...where you can say "SNAPE" all the time without getting weird looks.

Quote:
I'm not sure on Neville's part though, why had he actually treated him that way? Was there ever a logical reason?
I think the most popular two reasons were either because Neville was almost the Chosen One (and therefore Lily almost wasn't targeted) or because he continually manages to inadvertently coat the walls of the dungeon with whatever misbrewed concoction he had whipped up that day.

Personally, I tend to lean toward the latter. I see more evidence for the it, and Snape never hints at the prophecy being a reason or shows any frustration that Neville was not Chosen. But I do think the former is also possible.


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  #45  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:18 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Good point.

Of course, it totally was followed by a Lily-filled, dunderhead-free afterlife with the freshest Potion ingredients.

He's earned it.
I think Lily already had someone to spend her afterlife with.


[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Another way to look at it (it's how I feel) is that while Snape may have been fascinated by the Dark Arts and maybe hanging out with wannabe DEs, I don't think Snape was a wannabe DE himself at the time. Seeing the love he had for her, I can't believe someone/something was more important to Snape than Lily. But, if Lily's words are true then Snape did choose Voldemort over Lily and then chose Lily over Voldemort. I don't think it worked out this way.
Hanging out with wannabe DEs and having a fascination with Dark Magic is hardly healthy and it's easy to see why Lily wasn't happy about it.

Quote:
I don't think at that time, Snape was guilty of the things she said he was; yet sometime later, I think Snape made Lily's words come true. The reasons for that is unknown imo; I think it was a combination of his loneliness, the need to be accepted somewhere (I fear to write since he was rejected by Lily; for that could be taken as Lily was responsible; she wasn't imo); and he was also misled by what he could achieve as a DE IMO.

I see it the other way around, Lily ended the friendship because she couldn't accept the direction Snape was taking rather than Snape choosing that direction after he lost her friendship.

I don't think Snape renounced Lily, though I could say that since Lily was no longer in his life by her choice, he chose his way, or another way.

Quote:
I think it was ccollinsmith above who said that Snape had a 'little brother' relationship with Minerva. I agree, that's the way I saw it too. She must have felt devastated and betrayed by his apparent turning to the Dark side.
I agree on that score, I think they shared a friendly banter over the Quidditch Cup and House Cup, and on the whole got on rather well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Yes; I don't blame them for thinking so; as I wrote before, I thought they would have questioned that a little bit. Snape killing Dumbledore, I mean, not Harry's words.


What I am trying to say is that they are not doing just Snape an injustice, but their own leader, who meant a lot to all of them IMO.

In addition to Harry's eyewitness report, Snape pretty much confirmed the allegation by fleeing with the DEs.

Also, I can't see why people going through shock and grief would stop to think "Maybe this is all a big plan and Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him to further the cause". Fans were thinking that, the characters had no grounds to do so. When the initial shock of losing Dumbledore had worn off, they had to deal with a war without the leader of the Order, the only wizard who was magically a match for Voldemort. I think this is another reason why the idea that this was a plan never occurred to them - why would their side's most powerful wizard plan to be put out of action? None of them knew of the bigger picture and believed what seemed obvious. And he had been deceived before, by Wormtail. Add to that Snape played his part well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
But once he was there facing Voldemort, yes, he could have invoked Draco, but good guy that he is, he didn't do it.
Definitely comes under his credo in later years of saving those he could.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
[*]Do you think Snape wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
Considering that his actions contributed to Harry losing his family, I think he needed Harry's forgiveness, yes. He had done something that needed forgiveness. As for wanting it, I think he was more interested in Lily's forgiveness.

Quote:
[*]What do you think would Snape say about Albus Severus?
I think he might be pleased, especially as this was the child with Lily's eyes. Given how he is with his emotions though, I don't think he'd let on. I think he might make some snarky remark but inwardly be glad.

Quote:
[*]What would you say was Snape's relationship to other Death Eaters like? What about Order members (during the second war, which excludes James, Sirius and Lily )?
Before he turned against them, I think he got a sense of belonging from them a sense of feeling part of something big and powerful. I'd imagine he tried to cultivate contacts with them. After he turned spy, I'd imagine his relationship with them became more distant, and he would have maintained contacts but not been slow to insult them when he disagreed with them.


Quote:
[*]Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?
Like with all the characters, I don't want to change anything about Snape. He is who he is good and bad point alike. Changing parts of his character means he is no longer essentially Severus Snape but a fangirl version, imo.

