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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13



View Poll Results: Snape's treatment of Neville...
was justified and reflects positively upon him. 3 1.96%
was justified but reflects negatively upon him. 5 3.27%
sits uncomfortably with me. 19 12.42%
was completely unjustifiable and should have been stopped. 49 32.03%
was completely unjustifiable but horrible teachers are part of life. 19 12.42%
cannot be judged objectively because we only get Harry's perspective. 36 23.53%
put Snape's worst instincts on display. 16 10.46%
does not justify a pony option! 6 3.92%
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  #81  
Old October 6th, 2009, 2:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
But it's interesting that you use the "knight in shining armor" line, since by DH Snape is carrying around a sword and hiding behind a suit of armor. No that didn't happen overnight, but to me Snape also did not change that much from Book One to Book Seven, since I believe his transformation was complete before Harry ever set foot in Hogwarts.
I think it is easy to forget that by the time we meet Severus in PS/SS at least ten years had passed since that scene on the hilltop.


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  #82  
Old October 6th, 2009, 2:22 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I think it is easy to forget that by the time we meet Severus in PS/SS at least ten years had passed since that scene on the hilltop.
Yes, and that's amazing.


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  #83  
Old October 6th, 2009, 2:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
But it's interesting that you use the "knight in shining armor" line, since by DH Snape is carrying around a sword and hiding behind a suit of armor.
Well, that's the power of the subconscious for you. I must have had that image at the back of my mind when I typed that.

I love that image of Severus with the Sword of Gryffindor.

Quote:
No that didn't happen overnight, but to me Snape also did not change that much from Book One to Book Seven, since I believe his transformation was complete before Harry ever set foot in Hogwarts.
I see it more of a gradual thing, myself, but that's just my own personal interpretation and, in any case, it doesn't really affect how I regard Severus overall. He and Harry are my favourite characters and nothing is going to change that.


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Old October 7th, 2009, 8:25 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
but to me Snape also did not change that much from Book One to Book Seven, since I believe his transformation was complete before Harry ever set foot in Hogwarts.


I also think Snape had already changed in a huge way by the time he came to Dumbledore. He had changed from being a DE! The rest of what Snape was as a character/person, was always there, even before he became a DE. He was brilliantly intelligent as the spells he created showed, capable of respect for others as his ability to keep away from Lily as she wanted him to after 5th year; his enormous strength and a sense of right and wrong which helped him change from a DE to something else IMO.


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  #85  
Old October 7th, 2009, 11:26 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post


I also think Snape had already changed in a huge way by the time he came to Dumbledore. He had changed from being a DE! The rest of what Snape was as a character/person, was always there, even before he became a DE. He was brilliantly intelligent as the spells he created showed, capable of respect for others as his ability to keep away from Lily as she wanted him to after 5th year; his enormous strength and a sense of right and wrong which helped him change from a DE to something else IMO.
I don't think Snape had any kind of sense of right and wrong till he started work at Hogwarts after the first war. At this time he was working with the other teachers who did have a strong sense of good morals. Up till then he was part of and a practising DE and I do not think that their sense of right and wrong was anything to emulate, Before that who did he have for an example apart from the would be DE's in Slytherin. There was Lily and his father. And what would he have learned from his father? How to abuse and dominate a woman. What did he learn from Lily? That some women would not be abused and dominated. He did try to dominate Lily, we see that in the memories when he ignores her opinion, changes the subject and tries to tell her that he won't let her do what he does not want her to do. Albeit these are small attempts at this time but that is how abusers start out.

I am not saying that he was trying consciously to dominate Lily, but that it would have been behaviour he witnessed and absorbed from his father. I don't think this was written into the memories by chance. To me it is a good example of how abuse can be passed down in a family. I think Snape started to see things differently and learned about decent behaviour from DD and Minerva. Here was a relationship with mutual respect and affection, so he could observe and absorb at a time when there was enough time to do this.

Imo, when Snape approached DD on the hilltop all he wanted to do was tell DD that Lily had been targeted and to beg him to keep her safe. DD at that time coerced Snape to spy on LV, which he agreed to do. I don't think he changed to the light then, but in a very real way he was forced to really observe what LV was doing and to perhaps re-evalulate the repercussions Of LV's actions, but I don't think at this time you could call him DD's man any more that Scrimgour was DD's man when he was MFM. Scrimgour fought against LV and died for it, but he was not DD's man in any way. In the same way I think Snape started to take baby steps toward the light, but he was not then the man who did not like to watch innocent people die. Bye the way, I do think that a wishy-washy way to put it. Hardly a strong statement of feeling is it? I think Snape really starts to change at the end of GOF. This is when he will need all of his strength and determination. He needs his convictions to crystalize and give him the courage to face LV in person and do his work as a spy. During the first war I think he could skate by. The reason I think this is that he did not find out Peter was the spy in the Order for over a year. That was the task DD gave him and he did not deliver on it and the Potter's died. Snape grief at Lily's death is very extreme. I just wonder if part of that was the fact that he didn't try very hard to find out who the Order spy was?



Last edited by eliza101; October 7th, 2009 at 12:02 pm.
  #86  
Old October 7th, 2009, 1:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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I am not saying that he was trying consciously to dominate Lily, but that it would have been behaviour he witnessed and absorbed from his father. I don't think this was written into the memories by chance. To me it is a good example of how abuse can be passed down in a family. I think Snape started to see things differently and learned about decent behaviour from DD and Minerva. Here was a relationship with mutual respect and affection, so he could observe and absorb at a time when there was enough time to do this.
In my opinion, child Snape was so grateful to have a friend for the first time in his life that he allowed Lily to take the lead throughout their relationship. The way he accepted her rejection after SWM shows a deep respect for her feelings, and a willingness to take the blame for what went wrong that is almost too acceptiing, given that I see faults on both sides.

To me, Snape learned that he didn't want to be like his father from watching his parents' relationship.


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Old October 7th, 2009, 1:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by Sly_Lady View Post
To me, Snape learned that he didn't want to be like his father from watching his parents' relationship.
I agree with this. I think Snape disliked his father's behavior above all things and would purposely attempt to avoid acting that way at all costs. However, I think Snape believed that his father screaming as his mother was the negative behavior - and I don't think he understood that the screaming was a form of attempting to establish control through bullying. In the end, I feel that when young, Snape adopted the control through bullying behavior, but without the yelling - and so he never saw it as comparable to his dad's behavior, although it was, imo. Later in life, when he got very upset, the screaming seemed to come naturally to him in his attempt to control through bullying (like in the shrieking shack and in the aftermath the next day, the pensieve scene, and his escape from Hogwarts, all emotionally charged scenes) - but by then I feel the distance from his father/mother kept him from making any comparisons in that regard. So I don't think he ever realized that he had adopted his father's behavior, although he did.


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Old October 7th, 2009, 1:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I don't think Snape had any kind of sense of right and wrong till he started work at Hogwarts after the first war.
I disagree. I think Snape had a deep sense of right and wrong and while that was ignored when he joined the DEs; I really cannot blame him too much, for the other side showed an equally callous lack of care for life (with reference to the werewolf incident, where in canon there is no punishment for Sirius) and a preference for Gryffindors that went beyond the ordinary, enough to let go of pretty serious offences.

It does not make Snape's choice right, but I think it makes me understand how a Slytherin could so easily choose Voldemort; there was nothing in Dumbledore's Light side to make them feel safe, secure or right IMO.

Once Snape realised that this choice was poor and that he should have never taken it, I think Snape woke up and from then on, he was consciously walking the right path and I believe this was before he came to Dumbledore on the hill.

Apart from joining the DE (which was a huge mistake and one for which he paid again and again), I cannot think of what else Snape did that was evil, DEish or wrong before or after he joined the DEs.

Quote:
What did he learn from Lily?
That sometimes people choose friendship over love, but at other times people choose love over friendship. That they could break the friendship of over 6 years for their love IMO.

But apart from this, I think both Snape and Lily must have learnt quite a bit from each other; they were together for 6+ years after all.

Quote:
That some women would not be abused and dominated.
I don't thinks Snape wanted to dominate or abuse Lily at all. Seeing how much he let go, when it came to Lily, I think Snape was quite happy to let Lily be as she wanted to.

I think that is especially seen when Lily tells him to go away and Snape does; even at that time there is no aggressiveness from Snape; he simply respects Lily's wishes, for he knows that she has already as she said chosen her way (James IMO) and Snape accepted it.

If, really Snape wanted to dominate Lily, I doubt that he would have left her alone when she told him to get lost; he would have come again and again and wore her down. Like James did, for example.