Quote:
[*] What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?
I'd like to think Harry's testimony about his spying would ahve kept him out of Azkaban. I think he would have led quite a secluded life, to allow his wounds to heal. He didn't really get a chance to do that in his lifetime.

Quote:
[*]Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
He had turned to Dumbledore's side when Lily was in danger. I don't believe he would have done that if Lily hadn't been in danger. If the Potters had been safely in hiding, I think he would have continued working for the Order because he'd know what would happen if they were found.


Quote:
[*]Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
It shows his fury at Sirius in the Shack in a new light. As for his treatment of Sirius after that, not so much. After he knows Sirius was not the traitor, his treatment of Sirius is never again of the "I'll fetch the Dementors to suck out your soul" variety, more of the "We've hated each other for years and intend to continue that way" variety. Which is mutual.


Quote:
[*]Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
We see some signs of a dislike for Muggles from a young age - he tells Petunia he wouldn't bother spying on her because she's only a Muggle. He says Lily's argument with Petunia doesn't matter because "she's only a-". I think the key word is only implying that someone is less because they're a Muggle. He pauses before he can tell Lily blood doesn't make a difference. I'm sure a Prefect like Lucius Malfoy wasn't a great influence, either. I also believe he wanted to belong to something important and be powerful. I think he wanted recognition he didn't get as a student.

Quote:
[*]How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
It caused me to see his bullying of both boys in a different way. I think he despised Harry because it was for him Lily gave her life, and also Harry was a painful reminder of what he had lost, partially through his own actions.
I am quite convinced that Snape ill-treated Neville because he wasn't the one chosen. If Voldemort had chosen Neville, Lily would be alive.

Quote:
[*]What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?
I think it was a wake-up call for him, and he needed a major one. He acted to try to prevent harm to someone he loved and that is important. What concerns me, very much, about Snape, is that he passed on the prophecy not caring that it was going to cost a baby and his family their lives.

Quote:
[*]What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?
I think Snape was motivated by guilt after Lily died, and his actions show a huge turnaround in many ways.

Quote:
[*]What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Strengths: Determination, intelligence, love, courage
Flaws: Stubborness (flipside of determination, refusal to see Lily's point about where his life was headed), grudge holding, spitefulness, selfishness (not to the end though, but for a long time) early belief in pureblood prejudice

Quote:
[*]Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
I think only in the sense that he was Lily's son and he wanted something of her to live on.

Quote:
[*]Do you think Snape should have been sorted into Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
Severus wanted to be sorted into Slytherin. As we saw with Harry, the Hat takes people's choices into account. I think it took a Slytherin's determination to do what's necessary to fullfil his role as spy and do what he was called on to do, so yes he was correctly sorted into Slytherin, imo.

I can't see him being sorted elsewhere, he could have been an excellent Ravenclaw, if he'd valued his genius for itself rather than a route to acclaim. I don't think he would have appreciated being a Gryffindor or a Hufflepuff, imo.


Quote:
[*]There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
Snape's turning to Dumbledore for help was brave, even if borne out of desperation. Anything could have happened when he went there, capture, imprisonment, ambush. His return to Voldemort at the end of GoF and continued spying was brave, he knew what would happen if his Occlumency let him down for a second. His maintaining a front of Death Eater Headmaster was brave, knowing that former friends loathed him and he could do nothing to let them know that he was truly on their side - it surely weighed heavily on him, imo.

Quote:
[*]What line of profession would Snape have chosen if he had not had to stay at Hogwarts as a professor?[/list]
With his intelligence and thirst for knowledge, I firmly believe some kind of research work. He'd probably have made huge advances in wizarding knowledge, considering he was improving the potions in his textbook as a teenager.


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  #46  
Old January 27th, 2010, 1:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
I think Lily already had someone to spend her afterlife with.
People get cloned in Heaven, didn't you know that? Happy endings all around!


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  #47  
Old January 27th, 2010, 3:51 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I was surprised that he could fly without a broom. But, Severus was very talented, as we see from HBP, so, learning to fly from Voldy wouldn't be that much of a stretch for him.

I was frustrated that Severus couldn't reveal what was really going on and had to endure the loathing of people he'd worked with for so long, and, especially Minerva, who I think he was very close to. It had to be very difficult for him to hear her screaming "coward" at him and not be able to tell her she was wrong.



I haven't changed my interpretation since I first read it. It's still very sad.


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  #48  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:21 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I was also surprised by Snape flying. The last two books seemed to keep adding more super amazing powers to Snape's repetoir. I was really baffled as to why.