Quote:
Imo, when Snape approached DD on the hilltop all he wanted to do was tell DD that Lily had been targeted and to beg him to keep her safe. DD at that time coerced Snape to spy on LV, which he agreed to do. I don't think he changed to the light then, but in a very real way he was forced to really observe what LV was doing and to perhaps re-evalulate the repercussions Of LV's actions, but I don't think at this time you could call him DD's man any more that Scrimgour was DD's man when he was MFM.
I think the moment Snape decided that he would need to come to Dumbledore, he changed. He does not need to be Dumbledore man to change IMO. He became Dumbledore's man, much like Harry did, when he chose to trust Dumbledore on the Hill. But Snape changed the moment he realised his mistake; for it was because of that he decided to beg Voldemort and also come to Dumbledore; to undo it.

From that moment on wards Snape was no longer a DE. Dumbledore helped him by taking him away from Voldemort almost at once by asking him to spy for him; but even if he had not, I don't think Snape would have been a true DE, anymore than Draco was once he started putting the wand down, unable to kill Dumbledore IMO.

Quote:
That was the task DD gave him and he did not deliver on it and the Potter's died. Snape grief at Lily's death is very extreme. I just wonder if part of that was the fact that he didn't try very hard to find out who the Order spy was?
I don't understand. Why should Dumbledore set him with this task? When it would have been easier for him to question his Order members to flush out the spy; with his capability and his power and his prowess at Legilimency, surely that task would be easier for Dumbledore than for Snape to poke into DEs flush out the spy; a job in which he would have been caught and Dumbledore would have lost his man.


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  #89  
Old October 7th, 2009, 2:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
If, really Snape wanted to dominate Lily, I doubt that he would have left her alone when she told him to get lost; he would have come again and again and wore her down. Like James did, for example.
I feel that Snape's behavior in the DH memories did show that he was attempting to be domineering in their friendship. However, I agree that after it was ended he didn't attempt to do that as there was no way to achieve it seeing as they were not friends. However, I disagree that he left her alone after that - I feel that his hexing her boyfriend at every oppotunity showed an attempt by Snape to interefere in her new relationship. I also don't feel that there is any canon to evidence James came again and again, wearing Lily down. What canon are you basing that on?


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Old October 7th, 2009, 3:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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I disagree. I think Snape had a deep sense of right and wrong and while that was ignored when he joined the DEs; I really cannot blame him too much, for the other side showed an equally callous lack of care for life (with reference to the werewolf incident, where in canon there is no punishment for Sirius) and a preference for Gryffindors that went beyond the ordinary, enough to let go of pretty serious offences.
Well if something is ignored that strongly it might as well not be there in the first place. And I don't see any lack of care in regards to human life on the side of those who fought for the good. We don't know that there was no repercussions for Sirius, just because Snape does not talk about what punishment he recieved for breaking the rules. I think DD is shown to be to fair towards all the children at Hogwarts amd not to favour one house above the other. Such favouritism is not shown in canon.

Quote:
It does not make Snape's choice right, but I think it makes me understand how a Slytherin could so easily choose Voldemort; there was nothing in Dumbledore's Light side to make them feel safe, secure or right IMO.
I'm sorry TGW, but that is the strangest reason for joining a group of murderers I have ever read. 'Join us in our killing and we won't kill you.' DD did better than that when he spoke to Draco on the tower.

Quote:
Once Snape realised that this choice was poor and that he should have never taken it, I think Snape woke up and from then on, he was consciously walking the right path and I believe this was before he came to Dumbledore on the hill.
I think if Snape had felt like this he would never have given the prophecy to LV. That was not the action of someone who has a strong sense of what is right and wrong. Well, perhaps if you feel what is right is whatever that benfits you at the time.

Quote:
Apart from joining the DE (which was a huge mistake and one for which he paid again and again), I cannot think of what else Snape did that was evil, DEish or wrong before or after he joined the DEs
.

And that to me is more than enough to prove that Snape did at least 2 evil acts. Canon is silent except about the prophecy handover and the fact that Snape was trying to get a position at Hogwarts where he could spy on DD and the Order.

Quote:
That sometimes people choose friendship over love, but at other times people choose love over friendship. That they could break the friendship of over 6 years for their love IMO.
Now I see it as Lily not standing to be insulted by her best friend and who has confirmed to her by his silence that he is going to join an evil cult whose main purpose in existing is to kill her and others like her. I also see her as a strong girl who would not let the fact that she had loved this boy as a friend for 6 years sway her and was going to go on with her life after his betrayal.



Quote:
I don't thinks Snape wanted to dominate or abuse Lily at all. Seeing how much he let go, when it came to Lily, I think Snape was quite happy to let Lily be as she wanted to.
I think Snape's unconsious use of domineering tactics show quite clearly that he did try to control Lily. If he had been so happy to let her go, he would not have hexed James at every opportunity in 7th year, when Lily went out with him. There are many ways to try to control someone. The fact that Lily and James ignored this behaviour reflacts more positively on them than it does on Snape.

Quote:
I think that is especially seen when Lily tells him to go away and Snape does; even at that time there is no aggressiveness from Snape; he simply respects Lily's wishes, for he knows that she has already as she said chosen her way (James IMO) and Snape accepted it.
Lily is the one who turns and leaves, we don't know what snape did. The scene closes with Lily's departure.


Quote:
If, really Snape wanted to dominate Lily, I doubt that he would have left her alone when she told him to get lost; he would have come again and again and wore her down. Like James did, for example.
Again we din't know that he didn't and we don't know exactly what James did to try and get her to like him. Any theories on this are speculation and that may be fun but it is not canon.

Quote:
I think the moment Snape decided that he would need to come to Dumbledore, he changed. He does not need to be Dumbledore man to change IMO. He became Dumbledore's man, much like Harry did, when he chose to trust Dumbledore on the Hill. But Snape changed the moment he realised his mistake; for it was because of that he decided to beg Voldemort and also come to Dumbledore; to undo it.

From that moment on wards Snape was no longer a DE. Dumbledore helped him by taking him away from Voldemort almost at once by asking him to spy for him; but even if he had not, I don't think Snape would have been a true DE, anymore than Draco was once he started putting the wand down, unable to kill Dumbledore IMO.
I think that Snape changed over a period of years. He may not have been a dyed in the soul DE anymore but I think it took a lot longer than a few moments on that hilltop to change him.

Quote:
I don't understand. Why should Dumbledore set him with this task? When it would have been easier for him to question his Order members to flush out the spy; with his capability and his power and his prowess at Legilimency, surely that task would be easier for Dumbledore than for Snape to poke into DEs flush out the spy; a job in which he would have been caught and Dumbledore would have lost his man.
Now this was speculation on my part. DD asked something of Snape on the hilltop. It makes sense that he asked him for information. In the scene in POA at The Three Broomsticks, when Fudge, Rosemerta, Hagrid, Minerva, and Flitwick are talking about Sirius, Minerva mentions that DD knew about the spy in the Order. To me it just makes sense that DD would ask Snape at that time because it was vitally important if he could find out who the spy was. Makes better sense to me than trying to find out who the spy was vy questioning the Order members. I don't think Peter was going to put his hand up and admit it. It was at least a year after that the Potter's were killed. Snape's a very clever man, I think if he had put his mind to it he could have found out and told DD.



Last edited by eliza101; October 7th, 2009 at 9:33 pm.
  #91  
Old October 9th, 2009, 6:10 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreenWoods
I think that is especially seen when Lily tells him to go away and Snape does; even at that time there is no aggressiveness from Snape; he simply respects Lily's wishes, for he knows that she has already as she said chosen her way (James IMO) and Snape accepted it.
I think it's important that Snape's love for Lily really was unconditional and accepting. The main thing for me is that he never meant her any harm, and that's why he was mortified later when he unknowingly put her in harm's way.

Was Snape jealous of James? Yes, of course! Did Snape have wounded pride and a bruised male ego about losing Lily? Yes, of course.

But I think if there had been other attempts to win her over, his memories would have shown that. Instead, it makes sense that the "worst memory" was the day he had to walk away from her after being rejected in favor of James. I think he avoided her as much as possible after that.


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  #92  
Old October 9th, 2009, 8:16 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I think it's important that Snape's love for Lily really was unconditional and accepting. The main thing for me is that he never meant her any harm, and that's why he was mortified later when he unknowingly put her in harm's way.

Was Snape jealous of James? Yes, of course! Did Snape have wounded pride and a bruised male ego about losing Lily? Yes, of course.