Now, after thinking about it for several years, I think it was to justify Dumbledore's trust in Snape. I don't think Dumbledore would have trusted him with so much if Snape had not been so super powerful. I think many people were shown to be morally stronger and more devoted to the cause than Snape for a lot longer than Snape, and there had to be some reason for Dumbledore to just put them all out in the cold. So I think Snape was made to have a power level that was on par with Voldemort and Dumbledore for that reason.


  #49  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:34 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I was also surprised by Snape flying. The last two books seemed to keep adding more super amazing powers to Snape's repetoir. I was really baffled as to why.

Now, after thinking about it for several years, I think it was to justify Dumbledore's trust in Snape. I don't think Dumbledore would have trusted him with so much if Snape had not been so super powerful. I think many people were shown to be morally stronger and more devoted to the cause than Snape for a lot longer than Snape, and there had to be some reason for Dumbledore to just put them all out in the cold. So I think Snape was made to have a power level that was on par with Voldemort and Dumbledore for that reason.
I don't think Dumbledore's trust was so much about power as about the depth of Snape's repentance from his Death Eater past. The power came out of that repentance, imo. It's fairly clear, I think, that the cringing Death Eater who met Dumbledore on the hilltop did not have anything like the power he was later to have after years of laboring in secret preparation for Voldemort's return.

Dumbledore trusted Snape, imo, because he related to him and understood him. Dumbledore had made a similar terrible mistake as a very young man, and it had cost the life of his sister. And like Snape, he turned around and used the rest of his life to try to repair some of the damage he'd done. He was MUCH further along the path than Snape, so of course he seemed more at peace with himself. But they are not that different in terms of making terrible choices in youth that they spend the rest of their lives trying to repair.

Nevertheless, it is true that after Dumbledore and Voldemort, Snape was the next-most-powerful Wizard in the story (of the ones who aren't locked up in Nurmengard, at least! ).


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  #50  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:36 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I was also surprised by Snape flying. The last two books seemed to keep adding more super amazing powers to Snape's repetoir. I was really baffled as to why.

Now, after thinking about it for several years, I think it was to justify Dumbledore's trust in Snape. I don't think Dumbledore would have trusted him with so much if Snape had not been so super powerful. I think many people were shown to be morally stronger and more devoted to the cause than Snape for a lot longer than Snape, and there had to be some reason for Dumbledore to just put them all out in the cold. So I think Snape was made to have a power level that was on par with Voldemort and Dumbledore for that reason.
I don't think Dumbledore would trust Snape, or anyone, for that matter, on the basis of how powerful they are. We see in the Prince's Tale Dumbledore's reasons for trusting Severus Snape- and they are far stronger reasons than power. I think for Snape's power to be an additional reason flies in the face of Dumbledore's belief that choices are more important than abilities. Yes, Snape was powerful and that helped immensely, but I don't think it had anything to do with why Dumbledore trusted him.


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  #51  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:42 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think Dumbledore would trust Snape, or anyone, for that matter, on the basis of how powerful they are. We see in the Prince's Tale Dumbledore's reasons for trusting Severus Snape- and they are far stronger reasons than power. I think for Snape's power to be an additional reason flies in the face of Dumbledore's belief that choices are more important than abilities. Yes, Snape was powerful and that helped immensely, but I don't think it had anything to do with why Dumbledore trusted him.
I agree. (see above)


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  #52  
Old January 27th, 2010, 4:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I don't think Dumbledore's trust was so much about power as about the depth of Snape's repentance from his Death Eater past. The power came out of that repentance, imo. It's fairly clear, I think, that the cringing Death Eater who met Dumbledore on the hilltop did not have anything like the power he was later to have after years of laboring in secret preparation for Voldemort's return.

Dumbledore trusted Snape, imo, because he related to him and understood him. Dumbledore had made a similar terrible mistake as a very young man, and it had cost the life of his sister. And like Snape, he turned around and used the rest of his life to try to repair some of the damage he'd done. He was MUCH further along the path than Snape, so of course he seemed more at peace with himself. But they are not that different in terms of making terrible choices in youth that they spend the rest of their lives trying to repair.

Nevertheless, it is true that after Dumbledore and Voldemort, Snape was the next-most-powerful Wizard in the story (of the ones who aren't locked up in Nurmengard, at least! ).
Many people were devoted to the cause though, and willing to lay down their lives for it. When Snape reveals that he has only "lately" come to save the lives of people that he is able to, and that his motive is still all about Lily, that made me see him as miles behind others that had always been willing to do the right thing-- for decades even. So I do think that power was a significant factor in Dumbledore's choice of who to trust, and the justification for Dumbledore to distrust his Order of the Phoenix barring the one ultra-powerful member.

I'd agree though that Dumbledore saw something of his situation in Snape's, and that's why he devoted so much time and resources to Snape's rehabilitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I don't think Dumbledore would trust Snape, or anyone, for that matter, on the basis of how powerful they are. We see in the Prince's Tale Dumbledore's reasons for trusting Severus Snape- and they are far stronger reasons than power. I think for Snape's power to be an additional reason flies in the face of Dumbledore's belief that choices are more important than abilities. Yes, Snape was powerful and that helped immensely, but I don't think it had anything to do with why Dumbledore trusted him.
In my view, more and more powers kept being added to Snape, especially in the final two books, and my question is Why? I don't see the point of Snape jumping out a window and flying away, except to emphasize how powerful he was. I feel the same about him being the powerful Occlumens that can stop the world's best Legilimens, a better healer than the trained healer, a better curse-breaker than the trained curse-breaker, a master duelist (okay, so he lost to a hippgryff-- but he did mop the floor with Harry), etc. I mean, why so powerful? And why does Dumbledore not trust anyone else in the organization he himself founded? I see their devotion to the cause to be just as strong or stronger than Snape's, so the only significant reason I can pinpoint for the trust is the massive power difference between Snape and everyone else (barring Dumbeldore and Voldemort, of course).


  #53  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:01 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I'd say "losing" to Bucky was an indication of restraint. (As was his manner of winning against Harry, and his "loss" against the teachers in DH).


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  #54  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:04 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Many people were devoted to the cause though, and willing to lay down their lives for it. When Snape reveals that he has only "lately" come to save the lives of people that he is able to, and that his motive is still all about Lily, that made me see him as miles behind others that had always been willing to do the right thing-- for decades even. So I do think that power was a significant factor in Dumbledore's choice of who to trust, and the justification for Dumbledore to distrust his Order of the Phoenix barring the one ultra-powerful member.

I'd agree though that Dumbledore saw something of his situation in Snape's, and that's why he devoted so much time and resources to Snape's rehabilitation.
Snape is known for irony. "Lately" to Snape actually could mean for well over a decade... and probably does, given that it's highly unlikely that he was watching people die in the years when Voldemort was not in power.

The point of his statement is not so much about duration but about saving people. He actively saves all the people he is able to - which is probably more than your average Wizard or Muggle ever does.

I think power was an almost non-existent factor in Dumbledore's trust. Snape was trustworthy. He was also powerful. But there are many powerful people who are not trustworthy. The trustworthiness has to take precedence over the power... or else Dumbledore is being every bit the fool that Harry and McGonnagall thought he was after the Astronomy Tower.

Also, I was not talking about being merely willing to lay down one's life for the cause. That's not what I meant by the quality of his repentance. Often the most trustworthy person is the person who has fallen and gotten back up and turned around... not the person who is in no need of turning around. Because of his past, Snape's commitment to righting the wrong done is as strong as Dumbledore's. And that's why Dumbledore trusts him imo.


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  #55  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:11 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I think Dumbledore may have seen Snape as more of an equal to himself in power, but like himself Snape wasn't out to use his power for world domination or something.

But I don't think that's really why Dumbledore trusted Snape. I think it was really more about Snape's willingness to grow as a human being and not just about the magic.

I admit I love that Snape has super-powers. I think of it more in terms of magical talent and ability. His relationship with Dumbledore is sort of one genius recognizing another. JMO


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  #56  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:16 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Snape is known for irony. "Lately" to Snape actually could mean for well over a decade... and probably does, given that it's highly unlikely that he was watching people die in the years when Voldemort was not in power.

The point of his statement is not so much about duration but about saving people. He actively saves all the people he is able to - which is probably more than your average Wizard or Muggle ever does.
I'm not sure that the average Wizard or Muggle is the typical Order member, though. Given what they went through in the first war and their willingness to join up again, I see no reason to doubt the average Order member's resolve and morality.

Quote:
I think power was an almost non-existent factor in Dumbledore's trust. Snape was trustworthy. He was also powerful. But there are many powerful people who are not trustworthy. The trustworthiness has to take precedence over the power... or else Dumbledore is being every bit the fool that Harry and McGonnagall thought he was after the Astronomy Tower.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that power was not important.