But I think if there had been other attempts to win her over, his memories would have shown that. Instead, it makes sense that the "worst memory" was the day he had to walk away from her after being rejected in favor of James. I think he avoided her as much as possible after that.
In the memories he never shows any of the times that he started an attack on James. We know that he does that because it is stated in canon. Snape does not really have a lot of time to pick and choose what he is going to show. It is more primal than that. He shows the memories that mean the most to him I think. The memories that he treasured, the memories he abhorred. Between when Lily told him it was over and the scene at the hilltop there was a period of what 5-6 years? Nothing in that time was shown and yet this time is important in Snape's life. He becomes a working DE, he attempts to become a spy at Hogwarts, He delivers the prophecy and after a while he learns to his horror the Potters are the family targeted. And then he meets with DD and agrees to do whatever he wants. There is a lot that Snape just does not show, why?
Well it would have slowed the scene down I suppose and for another I guess it is not that important to the plot. My point is when we don't know what happened because it is not on page, one person's supposition is as good as another's as long as that supposition conforms to what we know that the character was generally doing at that period of time. What was Snape doing in that 5-6 years? He was hexing James at every opportunity in school and he became a DE with all that that entails. It does not create for me the picture a nice young man, but that's my opinion.
What is important tfor the story and for the readers is what he did afterwards. I think that is really when Snape's story starts. When the books start.


  #93  
Old October 9th, 2009, 2:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I think that Snape started to change from the moment he found out that Voldemort was targetting the Potters. I don't think he stopped changing until he died. - Which IMO is a great piece of writing because generally people do change all the time. Snape was a very different man when he forst saw Harry in the great Hall to what he was on the hill top with Dumbledore. I also think he was different again in the shack when he looked into Hary's eyes and died. I really do not think that Severus could have lived in such close proximity to Harry and had the additional job of protecting him without it changing him. This was afterall James' and Lily's son, so I really can't see how he would be unaffected by the years Harry spent at Hogwarts. For me it is there on tha page as well. IMO Snape grows as a person enormously throughout the series of books and by that I mean from Harry's first year at Hogwarts to Snape's death in the shack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101
I don't think he changed to the light then,
This sentence somes up some of the problems I have with some of the posts regarding Snape(so please don't take this personally eliza!). What is this light that Snape is supposed to have turned to? I get the impression that when posters make comments like this they are mentally trying to divide the characters in the fiction into 'good' and 'bad' and what they are saying is that Snape wasn't good enough to be considered a 'good' person or a 'good' sider. This is where I have problems because Jo is very careful NOT to divide the characters into good and bad (whether that be 'siders' or people) Each character (with a few exceptions) is an individual; a mixture of good and bad, with their own past history, their own personal hang-ups and their own personal motivations for doing what they do. As soon as you start dividing characters into good and bad you have to create a criteria for that division, and that will depend on the indivdual posters own moral point of view. Within the Harry Potter series itself theree is no defined criteria for who is good and who is bad; there is no obvious 'line in the sand' that indicates this side is good and that side is bad. This to me is deliberate and is summed up in Sirius's words - "The world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters"

IMO it is precisely this sort of judgement that Jo wants her readers to avoid. She wants us to see that characters that Harry likes do stupid hurtful and nasty things, and characters he doesn't like are capable of love, kindness and bravery. IMO Jo wants the readers to examine whether individual actions by any character are good or bad, rather than try and create some moralometre and see who measures up. IMO a big theme of these books is 'Don't judge others' because who are we to pass judgement on anybody else? Ultimately that is what Harry's forgiveness of Snape says to me.


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  #94  
Old October 9th, 2009, 2:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

[quote=CathyWeasley;5433939]
Quote:
I think that Snape started to change from the moment he found out that Voldemort was targetting the Potters. I don't think he stopped changing until he died. - Which IMO is a great piece of writing because generally people do change all the time.
Very true, people are not static and I agree with you Snape changed all the time. What I am not too sure of is what he changed into.