Quote:
Also, I was not talking about being merely willing to lay down one's life for the cause. That's not what I meant by the quality of his repentance. Often the most trustworthy person is the person who has fallen and gotten back up and turned around... not the person who is in no need of turning around. Because of his past, Snape's commitment to righting the wrong done is as strong as Dumbledore's. And that's why Dumbledore trusts him imo.
And sometimes the most trustworthy person is the one-- or the many-- who have no need of turning around and always knew that doing harm was bad and helping was good. That Snape first caused harm does not automatically make him more moral or resolved than the rest of the Order, and by such a significant margin that he is the only one worthy of being trusted. It is possible that Dumbledore felt this way, however, I grant you that.

But I still think it was Snape's great power that made Dumbledore trust him and distrust the rest of the Order, because that is the only significant difference I see between Snape and the other Order members.


  #57  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:16 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I admit I love that Snape has super-powers. I think of it more in terms of magical talent and ability. His relationship with Dumbledore is sort of one genius recognizing another. JMO
I'd go further than that. I think it's one genius helping another, younger genius reach his potential. I'm of the opinion that Snape probably spent a good bit of time in Dumbledore's office not ranting about dunderheads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I'm not sure that the average Wizard or Muggle is the typical Order member, though. Given what they went through in the first war and their willingness to join up again, I see no reason to doubt the average Order member's resolve and morality.
Who said anything about doubting the average Order member's resolve and morality? Snape has a different mission than the average Order member. I honestly don't think that Dumbledore trusted Snape more, as you apparently do. He trusted him differently. Trusting Snape does not detract from others. It's not an either/or.

And Dumbledore doesn't trust anybody with everything. He doesn't trust Snape with Harry's mission. He doesn't trust Harry with Snape's mission. Are you suggesting that some other Order member should have had Snape's unique mission? Who else in the Order would have been able to convince Voldemort that he was a Death Eater? I think we can assume that Snape trained hard for his mission and it's highly likely that this is what gained him so much magical power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
And sometimes the most trustworthy person is the one-- or the many-- who have no need of turning around and always knew that doing harm was bad and helping was good. That Snape first caused harm does not automatically make him more moral or resolved than the rest of the Order, and by such a significant margin that he is the only one worthy of being trusted. It is possible that Dumbledore felt this way, however, I grant you that.
Who said anything about him being more moral than anybody else? Dumbledore found him to be trustworthy because he believed that he truly had turned around and truly was committed to the cause. Dumbledore was correct. Why is this a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
But I still think it was Snape's great power that made Dumbledore trust him and distrust the rest of the Order, because that is the only significant difference I see between Snape and the other Order members.
I don't see that Dumbledore distrusted the rest of the Order. The rest of the Order had different missions than Snape did.


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  #58  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:29 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I'd go further than that. I think it's one genius helping another, younger genius reach his potential. I'm of the opinion that Snape probably spent a good bit of time in Dumbledore's office not ranting about dunderheads.
Yes, Dumbledore was certainly his intellectual mentor!


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  #59  
Old January 27th, 2010, 5:50 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Yes, Dumbledore was certainly his intellectual mentor!
And magical mentor, I think.

Where else would Snape have the opportunity to get practice in using Occlumency against a world-class Legilimens? And where would he have the opportunity to learn Legilimency? (I doubt Voldemort was giving lessons). It would have been quite foolish of Dumbledore to leave Snape's training in these areas up to chance. I would imagine he had a very direct hand in it.

Frankly, I am of the opinion that Dumbledore personally trained Snape for his mission, and that it was through his relationship with Dumbledore that Snape grew in power. If Dumbledore had been wrong about Snape's trustworthiness, it would have been catastrophic to invest so much in this young Wizard with a dark past.

The worst thing Dumbledore could have done was trust a very powerful Wizard who was not worthy of that trust.


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  #60  
Old January 27th, 2010, 7:20 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
Many people were devoted to the cause though, and willing to lay down their lives for it. When Snape reveals that he has only "lately" come to save the lives of people that he is able to, and that his motive is still all about Lily, that made me see him as miles behind others that had always been willing to do the right thing-- for decades even. So I do think that power was a significant factor in Dumbledore's choice of who to trust, and the justification for Dumbledore to distrust his Order of the Phoenix barring the one ultra-powerful member.
Unless you are thinking of a different conversation, that's not my interpretation.

Dumbledore asked Snape:

'How many men and women have you watched die?'*

And Snape answered:

'Lately, only those I could not save.'*

IMO that means he's been saving lives until he no longer could and had to watch them die. (I was thinking of Prof. Burbage, but this conversation took place before DD's death.)

*(pg. 687, DH US trade ppbk.)


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