Quote:
This sentence somes up some of the problems I have with some of the posts regarding Snape(so please don't take this personally eliza!). What is this light that Snape is supposed to have turned to? I get the impression that when posters make comments like this they are mentally trying to divide the characters in the fiction into 'good' and 'bad' and what they are saying is that Snape wasn't good enough to be considered a 'good' person or a 'good' sider. This is where I have problems because Jo is very careful NOT to divide the characters into good and bad (whether that be 'siders' or people) Each character (with a few exceptions) is an individual; a mixture of good and bad, with their own past history, their own personal hang-ups and their own personal motivations for doing what they do. As soon as you start dividing characters into good and bad you have to create a criteria for that division, and that will depend on the indivdual posters own moral point of view. Within the Harry Potter series itself theree is no defined criteria for who is good and who is bad; there is no obvious 'line in the sand' that indicates this side is good and that side is bad. This to me is deliberate and is summed up in Sirius's words - "The world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters"
Yeah turning to the light is a bit cheesy, I have to confess I was slightly influenced by TWG in that one, she has in her signature something about Snape winning won the war for the light, no offense TGW, I don't think your Sig is cheesy but must confess I have always used it as a kind of shorthand.
I have always taken the view that Jo wrote that line to mean that a person could be evil without being a Death Eater as the charactors are discussing Umbridge at the time.

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IMO it is precisely this sort of judgement that Jo wants her readers to avoid. She wants us to see that characters that Harry likes do stupid hurtful and nasty things, and characters he doesn't like are capable of love, kindness and bravery. IMO Jo wants the readers to examine whether individual actions by any character are good or bad, rather than try and create some moralometre and see who measures up. IMO a big theme of these books is 'Don't judge others' because who are we to pass judgement on anybody else? Ultimately that is what Harry's forgiveness of Snape says to me.
Although in real life I do subscribe to the tenant that we should not judge others unless we judge them as we would like to be judged, I don't think that can be applied to a book series where there is a definate split between good and evil in said books. We have to judge them and what I think Jo is saying is 'be careful and be merciful'. Judgements have to be carried out in real life and in books. People go wrong and do terrible things. Judgements have to be made and justice carried out. I also subscribe to this tenant. I feel that it is wrong just to say 'I will not judge.' Because if we all did that who would stand for us when we are wronged. And that happens in real life and the books.


  #95  
Old October 9th, 2009, 3:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by CathyWeasley View Post
What is this light that Snape is supposed to have turned to? I get the impression that when posters make comments like this they are mentally trying to divide the characters in the fiction into 'good' and 'bad' and what they are saying is that Snape wasn't good enough to be considered a 'good' person or a 'good' sider. This is where I have problems because Jo is very careful NOT to divide the characters into good and bad (whether that be 'siders' or people) Each character (with a few exceptions) is an individual; a mixture of good and bad, with their own past history, their own personal hang-ups and their own personal motivations for doing what they do. As soon as you start dividing characters into good and bad you have to create a criteria for that division, and that will depend on the indivdual posters own moral point of view. Within the Harry Potter series itself theree is no defined criteria for who is good and who is bad; there is no obvious 'line in the sand' that indicates this side is good and that side is bad. This to me is deliberate and is summed up in Sirius's words - "The world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters"
Exactly how I feel about it! If it is a matter of sides, we can divide people easily. But then the moment Snape said (and meant, as his actions show) "Anything" he was on the "good side", Albus's spy in the "bad" camp. (Along with other "good side" characters like Bartemius Crouch, Sr. or Rufus Scrimgeour, who may also not be fan favorites or nice to Harry.)


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  #96  
Old October 9th, 2009, 3:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Although in real life I do subscribe to the tenant that we should not judge others unless we judge them as we would like to be judged, I don't think that can be applied to a book series where there is a definate split between good and evil in said books. We have to judge them and what I think Jo is saying is 'be careful and be merciful'. Judgements have to be carried out in real life and in books. People go wrong and do terrible things. Judgements have to be made and justice carried out. I also subscribe to this tenant. I feel that it is wrong just to say 'I will not judge.' Because if we all did that who would stand for us when we are wronged. And that happens in real life and the books.
I agree. I think it is as simple as at some point, Snape decided that he was no longer 100% loyal to Voldemort, because the dark lord was planning to carry out an action that Snape disagreed with - so he was willing to work against him on that. But I feel that differs from when Snape's personal ideologies changed - which I feel came later and changed to some degree over time. However, I believe there were negative aspects of Snape's belief system and behavior that he had not addressed by the time he died.


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Old October 9th, 2009, 4:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Exactly how I feel about it! If it is a matter of sides, we can divide people easily. But then the moment Snape said (and meant, as his actions show) "Anything" he was on the "good side", Albus's spy in the "bad" camp. (Along with other "good side" characters like Bartemius Crouch, Sr. or Rufus Scrimgeour, who may also not be fan favorites or nice to Harry.)
But that's it. I don't feel that his actions showed that till much later. Yes, he said anything but did he in his heart believe that he would really be called on to do 'anything.' We don't see him doing much with a willing heart till GOF when he goes back to face LV. He does try and counter jinx Quirrellmort at the Quiddich match but honestly, Harry was almost off his broom. Hermione did a whole lot better and she was 11 years old. Why didn't Snape just 'accidently' knock Quirrellmort over? Yes Snape may not have been 100% LV's man but IMO he was far from working 100% for the good side.


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Old October 9th, 2009, 4:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree. I think it is as simple as at some point, Snape decided that he was no longer 100% loyal to Voldemort, because the dark lord was planning to carry out an action that Snape disagreed with - so he was willing to work against him on that. But I feel that differs from when Snape's personal ideologies changed - which I feel came later and changed to some degree over time.
I agree with you. I also I think the books give us the same way of turning from the Dark side to the light one with a differenet character. The way Snape had changed reminds me so much of Narcissa. She used to be on Voldemort's side, she supported him wholeheartedly. Untill he decided to do something that was against her dear son and husband. First, she decides to seek the help of another person (the same thing Snape had done when Voldemort targeted Lily). Then as the time passes she starts seeing Voldemort's other mistakes, injustice, cruelty, etc. Then, by the end of the book she'd become a very vital factor in Voldemort loss of the war (as was Snape).

Anyways, the main reason I mentioned Narcissa here, is to point out that Snape wasn't Jo's only character to change gradually from the dark side to the light one. Actually I believe that in real life it is impossible for a person to switch sides (between anything) without deliberate thinking, consideration and perhaps some hesitation. Change always comes gradually. IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
However, I believe there were negative aspects of Snape's belief system and behavior that he had not addressed by the time he died.
I also agree with this. I always thought that Snape could've been a different character if he ever attempted to change or address his flaws, imo.
I'm in a bit of a hurry will try to elaborate more, later.


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  #99  
Old October 9th, 2009, 4:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

I think Snape cared about Lilly Evans anyone else could die as far as he was concerned so i don't think of him as a hero just a selfish person who got trapped by Dumbledore into doing something good


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Old October 9th, 2009, 4:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Although in real life I do subscribe to the tenant that we should not judge others unless we judge them as we would like to be judged, I don't think that can be applied to a book series where there is a definate split between good and evil in said books.
So, if we go with your view of the series... we have an evil character living to protect an unknown child and a good character living in order to get an eye for an eye?

Interesting cast, I must say.

Quote:
We have to judge them and what I think Jo is saying is 'be careful and be merciful'. Judgements have to be carried out in real life and in books.
Do we? Did Jo really want to say to kids "Judge people for their past wrongdoings, even if/when they come to see the error of their ways and do their best to make amends, but judge them mercifully", then left them with their own devices to come with the definition of mercy?

If I believed that for one second, I'd ban my own kids from ever reading the books.

Quote:
People go wrong and do terrible things. Judgements have to be made and justice carried out. I also subscribe to this tenant. I feel that it is wrong just to say 'I will not judge.' Because if we all did that who would stand for us when we are wronged. And that happens in real life and the books.
Justice?!
Justice differs across ages, nations and cultures. Extenuating circumstances within the same judicial system are defined and re-defined by the decade, some by the year. And we are to attempt meting it out based on our interpretation of a fictional piece of writing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandi View Post
I think Snape cared about Lilly Evans anyone else could die as far as he was concerned so i don't think of him as a hero just a selfish person who got trapped by Dumbledore into doing something good
Only a painfully stupid selfish person would spend two decades 'trapped into doing something good'. I imagine Jo intended Snape to be many things... but I doubt 'stupid' was one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
But I feel that differs from when Snape's personal ideologies changed - which I feel came later and changed to some degree over time. However, I believe there were negative aspects of Snape's belief system and behavior that he had not addressed by the time he died.
What do we know of Snape's personal ideologies? He used the term 'mudblood' and expressed negative feelings of varying intensity for Petunia, his father and the Marauders. But does that translate into ideology?

The last sentence, however, I agree with.


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